[News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft in the UK (Schools and Free Software) - Linux

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Thread: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft in the UK (Schools and Free Software)

  1. [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft in the UK (Schools and Free Software)

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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    Open source trumps Microsoft in UK schools

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | MICROSOFT has suffered further set-backs in the UK education sector this week
    | after Becta, the government procurement quango, reformed its purchasing
    | regime to break the software giant's hold on education, and launched a
    | programme to get schools to adopt open source software.
    |
    | At least three open source software suppliers submitted tenders to Becta
    | yesterday for the £270,000 Schools Open Source Project. The winner will spend
    | two years building a community of schools which uses and develops its own
    | open source alternatives to Microsoft software.
    |
    | Becta has also specifically called on open source companies to join its £80
    | million framework list of certified suppliers of software to schools,
    | contracts for which will be awarded in June. The last framework list
    | consisted entirely of Microsoft suppliers and drew Becta widespread criticism
    | for favouring the convicted monopolist over cheaper, homegrown alternatives.
    `----

    http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...s-microsoft-uk

    Becta: The Story Continues....

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | If Becta means business over this – and it's a big "if" given the
    | roller-coaster ride we've had from them so far – this is potentially huge.
    | I've long maintained that Microsoft's stranglehold on the British education
    | sector is (a) a total scandal and (b) one of the root causes of this
    | country's poor showings in just about every survey of open source usage.
    | Here's hoping....
    `----

    http://www.computerworlduk.com/toolb...=810&blogid=14


    Recent:

    U.K. tech agency: Microsoft's no friend to schools

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | The British Educational Communications and Technology Agency (Becta) said
    | Monday that it has filed a complaint with the European Commission against
    | Microsoft, alleging that its new Office 2007 file format will impede
    | educational initiatives because it does not natively support open standards.
    `----

    http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-994...=2547-1_3-0-20


    Newham has a cow over Microsoft MOU

    ,----[ Quote
    | However, Newham has supplied the INQUIRER with internal studies that it says
    | do demonstrate that its decision to commit to Microsoft was justified. The
    | studies were performed by Socitm, a private public sector consulting firm of
    | which Newham COI Steele is a vice president. the INQUIRER will report on
    | these findings in due course. * *
    |
    | Meanwhile, the original MOU is enlightening. As well as claiming the deal
    | would enable Newham to achieve high rankings in Audit Commission assessments,
    | it committed Newham to moving all "competitive technology" to Microsoft,
    | regardless of the feasibility of such a move. *
    |
    | It also required Steele to promote Microsoft software.
    |
    | See attached file: Memorandum of Understanding.doc
    `----

    http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...m-council-goes


    Is This the Season of Porcine Aerobatics?

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | Two of the darkest moments for open source in the UK involved the loss of
    | major public projects. The first was Newham Borough Council, which ran a
    | high-profile trial of open source only to ditch it at the last moment, after
    | magically receiving an offer it couldn't refuse from Microsoft – which cynics
    | suggested was the main motivation for the open source exercise in the first
    | place. * *
    |
    | This was bad news for free software, because it enabled Microsoft to do two
    | things. First, it could claim that an independent body had tried open source
    | and found it wanting, and secondly, it was able to use Newham as a showcase
    | for its public sector technology. *
    |
    | In some ways, the second defeat was even worse. It involved a massive
    | contract with the NHS that was far-reaching in scope...
    `----

    http://www.computerworlduk.com/toolb...14&entryid=728


    London council dumps Microsoft, may go open source instead

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | NEWHAM LONDON Borough Council has scrapped the controversial 10-year
    | Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) it signed with Microsoft in 2004 and drawn
    | up a new agreement with a new set of deliverables. *
    `----

    http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...ship-flounders


    EU: Europarlement testing Ubuntu, OpenOffice and Firefox

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | The European Parliament's IT department is testing the use of GNU/Linux
    | distribution Ubuntu, OpenOffice, Firefox and other Open Source applications,
    | the British MEP James Nicholson explained last week in a letter to Italian
    | MEP Marco Cappato. *
    `----

    http://ec.europa.eu/idabc/en/document/7565


    Is Microsoft Now Banned from EU Contracts?

    http://www.computerworlduk.com/toolb...=697&blogid=14


    Euro MP thinks Microsoft should be banned from government contracts

    http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...arliament-asks


    Green MEP says Microsoft should be excluded from EU contract awarding procedure

    http://www.heise.de/english/newstick...338/from/rss09


    MEPs Question Microsoft's Eligibility for Gov't Projects

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | The Commission, which has not responded yet, is allowed a few weeks to reply.
    `----

    http://www.pcworld.com/businesscente..._projects.html


    Government faces crunch on Microsoft mega-deal

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | Rumour has it that Microsoft hasn't been feeling appreciated in the public
    | sector, thinking its customers don't know what a good deal they've been
    | getting since the MOU was first negotiated in 2002. BECTA, the procurement
    | quango for the education sector, has recommended schools don't upgrade to
    | Microsoft Vista and Office 2007. * *
    |
    | [...]
    |
    | "There's a big anti-Microsoft lobby growing on the green agenda" he said,
    | especially among local councils who were beginning to realise that PC's were
    | power hungry and expensive to maintain. They were taking interest in
    | think-client computers instead. *
    `----

