how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system? - Linux

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  1. how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    Just installed Ubuntu on a separate drive and the first time I rebooted
    I got a "menu" where I could select between Ubuntu or Windows XP. After
    shutting down, I restarted later and the machine tries to boot up but
    gets to the point where "Loading GRUB Stage 1.5" comes up and shortly
    after the machine reboots again - it continues in this loop. I can't
    get to Windows or Ubuntu because the "menu" doesn't ever come up. How
    can I get GRUB deleted so that I can boot into Windows without having to
    completely reinstall windows again? I've tried Windows XP recovery
    booting from the CD rom and the drive where Windows is installed has
    been made a dynamic drive, so it shows up as a ? and can't be accessed.
    This is a real flub and enough to make me forget Linux if I can't run
    both operating systems on one computer with each OS installed on a
    different hard drive. Any help would be appreciated.

  2. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    resolved wrote:

    > Just installed Ubuntu on a separate drive and the first time I rebooted
    > I got a "menu" where I could select between Ubuntu or Windows XP. After
    > shutting down, I restarted later and the machine tries to boot up but
    > gets to the point where "Loading GRUB Stage 1.5" comes up and shortly
    > after the machine reboots again - it continues in this loop. I can't
    > get to Windows or Ubuntu because the "menu" doesn't ever come up. How
    > can I get GRUB deleted so that I can boot into Windows without having to
    > completely reinstall windows again? I've tried Windows XP recovery
    > booting from the CD rom and the drive where Windows is installed has
    > been made a dynamic drive, so it shows up as a ? and can't be accessed.
    > This is a real flub and enough to make me forget Linux if I can't run
    > both operating systems on one computer with each OS installed on a
    > different hard drive. Any help would be appreciated.



    This is the best explanation to resolve the problem I have found. I have
    used it to restore and reinstall GRUB several times.

    http://users.bigpond.net.au/hermanzo...b_with_Live_CD

    Boot the live CD first and then when you are on the desktop follow the
    instructions.

    Good luck and please post again and let us know how you get on.

  3. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    On Thu, 22 May 2008 02:18:33 -0500, resolved wrote:

    In the first place. --Linux-- did not screw up your system. You have a
    problem with your Ubuntu install.

    > Just installed Ubuntu on a separate drive and the first time I rebooted
    > I got a "menu" where I could select between Ubuntu or Windows XP. After
    > shutting down, I restarted later and the machine tries to boot up but
    > gets to the point where "Loading GRUB Stage 1.5" comes up and shortly
    > after the machine reboots again - it continues in this loop. I can't
    > get to Windows or Ubuntu because the "menu" doesn't ever come up. How
    > can I get GRUB deleted so that I can boot into Windows without having to
    > completely reinstall windows again? I've tried Windows XP recovery
    > booting from the CD rom and the drive where Windows is installed has
    > been made a dynamic drive, so it shows up as a ? and can't be accessed.
    > This is a real flub and enough to make me forget Linux if I can't run
    > both operating systems on one computer with each OS installed on a
    > different hard drive. Any help would be appreciated.



    Google: Ubuntu restore mbr

    There are a number of articles.



    --
    Rick

  4. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    resolved wrote:

    >This is a real flub and enough to make me forget Linux if I can't run
    >both operating systems on one computer with each OS installed on a
    >different hard drive.


    IMO this kind of thing, assuming the poster is "for real", is the most
    serious problem in the Linux world. Easy dual-booting, I believe, is
    *mandatory* to get the masses to try Linux. I have to admit that
    setting-up a dual-boot machine is remains a somewhat frightening and
    error-prone process - if it works, great, but if it doesn't, and
    Windows will no longer boot, the poor user feels pretty burned.

    The recovery process is rather technical, as well. Most people don't
    know or care what a MBR is - they just want things to work.


  5. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?


