need advice during abandonment of windows - Linux

This is a discussion on need advice during abandonment of windows - Linux ; I am seriously considering leaving the world according to gates, and moving to Linux, probably RedHat. Each new version of windoze adds more layers over the win32 and win64 functions, pushing me farther away from the hardware. I write programs ...

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  1. need advice during abandonment of windows

    I am seriously considering leaving the world according to gates, and moving
    to Linux, probably RedHat. Each new version of windoze adds more layers
    over the win32 and win64 functions, pushing me farther away from the
    hardware. I write programs to control machines, such as assembler
    workstations, prototype fluid dispensers, etc. I have used C/C++ for
    fifteen years, and hate to give up the closeness of hardware and device
    drivers.

    I am reading a book, out of date some, Linux Kernel Development by Robert
    Love, Second Edition. I am using it to familiarize myself with the kernal,
    and I have tinkered with QT3 some using the serial port to talk to a known
    good machine I developed several years ago using MSVC++ 6.0. QT is fine and
    all, but I am looking for advice on other compilers and useful IDE's. As a
    beginner to Linux, I realize I have a rather lengthy learning curve to
    tackle, but I feel it will be well worth it.

    I am so pissed at microsloth, I will spend any amount of hours to learn this
    stuff. Even some of my customers have asked about the possibility of using
    Linux for future projects, and that was music to my ears. For those of you
    that wish to defend the world of gates, please, I am not looking for an
    argument between different operating systems. I just need solid advice to
    get started.

    I found a few web sites, like gcc.gnu.org, and hope to find others where
    code is peer reviewed. Good book recomendations would be greatly
    appreciated.

    Thanks in advance.

    Glenn Smith
    CodeMech Systems (at yahoo.com)



  2. Re: need advice during abandonment of windows

    >glenn
    >Each new version of windoze adds more layers
    >over the win32 and win64 functions, pushing me farther away from the
    >hardware.


    Hopefully, your post, and my comment to it, won't start some stupid flame war
    with OS fanatics. But I do want to comment on the above so that you understand
    where I'm coming from, and realize that my advice may be more pertinent to you
    than some others, because it sounds like your preferences are quite similiar to
    my own.

    I write most all my Win32 apps in plain C, going right to the Win32 API as it
    existed before COM and NET. I never even liked frameworks such as MFC or WTL.
    And I definitely don't care for C# or VB.NET. I loved my Microsoft Visual C++
    7.0 IDE (but use it only for C coding, not MFC, nor the Class Wizard stuff). I
    don't care for the latest C# and VB.NET IDEs.

    I've done a bit of Linux programming recently because, like you, I noticed that
    MS is really pushing toward very abstract languages like C#, and I don't want
    to follow that path.

    So here's what this particular Windows developer has experienced in moving to
    Linux.

    1) For GUI apps, I chose to utilize Gnome rather than QT. QT doesn't support C,
    and I prefer C to C++. (Also, I prefer Gnome to KDE, and Gnome apps run better
    under the Gnome desktop than do QT apps). I design my GUI using the tool
    Glade2, which is sort of like the dialog editor in MS Visual C++'s IDE. But
    Glade2 spits out an XML (ie, specially formatted text) file which remains
    separate from your EXE. This one XML file contains all of the "layouts" for all
    your windows, menus, and controls (called "widgets" in Linuxland). (Contrast
    this with Windows, where the resource editor compiles your windows, menus, and
    controls definitions into a binary format that gets linked right into your
    EXE). Your Linux EXE then uses a library called "libglade" that has a function
    you can call in it to present one of the windows (and its controls) from that
    XML file. Think of it as the same thing as Win32's CreateDialog().

    2) Linux dev tools are unfortunately way too command-line, and text, oriented
    (aside from Glade2). You won't find anything quite as cohesive and intuitive as
    Microsoft's Visual C++ 7.0 IDE. The closest thing is Eclipse, which is bloated,
    and when compiling C/C++, still runs atop of the notoriously convoluted,
    text-based GNU auto-tools. (Any IDE that requires auto-tools to compile C/C++
    is going to be a nightmare). What I found to be easiest is to just hand-create
    a very basic make file, and run it from the command line. Linux IDEs are more a
    hindrance than a help. I write my code in Gedit (ie, the Gnome text editor),
    and have a plugin for it that runs my basic makefile.

    3) If you're doing C/C++ dev under a Debian distro, definitely apt-get the
    package "build-essentials" which will give you the compiler/linker/assembler,
    basic C libs and includes, and the basic GNU utilities like "make". Then if you
    want to do Gnome GUI apps, you also install some Gnome dev packages, such as
    libglade and the Glade2 utility.

