[News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African) - Linux

This is a discussion on [News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African) - Linux ; -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The South Africa Bureau of Standards submits an official appeal to ISO and IEC against OOXML ,----[ Quote ] | At least one National Body has submitted a formal complaint to ISO and IEC. ...

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Thread: [News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African)

  1. [News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African)

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    The South Africa Bureau of Standards submits an official appeal to ISO and IEC
    against OOXML

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | At least one National Body has submitted a formal complaint to ISO and IEC.
    | South Africa was rather vocal about the Fast Tracking process of OOXML from
    | day one.
    `----

    http://www.openmalaysiablog.com/2008...uth-afric.html


    Recent:

    South Africa adopts ODF as a national standard

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | The South African Bureau of Standards (SABS) on Friday approved the Open
    | Document Format (ODF) as an official national South African standard. The
    | adoption of ODF by South Africa opens the way for the businesses and
    | government to adopt ODF more widely in their processes.
    `----

    http://www.tectonic.co.za/?p=2365


    Embrace the Reality and Logic of Choice

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | Another neo-colonialist press release from Microsoft's CompTIA lobbying arm,
    | this time inveighing against South Africa's adoption of ODF as a national
    | standard. One way to point out the absurdity of their logic is to replace the
    | reference to ODF with references to any other useful standard that a
    | government might adopt, like electrical standards.
    `----

    http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/04/...of-choice.html
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  2. Re: [News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African)

    Roy Schestowitz wrote:

    > The South Africa Bureau of Standards submits an official appeal to ISO
    > and IEC against OOXML
    >
    > ,----[ Quote ]
    > | At least one National Body has submitted a formal complaint to ISO
    > | and IEC. South Africa was rather vocal about the Fast Tracking
    > | process of OOXML from day one.
    > `----
    >
    > http://www.openmalaysiablog.com/2008...uth-afric.html


    Ooops!
    Sorry about that - just posted the same thing!
    Ah well, better twice than not at all, but better still to
    read-before-write?:-)

    So what's happens next (procedure-wise)?
    Does this mean that the appeal has to be resolved at least before OOXML
    is actually approved?



  3. Re: [News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African)

    ____/ bbgruff on Friday 23 May 2008 16:41 : \____

    > Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >
    >> The South Africa Bureau of Standards submits an official appeal to ISO
    >> and IEC against OOXML
    >>
    >> ,----[ Quote ]
    >> | At least one National Body has submitted a formal complaint to ISO
    >> | and IEC. South Africa was rather vocal about the Fast Tracking
    >> | process of OOXML from day one.
    >> `----
    >>
    >> http://www.openmalaysiablog.com/2008...uth-afric.html

    >
    > Ooops!
    > Sorry about that - just posted the same thing!


    Oh. :-) Twice can be better, unless it is Munchkin spew that's against the
    charter anyway. It's not a contest.

    > Ah well, better twice than not at all, but better still to
    > read-before-write?:-)


    It can be hard, albeit depending on one's news reader and reading
    habits/frequency. It's bound to happen. Let it.

    > So what's happens next (procedure-wise)?


    I'm just hoping that other countries will jump on this new boat and endorse the
    complaint. Microsoft gave SA a lot of grief and Norway will be fighting along
    with BECTA, Denmark's formal complaints, those who take the BSI to court, the
    EU commission that studies the abuse in many countries (Germany, Poland, UK
    and more). It was bound to happen. I knew about this last month.

    At the end of the day, this looks bad for Microsoft. ISO stamp isn't granted
    until 2 months of appeal are due (June 2nd). Denmark could extend the deadline
    further. It's a case of uncertainty, which together with the ODF announcement
    will leave people confused. Well, until ISO gets some good toppling anyway...

    > Does this mean that the appeal has to be resolved at least before OOXML
    > is actually approved?


    The whole thing is a big mess. With the EU still investigating the stuffing,
    the whole legitimacy of the process is in the gutter. In fact, OOXML's BRM
    convenor took a little spit on the process a few days ago, saying they need to
    start from scratch.

    Microsoft ruined ISO. Maybe it serves it well.

    --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | "My signature is never intended to be offensive"
    http://Schestowitz.com | Open Prospects | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    Tasks: 160 total, 1 running, 159 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie
    http://iuron.com - knowledge engine, not a search engine

  4. Re: [News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African)

    Roy Schestowitz wrote:

    > The whole thing is a big mess. With the EU still investigating the
    > stuffing, the whole legitimacy of the process is in the gutter. In
    > fact, OOXML's BRM convenor took a little spit on the process a few
    > days ago, saying they need to start from scratch.


    Thanks for your response, Roy - and I was quite forgetting the situation
    within the ISO itself.
    My understanding is that MS stuffed a lot of new members in there to get
    OOXML through on the fast track, and if (as seems to be the case) they
    joined only for the one purpose, that rather fouls up the whole system
    now wrt processing other specs, does it not?

    "egg" and "face" are the two words that come to mind..... although in
    these parts, "they buggered it up between them" might well be better
    understood!