    "chrisv" wrote in message
    news:chra345is7280fll4qs3onopeueqsq1ki5@4ax.com...
    > resolved wrote:
    >
    >>This is a real flub and enough to make me forget Linux if I can't run
    >>both operating systems on one computer with each OS installed on a
    >>different hard drive.

    >
    > IMO this kind of thing, assuming the poster is "for real", is the most
    > serious problem in the Linux world. Easy dual-booting, I believe, is
    > *mandatory* to get the masses to try Linux. I have to admit that
    > setting-up a dual-boot machine is remains a somewhat frightening and
    > error-prone process - if it works, great, but if it doesn't, and
    > Windows will no longer boot, the poor user feels pretty burned.
    >
    > The recovery process is rather technical, as well. Most people don't
    > know or care what a MBR is - they just want things to work.
    >



    Actually you're 100% right on this one. (Maybe it's a blind squirrel+nut or
    Broken clock... twice a day sort of thing.)

    The first time I installed linux (it was SuSE) on a spare drive the install
    went fine, it installed GRUB on my boot (XP) partition and I could boot SuSE
    just fine.

    But when I tried to boot into XP from grub I would get some arcane error.
    Sure enough, grub knew enough about my system to get it to boot into SuSE
    but it screwed up enough where I couldn't boot into XP anymore.

    I'm a total techie but it even took me a lot of digging around and fussing
    with the grub configuration to get this fixed. Something that would be
    IMPOSSIBLE for 99.9% of casual computer users to ever do.

    And fixing the grub configuration is far from easy. I needed to boot into
    Suse, sudo in order to edit the changes, reboot and then see if it worked.
    When it didn't work the "attempted XP boot" would hang and I'd have to reset
    my machine, boot back into SuSE, edit grub and try again. Lather, rinse and
    repeat several times. Slow... painful and complicated.



    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  6. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    * chrisv peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > resolved wrote:
    >
    >>This is a real flub and enough to make me forget Linux if I can't run
    >>both operating systems on one computer with each OS installed on a
    >>different hard drive.

    >
    > IMO this kind of thing, assuming the poster is "for real", is the most
    > serious problem in the Linux world. Easy dual-booting, I believe, is
    > *mandatory* to get the masses to try Linux. I have to admit that
    > setting-up a dual-boot machine is remains a somewhat frightening and
    > error-prone process - if it works, great, but if it doesn't, and
    > Windows will no longer boot, the poor user feels pretty burned.
    >
    > The recovery process is rather technical, as well. Most people don't
    > know or care what a MBR is - they just want things to work.


    Tell that to Crimosoft.

    --
    We've done some good work, but all of these products become obsolete so
    fast... It will be some finite number of years, and I don't know the number
    -- before our doom comes.
    -- Bill Gates, Forbes Greatest Business Stories of All Time (1997) by Daniel
    Gross ISBN 0471196533

  7. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    Linonut wrote:

    >* chrisv peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>
    >> I have to admit that
    >> setting-up a dual-boot machine is remains a somewhat frightening and
    >> error-prone process - if it works, great, but if it doesn't, and
    >> Windows will no longer boot, the poor user feels pretty burned.
    >>
    >> The recovery process is rather technical, as well. Most people don't
    >> know or care what a MBR is - they just want things to work.

    >
    >Tell that to Crimosoft.


    No doubt, M$ is largely to blame for the present situation, due to
    their complete indifference (indeed, hostility) to "playing nice" with
    competing operating systems.

    In a perfect world, there would be the option of installing the non-M$
    OS of one's choice, then Windows after, and the M$ boot-loader would
    nicely provide the option of booting either OS.

    Unfortunately, M$ playing nice is unlikely to happen in our lifetimes,
    so it's up to the OSS community to handle the situation, and make it
    as freaking bullet-proof as possible.


