How Easy - Linux

This is a discussion on How Easy - Linux ; Moshe Goldfarb (flatfish) in real life Gary Stewart http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2008/...arb-troll.html http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2007/...ish-troll.html Traits: * Nym shifting (see below) * Self confessed thief and proud of it * Homophobic * Racist * Habitual liar * Frequently cross posts replies to other non-Linux related ...

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Thread: How Easy

  1. Re: How Easy

    Moshe Goldfarb (flatfish) in real life Gary Stewart

    http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2008/...arb-troll.html
    http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2007/...ish-troll.html

    Traits:

    * Nym shifting (see below)
    * Self confessed thief and proud of it
    * Homophobic
    * Racist
    * Habitual liar
    * Frequently cross posts replies to other non-Linux related newsgroups
    * Frequently cross posts articles originally not posted to COLA

    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  2. Re: How Easy

    skydweller wrote:

    > I do all of the above (except the games part), and more, regularly, on
    > this here little desktop box (running Mandriva Spring 2008 x86-64).
    > For some odd reason, it refuses to fall down. Or freeze.


    Sample of one!

    Meanwhile:

    855 posts about Feisty 7.04 freezing up
    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=412125

    648 posts about Gutsy 7.10 freezing up
    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...ghlight=freeze

    121 posts about Hardy 8.04 freezing up
    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...ghlight=freeze





    > Work is another story. That box usually lasts about 3 days between
    > reboots,


    I go months between voluntary XP reboots.

    Linux requires a reboot every 30-40 seconds for some people:
    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...freezes&page=2




    > is subject to random application freezes (usually Outlook),


    But never with Linux, of course. Linux is perfect!

    (well, except for those nasty hundreds of thousands of forum and 'Net posts
    about random and total system lockups)




    > and drops network connections on a regular basis.


    But that could never happen with Linux, of course.

    (well, except for those Results 1 - 10 of about 2,710,000 for Linux dropped
    network connection)





  3. Re: How Easy

    JEDIDIAH wrote:
    > On 2008-05-28, DFS wrote:


    >> Then I guess the majority of PC hardware out there is incompatible,
    >> since the random and total system freezes experienced by so many
    >> Ubuntu users occur across all manner of CPUs, mobos, videocards,
    >> routers, wireless cards, USB devices, etc.

    >
    > Compile us a sorted list.



    Compile it yourself. Hundreds of the posts found here...

    >> 86 pages of discussion about Feisty 7.04 freezing up
    >> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=412125
    >>
    >> 65 pages of discussion about Gutsy 7.10 freezing up
    >> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...ghlight=freeze
    >>
    >> 12 pages of discussion about Hardy 8.04 freezing up
    >> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...ghlight=freeze


    ....detail exactly which hardware Linux chokes on.




  4. Re: How Easy

    On May 28, 7:42 am, "DFS" wrote:
    > ness...@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:
    > > I needed to convert the CR/LF combination of some old dos files to LF
    > > for use under Linux, so I typed dos2unix. Turns out it's not
    > > installed on my Ubuntu 7.10 system, but it was nice enough to tell me,

    >
    > > The program 'dos2unix' is currently not installed. You can install it
    > > by typing:
    > > sudo apt-get install tofrodos

    >
    > > So I did this, and voila! In about 30 seconds, I have it installed,
    > > and files converted. How easy!
    > > Of course I could have searched packages for the program I wanted, but
    > > Ubuntu saved me the trouble.

    >
    > > And BTW, Ubuntu has never crashed on me, either on this system or any
    > > of the other 4 systems on which I have it installed.

    >
    > That's because you don't do much with it. Start running games and media
    > players and playing music and building spreadsheets and interfacing it to
    > databases and running it on a wireless networks and using external devices.
    >
    > Use it like people use Windows, and watch Linux fall right down.


    I do use it for media players and music and I do build spreadsheets
    and I do use external devices.

    I don't run games or databases or wireless.

    I do use it both as a mail server and a web server, which I can't even
    do with a Windows desktop.
    And it never crashes. Neither did the Suse or RedHat distro I used
    before that.