  3. Re: need advice during abandonment of windows

    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 May 2008 22:17:46 -0700) it happened "glenn"
    wrote in <%rsZj.242$xZ.240@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>:

    >I am seriously considering leaving the world according to gates, and moving
    >to Linux, probably RedHat. Each new version of windoze adds more layers
    >over the win32 and win64 functions, pushing me farther away from the
    >hardware. I write programs to control machines, such as assembler
    >workstations, prototype fluid dispensers, etc. I have used C/C++ for
    >fifteen years, and hate to give up the closeness of hardware and device
    >drivers.
    >
    >I am reading a book, out of date some, Linux Kernel Development by Robert
    >Love, Second Edition. I am using it to familiarize myself with the kernal,
    >and I have tinkered with QT3 some using the serial port to talk to a known
    >good machine I developed several years ago using MSVC++ 6.0. QT is fine and
    >all, but I am looking for advice on other compilers and useful IDE's. As a
    >beginner to Linux, I realize I have a rather lengthy learning curve to
    >tackle, but I feel it will be well worth it.
    >
    >I am so pissed at microsloth, I will spend any amount of hours to learn this
    >stuff. Even some of my customers have asked about the possibility of using
    >Linux for future projects, and that was music to my ears. For those of you
    >that wish to defend the world of gates, please, I am not looking for an
    >argument between different operating systems. I just need solid advice to
    >get started.
    >
    >I found a few web sites, like gcc.gnu.org, and hope to find others where
    >code is peer reviewed. Good book recomendations would be greatly
    >appreciated.
    >
    >Thanks in advance.
    >
    >Glenn Smith
    >CodeMech Systems (at yahoo.com)


    If yo uuse Linux, and download cforms, it has a GUI generator 'fdesign',
    that will even write C code for you.
    For things like control this GUI is very fast and practice, all you need to
    'write in the callbacks (for the buttons etc) in C.
    http://download.savannah.gnu.org/releases/xforms/
    Qt is big bloat, Qt-4 even more so, as is the C++ dialect itself.
    In fact C++ is a speech disability.



  4. Re: need advice during abandonment of windows

    Jan Panteltje wrote:
    > If yo uuse Linux, and download cforms,


    I guess you meant XForms.

    > it has a GUI generator 'fdesign',
    > that will even write C code for you.
    > For things like control this GUI is very fast and practice, all you need to
    > 'write in the callbacks (for the buttons etc) in C.
    > http://download.savannah.gnu.org/releases/xforms/


    If you do so, please consider using the newest version, even if
    it's only a pre-relase (currently 1.0.91-pre7, but pre8 is coming
    out soon). It should be more stable (and look better;-) than the
    1.0.90, which is already more that 4 years old. Feedback about
    errors you may still find is highly appreciated!

    Regards, Jens
    --
    \ Jens Thoms Toerring ___ jt@toerring.de
    \__________________________ http://toerring.de

  5. Re: need advice during abandonment of windows


    "Jeff Glatt" wrote in message
    news:9nvc349c4gorr860d1mp8r291knf856i7e@4ax.com...
    > >glenn
    >>Each new version of windoze adds more layers
    >>over the win32 and win64 functions, pushing me farther away from the
    >>hardware.