  8. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    * chrisv peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > In a perfect world, there would be the option of installing the non-M$
    > OS of one's choice, then Windows after, and the M$ boot-loader would
    > nicely provide the option of booting either OS.
    >
    > Unfortunately, M$ playing nice is unlikely to happen in our lifetimes,
    > so it's up to the OSS community to handle the situation, and make it
    > as freaking bullet-proof as possible.


    While dodging Microsoft bullets .

    --
    Windows 2000 already contains features such as the human discipline
    component, where the PC can send an electric shock through the keyboard if
    the human does something that does not please Windows.
    -- Bill Gates

  9. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    On Thu, 22 May 2008 05:24:30 -0500, Rick wrote:


    > Google: Ubuntu restore mbr
    >
    > There are a number of articles.


    And what if this is your only machine and Linux, typically, has hosed the
    machine?

    Your answer is a prime reason why LIEnix is free only if your time is free.





    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  10. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, chrisv

    wrote
    on Thu, 22 May 2008 08:07:08 -0500
    :
    > resolved wrote:
    >
    >>This is a real flub and enough to make me forget Linux if I can't run
    >>both operating systems on one computer with each OS installed on a
    >>different hard drive.

    >
    > IMO this kind of thing, assuming the poster is "for real", is the most
    > serious problem in the Linux world. Easy dual-booting, I believe, is
    > *mandatory* to get the masses to try Linux.


    Not only easy dual-booting, but easy installation on
    a *one* partition machine as well -- by doing what's
    necessary to create another partition, then setting up
    GRUB (my preference) or LILO to boot the existing Windows
    partition properly, as well as the new Linux one.

    The easiest way I can think of uses ntfsresize; however,
    that's a text-only utility. Presumably a graphical
    utility is strongly suggested here. Most distros appear
    to do well enough installing Linux on another partition,
    provided that partition already exists -- and will set up
    GRUB or LILO for the installer as well.

    > I have to admit that
    > setting-up a dual-boot machine is remains a somewhat frightening and
    > error-prone process - if it works, great, but if it doesn't, and
    > Windows will no longer boot, the poor user feels pretty burned.
    >
    > The recovery process is rather technical, as well. Most people don't
    > know or care what a MBR is - they just want things to work.
    >


    FDISK/MBR isn't *that* difficult. ;-) I'll admit I
    wonder what Windows has that's an equivalent buttonpress,
    though -- and what they'd call it if one doesn't want to
    use the term "master" or "record". ("Boot" is OK; it's
    a metaphorical term for kicking the thing in the right
    place to get it moving.)

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Linux. Because it's not the desktop that's
    important, it's the ability to DO something
    with it.
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  11. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    resolved wrote:

    >This is a real flub and enough to make me forget Linux if I can't run
    >both operating systems on one computer with each OS installed on a
    >different hard drive. Any help would be appreciated.


    To (hopefully) be more helpful, some people think it's safer, albeit a
    bit more work, to cause ntldr (the Windows boot-loader) to offer the
    choice of OS. There's many write-ups on this, like this one:
    http://www.vsubhash.com/writeups/multiboot_os.asp (See the Getting
    NTLDR to Load Linux section)

    To do this, you'll have to use a Linux distro that allows you the
    choice of where to install the bootloader, as you will NOT want to
    install in on the MBR. I'm afraid that some new distros, in the name
    of "user friendliness", do not provide this installation option (do an
    experimental installation on a spare HD to see if your distro does or
    not).


  12. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?


    "chrisv" wrote in message
    news:fg8b34h7nuvopfdtieeq16m49kdkjk8lrv@4ax.com...
    > resolved wrote:
    >
    > To do this, you'll have to use a Linux distro that allows you the
    > choice of where to install the bootloader, as you will NOT want to
    > install in on the MBR. I'm afraid that some new distros, in the name
    > of "user friendliness", do not provide this installation option (do an
    > experimental installation on a spare HD to see if your distro does or
    > not).
    >



    Right here you lost 99% of casual computer users.

    --- "do an experimental installation on a spare HD to see if your distro
    does or not (support installing bootloader other than on the MBR)".