  5. Re: How Easy

    On Thu, 29 May 2008 10:39:49 -0700, nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:

    > On May 28, 7:42 am, "DFS" wrote:
    >> ness...@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:
    >> > I needed to convert the CR/LF combination of some old dos files to LF
    >> > for use under Linux, so I typed dos2unix. Turns out it's not
    >> > installed on my Ubuntu 7.10 system, but it was nice enough to tell me,

    >>
    >> > The program 'dos2unix' is currently not installed. You can install it
    >> > by typing:
    >> > sudo apt-get install tofrodos

    >>
    >> > So I did this, and voila! In about 30 seconds, I have it installed,
    >> > and files converted. How easy!
    >> > Of course I could have searched packages for the program I wanted, but
    >> > Ubuntu saved me the trouble.

    >>
    >> > And BTW, Ubuntu has never crashed on me, either on this system or any
    >> > of the other 4 systems on which I have it installed.

    >>
    >> That's because you don't do much with it. Start running games and media
    >> players and playing music and building spreadsheets and interfacing it
    >> to databases and running it on a wireless networks and using external
    >> devices.
    >>
    >> Use it like people use Windows, and watch Linux fall right down.

    >
    > I do use it for media players and music and I do build spreadsheets and I
    > do use external devices.


    Same here, with Mandriva (now my main distro on all machines), PCLinuxOS,
    & Kubuntu 7.10.

    > I don't run games or databases or wireless.


    I have a database, family ancestry back to the 1600s.

    > I do use it both as a mail server and a web server, which I can't even do
    > with a Windows desktop.
    > And it never crashes. Neither did the Suse or RedHat distro I used before
    > that.


    Well two of my machines did, when I was running Kubuntu, but they were
    *hardware* problems (bad HDD on one, & video card went south on another).
    Otherwise steady as a rock.

    --
    Mandriva 2008.1 64-bit.
    This message was sent from a
    computer which is guaranteed
    100% free of the M$ Windoze virus.

  6. Re: How Easy

    On 2008-05-29, nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:
    > On May 28, 7:42 am, "DFS" wrote:
    >> ness...@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:
    >> > I needed to convert the CR/LF combination of some old dos files to LF
    >> > for use under Linux, so I typed dos2unix. Turns out it's not
    >> > installed on my Ubuntu 7.10 system, but it was nice enough to tell me,

    >>
    >> > The program 'dos2unix' is currently not installed. You can install it
    >> > by typing:
    >> > sudo apt-get install tofrodos

    >>
    >> > So I did this, and voila! In about 30 seconds, I have it installed,
    >> > and files converted. How easy!
    >> > Of course I could have searched packages for the program I wanted, but
    >> > Ubuntu saved me the trouble.

    >>
    >> > And BTW, Ubuntu has never crashed on me, either on this system or any
    >> > of the other 4 systems on which I have it installed.

    >>
    >> That's because you don't do much with it. Start running games and media
    >> players and playing music and building spreadsheets and interfacing it to
    >> databases and running it on a wireless networks and using external devices.
    >>
    >> Use it like people use Windows, and watch Linux fall right down.

    >
    > I do use it for media players and music and I do build spreadsheets
    > and I do use external devices.


    I do all of this. I also run a web and mail server and have some
    home grown PHP apps. I also do video editing. kdenlive looks like it
    will have a very promising future. avidemux is also pretty handy.

    >
    > I don't run games or databases or wireless.


    I've done both with Linux. This is an issue strictly of 3rd party
    support.

    >
    > I do use it both as a mail server and a web server, which I can't even
    > do with a Windows desktop.
    > And it never crashes. Neither did the Suse or RedHat distro I used
    > before that.



    --
    Oracle... can't live with it... |||
    / | \
    can't just replace it with postgres...

    Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
    ----------------------------------------------------------
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  7. Re: How Easy

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu

    wrote
    on Thu, 29 May 2008 10:39:49 -0700 (PDT)
    <1877e5a8-86a1-4e19-89b4-f157655ec7c4@w8g2000prd.googlegroups.com>:
    > On May 28, 7:42 am, "DFS" wrote:
    >> ness...@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:
    >> > I needed to convert the CR/LF combination of some old dos files to LF
    >> > for use under Linux, so I typed dos2unix. Turns out it's not
    >> > installed on my Ubuntu 7.10 system, but it was nice enough to tell me,

    >>
    >> > The program 'dos2unix' is currently not installed. You can install it
    >> > by typing:
    >> > sudo apt-get install tofrodos

    >>
    >> > So I did this, and voila! In about 30 seconds, I have it installed,
    >> > and files converted. How easy!
    >> > Of course I could have searched packages for the program I wanted, but
    >> > Ubuntu saved me the trouble.

    >>
    >> > And BTW, Ubuntu has never crashed on me, either on this system or any
    >> > of the other 4 systems on which I have it installed.

    >>
    >> That's because you don't do much with it. Start running games and media
    >> players and playing music and building spreadsheets and interfacing it to
    >> databases and running it on a wireless networks and using external devices.
    >>
    >> Use it like people use Windows, and watch Linux fall right down.

    >
    > I do use it for media players and music and I do build spreadsheets
    > and I do use external devices.
    >
    > I don't run games or databases or wireless.
    >
    > I do use it both as a mail server and a web server, which I can't even
    > do with a Windows desktop.


    Not sure about the mail server but there is a Windows
    Apache variant. No doubt it's intended primarily for
    prototyping.

    I suspect one could compile sendmail or exim for Windows
    as well, using Cygwin, but one has to ask at some point,
    "Why bother?". Might as well put a missile launcher
    on a go-kart as opposed to a Jeep or its modern Hummvee
    counterpart.

    But ah, the body of the go-kart is so prettily painted
    with glitter, is it not? :-)

    > And it never crashes. Neither did the Suse or RedHat distro I used
    > before that.


    Dare I mention that the go-kart's steering is a little...erratic? ;-)

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    "640K ought to be enough for anybody."
    - allegedly said by Bill Gates, 1981, but somebody had to make this up!
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  8. Re: How Easy (is not in the linux dictionary)

    Ezekiel wrote:
    > wrote in message
    > news:ce230ae7-1f8a-4dad-a8ae-d8ccccbdf52d@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
    >> I needed to convert the CR/LF combination of some old dos files to LF
    >> for use under Linux, so I typed dos2unix. Turns out it's not
    >> installed on my Ubuntu 7.10 system, but it was nice enough to tell me,
    >>
    >> The program 'dos2unix' is currently not installed. You can install it
    >> by typing:
    >> sudo apt-get install tofrodos
    >>
    >> So I did this, and voila! In about 30 seconds, I have it installed,
    >> and files converted. How easy!
    >> Of course I could have searched packages for the program I wanted, but
    >> Ubuntu saved me the trouble.
    >>
    >> And BTW, Ubuntu has never crashed on me, either on this system or any
    >> of the other 4 systems on which I have it installed. And I've been
    >> using Ubuntu between 6 months and 18 months (depending on the machine,
    >> not all same version of Ubuntu).

    >
    >
    > You idiots just don't "get it" do you. This is a perfect example of why
    > linux is nowhere near ready for the masses.
    >
    > - "I needed to convert the CR/LF combination of some old dos files to LF for
    > use under Linux..."
    >
    > Go out there and explain to the average Joe what the difference between
    > "CR/LF" and "CR" is. It's certainly something that 99% of computer users
    > *never* think about. They press on their keyboard and it's simply
    > the end of the current line. Normal people don't want to care or have to
    > know why some OS's use CR and other OS's use CRLF. They sure as hell don't
    > want to have to "convert" their CR/LF files to CR in order to use them on
    > linux.


    Joe Public can't even set up Windows, so your logic is far from reasonable.