    >
    > Hopefully, your post, and my comment to it, won't start some stupid flame
    > war
    > with OS fanatics. But I do want to comment on the above so that you
    > understand
    > where I'm coming from, and realize that my advice may be more pertinent to
    > you
    > than some others, because it sounds like your preferences are quite
    > similiar to
    > my own.
    >
    > I write most all my Win32 apps in plain C, going right to the Win32 API as
    > it
    > existed before COM and NET. I never even liked frameworks such as MFC or
    > WTL.
    > And I definitely don't care for C# or VB.NET. I loved my Microsoft Visual
    > C++
    > 7.0 IDE (but use it only for C coding, not MFC, nor the Class Wizard
    > stuff). I
    > don't care for the latest C# and VB.NET IDEs.
    >
    > I've done a bit of Linux programming recently because, like you, I noticed
    > that
    > MS is really pushing toward very abstract languages like C#, and I don't
    > want
    > to follow that path.
    >
    > So here's what this particular Windows developer has experienced in moving
    > to
    > Linux.
    >
    > 1) For GUI apps, I chose to utilize Gnome rather than QT. QT doesn't
    > support C,
    > and I prefer C to C++. (Also, I prefer Gnome to KDE, and Gnome apps run
    > better
    > under the Gnome desktop than do QT apps). I design my GUI using the tool
    > Glade2, which is sort of like the dialog editor in MS Visual C++'s IDE.
    > But
    > Glade2 spits out an XML (ie, specially formatted text) file which remains
    > separate from your EXE. This one XML file contains all of the "layouts"
    > for all
    > your windows, menus, and controls (called "widgets" in Linuxland).
    > (Contrast
    > this with Windows, where the resource editor compiles your windows, menus,
    > and
    > controls definitions into a binary format that gets linked right into your
    > EXE). Your Linux EXE then uses a library called "libglade" that has a
    > function
    > you can call in it to present one of the windows (and its controls) from
    > that
    > XML file. Think of it as the same thing as Win32's CreateDialog().
    >
    > 2) Linux dev tools are unfortunately way too command-line, and text,
    > oriented
    > (aside from Glade2). You won't find anything quite as cohesive and
    > intuitive as
    > Microsoft's Visual C++ 7.0 IDE. The closest thing is Eclipse, which is
    > bloated,
    > and when compiling C/C++, still runs atop of the notoriously convoluted,
    > text-based GNU auto-tools. (Any IDE that requires auto-tools to compile
    > C/C++
    > is going to be a nightmare). What I found to be easiest is to just
    > hand-create
    > a very basic make file, and run it from the command line. Linux IDEs are
    > more a
    > hindrance than a help. I write my code in Gedit (ie, the Gnome text
    > editor),
    > and have a plugin for it that runs my basic makefile.
    >
    > 3) If you're doing C/C++ dev under a Debian distro, definitely apt-get the
    > package "build-essentials" which will give you the
    > compiler/linker/assembler,
    > basic C libs and includes, and the basic GNU utilities like "make". Then
    > if you
    > want to do Gnome GUI apps, you also install some Gnome dev packages, such
    > as
    > libglade and the Glade2 utility.


    Thank you for the advice. It is extremely helpful. I originally looked at
    Gnome, but found much of the
    development effort was pointed toward network aware components, which I
    don't
    need for machines, also, I found it ran kinda slow. Maybe I should revisit
    it for
    straight C. I vaguely remember Glade.

    I did some work with XML a few years back, I will have to review the basics.
    I also
    need to review makefiles, make, etc, since VC++ instills laziness in that
    respect.

    I copy/pasted your comments into a text file for future reference, my news
    server
    drops posts after only a few days.

    Glenn Smith
    CodeMech Systems (at yahoo.com)



  6. Re: need advice during abandonment of windows


    "Jan Panteltje" wrote in message
    news:g1675u$o8c$1@news.datemas.de...
    > On a sunny day (Thu, 22 May 2008 22:17:46 -0700) it happened "glenn"
    > wrote in <%rsZj.242$xZ.240@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com>:
    >
    >>I am seriously considering leaving the world according to gates, and
    >>moving
    >>to Linux, probably RedHat. Each new version of windoze adds more layers
    >>over the win32 and win64 functions, pushing me farther away from the
    >>hardware. I write programs to control machines, such as assembler
    >>workstations, prototype fluid dispensers, etc. I have used C/C++ for
    >>fifteen years, and hate to give up the closeness of hardware and device
    >>drivers.
    >>
    >>I am reading a book, out of date some, Linux Kernel Development by Robert
    >>Love, Second Edition. I am using it to familiarize myself with the
    >>kernal,
    >>and I have tinkered with QT3 some using the serial port to talk to a known
    >>good machine I developed several years ago using MSVC++ 6.0. QT is fine
    >>and
    >>all, but I am looking for advice on other compilers and useful IDE's. As
    >>a
    >>beginner to Linux, I realize I have a rather lengthy learning curve to
    >>tackle, but I feel it will be well worth it.
    >>
    >>I am so pissed at microsloth, I will spend any amount of hours to learn
    >>this
    >>stuff. Even some of my customers have asked about the possibility of
    >>using
    >>Linux for future projects, and that was music to my ears. For those of
    >>you
    >>that wish to defend the world of gates, please, I am not looking for an
    >>argument between different operating systems. I just need solid advice to
    >>get started.
    >>
    >>I found a few web sites, like gcc.gnu.org, and hope to find others where
    >>code is peer reviewed. Good book recomendations would be greatly
    >>appreciated.
    >>
    >>Thanks in advance.
    >>
    >>Glenn Smith
    >>CodeMech Systems (at yahoo.com)

    >
    > If yo uuse Linux, and download cforms, it has a GUI generator 'fdesign',
    > that will even write C code for you.
    > For things like control this GUI is very fast and practice, all you need
    > to
    > 'write in the callbacks (for the buttons etc) in C.
    > http://download.savannah.gnu.org/releases/xforms/
    > Qt is big bloat, Qt-4 even more so, as is the C++ dialect itself.
    > In fact C++ is a speech disability.
    >
    >


    I downloaded QT-4 to test it for a month, and you are right. It is big and
    bloated, and it took me forever to do even the most simple things that were
    a snap in QT-3.