  5. Re: [News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African)

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    ____/ bbgruff on Friday 23 May 2008 17:29 : \____

    > Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >
    >> The whole thing is a big mess. With the EU still investigating the
    >> stuffing, the whole legitimacy of the process is in the gutter. In
    >> fact, OOXML's BRM convenor took a little spit on the process a few
    >> days ago, saying they need to start from scratch.

    >
    > Thanks for your response, Roy - and I was quite forgetting the situation
    > within the ISO itself.
    > My understanding is that MS stuffed a lot of new members in there to get
    > OOXML through on the fast track, and if (as seems to be the case) they
    > joined only for the one purpose, that rather fouls up the whole system
    > now wrt processing other specs, does it not?


    Someone has just told me that PAS has gone titsup and there may be no new
    (fast-tracked) standards here until 2010 at the earliest.

    > "egg" and "face" are the two words that come to mind..... although in
    > these parts, "they buggered it up between them" might well be better
    > understood!


    The egg-throwing routine was lame. Seeing Ballmer and The Gang going pale when
    a lot of the corruption is exposed *AND* brings punishment would be better. In
    reality, the corruption is hardly covered in the press and Microsoft is above
    the law -- earning that sort of immunity only diplomats typically have.

    - --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Beware the Windows box spewage (more commonly known as "spam")
    http://Schestowitz.com | GNU is Not UNIX | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    http://iuron.com - proposing a non-profit search engine
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  6. Re: [News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African)

    On Fri, 23 May 2008 17:54:11 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:


    > Someone has just told me that PAS has gone titsup and there may be no new
    > (fast-tracked) standards here until 2010 at the earliest.


    Another one of those 'reliable source' voices in your head Roy Schestowitz?



    > ~~ Best of wishes
    >
    > Beware the Windows box spewage (more commonly known as "spam")
    > http://Schestowitz.com | GNU is Not UNIX | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    > http://iuron.com - proposing a non-profit search engine
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  7. Re: [News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African)

    Moshe Goldfarb (flatfish) in real life Gary Stewart

    http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2008/...arb-troll.html
    http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2007/...ish-troll.html

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  8. Re: [News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African)

    Roy Schestowitz wrote:

    >> "egg" and "face" are the two words that come to mind..... although in
    >> these parts, "they buggered it up between them" might well be better
    >> understood!

    >
    > The egg-throwing routine was lame.


    Oh dear - my fault.
    I'd quite forgotten *that* episode!

    Nono - I really did mean that both MS and ISO ended up with egg on their
    face:-)


  9. Re: [News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African)

    bbgruff espoused:
    > Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >
    >>> "egg" and "face" are the two words that come to mind..... although in
    >>> these parts, "they buggered it up between them" might well be better
    >>> understood!

    >>
    >> The egg-throwing routine was lame.

    >
    > Oh dear - my fault.
    > I'd quite forgotten *that* episode!
    >
    > Nono - I really did mean that both MS and ISO ended up with egg on their
    > face:-)
    >


    Unfortunately, most standards bodies suffer similar potential weakness,
    because /someone/ has to put the work in. The IETF is one of the
    weakest here, because you only have to turn up to vote, but contrarily,
    if you're not there, you *lose* your vote completely.

    I think that the best way forward might be to move these bodies away
    from using behind-closed-doors plenaries to a fully open and visible
    voting process, perhaps held online.

    There is no reasonable excuse for ignoring the thousands of issues
    raised, instead, a full and detailed discussion should've taken place,
    perhaps by email, with publicly available email list records, so that
    everyone could see it happening.

    I think that whatever happens, the ISO will never be the same again.
    It could never be seen as being fully above board, instead, there will
    always be a suspicion of corruption about whatever they do.

    --
    | mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
    | Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
    | Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
    | Open platforms prevent vendor lock-in. Own your Own services! |


  10. Re: [News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African)

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    ____/ Mark Kent on Thursday 05 June 2008 23:20 : \____

    > bbgruff espoused:
    >> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >>
    >>>> "egg" and "face" are the two words that come to mind..... although in
    >>>> these parts, "they buggered it up between them" might well be better
    >>>> understood!
    >>>
    >>> The egg-throwing routine was lame.

    >>
    >> Oh dear - my fault.
    >> I'd quite forgotten *that* episode!
    >>
    >> Nono - I really did mean that both MS and ISO ended up with egg on their
    >> face:-)
    >>

    >
    > Unfortunately, most standards bodies suffer similar potential weakness,
    > because /someone/ has to put the work in. The IETF is one of the
    > weakest here, because you only have to turn up to vote, but contrarily,
    > if you're not there, you *lose* your vote completely.
    >
    > I think that the best way forward might be to move these bodies away
    > from using behind-closed-doors plenaries to a fully open and visible
    > voting process, perhaps held online.
    >
    > There is no reasonable excuse for ignoring the thousands of issues
    > raised, instead, a full and detailed discussion should've taken place,
    > perhaps by email, with publicly available email list records, so that
    > everyone could see it happening.
    >
    > I think that whatever happens, the ISO will never be the same again.
    > It could never be seen as being fully above board, instead, there will
    > always be a suspicion of corruption about whatever they do.