  9. Re: How Easy (is not in the linux dictionary)

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Ezekiel

    wrote
    on Wed, 28 May 2008 11:00:25 -0400
    :
    >
    > wrote in message
    > news:ce230ae7-1f8a-4dad-a8ae-d8ccccbdf52d@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
    >>I needed to convert the CR/LF combination of some old dos files to LF
    >> for use under Linux, so I typed dos2unix. Turns out it's not
    >> installed on my Ubuntu 7.10 system, but it was nice enough to tell me,
    >>
    >> The program 'dos2unix' is currently not installed. You can install it
    >> by typing:
    >> sudo apt-get install tofrodos
    >>
    >> So I did this, and voila! In about 30 seconds, I have it installed,
    >> and files converted. How easy!
    >> Of course I could have searched packages for the program I wanted, but
    >> Ubuntu saved me the trouble.
    >>
    >> And BTW, Ubuntu has never crashed on me, either on this system or any
    >> of the other 4 systems on which I have it installed. And I've been
    >> using Ubuntu between 6 months and 18 months (depending on the machine,
    >> not all same version of Ubuntu).

    >
    >
    > You idiots just don't "get it" do you. This is a perfect example of why
    > linux is nowhere near ready for the masses.
    >
    > - "I needed to convert the CR/LF combination of some old dos files to LF for
    > use under Linux..."


    Oh, but it gets worse. Bash will *NOT* correctly process
    a file[*] that starts with

    #!/bin/sh^M

    (where ^M indicates an otherwise hidden carriage return [%]).

    That's right, you heard me, COLA Linuxvocates.

    $ ./helloworld.sh
    bash: ./helloworld.sh: /bin/sh^M: bad interpreter: No such file or directory
    $

    Now explain *why* that error to a non-technie type. (The techies
    should get it quickly enough, though I'll admit to wondering why
    Linux and/or bash doesn't strip that carriage return. Is this
    a POSIX requirement?)

    The good news: most Unix editors don't put that offending
    ^M on new files, and I for one know the difference between
    ^J and ^M^J (and the character sequence '^' 'M' '^' 'J', for
    that matter), since I'm an old Unix head anyway; people
    can and do learn.

    The bad news: it's not at all obvious when vim shows
    [dos] that one has to change the fileformat to unix for
    shell scripts. Also, tools such as Visual SourceSafe
    will very helpfully put the carriage returns back in for
    you, presumably under the assumption that everyone wants
    it there -- an issue for those in corporate environments
    that use that rather popular source code management system
    for Unix shell scripts and text files. (Microsoft *did*
    get it right, pedantically enough -- but thereby annoyed
    the hell out of everybody. Of course carriage return is
    a bit of an anachronism anyway; when was the last time one
    saw an electric typewriter with an actual carriage?)

    I'll have to see what Cygnus bash.exe does with such manglings.
    I'm not hopeful.

    And then there's the subtleties in bash regarding the following
    constructs. Assume the command line

    $ ./helloworld.sh "I am a" "COLA newsgroup
    reader" "" "And I'm smart, too!"

    (Yes, one can do that; Bash doesn't mind; neither does sh.
    Note the multiple spaces between words.)

    Within helloworld.sh:

    $* returns 10 tokens (if one uses it in, say, a for loop).
    $@ also returns 10 tokens.
    "$*" returns 1 token, with spaces squished.
    "$@" returns 4 tokens, with spaces not squished. One of
    those tokens is the empty string; another contains a newline.
    This is arguably the most correct.

    If one furthemore uses

    for i in "$@"

    then

    echo $i
    will squish the spaces (including newlines).

    echo "$i"
    will output things literally, including newlines.

    echo '$i'
    just echoes the literal text $i.

    echo \$i
    also echoes the literal text $i -- useful in certain contexts.

    echo $$i
    might echo 671i...the 671 being the shell's process ID.

    Very subtle differences if one's not paying attention during
    scripting. Note that newlines are perfectly legitimate in
    filenames, though rarely used for obvious reasons; a script
    unaware of Unix subtleties can quickly get into trouble.
    Even blanks in filenames are problematic.

    The good news: the utilities basename and dirname still work,
    though one has to use constructs such as

    dirn="`dirname "$i"`"

    instead of

    dirn=`dirname $i`

    to get the spaces/newlines/etc. exactly right.
    That quote-within-quote looks very weird to me personally.

    At that, this situation, bad as it is, is a slight
    improvement over Windows constructs such as

    C:\> CD C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data

    C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data>

    Good thing NTFS doesn't allow those newlines. Does it allow
    contiguous spaces, though?