    http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...unch-microsoft


    UK: Major cost reduction result of Bristol's switch to Open Standards

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | Bristol City Council's switch to StarOffice in 2005 has led to a major
    | reduction of IT costs, says Gavin Beckett, the council's ICT Strategy
    | manager. *
    |
    | StarOffice is Sun Microsystems' proprietary suite of office applications,
    | which is based on the Open Source OpenOffice. In 2006 Bristol took the
    | further step of adopting the ISO-approved Open Document Format (ODF). *
    |
    | Speaking at a conference on ODF in the Netherlands last month, Beckett said
    | that implementing StarOffice for 5,500 desktops in Bristol saved 1.1 million
    | GBP (1.4 million euro) in comparison to the total cost of implementing
    | Microsoft Office. "The licences for StarOffice cost us 186,000 GBP (243,000
    | euro), in comparison to 1.4 million GBP (1.8 million euro) for MS Office." * *
    |
    | These major savings were offset slightly by extra time needed for
    | implementing StarOffice. Implementation cost the city council 484,000 GBP
    | (632,000 euro), double the estimate for MS Office. This was due to document
    | conversion and training, said the IT Strategy manager. Explaining and
    | troubleshooting the new office applications took several months more than
    | planned. * *
    `----

    http://ec.europa.eu/idabc/en/document/7409
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  2. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft in the UK (Schools and Free Software)

    Roy Schestowitz wrote:

    > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    > Hash: SHA1
    >
    > Open source trumps Microsoft in UK schools
    >
    > ,----[ Quote ]
    > | MICROSOFT has suffered further set-backs in the UK education sector this
    > | week after Becta, the government procurement quango, reformed its
    > | purchasing regime to break the software giant's hold on education, and
    > | launched a programme to get schools to adopt open source software.
    > |
    > | At least three open source software suppliers submitted tenders to Becta
    > | yesterday for the £270,000 Schools Open Source Project. The winner will
    > | spend two years building a community of schools which uses and develops
    > | its own open source alternatives to Microsoft software.
    > |
    > | Becta has also specifically called on open source companies to join its
    > | £80 million framework list of certified suppliers of software to
    > | schools, contracts for which will be awarded in June. The last framework
    > | list consisted entirely of Microsoft suppliers and drew Becta widespread
    > | criticism for favouring the convicted monopolist over cheaper, homegrown
    > | alternatives.
    > `----
    >
    >

    http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...s-microsoft-uk
    >


    Superb, and not before time. Savings aside, exposure to choice and different
    mechanisms for achieving the same end are essential in this context.

  3. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft in the UK (Schools and Free Software)

    Sean Inglis espoused:
    > Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >
    >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    >> Hash: SHA1
    >>
    >> Open source trumps Microsoft in UK schools
    >>
    >> ,----[ Quote ]
    >> | MICROSOFT has suffered further set-backs in the UK education sector this
    >> | week after Becta, the government procurement quango, reformed its
    >> | purchasing regime to break the software giant's hold on education, and
    >> | launched a programme to get schools to adopt open source software.
    >> |
    >> | At least three open source software suppliers submitted tenders to Becta
    >> | yesterday for the 270,000 Schools Open Source Project. The winner will
    >> | spend two years building a community of schools which uses and develops
    >> | its own open source alternatives to Microsoft software.
    >> |
    >> | Becta has also specifically called on open source companies to join its
    >> | 80 million framework list of certified suppliers of software to
    >> | schools, contracts for which will be awarded in June. The last framework
    >> | list consisted entirely of Microsoft suppliers and drew Becta widespread
    >> | criticism for favouring the convicted monopolist over cheaper, homegrown
    >> | alternatives.
    >> `----
    >>
    >>

    > http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...s-microsoft-uk
    >>

    >
    > Superb, and not before time. Savings aside, exposure to choice and different
    > mechanisms for achieving the same end are essential in this context.


    Agreed. I'd like to see a return to teaching "computing" instead of
    "Microsoft" in our schools.

    --
    | mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
    | Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
    | Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
    | Open platforms prevent vendor lock-in. Own your Own services! |


  4. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft in the UK (Schools and FreeSoftware)

    Verily I say unto thee, that Mark Kent spake thusly:

    > Agreed. I'd like to see a return to teaching "computing" instead of
    > "Microsoft" in our schools.


    Yes, our schools seem to be breeding a generation of "software
    engineers" with the computing skills of a receptionist.

    Just how essential is it to learn the intricacies of Word®, anyway?

    Frankly those schools could save a fortune, and their pupils would be
    considerably better off, if they ditched their computers altogether, and
    invested in some decent books.

    I have one here by Niklaus Wirth they can borrow.

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | 'When it comes to knowledge, "ownership" just doesn't make sense'
    | ~ Cory Doctorow, The Guardian. http://tinyurl.com/22bgx8
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.23.8-63.fc8
    22:35:13 up 169 days, 19:10, 6 users, load average: 0.16, 0.09, 0.05

  5. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft in the UK (Schools and FreeSoftware)

    Homer wrote:
    > Mark Kent spake thusly:
    >
    >> Agreed. I'd like to see a return to teaching "computing" instead of
    >> "Microsoft" in our schools.

    >
    > Yes, our schools seem to be breeding a generation of "software engineers"
    > with the computing skills of a receptionist.
    >
    > Just how essential is it to learn the intricacies of Word®, anyway?
    >
    > Frankly those schools could save a fortune, and their pupils would be
    > considerably better off, if they ditched their computers altogether, and
    > invested in some decent books.
    >
    > I have one here by Niklaus Wirth they can borrow.


    If it were a vocational school or professional secretary course, it is more
    important that one understand the concepts of formatting text, copy, cut and
    paste, file organisation, saving, renaming, retrieving, etc. Then the
    individual can make use of any software office automation text application.