    Spare HDD. Do you think that many accountants have a spare HDD sitting
    around?

    Installing the spare HDD requires opening up the case and hooking up the
    drive. This alone scares most people.

    And how do you explain to a layman such as an accountant or mechanic how to
    test if his linux distro can install the bootloader on something other than
    the MBR.


    I hate to inject "a healthy dose of reality" into this otherwise great idea
    but this simply ain't gonna work.




    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  13. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Rick

    wrote
    on Thu, 22 May 2008 05:24:30 -0500
    :
    > On Thu, 22 May 2008 02:18:33 -0500, resolved wrote:
    >

    [top-posting moved for clarity]
    >
    >> Just installed Ubuntu on a separate drive and the first time I rebooted
    >> I got a "menu" where I could select between Ubuntu or Windows XP. After
    >> shutting down, I restarted later and the machine tries to boot up but
    >> gets to the point where "Loading GRUB Stage 1.5" comes up and shortly
    >> after the machine reboots again - it continues in this loop. I can't
    >> get to Windows or Ubuntu because the "menu" doesn't ever come up. How
    >> can I get GRUB deleted so that I can boot into Windows without having to
    >> completely reinstall windows again? I've tried Windows XP recovery
    >> booting from the CD rom and the drive where Windows is installed has
    >> been made a dynamic drive, so it shows up as a ? and can't be accessed.
    >> This is a real flub and enough to make me forget Linux if I can't run
    >> both operating systems on one computer with each OS installed on a
    >> different hard drive. Any help would be appreciated.

    >
    > In the first place. --Linux-- did not screw up your system. You have a
    > problem with your Ubuntu install.
    >


    Actually, GRUB appears to be futzed. It is possible GRUB
    is referring to a nonexistent kernel or misinstalled.
    The partition table also does not look happy, though I
    doubt Ubuntu monkeys with BIOS settings.

    I do not have RAID1 or RAID5 so can't be sure if GRUB
    works thereon. The OP doesn't give any information at
    all regarding RAID so that's just a guess. (For me,
    GRUB takes a beating and just keeps booting.)

    >
    >
    > Google: Ubuntu restore mbr
    >
    > There are a number of articles.
    >


    Doesn't do any good if the machine can't connect to the
    network, either because:

    [1] The machine is dead because of a futzed install (this case).

    [2] The machine is operational but cannot access its NIC
    because of a driver problem (rare but possible, especially
    where wireless is concerned -- in my case I had to download
    a cutter utility and ndiswrapper; I don't know if the 2008
    Gentoo bootCD would have those).

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Been there, done that, didn't get the T-shirt.
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  14. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    On Thu, 22 May 2008 10:20:02 -0700, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

    > In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Rick
    >
    > wrote
    > on Thu, 22 May 2008 05:24:30 -0500
    > :
    >> On Thu, 22 May 2008 02:18:33 -0500, resolved wrote:
    >>

    > [top-posting moved for clarity]
    >>
    >>> Just installed Ubuntu on a separate drive and the first time I rebooted
    >>> I got a "menu" where I could select between Ubuntu or Windows XP. After
    >>> shutting down, I restarted later and the machine tries to boot up but
    >>> gets to the point where "Loading GRUB Stage 1.5" comes up and shortly
    >>> after the machine reboots again - it continues in this loop. I can't
    >>> get to Windows or Ubuntu because the "menu" doesn't ever come up. How
    >>> can I get GRUB deleted so that I can boot into Windows without having to
    >>> completely reinstall windows again? I've tried Windows XP recovery
    >>> booting from the CD rom and the drive where Windows is installed has
    >>> been made a dynamic drive, so it shows up as a ? and can't be accessed.
    >>> This is a real flub and enough to make me forget Linux if I can't run
    >>> both operating systems on one computer with each OS installed on a
    >>> different hard drive. Any help would be appreciated.