    Also, dare I mention that

    CD \\storagesystem\share\directory\path

    still doesn't work in XP? Maybe Vista's fixed it by
    now...but I have my doubts; Powershell may be the only
    option.

    I can't say I've identified the conditions precisely, but
    under certain conditions (probably under Win95 more than
    XP, nowadays) one might get a current directory more like

    C:\DOCUME~1\ALLUSE~1\APPLIC~1

    or some such mangling, thanks to short/long conversion.

    And then there's Microsoft's innovative C:. Amiga probably
    patented SYS: ; Mac has its own ideas, especially the
    older models.

    No, you don't want to know what VMS does. Trust me. You don't. [+]

    The one and only time I saw a PR1ME in operation, I saw
    a path with '>' as a delimiter. Interesting, to say the least.

    >
    > Go out there and explain to the average Joe what the difference between
    > "CR/LF" and "CR" is. It's certainly something that 99% of computer users
    > *never* think about. They press on their keyboard and it's simply
    > the end of the current line. Normal people don't want to care or have to
    > know why some OS's use CR and other OS's use CRLF. They sure as hell don't
    > want to have to "convert" their CR/LF files to CR in order to use them on
    > linux.


    Correct.

    >
    >
    > - "so I typed dos2unix."


    Where? Oh yeah, fire up the terminal emulator first.
    That, hopefully, is fairly obvious. Just typing in dos2unix
    at Konqueror's backscreen or Nautilus will do nothing interesting,
    unless the focus happens to be in a text widget either Konqueror
    or Nautilus is displaying at the time.

    >
    > So what you're saying is that the apps you use are too stupid to figure this
    > out and do the right thing automatically. So you have to once again go to
    > the command line, 'cd' into the correct directory and know that your need to
    > run a CLI application named "dos2unix" in order to "convert" the files
    > before you can actually use them.


    Worse than that. 'dos2unix' is *NOT* standard Unix.
    One might have it preinstalled in a distro, if one's lucky.
    (Gentoo does not; it's not a required part of its stage3
    kit. Of course it's easily emerged.)

    >
    > Oh yeah... this is all real easy for the average Joe to understand and do.
    > When **** don't work most "average people" will automatically think... "I
    > bet it's a problem with lines being terminated with a CR/LF instead of a CR.
    > I'll just jump right into the command line, 'cd' into the correct directory
    > and run the "dos2unix" command in order to fix it."


    Well, given bash's error message, he'll at least have half
    a clue that control-M is involved. Of course he might get
    a little confused and start looking for the pattern /^M/,
    which has its own issues (it will stop at the first line
    which begins with a capital M).

    >
    > Suuuuurrrre. That's exactly what "average people" are going to do. What
    > horror stories like this I'm actually surprised that the linux desktop
    > marketshare is as high as 0.6% - it should be half that.
    >


    It *is* half that, according to some metrics. The last
    quoted number Winvocates threw at us was 0.23% or 0.25%,
    before 0.6% got bandied about last month or so.

    More accurate measurements suggest it might be as high
    as 6%, but the exact number may never be known because of
    emulators, multiboots, and multiple machines.

    For its part Firefox is as high as 30%, mostly on Windows boxes
    where Internet Explorer has been usurped (but not replaced).

    Will the real usage percentage please stand up? ;-)

    >
    >
    >
    > ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **


    [%] To replicate this test case, one can create a script
    in the normal fashion (using any editor he likes), then
    in vim ':set fileformat=dos' and write it out as usual.
    [*] One could endlessly quibble here as to whether it should.

    [+] It's an acquired taste, and DCL does give a number of
    utilities to handle it properly, so it's not all bad.

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    /dev/signature: Not a text file
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  10. Re: How Easy

    Verily I say unto thee, that The Ghost In The Machine spake thusly:

    > Or one can use tr:
    >
    > ~]$ tr -d '^M' < foobar.txt > foobar_out.txt
    >
    > (apparently "tr '^M' ''" doesn't work).


    Try: tr -d '\r' instead.

    > So many choices! :-)


    Yup.