    It is more important in software engineering to learn the concepts of
    structured software designing. Learning to organise and break down software
    tasks into assimilable components, usage of pseudo code, data organisation, etc.

    It may be old school, but one does not need a special software development
    application to program, if they learn old school techniques. With proper
    technique, it does not matter what code is used, assembly, C, FORTRAN, ALGOL,
    BASIC, COBOL, FORTH, PL1, RPG, and etc. Coding is technician work.

    Seems that schools are turning out script kiddies programming technicians
    skilled in higher level languages only. These are fine for some tasks. When
    it comes to operating system level programming, one needs tighter code.

    When tight code is executed on a fast computer, then it is just that much
    faster. When operated on a slower one, execution speed is still acceptable.

    This is one of the reasons why Linux is much more efficient at tasks than
    Windows. At 2 MB, Beryl is a good example of efficient 3D desktop work.

    --
    HPT

  6. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft in the UK (Schools and FreeSoftware)

    Verily I say unto thee, that High Plains Thumper spake thusly:

    > It may be old school, but one does not need a special software
    > development application to program, if they learn old school
    > techniques. With proper technique, it does not matter what code is
    > used, assembly, C, FORTRAN, ALGOL, BASIC, COBOL, FORTH, PL1, RPG, and
    > etc. Coding is technician work.


    As I've said before, for most of my first year at Uni, I didn't even
    /touch/ a computer, except for the end of week SML assignment, which
    took all of five minutes to copy from my jotter, and test before
    printing. I spent most of my lab time goofing off (i.e. hacking Kerberos
    auth tickets to make it seem like my popup Zephyr massages on other
    workstations were coming from the department head).

    I've always found that trying to actually /learn/ by sitting in front of
    a computer is just a distraction, even back in the days before WWW. I
    can't imagine that /children/ learn any faster or better in front of a
    PC than by listening to a teacher and doing written assignments.
    Certainly all my anecdotal evidence points to that being the case.

    Learning is about understanding /principles/, not application.

    > Seems that schools are turning out script kiddies


    I doubt that any of them even know what a script is. Their definition of
    "programming" probably involves big shiny buttons and a rodent.

    > programming technicians skilled in higher level languages only.


    If one can bear to describe crap like Visual Basic as a "high" level
    language.

    > These are fine for some tasks.


    RADs are fine for non-programmers, at companies too cheap to hire actual
    software engineers.

    > When it comes to operating system level programming, one needs
    > tighter code.


    Someone should tell the bozos responsible for the Vista scheduler

    > When tight code is executed on a fast computer, then it is just that
    > much faster. When operated on a slower one, execution speed is still
    > acceptable.


    Although I rarely attended any, I still remember the Demo Scene parties
    in the 80's (still going strong today), where coders produced the most
    amazing demos in just 4k of RAM. Pity the Vole seems to hire the afore
    -mentioned Visual Basic "receptionists" instead of ex-sceners, otherwise
    they might not produce so much Bloatware.

    > This is one of the reasons why Linux is much more efficient at tasks
    > than Windows. At 2 MB, Beryl is a good example of efficient 3D
    > desktop work.


    It does highlight one of the more pronounced technical differences
    between the Linux and Windows development methodologies, ostensibly at
    least.

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | 'When it comes to knowledge, "ownership" just doesn't make sense'
    | ~ Cory Doctorow, The Guardian. http://tinyurl.com/22bgx8
    `----

    Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.23.8-63.fc8
    02:16:17 up 169 days, 22:51, 6 users, load average: 0.03, 0.55, 0.47

  7. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft in the UK (Schools and FreeSoftware)

    Homer wrote:
    > Verily I say unto thee, that High Plains Thumper spake thusly:
    >
    >> It may be old school, but one does not need a special
    >> software development application to program, if they learn
    >> old school techniques. With proper technique, it does not
    >> matter what code is used, assembly, C, FORTRAN, ALGOL,
    >> BASIC, COBOL, FORTH, PL1, RPG, and etc. Coding is
    >> technician work.

    >
    > As I've said before, for most of my first year at Uni, I
    > didn't even /touch/ a computer, except for the end of week SML
    > assignment, which took all of five minutes to copy from my
    > jotter, and test before printing. I spent most of my lab time
    > goofing off (i.e. hacking Kerberos auth tickets to make it
    > seem like my popup Zephyr massages on other workstations were
    > coming from the department head).
    >
    > I've always found that trying to actually /learn/ by sitting
    > in front of a computer is just a distraction, even back in the
    > days before WWW. I can't imagine that /children/ learn any
    > faster or better in front of a PC than by listening to a
    > teacher and doing written assignments. Certainly all my
    > anecdotal evidence points to that being the case.
    >
    > Learning is about understanding /principles/, not application.
    >
    >> Seems that schools are turning out script kiddies

    >
    > I doubt that any of them even know what a script is. Their
    > definition of "programming" probably involves big shiny
    > buttons and a rodent.


    Sounds like you had a good software programming foundation to
    build the rest of your career on.

    Computer is nothing more than a power tool. If one doesn't
    understand principle, it serves them no more usefulness than a
    desktop paperweight.

    I remember one senior engineer exclaiming "spaghetti code" with a
    FORTRAN-VI program with embedded assembly in parts. I took on
    that "spaghetti code" and studied it, found out it was highly
    structured. Contracted designer/writer was a genius, but the
    company did not want to pay him an additional $10K for the
    documentation. Had one comment for every 50 or so lines of code.
    Dumped it into WordStar 3.0 on an HP-125 CP/M-80 computer with
    dual full height floppies after downloading through an RS-232
    link from the mainframe.