    >>
    >> In the first place. --Linux-- did not screw up your system. You have a
    >> problem with your Ubuntu install.
    >>

    >
    > Actually, GRUB appears to be futzed. It is possible GRUB
    > is referring to a nonexistent kernel or misinstalled.
    > The partition table also does not look happy, though I
    > doubt Ubuntu monkeys with BIOS settings.


    I've seen Grub get totally lost on Western Digital drives that had been
    *installed* using that crap WD install program based on Ontrack Software.
    The program does funny things to fool the BIOS into thinking the drive is
    smaller etc.

    Once that program hoses a drive, it is VERY difficult to get it back to
    stock again and the only solution I have found is to use one of the Nuke
    programs from The Ultimate Boot Disk etc and overwrite the drive
    completely.

    Not Grub's fault though.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  15. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Moshe. Goldfarb

    wrote
    on Thu, 22 May 2008 13:56:16 -0400
    :
    > On Thu, 22 May 2008 10:20:02 -0700, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    >
    >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Rick
    >>
    >> wrote
    >> on Thu, 22 May 2008 05:24:30 -0500
    >> :
    >>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 02:18:33 -0500, resolved wrote:
    >>>

    >> [top-posting moved for clarity]
    >>>
    >>>> Just installed Ubuntu on a separate drive and the first time I rebooted
    >>>> I got a "menu" where I could select between Ubuntu or Windows XP. After
    >>>> shutting down, I restarted later and the machine tries to boot up but
    >>>> gets to the point where "Loading GRUB Stage 1.5" comes up and shortly
    >>>> after the machine reboots again - it continues in this loop. I can't
    >>>> get to Windows or Ubuntu because the "menu" doesn't ever come up. How
    >>>> can I get GRUB deleted so that I can boot into Windows without having to
    >>>> completely reinstall windows again? I've tried Windows XP recovery
    >>>> booting from the CD rom and the drive where Windows is installed has
    >>>> been made a dynamic drive, so it shows up as a ? and can't be accessed.
    >>>> This is a real flub and enough to make me forget Linux if I can't run
    >>>> both operating systems on one computer with each OS installed on a
    >>>> different hard drive. Any help would be appreciated.
    >>>
    >>> In the first place. --Linux-- did not screw up your system. You have a
    >>> problem with your Ubuntu install.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Actually, GRUB appears to be futzed. It is possible GRUB
    >> is referring to a nonexistent kernel or misinstalled.
    >> The partition table also does not look happy, though I
    >> doubt Ubuntu monkeys with BIOS settings.

    >
    > I've seen Grub get totally lost on Western Digital drives that had been
    > *installed* using that crap WD install program based on Ontrack Software.
    > The program does funny things to fool the BIOS into thinking the drive is
    > smaller etc.
    >
    > Once that program hoses a drive, it is VERY difficult to get it back to
    > stock again and the only solution I have found is to use one of the Nuke
    > programs from The Ultimate Boot Disk etc and overwrite the drive
    > completely.
    >
    > Not Grub's fault though.
    >


    Sure about that? Grub should be able to recognize drives
    that have been modified using Ontrack Software; presumably
    it's popular enough. OEMs in particular probably know
    exactly how to use it to tweak drive performance.

    I'll admit I'm not sure how to test this; I don't have that software.

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Linux. An OS which actually, unlike certain other offerings, works.
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  16. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

    >In comp.os.linux.advocacy, chrisv wrote:
    >>
    >> IMO this kind of thing, assuming the poster is "for real", is the most
    >> serious problem in the Linux world. Easy dual-booting, I believe, is
    >> *mandatory* to get the masses to try Linux.

    >
    >Not only easy dual-booting, but easy installation on
    >a *one* partition machine as well -- by doing what's
    >necessary to create another partition, then setting up
    >GRUB (my preference) or LILO to boot the existing Windows
    >partition properly, as well as the new Linux one.