    I actually enjoy C++, but sometimes it does make me feel like I forgot
    how to speak English.

    Glenn Smith
    CodeMech Systems (at yahoo.com)



  7. Re: need advice during abandonment of windows

    Jeff Glatt wrote:
    >> glenn
    >> Each new version of windoze adds more layers
    >> over the win32 and win64 functions, pushing me farther away from the
    >> hardware.

    >
    > Hopefully, your post, and my comment to it, won't start some stupid flame war
    > with OS fanatics. But I do want to comment on the above so that you understand
    > where I'm coming from, and realize that my advice may be more pertinent to you
    > than some others, because it sounds like your preferences are quite similiar to
    > my own.
    >
    > I write most all my Win32 apps in plain C, going right to the Win32 API as it
    > existed before COM and NET. I never even liked frameworks such as MFC or WTL.
    > And I definitely don't care for C# or VB.NET. I loved my Microsoft Visual C++
    > 7.0 IDE (but use it only for C coding, not MFC, nor the Class Wizard stuff). I
    > don't care for the latest C# and VB.NET IDEs.
    >
    > I've done a bit of Linux programming recently because, like you, I noticed that
    > MS is really pushing toward very abstract languages like C#, and I don't want
    > to follow that path.
    >
    > So here's what this particular Windows developer has experienced in moving to
    > Linux.
    >
    > 1) For GUI apps, I chose to utilize Gnome rather than QT. QT doesn't support C,
    > and I prefer C to C++. (Also, I prefer Gnome to KDE, and Gnome apps run better
    > under the Gnome desktop than do QT apps). I design my GUI using the tool
    > Glade2, which is sort of like the dialog editor in MS Visual C++'s IDE. But
    > Glade2 spits out an XML (ie, specially formatted text) file which remains
    > separate from your EXE. This one XML file contains all of the "layouts" for all
    > your windows, menus, and controls (called "widgets" in Linuxland). (Contrast
    > this with Windows, where the resource editor compiles your windows, menus, and
    > controls definitions into a binary format that gets linked right into your
    > EXE). Your Linux EXE then uses a library called "libglade" that has a function
    > you can call in it to present one of the windows (and its controls) from that
    > XML file. Think of it as the same thing as Win32's CreateDialog().
    >
    > 2) Linux dev tools are unfortunately way too command-line, and text, oriented
    > (aside from Glade2). You won't find anything quite as cohesive and intuitive as
    > Microsoft's Visual C++ 7.0 IDE. The closest thing is Eclipse, which is bloated,
    > and when compiling C/C++, still runs atop of the notoriously convoluted,
    > text-based GNU auto-tools. (Any IDE that requires auto-tools to compile C/C++
    > is going to be a nightmare). What I found to be easiest is to just hand-create
    > a very basic make file, and run it from the command line. Linux IDEs are more a
    > hindrance than a help. I write my code in Gedit (ie, the Gnome text editor),
    > and have a plugin for it that runs my basic makefile.
    >
    > 3) If you're doing C/C++ dev under a Debian distro, definitely apt-get the
    > package "build-essentials" which will give you the compiler/linker/assembler,
    > basic C libs and includes, and the basic GNU utilities like "make". Then if you
    > want to do Gnome GUI apps, you also install some Gnome dev packages, such as
    > libglade and the Glade2 utility.



    Just a quick note; I recommend trying out build-tools like Scons or CMake (I have only tried Scons, but I've heard CMake being recommended). Scons is in my experience and for my uses way nicer than Makefiles/make.

    Glenn Smith:
    I've been working on this platform since my switch in 1998/1999 (10 years O_o) and it is very nice once you get used to it. Don't give up. One thing I noticed about your post is that you seem to be looking in the wrong places for Linux software. You need to (in 95% of all cases) use the package manager of your distro. Debian/Ubuntu is very good choices as they have the biggest amount of packages out there. The less "manual work" you need to do downloading, compiling and installing software the better and packages solve this by doing it for you.

    --
    Lars Rune Nøstdal
    http://nostdal.org/

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