    Formatted the code, adding comments as I discovered nested loops,
    and-if-then-else's, conditionals, etc. Formed a highly commented
    data dictionary, etc., when variables and scalars were
    discovered. (It is challenging to figure out what 6 character
    names were, example, LTAPEA meant 10 inch reel-to-reel 1600 or
    6250 BPI tape was initialised and armed for recording data;
    LTAPEF meant tape was at EOF marker.) It had even renumerated
    types ala FORTRAN-IV PARAMETER data statements. One would have
    never guessed by the column 7 programming style. Compiled it and
    compared image CRC's, to ensure no changes were introduced by my
    formatting and commenting.

    After several weeks of careful study, was able to ascertain all
    changes required to the software to make sound changes for
    upgrades to the channel setups for load servo control and data
    acquisition to accomodate the newer hardware for aircraft
    structural testing.

    We had about 20,000 lines of uncommented FORTRAN-IV and IBM 360J
    Assembly code to deal with, added another 5,000.

    It would not have been possible if one did not understand
    principles of structured software design and wasn't willing to
    learn assembly. Again, coding is a technician's issue.

    >> programming technicians skilled in higher level languages
    >> only.

    >
    > If one can bear to describe crap like Visual Basic as a "high"
    > level language.
    >
    >> These are fine for some tasks.

    >
    > RADs are fine for non-programmers, at companies too cheap to
    > hire actual software engineers.
    >
    >> When it comes to operating system level programming, one
    >> needs tighter code.

    >
    > Someone should tell the bozos responsible for the Vista
    > scheduler
    >
    >> When tight code is executed on a fast computer, then it is
    >> just that much faster. When operated on a slower one,
    >> execution speed is still acceptable.

    >
    > Although I rarely attended any, I still remember the Demo
    > Scene parties in the 80's (still going strong today), where
    > coders produced the most amazing demos in just 4k of RAM. Pity
    > the Vole seems to hire the afore -mentioned Visual Basic
    > "receptionists" instead of ex-sceners, otherwise they might
    > not produce so much Bloatware.
    >
    >> This is one of the reasons why Linux is much more efficient
    >> at tasks than Windows. At 2 MB, Beryl is a good example of
    >> efficient 3D desktop work.

    >
    > It does highlight one of the more pronounced technical
    > differences between the Linux and Windows development
    > methodologies, ostensibly at least.


    I was able to speed up data acquisition channel scanning from
    50,000 to 130,000 aggregate channels per second on this 2 MIP
    minicomputer with 2 MB RAM, by careful use of embedded assembly
    to replace FORTRAN library calls in the scan loop and breaking
    out the tape write routine as a separate task trap triggered by
    queued intertask communications.

    Accorded, I doubt but only a few Windows developers know about
    assembly language (or how to optimally use low level programming
    languages like "C". One can create *bloat* with any programming
    language.)

    --
    HPT

  8. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft in the UK (Schools and Free Software)

    On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:11:09 -0600, High Plains Thumper wrote:

    > Homer wrote:
    >> Verily I say unto thee, that High Plains Thumper spake thusly:
    >>
    >>> It may be old school, but one does not need a special
    >>> software development application to program, if they learn
    >>> old school techniques. With proper technique, it does not
    >>> matter what code is used, assembly, C, FORTRAN, ALGOL,
    >>> BASIC, COBOL, FORTH, PL1, RPG, and etc. Coding is
    >>> technician work.

    >>
    >> As I've said before, for most of my first year at Uni, I
    >> didn't even /touch/ a computer, except for the end of week SML
    >> assignment, which took all of five minutes to copy from my
    >> jotter, and test before printing. I spent most of my lab time
    >> goofing off (i.e. hacking Kerberos auth tickets to make it
    >> seem like my popup Zephyr massages on other workstations were
    >> coming from the department head).
    >>
    >> I've always found that trying to actually /learn/ by sitting
    >> in front of a computer is just a distraction, even back in the
    >> days before WWW. I can't imagine that /children/ learn any
    >> faster or better in front of a PC than by listening to a
    >> teacher and doing written assignments. Certainly all my
    >> anecdotal evidence points to that being the case.
    >>
    >> Learning is about understanding /principles/, not application.
    >>
    >>> Seems that schools are turning out script kiddies

    >>
    >> I doubt that any of them even know what a script is. Their
    >> definition of "programming" probably involves big shiny
    >> buttons and a rodent.

    >
    > Sounds like you had a good software programming foundation to
    > build the rest of your career on.


    A waste of time if you are becoming anything other than an engineer,Comp
    Sci major etc.

    > Computer is nothing more than a power tool. If one doesn't
    > understand principle, it serves them no more usefulness than a
    > desktop paperweight.


    A completely ludicrous statement at best.
    Why should a neurosurgeon need to know how the innards of his PC works?
    An accountant?
    An auto mechanic?
    A plumber?
    A financial planner.
    etc..


    This is preciously where you Linux advocates go right down the drain when
    it comes to advocating Linux.

    You just do not understand the market, the people, how business operates
    and what the real world is interested in doing.

    people don't care about operating systems, they care about turning the
    computer on and doing their job or entertainment.

    The computer has become a commodity just like a microwave oven.
    People use the computer to perform work via applications.