    I suppose, but partition resizing, automated or not, is also a "scary"
    endeavor. For those with C: already taking the entire first drive, I
    recommend popping for a second drive for Linux..

    What I'd *really* like to see is dual-boot preinstalled at the
    factory. M$ does not allow this, of course.

    >> The recovery process is rather technical, as well. Most people don't
    >> know or care what a MBR is - they just want things to work.

    >
    >FDISK/MBR isn't *that* difficult. ;-)


    Everything is difficult, the first time. And, when all your data is
    hanging in the balance, that can be very not-fun.


  17. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    On Thu, 22 May 2008 11:18:27 -0700, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:


    > Sure about that? Grub should be able to recognize drives
    > that have been modified using Ontrack Software; presumably
    > it's popular enough. OEMs in particular probably know
    > exactly how to use it to tweak drive performance.
    >
    > I'll admit I'm not sure how to test this; I don't have that software.


    Oh yea, I have seen it.
    What happens is if you use the WD install software, you are given a choice
    of Windows XP with SP1 or without SP1.

    If you select without SP1 it installs that Ontrack garbage and your drive
    will never be the same.

    This was with V10 or 11 (I don't remember) of the CD that comes with the
    drives.

    I've seen it fail with PCLinux and Suse.
    The system installs fine but when you go to boot for the final time, it
    hangs with a Grub code, I think 2 or 13 or something like that.

    If you go into the grub config file, you will see 2 entries for the Linux
    drive under that drive.
    One of them is the correct entry.
    The other is an incorrect entry and it will screw things up.
    This is NOT obvious BTW to a noob.

    Remove the incorrect entry and all is well.

    I'm doing all this from memory, but the common factor is WD drives and a
    person who used the install software and selected pre-sp1.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  18. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Moshe. Goldfarb

    wrote
    on Thu, 22 May 2008 14:51:54 -0400
    <7d4yymxp8uxp.t46i62dx72na$.dlg@40tude.net>:
    > On Thu, 22 May 2008 11:18:27 -0700, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    >
    >
    >> Sure about that? Grub should be able to recognize drives
    >> that have been modified using Ontrack Software; presumably
    >> it's popular enough. OEMs in particular probably know
    >> exactly how to use it to tweak drive performance.
    >>
    >> I'll admit I'm not sure how to test this; I don't have that software.

    >
    > Oh yea, I have seen it.
    > What happens is if you use the WD install software, you are given a choice
    > of Windows XP with SP1 or without SP1.
    >
    > If you select without SP1 it installs that Ontrack garbage and your drive
    > will never be the same.


    And the reason it's garbage is ... ?

    XP SP1 seems to have no problem with it.

    >
    > This was with V10 or 11 (I don't remember) of the CD that comes with the
    > drives.
    >
    > I've seen it fail with PCLinux and Suse.
    > The system installs fine but when you go to boot for the final time, it
    > hangs with a Grub code, I think 2 or 13 or something like that.


    Yes, most likely that's because Grub doesn't know that
    Ontrack has been installed, and therefore the sector
    ordering is probably different. I hope you're old enough
    to remember interleaving; it was quite common before drives
    got faster than the interface cards.

    Admittedly, interleaving was mostly transparent to
    applications (except for the speed); the general idea was
    to shuffle the sector ordering, but if one wanted sector
    #3 from a track, it was still identified as sector #3, even
    though it might have been fifth in the actual ordering.

    >
    > If you go into the grub config file, you will see 2 entries for the Linux
    > drive under that drive.


    I have one system with over half a dozen. Of course,
    that's because I've not bothered with housekeeping; if I
    build a new kernel, it goes on top but I keep the others.
    I should only keep two or three.