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | 'When it comes to knowledge, "ownership" just doesn't make sense'
    | ~ Cory Doctorow, The Guardian. http://tinyurl.com/22bgx8
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.23.8-63.fc8
    04:15:08 up 161 days, 50 min, 5 users, load average: 0.58, 0.52, 0.54

  11. Re: How Easy

    Verily I say unto thee, that The Ghost In The Machine spake thusly:
    > In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Homer


    >> ~]$ file foobar.txt
    >> foobar.txt: ASCII text, with CRLF line terminators
    >> ~]$ perl -p -i -e 's/\r$//' foobar.txt
    >> ~]$ file Desktop/foobar.txt

    ^^^^^^^
    >> foobar.txt: ASCII text


    Hmm, how did that happen?

    Weird.

    Must've copied from the wrong terminal.

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | 'When it comes to knowledge, "ownership" just doesn't make sense'
    | ~ Cory Doctorow, The Guardian. http://tinyurl.com/22bgx8
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.23.8-63.fc8
    05:10:14 up 161 days, 1:46, 5 users, load average: 2.80, 1.16, 0.67

  12. Re: How Easy (is not in the linux dictionary)

    On Fri, 30 May 2008 01:51:01 +0100, Cork Soaker wrote:

    > Ezekiel wrote:
    >> wrote in message
    >> news:ce230ae7-1f8a-4dad-a8ae-d8ccccbdf52d@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
    >>> I needed to convert the CR/LF combination of some old dos files to LF
    >>> for use under Linux, so I typed dos2unix. Turns out it's not installed
    >>> on my Ubuntu 7.10 system, but it was nice enough to tell me,
    >>>
    >>> The program 'dos2unix' is currently not installed. You can install it
    >>> by typing:
    >>> sudo apt-get install tofrodos
    >>>
    >>> So I did this, and voila! In about 30 seconds, I have it installed,
    >>> and files converted. How easy!
    >>> Of course I could have searched packages for the program I wanted, but
    >>> Ubuntu saved me the trouble.
    >>>
    >>> And BTW, Ubuntu has never crashed on me, either on this system or any
    >>> of the other 4 systems on which I have it installed. And I've been
    >>> using Ubuntu between 6 months and 18 months (depending on the machine,
    >>> not all same version of Ubuntu).

    >>
    >>
    >> You idiots just don't "get it" do you. This is a perfect example of why
    >> linux is nowhere near ready for the masses.
    >>
    >> - "I needed to convert the CR/LF combination of some old dos files to LF
    >> for use under Linux..."
    >>
    >> Go out there and explain to the average Joe what the difference between
    >> "CR/LF" and "CR" is. It's certainly something that 99% of computer users
    >> *never* think about. They press on their keyboard and it's
    >> simply the end of the current line. Normal people don't want to care or
    >> have to know why some OS's use CR and other OS's use CRLF. They sure as
    >> hell don't want to have to "convert" their CR/LF files to CR in order to
    >> use them on linux.

    >
    > Joe Public can't even set up Windows, so your logic is far from
    > reasonable.


    Quite. And a lot of windoze users have problems installing applications,
    let alone Windows itself.

    --
    Mandriva 2008.1 64-bit.
    This message was sent from a
    computer which is guaranteed
    100% free of the M$ Windoze virus.

  13. Re: How Easy (is not in the linux dictionary)

    Verily I say unto thee, that The Ghost In The Machine spake thusly:

    > Oh, but it gets worse. Bash will *NOT* correctly process a file[*]
    > that starts with
    >
    > #!/bin/sh^M
    >
    > (where ^M indicates an otherwise hidden carriage return [%]).
    >
    > That's right, you heard me, COLA Linuxvocates.
    >
    > $ ./helloworld.sh
    > bash: ./helloworld.sh: /bin/sh^M: bad interpreter: No such file or
    > directory
    > $
    >
    > Now explain *why* that error to a non-technie type.


    Because CR+LF is an archaic method of generating a newline, that may
    have been necessary on Teletype machines in the 1800's, but is
    completely redundant on modern computers, and therefore CR should
    rightfully be considered an illegal character.

    Interpreters could handle it more gracefully, by merely ignoring it
    (some do), but once you start travelling down that road things become
    tricky. At what point do you stop arbitrarily ignoring characters you
    don't like, and finally inform the user that there's something wrong?