    When you Linux geeks start with modifying files, scripts etc the average
    person runs as fast as they can away.
    That's one reason Windows is so popular and people are not moving to Linux.

    Is it good to know how a computer works?
    Sure.
    It's also good to know how cars, ovens, plumbing etc works.
    Knowledge is never a bad thing.

    However, most people don't really care because they are too busy using
    these things to have the time to learn how they work.

    A first year accounting student doesn't have the time to learn programming.
    etc...





    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  9. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft Troll

    Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    > High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >
    >> Computer is nothing more than a power tool. If one doesn't
    >> understand principle, it serves them no more usefulness than
    >> a desktop paperweight.




    >> We had about 20,000 lines of uncommented FORTRAN-IV and IBM
    >> 360J Assembly code to deal with, added another 5,000.
    >>
    >> It would not have been possible if one did not understand
    >> principles of structured software design and wasn't willing
    >> to learn assembly. Again, coding is a technician's issue.

    >
    > A completely ludicrous statement at best. Why should a
    > neurosurgeon need to know how the innards of his PC works? An
    > accountant? An auto mechanic? A plumber? A financial planner.
    > etc..
    >
    > This is preciously where you


    are wrong. (Rest of troll gob****e snipped.)

    Interesting how this troll does severe snippage, sparing only 2
    of my statements. Then proceeds to jump off on a tangent, when
    context was regarding software programming, not the usual
    nonsense extolling the virtues of Microsoft Office use. Well I
    must admit, this troll is extolling the virtues of an idiot
    society of Windows users only following the Redmond book.

    http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2008/...arb-troll.html

    --
    HPT

  10. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft Troll

    High Plains Thumper wrote:
    > Interesting how this troll does severe snippage, sparing only 2 of my
    > statements. Then proceeds to jump off on a tangent, when context was
    > regarding software programming, not the usual nonsense extolling the
    > virtues of Microsoft Office use. Well I must admit, this troll is
    > extolling the virtues of an idiot society of Windows users only
    > following the Redmond book.
    >


    It's funny how I now view you just turning out to be a *clown* being
    lead by the nose. It looks like you don't have a life, and you come to
    Unset to be lead by the nose.

    Just because you were brainwashed by others, it doesn't make you an
    expert on anything Thumpy. When did you become an expert Thumpy? How
    does that happen Thumpy that you have made yourself an expert's expert?

  11. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft Troll

    On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 13:40:31 -0600, High Plains Thumper wrote:

    > Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >> High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >>
    >>> Computer is nothing more than a power tool. If one doesn't
    >>> understand principle, it serves them no more usefulness than
    >>> a desktop paperweight.

    >
    >
    >
    >>> We had about 20,000 lines of uncommented FORTRAN-IV and IBM
    >>> 360J Assembly code to deal with, added another 5,000.
    >>>
    >>> It would not have been possible if one did not understand
    >>> principles of structured software design and wasn't willing
    >>> to learn assembly. Again, coding is a technician's issue.

    >>
    >> A completely ludicrous statement at best. Why should a
    >> neurosurgeon need to know how the innards of his PC works? An
    >> accountant? An auto mechanic? A plumber? A financial planner.
    >> etc..
    >>
    >> This is preciously where you

    >
    > are wrong. (Rest of troll gob****e snipped.)
    >
    > Interesting how this troll does severe snippage, sparing only 2
    > of my statements. T


    The rest of your tripe was irrelevant based upon my comments on 2 of your
    idiotic statements.
    IOW you are not worth the time.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  12. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft Troll

    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    > High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >>> High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> We had about 20,000 lines of uncommented FORTRAN-IV and
    >>>> IBM 360J Assembly code to deal with, added another
    >>>> 5,000.
    >>>>
    >>>> It would not have been possible if one did not
    >>>> understand principles of structured software design and
    >>>> wasn't willing to learn assembly. Again, coding is a
    >>>> technician's issue.
    >>>
    >>> A completely ludicrous statement at best. Why should a
    >>> neurosurgeon need to know how the innards of his PC works?
    >>> An accountant? An auto mechanic? A plumber? A financial
    >>> planner. etc..
    >>>
    >>> This is preciously where you

    >>
    >> are wrong. (Rest of troll gob****e snipped.)
    >>
    >> Interesting how this troll does severe snippage, sparing
    >> only 2 of my statements. Then proceeds to jump off on a
    >> tangent, when context was regarding software programming,
    >> not the usual nonsense extolling the virtues of Microsoft
    >> Office use. Well I must admit, this troll is extolling the
    >> virtues of an idiot society of Windows users only following
    >> the Redmond book.
    >>
    >> http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2008/...arb-troll.html

    >
    > The rest of your tripe was irrelevant based upon my comments
    > on 2 of your idiotic statements. IOW you are not worth the
    > time.