    > One of them is the correct entry.
    > The other is an incorrect entry and it will screw things up.
    > This is NOT obvious BTW to a noob.
    >
    > Remove the incorrect entry and all is well.
    >
    > I'm doing all this from memory, but the common factor is WD drives and a
    > person who used the install software and selected pre-sp1.
    >



    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #40490127:
    for(; ;
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  19. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, chrisv

    wrote
    on Thu, 22 May 2008 13:48:29 -0500
    :
    > The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    >
    >>In comp.os.linux.advocacy, chrisv wrote:
    >>>
    >>> IMO this kind of thing, assuming the poster is "for real", is the most
    >>> serious problem in the Linux world. Easy dual-booting, I believe, is
    >>> *mandatory* to get the masses to try Linux.

    >>
    >>Not only easy dual-booting, but easy installation on
    >>a *one* partition machine as well -- by doing what's
    >>necessary to create another partition, then setting up
    >>GRUB (my preference) or LILO to boot the existing Windows
    >>partition properly, as well as the new Linux one.

    >
    > I suppose, but partition resizing, automated or not, is also a "scary"
    > endeavor. For those with C: already taking the entire first drive, I
    > recommend popping for a second drive for Linux..
    >
    > What I'd *really* like to see is dual-boot preinstalled at the
    > factory.


    That would be a mildly problematic solution for
    single-drive machines, mostly because drives do not have
    uniform transfer parameters nowadays. In other words,
    sectors nearer the center spindle will have lower rates
    than the outermost ones.

    I've done a few dual-drive installs; they're easy to set
    up and the main risk is getting GRUB done correctly on the
    original system boot drive (the actual boot partition can
    be on the other drive). Usually, Linux has the bigger
    drive (as it's the newer drive), and everything works
    reasonably well.

    > M$ does not allow this, of course.


    I'll admit to some curiosity. I'd think that the user
    would have to ask for the dualboot option in any case
    (FreeBSD? HURD? blank?), but one can also ask for a
    dual-partitioned drive, where the first partition is for
    Windows and the second for data; the savvy installer can
    then change the type of the second partition and dedicate
    it for the other OS.

    The savvy OEM would partition the drive as a matter of course,
    putting the data on another partition so that it can be more
    easily retrieved if the system partition decides to go south.

    At least, in my opinion.

    >
    >>> The recovery process is rather technical, as well. Most people don't
    >>> know or care what a MBR is - they just want things to work.

    >>
    >>FDISK/MBR isn't *that* difficult. ;-)

    >
    > Everything is difficult, the first time. And, when all your data is
    > hanging in the balance, that can be very not-fun.
    >


    True.

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #40490127:
    for(; ;
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  20. Re: how can you advocate linux when it screws up your system?

    The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

    > chrisv wrote:
    >>
    >> The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    >>>
    >>>Not only easy dual-booting, but easy installation on
    >>>a *one* partition machine as well -- by doing what's
    >>>necessary to create another partition, then setting up
    >>>GRUB (my preference) or LILO to boot the existing Windows
    >>>partition properly, as well as the new Linux one.

    >>
    >> I suppose, but partition resizing, automated or not, is also a "scary"
    >> endeavor. For those with C: already taking the entire first drive, I
    >> recommend popping for a second drive for Linux..
    >>
    >> What I'd *really* like to see is dual-boot preinstalled at the
    >> factory.

    >
    >That would be a mildly problematic solution for
    >single-drive machines, mostly because drives do not have
    >uniform transfer parameters nowadays. In other words,
    >sectors nearer the center spindle will have lower rates
    >than the outermost ones.


    I severely doubt that's a noticeable difference in performance, there.

    OTOH, my "two drive" solution doesn't work too well for laptops...

    >> M$ does not allow this, of course.

    >
    >I'll admit to some curiosity. I'd think that the user
    >would have to ask for the dualboot option in any case
    >(FreeBSD? HURD? blank?), but one can also ask for a
    >dual-partitioned drive, where the first partition is for
    >Windows and the second for data; the savvy installer can
    >then change the type of the second partition and dedicate
    >it for the other OS.


    Can you ask for a dual-partitioned drive, from places like Dell?


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