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | 'When it comes to knowledge, "ownership" just doesn't make sense'
    | ~ Cory Doctorow, The Guardian. http://tinyurl.com/22bgx8
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.23.8-63.fc8
    08:38:53 up 161 days, 5:14, 6 users, load average: 0.25, 0.31, 0.40

  14. Re: How Easy (is not in the linux dictionary)

    On 2008-05-28 17:00, Ezekiel wrote:

    >
    > Go out there and explain to the average Joe what the difference between
    > "CR/LF" and "CR" is. It's certainly something that 99% of computer users
    > *never* think about. They press on their keyboard and it's simply
    > the end of the current line. Normal people don't want to care or have to
    > know why some OS's use CR and other OS's use CRLF. They sure as hell don't
    > want to have to "convert" their CR/LF files to CR in order to use them on
    > linux.
    >


    No, the average Joe or Jane using windows don't understand why there is only one
    line of text, and ask some of us to help them.

    An average monkey know the same about ascii codes as a windows user,
    but when they get hacked they get the blame for guessing the wrong answer
    on a popup from some (for them) unknown program that warn about virus.

    So, sometimes they do don't need to know anything, and sometimes they must know
    enough to make a choice where wrong action is fatal.

    Face it, Linux is another level where the user learn more, and can take over
    the control of his/her own computer.

    nessuno described a feature useful for his level, and not useful for the average
    windows user level, while KDE right click, action, convert is on the level you
    talk about.

    /bb

  15. Re: How Easy (is not in the linux dictionary)

    >Trolling dip**** wrote:
    >>
    >> They sure as hell don't
    >> want to have to "convert" their CR/LF files to CR in order to use them on
    >> linux.


    What's your point, dip****? "Windows good, Linux bad"? Because the
    need to convert like this implies nothing of the kind, obviously.


  16. Re: How Easy (is not in the linux dictionary)

    On 2008-05-28, Ezekiel wrote:
    >
    > wrote in message
    > news:ce230ae7-1f8a-4dad-a8ae-d8ccccbdf52d@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
    >>I needed to convert the CR/LF combination of some old dos files to LF
    >> for use under Linux, so I typed dos2unix. Turns out it's not
    >> installed on my Ubuntu 7.10 system, but it was nice enough to tell me,
    >>
    >> The program 'dos2unix' is currently not installed. You can install it
    >> by typing:
    >> sudo apt-get install tofrodos
    >>
    >> So I did this, and voila! In about 30 seconds, I have it installed,
    >> and files converted. How easy!
    >> Of course I could have searched packages for the program I wanted, but
    >> Ubuntu saved me the trouble.
    >>
    >> And BTW, Ubuntu has never crashed on me, either on this system or any
    >> of the other 4 systems on which I have it installed. And I've been
    >> using Ubuntu between 6 months and 18 months (depending on the machine,
    >> not all same version of Ubuntu).

    >
    >
    > You idiots just don't "get it" do you. This is a perfect example of why
    > linux is nowhere near ready for the masses.
    >
    > - "I needed to convert the CR/LF combination of some old dos files to LF for
    > use under Linux..."
    >
    > Go out there and explain to the average Joe what the difference between
    > "CR/LF" and "CR" is. It's certainly something that 99% of computer users
    > *never* think about. They press on their keyboard and it's simply


    It's pretty trivial to explain actually.

    Tell them to have a MacOS using friend send them a text file.
    Have them open it in Notepad and note the ensuing mess.

    Dunno why a Linux user would bother with the "conversion really".

    It's a minor nuissance under Linux.

    The reverse under Windows is a little more interesting.

    > the end of the current line. Normal people don't want to care or have to
    > know why some OS's use CR and other OS's use CRLF. They sure as hell don't
    > want to have to "convert" their CR/LF files to CR in order to use them on
    > linux.
    >
    >
    > - "so I typed dos2unix."
    >
    > So what you're saying is that the apps you use are too stupid to figure this
    > out and do the right thing automatically. So you have to once again go to


    ....yeah, like the basic ones on Windows.