    They recently approached the IEEE and there's worry that they
    couuld 'contaminate' them too, personnel- or reputation-wise.

    - --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    "Linux is a very complete and sophisticated operating system. And there is a
    lot of work being done to improve it in and of itself, particularly to make it
    easier to use and easier for people to set up on their personal computers."
    --Paul Maritz, Microsoft
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  11. Re: [News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African)

    Roy Schestowitz espoused:
    > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    > Hash: SHA1
    >
    > ____/ Mark Kent on Thursday 05 June 2008 23:20 : \____
    >
    >> bbgruff espoused:
    >>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>> "egg" and "face" are the two words that come to mind..... although in
    >>>>> these parts, "they buggered it up between them" might well be better
    >>>>> understood!
    >>>>
    >>>> The egg-throwing routine was lame.
    >>>
    >>> Oh dear - my fault.
    >>> I'd quite forgotten *that* episode!
    >>>
    >>> Nono - I really did mean that both MS and ISO ended up with egg on their
    >>> face:-)
    >>>

    >>
    >> Unfortunately, most standards bodies suffer similar potential weakness,
    >> because /someone/ has to put the work in. The IETF is one of the
    >> weakest here, because you only have to turn up to vote, but contrarily,
    >> if you're not there, you *lose* your vote completely.
    >>
    >> I think that the best way forward might be to move these bodies away
    >> from using behind-closed-doors plenaries to a fully open and visible
    >> voting process, perhaps held online.
    >>
    >> There is no reasonable excuse for ignoring the thousands of issues
    >> raised, instead, a full and detailed discussion should've taken place,
    >> perhaps by email, with publicly available email list records, so that
    >> everyone could see it happening.
    >>
    >> I think that whatever happens, the ISO will never be the same again.
    >> It could never be seen as being fully above board, instead, there will
    >> always be a suspicion of corruption about whatever they do.

    >
    > They recently approached the IEEE and there's worry that they
    > couuld 'contaminate' them too, personnel- or reputation-wise.
    >


    Putting my ultra-cynical hat on, I'd say that there's nothing in the
    IEEE to make them any less prone to corruption, in fact, they're
    probably more so, as their oversight is very limited indeed. I know
    that their ethernet stuff usually just follows what a particular
    manufacturer has developed, so I doubt that they're any more shiny than
    ISO.

    ISO, however, were publicly caught in their corruption.

    --
    | mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
    | Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
    | Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
    | Open platforms prevent vendor lock-in. Own your Own services! |


  12. Re: [News] Official International-level Complaint About Microsoft OOXML and ISO (from South African)

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    ____/ Mark Kent on Friday 06 June 2008 22:06 : \____

    > Roy Schestowitz espoused:
    >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    >> Hash: SHA1
    >>
    >> ____/ Mark Kent on Thursday 05 June 2008 23:20 : \____
    >>
    >>> bbgruff espoused:
    >>>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>>> "egg" and "face" are the two words that come to mind..... although in
    >>>>>> these parts, "they buggered it up between them" might well be better
    >>>>>> understood!
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The egg-throwing routine was lame.
    >>>>
    >>>> Oh dear - my fault.
    >>>> I'd quite forgotten *that* episode!
    >>>>
    >>>> Nono - I really did mean that both MS and ISO ended up with egg on their
    >>>> face:-)
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Unfortunately, most standards bodies suffer similar potential weakness,
    >>> because /someone/ has to put the work in. The IETF is one of the
    >>> weakest here, because you only have to turn up to vote, but contrarily,
    >>> if you're not there, you *lose* your vote completely.
    >>>
    >>> I think that the best way forward might be to move these bodies away
    >>> from using behind-closed-doors plenaries to a fully open and visible
    >>> voting process, perhaps held online.
    >>>
    >>> There is no reasonable excuse for ignoring the thousands of issues
    >>> raised, instead, a full and detailed discussion should've taken place,
    >>> perhaps by email, with publicly available email list records, so that
    >>> everyone could see it happening.
    >>>
    >>> I think that whatever happens, the ISO will never be the same again.
    >>> It could never be seen as being fully above board, instead, there will
    >>> always be a suspicion of corruption about whatever they do.

    >>
    >> They recently approached the IEEE and there's worry that they
    >> couuld 'contaminate' them too, personnel- or reputation-wise.
    >>

    >
    > Putting my ultra-cynical hat on, I'd say that there's nothing in the
    > IEEE to make them any less prone to corruption, in fact, they're
    > probably more so, as their oversight is very limited indeed. I know
    > that their ethernet stuff usually just follows what a particular
    > manufacturer has developed, so I doubt that they're any more shiny than
    > ISO.
    >
    > ISO, however, were publicly caught in their corruption.
    >

    Re: IEEE, yes, it's very true in wireless. I thing that Rambus is a classic
    (multi-billion-dollar case) and there's 3G.
    - --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | #ff0000 Hot Chilli Peppers
    http://Schestowitz.com | Free as in Free Beer | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
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