    This is an example of:

    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/
    or http://tinyurl.com/4obfht

    7.6 Trespasser Disinformation Tactics

    12. Blame your stupidity and lies on your opponent. Blame your
    own stupidity on the Linux advocate you are dealing with. Such
    as when you have made an unsupportable claim that suggest a list
    of details and your are asked to present your non-existent list
    reply with, "I don't have to list them for you; you aren't bright
    enough to know what you're missing by using X instead of a real
    Y, I'm not going to explain it to you." Then hope that nobody
    reading the thread realizes that your statement translates as, "I
    lack the knowledge or facts needed to counter your position or
    your position is too complete and accurate to be refuted. So, I
    will say things to sound superior to avoid admitting you are right."
    --
    HPT

  13. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft Troll

    On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:30:47 -0600, High Plains Thumper wrote:

    > Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >> High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >>> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >>>> High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> We had about 20,000 lines of uncommented FORTRAN-IV and
    >>>>> IBM 360J Assembly code to deal with, added another
    >>>>> 5,000.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> It would not have been possible if one did not
    >>>>> understand principles of structured software design and
    >>>>> wasn't willing to learn assembly. Again, coding is a
    >>>>> technician's issue.
    >>>>
    >>>> A completely ludicrous statement at best. Why should a
    >>>> neurosurgeon need to know how the innards of his PC works?
    >>>> An accountant? An auto mechanic? A plumber? A financial
    >>>> planner. etc..
    >>>>
    >>>> This is preciously where you
    >>>
    >>> are wrong. (Rest of troll gob****e snipped.)
    >>>
    >>> Interesting how this troll does severe snippage, sparing
    >>> only 2 of my statements. Then proceeds to jump off on a
    >>> tangent, when context was regarding software programming,
    >>> not the usual nonsense extolling the virtues of Microsoft
    >>> Office use. Well I must admit, this troll is extolling the
    >>> virtues of an idiot society of Windows users only following
    >>> the Redmond book.
    >>>
    >>> http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2008/...arb-troll.html

    >>
    >> The rest of your tripe was irrelevant based upon my comments
    >> on 2 of your idiotic statements. IOW you are not worth the
    >> time.

    >
    > This is an example of:


    You sound like a broken record HPT.
    Give it up because going on the offensive, and you are quite offensive, is
    not going to cover up your trolling and nym shifting blunders no matter now
    many times you re-post the same text.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  14. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft in the UK (Schools and Free Software)

    High Plains Thumper espoused:
    > Homer wrote:
    >> Verily I say unto thee, that High Plains Thumper spake thusly:
    >>
    >>> It may be old school, but one does not need a special
    >>> software development application to program, if they learn
    >>> old school techniques. With proper technique, it does not
    >>> matter what code is used, assembly, C, FORTRAN, ALGOL,
    >>> BASIC, COBOL, FORTH, PL1, RPG, and etc. Coding is
    >>> technician work.

    >>
    >> As I've said before, for most of my first year at Uni, I
    >> didn't even /touch/ a computer, except for the end of week SML
    >> assignment, which took all of five minutes to copy from my
    >> jotter, and test before printing. I spent most of my lab time
    >> goofing off (i.e. hacking Kerberos auth tickets to make it
    >> seem like my popup Zephyr massages on other workstations were
    >> coming from the department head).
    >>
    >> I've always found that trying to actually /learn/ by sitting
    >> in front of a computer is just a distraction, even back in the
    >> days before WWW. I can't imagine that /children/ learn any
    >> faster or better in front of a PC than by listening to a
    >> teacher and doing written assignments. Certainly all my
    >> anecdotal evidence points to that being the case.
    >>
    >> Learning is about understanding /principles/, not application.
    >>
    >>> Seems that schools are turning out script kiddies

    >>
    >> I doubt that any of them even know what a script is. Their
    >> definition of "programming" probably involves big shiny
    >> buttons and a rodent.

    >
    > Sounds like you had a good software programming foundation to
    > build the rest of your career on.
    >
    > Computer is nothing more than a power tool. If one doesn't
    > understand principle, it serves them no more usefulness than a
    > desktop paperweight.


    This is really the point I was at. We should be teaching that idea that
    a computer is a tool at primary education, with perhaps a little "this
    is the internet" and so on, and "these are the kinds of interfaces you
    find". General stuff, with plenty of real examples, and then maybe iced
    with "how to put it all together".

    One of the most important things is for children to understand that
    their phone is a computer, their game console is a computer, their TV is
    (probably) a computer, even their washing machine is probably controlled
    by a computer, their family car-engine is probably managed by a computer
    and so on.

    Recent Becta activity seems to have reduced it all to learning Word,
    Powerpoint and so on, which by the time these kids are in a real job,
    will be part of history, just like the Commodore PET, Dragon32 and
    Honeywell mainframes around my (secondary) school.

    Secondary education should look more at what's in a computer (processor,
    storage, i/o) and maybe look at simple programming tools, and an
    introduction to programming. At that stage, it could be as useful to
    binary-input machine code into a Z80-based machine as anything else, at
    least to get a real feel for how the damn thing really works!





    >>
    >> Although I rarely attended any, I still remember the Demo
    >> Scene parties in the 80's (still going strong today), where
    >> coders produced the most amazing demos in just 4k of RAM. Pity
    >> the Vole seems to hire the afore -mentioned Visual Basic
    >> "receptionists" instead of ex-sceners, otherwise they might
    >> not produce so much Bloatware.


    I think that the focus in Microsoft has been almost entirely on gloss
    and not on underlying architectures, in fact, the desire to embed IE
    into the OS, as an example, has lead to a tortured mess which has become
    unsustainable. Microsoft might well have recruited some brilliant
    coders, but they've been ill-used, I suspect.

    >>
    >>> This is one of the reasons why Linux is much more efficient
    >>> at tasks than Windows. At 2 MB, Beryl is a good example of
    >>> efficient 3D desktop work.

    >>
    >> It does highlight one of the more pronounced technical
    >> differences between the Linux and Windows development
    >> methodologies, ostensibly at least.