    [deletia]

    Quit blathering about something you obviously have no experience with.

    --
    On the subject of kilobyte being "redefined" to mean 1000 bytes...

    When I was a wee lad, I was taught that SI units were |||
    meant to be computationally convenient rather than just / | \
    arbitrarily assigned.

    Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    http://www.usenet.com

  17. Re: How Easy

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Homer

    wrote
    on Fri, 30 May 2008 05:10:32 +0100
    :
    > Verily I say unto thee, that The Ghost In The Machine spake thusly:
    >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Homer

    >
    >>> ~]$ file foobar.txt
    >>> foobar.txt: ASCII text, with CRLF line terminators
    >>> ~]$ perl -p -i -e 's/\r$//' foobar.txt
    >>> ~]$ file Desktop/foobar.txt

    > ^^^^^^^
    >>> foobar.txt: ASCII text

    >
    > Hmm, how did that happen?
    >
    > Weird.
    >
    > Must've copied from the wrong terminal.
    >


    I must be losing my eyeball; I missed that too. ;-)

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Useless C++ Programming Idea #889123:
    std::vector<...> v; for(int i = 0; i < v.size(); i++) v.erase(v.begin() + i);
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  18. Re: How Easy (is not in the linux dictionary)

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Cork Soaker

    wrote
    on Fri, 30 May 2008 01:51:01 +0100
    :
    > Ezekiel wrote:
    >> wrote in message
    >> news:ce230ae7-1f8a-4dad-a8ae-d8ccccbdf52d@b5g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
    >>> I needed to convert the CR/LF combination of some old dos files to LF
    >>> for use under Linux, so I typed dos2unix. Turns out it's not
    >>> installed on my Ubuntu 7.10 system, but it was nice enough to tell me,
    >>>
    >>> The program 'dos2unix' is currently not installed. You can install it
    >>> by typing:
    >>> sudo apt-get install tofrodos
    >>>
    >>> So I did this, and voila! In about 30 seconds, I have it installed,
    >>> and files converted. How easy!
    >>> Of course I could have searched packages for the program I wanted, but
    >>> Ubuntu saved me the trouble.
    >>>
    >>> And BTW, Ubuntu has never crashed on me, either on this system or any
    >>> of the other 4 systems on which I have it installed. And I've been
    >>> using Ubuntu between 6 months and 18 months (depending on the machine,
    >>> not all same version of Ubuntu).

    >>
    >>
    >> You idiots just don't "get it" do you. This is a perfect example of why
    >> linux is nowhere near ready for the masses.
    >>
    >> - "I needed to convert the CR/LF combination of some old dos files to LF for
    >> use under Linux..."
    >>
    >> Go out there and explain to the average Joe what the difference between
    >> "CR/LF" and "CR" is. It's certainly something that 99% of computer users
    >> *never* think about. They press on their keyboard and it's simply
    >> the end of the current line. Normal people don't want to care or have to
    >> know why some OS's use CR and other OS's use CRLF. They sure as hell don't
    >> want to have to "convert" their CR/LF files to CR in order to use them on
    >> linux.

    >
    > Joe Public can't even set up Windows, so your logic is far from reasonable.


    Joe Public doesn't need to, in most cases; the OEMs do it all for him.
    And of course since the OEMs are encouraged to sell Windows, they
    set up Windows....

    Darn this enterprise/sales system. ;-)

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Useless C++ Programming Idea #889123:
    std::vector<...> v; for(int i = 0; i < v.size(); i++) v.erase(v.begin() + i);
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  19. Re: How Easy (is not in the linux dictionary)


    >
    > Joe Public can't even set up Windows, so your logic is far from reasonable.


    Ezekiel is showing his frustration level. Maybe he's worried that
    flatfish will find a new sockpuppet. Or maybe go back to an old one,
    like LITTLE PEDRO.

  20. Re: How Easy (is not in the linux dictionary)

    For the record, the DOS files were created by a Fortran program I
    wrote in 1991 on a DOS machine, which a C program I wrote on Linux
    much later is trying to read.

    I used Microsoft products while they were under DOS, but never wanted
    to migrate to Windows. DOS was ok, at least you had the source code.

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