    >
    > I was able to speed up data acquisition channel scanning from
    > 50,000 to 130,000 aggregate channels per second on this 2 MIP
    > minicomputer with 2 MB RAM, by careful use of embedded assembly
    > to replace FORTRAN library calls in the scan loop and breaking
    > out the tape write routine as a separate task trap triggered by
    > queued intertask communications.
    >
    > Accorded, I doubt but only a few Windows developers know about
    > assembly language (or how to optimally use low level programming
    > languages like "C". One can create *bloat* with any programming
    > language.)
    >


    Assembly is worth knowing about, but it really does then need some
    knowledge about compilers and how they make function calls and so on.
    Writing assembly is not quick, though...

    --
    | mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
    | Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
    | Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
    | Open platforms prevent vendor lock-in. Own your Own services! |


  15. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft Troll

    Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    > High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >>> High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >>>> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >>>>> High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> We had about 20,000 lines of uncommented FORTRAN-IV
    >>>>>> and IBM 360J Assembly code to deal with, added
    >>>>>> another 5,000.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> It would not have been possible if one did not
    >>>>>> understand principles of structured software design
    >>>>>> and wasn't willing to learn assembly. Again, coding
    >>>>>> is a technician's issue.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> A completely ludicrous statement at best. Why should a
    >>>>> neurosurgeon need to know how the innards of his PC
    >>>>> works? An accountant? An auto mechanic? A plumber? A
    >>>>> financial planner. etc..
    >>>>>
    >>>>> This is preciously where you
    >>>>
    >>>> are wrong. (Rest of troll gob****e snipped.)
    >>>>
    >>>> Interesting how this troll does severe snippage, sparing
    >>>> only 2 of my statements. Then proceeds to jump off on
    >>>> a tangent, when context was regarding software
    >>>> programming, not the usual nonsense extolling the
    >>>> virtues of Microsoft Office use. Well I must admit,
    >>>> this troll is extolling the virtues of an idiot society
    >>>> of Windows users only following the Redmond book.
    >>>>
    >>>> http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2008/...arb-troll.html
    >>>
    >>> The rest of your tripe was irrelevant based upon my
    >>> comments on 2 of your idiotic statements. IOW you are not
    >>> worth the time.

    >>
    >> This is an example of:
    >>
    >> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ or
    >> http://tinyurl.com/4obfht
    >>
    >>
    7.6 Trespasser Disinformation Tactics
    >>
    >> 12. Blame your stupidity and lies on your opponent. Blame
    >> your own stupidity on the Linux advocate you are dealing
    >> with. Such as when you have made an unsupportable claim
    >> that suggest a list of details and your are asked to present
    >> your non-existent list reply with, "I don't have to list
    >> them for you; you aren't bright enough to know what you're
    >> missing by using X instead of a real Y, I'm not going to
    >> explain it to you." Then hope that nobody reading the thread
    >> realizes that your statement translates as, "I lack the
    >> knowledge or facts needed to counter your position or your
    >> position is too complete and accurate to be refuted. So, I
    >> will say things to sound superior to avoid admitting you are
    >> right."

    >
    > You sound like a broken record HPT. Give it up because going
    > on the offensive, and you are quite offensive, is not going to
    > cover up your trolling and nym shifting blunders no matter now
    > many times you re-post the same text.


    Ah, again this troll makes no sense, grasping for straws with
    baseless accusations. This is an example of:

    [1.] Act offended or claim that opposing viewpoints are
    incredible and/or unbelievable. When you are unable to valid
    argument to refute a Linux advocate, use empty statements such as:
    * "OH PULEEEZE!"
    * "Only a Linonut would say that"
    * "And they wonder why no one takes Linux seriously!"
    * "How dare you say that!"
    * "That's the way to offend thousands!"

    [6.] When your tactics are turned on you, call you opponents
    trolls. Do not accept the fact that by calling someone using
    your tactics a troll that makes you the real troll.

    --
    HPT

  16. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft Troll

    High Plains Thumper wrote:



    Someone should put a and kick some sense into you.

  17. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft Troll

    chrisv wrote:
    > High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >>> High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >>>> Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >>>>> High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >>>>>> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >>>>>>> High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> We had about 20,000 lines of uncommented
    >>>>>>>> FORTRAN-IV and IBM 360J Assembly code to deal
    >>>>>>>> with, added another 5,000.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> It would not have been possible if one did not
    >>>>>>>> understand principles of structured software
    >>>>>>>> design and wasn't willing to learn assembly.
    >>>>>>>> Again, coding is a technician's issue.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> A completely ludicrous statement at best. Why
    >>>>>>> should a neurosurgeon need to know how the innards
    >>>>>>> of his PC works? An accountant? An auto mechanic?
    >>>>>>> A plumber? A financial planner. etc..
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> This is preciously where you
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> are wrong. (Rest of troll gob****e snipped.)




    >>>>> The rest of your tripe was irrelevant based upon my
    >>>>> comments on 2 of your idiotic statements. IOW you are
    >>>>> not worth the time.
    >>>>
    >>>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/
    >>>> or http://tinyurl.com/4obfht




    >>> You sound like a broken record HPT. Give it up because
    >>> going on the offensive, and you are quite offensive, is
    >>> not going to cover up your trolling and nym shifting
    >>> blunders no matter now many times you re-post the same
    >>> text.

    >>
    >> Ah, again this troll makes no sense, grasping for straws
    >> with baseless accusations. This is an example of:
    >>
    >> [1.] Act offended or claim that opposing viewpoints are
    >> incredible and/or unbelievable. When you are unable to valid
    >> argument to refute a Linux advocate, use empty statements
    >> such as: * "OH PULEEEZE!" * "Only a Linonut would say that"
    >> * "And they wonder why no one takes Linux seriously!" * "How
    >> dare you say that!" * "That's the way to offend thousands!"
    >>
    >> [6.] When your tactics are turned on you, call you opponents
    >> trolls. Do not accept the fact that by calling someone
    >> using your tactics a troll that makes you the real troll.

    >
    >


    [NOT]

    > Someone should put a and kick some sense
    > into you.


    This is an example of:

    http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killf..._troll_faq.htm'

    Subject: 7.5 Sockpuppet

    A Sockpuppet is when a poster has several usenet identities,
    either just different names and email addresses from a single
    account. Alternatively several email identities with valid email
    addresses and email accounts.
    and theft of chrisv's nym, which is an example of:

    Subject: 3.5 The evil and illegal Troll

    If anyone does anything which will interfere with the
    troll's ability to cause mayhem, they also forge posts in
    that persons name and internet address and libel them on
    usenet. Both these are illegal.
    --
    HPT

  18. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft Troll

    High Plains Thumper wrote:
    > chrisv wrote:
    >
    >> Someone should put a and kick some sense
    >> into you.

    >
    > This is an example of:
    >
    > http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killf..._troll_faq.htm'
    >
    >
    > Subject: 7.5 Sockpuppet
    >
    > A Sockpuppet is when a poster has several usenet identities, either just
    > different names and email addresses from a single account.
    > Alternatively several email identities with valid email addresses and
    > email accounts.
    >
    >
    > and theft of chrisv's nym, which is an example of:
    >
    >
    > Subject: 3.5 The evil and illegal Troll
    >
    > If anyone does anything which will interfere with the
    > troll's ability to cause mayhem, they also forge posts in
    > that persons name and internet address and libel them on
    > usenet. Both these are illegal.
    >
    >


    You are some kind of a nut to even post this. What are you doing stupid
    Thumpy running up and down the threads posting this? What are you on
    some kind of a ridiculous crusade, which resembles Linux pushing? You
    learned well.

    I think you are starting to loose it particularly so when you came to a
    MS NG and started posting about people being trolls. You went over the
    edge there.

    I think they have pushed you over the edge Thumpy and you're not High
    Plains Thumpy anymore. You're just Thumpy now. There is nothing high and
    mighty about you and Linux can't help you achieve either.

  19. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft Troll

    * The fake chrisv peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > I think they have pushed you over the edge Thumpy and you're not High
    > Plains Thumpy anymore. You're just Thumpy now. There is nothing high and
    > mighty about you and Linux can't help you achieve either.


    You can change your news service, fakeboi, but you forgot to hide your
    posting host.

    --
    Whether it's Google or Apple or free software, we've got some fantastic
    competitors and it keeps us on our toes.
    -- Bill Gates

  20. Re: [News] Another Big Blow to Microsoft Troll

    chrisv wrote:

    > High Plains Thumper wrote:
    >> chrisv wrote:
    >>
    >>> Someone should put a and kick some sense into
    >>> you.

    >>
    >> This is an example of:
    >>
    >> http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killf..._troll_faq.htm'
    >>
    >>
    >> Subject: 7.5 Sockpuppet
    >>
    >> A Sockpuppet is when a poster has several usenet identities, either
    >> just different names and email addresses from a single account.
    >> Alternatively several email identities with valid email addresses and
    >> email accounts.
    >>
    >> and theft of chrisv's nym, which is an example of:
    >>
    >>
    >> Subject: 3.5 The evil and illegal Troll
    >>
    >> If anyone does anything which will interfere with the troll's ability
    >> to cause mayhem, they also forge posts in that persons name and
    >> internet address and libel them on usenet. Both these are illegal.
    >>
    >>

    > You are some kind of a nut to even post this. What are you doing stupid
    > Thumpy running up and down the threads posting this? What are you on
    > some kind of a ridiculous crusade, which resembles Linux pushing? You
    > learned well.


    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/
    or http://tinyurl.com/4obfht

    7.6 Trespasser Disinformation Tactics

    This is a list of the disinformation tactics that the that the anti-Linux
    propagandists who post in COLA have been using. All of these tactics have
    been used in COLA by the anti-Linux propagandists against the Linux
    advocates and the rest of the COLA readership to further the cause of the
    anti-Linux propagandists. This list has been worded as though you are one
    of them, so that you can better see through their eyes how they think.

    [1.] Act offended or claim that opposing viewpoints areincredible and/or
    unbelievable. When you are unable to valid argument to refute a
    Linux advocate, use empty statements such as:
    * "OH PULEEEZE!"
    * "Only a Linonut would say that"
    * "And they wonder why no one takes Linux seriously!"
    * "How dare you say that!"
    * "That's the way to offend thousands!"

    > I think you are starting to loose it particularly so when you came to a
    > MS NG and started posting about people being trolls. You went over the
    > edge there.
    >
    > I think they have pushed you over the edge Thumpy and you're not High
    > Plains Thumpy anymore. You're just Thumpy now. There is nothing high and
    > mighty about you and Linux can't help you achieve either.


    [2.] Distract your opponent from the issues at hand by accusing your
    opponents of being "petty", "pathetic", "childish" or any of a number
    of other such terms.

    [4.] Be patronizing, condescending and present an air of superiority. It
    may hide your inferiority to the casual reader. Use phrases like
    "kid" or "son", to elevate your relative apparent authority by
    attempting to diminish that of the Linux advocate you are
    addressing.
    --
    HPT

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