1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity - Linux

This is a discussion on 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity - Linux ; I has just occurred to me that Windows was left somewhat behind in the 'dark ages' of the CLI. For example, in order to obtain the MAC address of a network device in Linux, one just need to click on ...

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Thread: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

  1. 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    I has just occurred to me that Windows was left somewhat behind in the 'dark
    ages' of the CLI. For example, in order to obtain the MAC address of a network
    device in Linux, one just need to click on buttons and follow the GUIs. Nice
    and easy, right?

    In Windows, on the other hand, one needs to be a command-line Guru, realising
    that to fetch _an address_, one needs to click on Start (start /what/? Isn't
    that an address you're trying to fetch?), then follow through to "Run..." (eh?
    Like running in the street? I'm just trying to fetch an address, damn it.),
    then tap in cmd (blech! What does that cryptic thing mean at all?), click OK
    and then face a very ugly screen that does not integrate with the desktop
    (it's a legacy rusty misfit). Then, one need to tap on the keyboard, inputting
    all kind of characters (not even English) followed by special options (and
    dare not to type the wrong type of slash, which varies depending on your
    keyboard). Then, *bang*. A whole bunch of technical text with cryptic device
    names and all sorts of code! The scroll bar is sure to be needed because of
    all the spurious stuff that will get displayed. There is no graphical
    indication of the type of devices at hand. Just text with names of Great and
    Wonderful Companies. You'd better get all of this right though because
    otherwise, you won't have that same pleasure that Linux users had when they
    just clicked on a few graphical icons (yes, pretty pictures) to get the very
    same thing faster.

    And they say Windows is intuitive.

  2. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    > I has just occurred to me that Windows was left somewhat behind in
    > the 'dark ages' of the CLI. For example, in order to obtain the
    > MAC address of a network device in Linux, one just need to click
    > on buttons and follow the GUIs. Nice and easy, right?
    >
    > In Windows, on the other hand, one needs to be a command-line Guru,


    Start, Control Panel, Network Connections, Local Area Connection*,
    click the "Support" tab, then click "Details...".

    * - assuming you haven't renamed the interface to something else.

  3. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 06:41:53 +0100, Roy Schestowitz
    wrote:

    >I has just occurred to me that Windows was left somewhat behind in the 'dark
    >ages' of the CLI. For example, in order to obtain the MAC address of a network
    >device in Linux, one just need to click on buttons and follow the GUIs. Nice
    >and easy, right?
    >

    //snipped for brevity//

    Roy, I truly admire all the work you do for Linux Advocacy, however, I
    am in a state of frustration right at the present over a couple of Linux
    complexity's that I find unacceptable.

    I just installed Debian 4.0R1 on this machine, (though I am writing this
    in Windows XP - Forte Agent). I installed Pan so that I could read the
    Linux newsgroups, and it downloaded the last 5 days of messages with no
    problem.

    In one of the messages, a You-Tube url was given. I clicked on the
    reference, and it took me to the You-Tube site. However, it would not
    play the movie (in Epiphany) because it said that I did not have the
    latest Flash player. I can understand that. I went to the reference
    and downloaded the tar-gz file, then opened the file and it created a
    folder with three files in it.

    Now here is where Linux is NOT simple, NOT easy. I could not, and have
    not yet found those three files or the directory where they're located.
    I did a file search and it showed that the files are out there, but,
    when I opened a terminal, I could not get to them. Okay, I give up.

    Next, I did a check and it seems that Firefox is installed somewhere on
    the machine. Hmmmmmmmmmm......... the opening icon is nowhere to be
    found. I go to the install mechanism, and it appears that Firefox's
    name has been changed to IceWeasel - however, it does not have the Flash
    plugin installed either.

    So, to make a seemingly long story short - I gave up, and returned to
    Forte Agent - where, should I run across that You-Tube url again, I'm
    sure that if I click on the url, that I will immediately be taken to
    You-Tube and Firefox will definitely play that movie.

    Two factors that hinder any distribution of Linux from being totally
    accepted and spread to others is its lack of consistancy and simplicity.
    For instance: If I unRAR a file in Windows, I know where the files will
    be placed, because it asks me where I want to put them. There is no
    such choice in Debian. And, why, on an inital install, must I search
    out and install various plug-ins just to watch a You-tube movie?

    I will keep pressing on towards mastering Linux, however, in order to
    preclude frustration at not being able to accomplish simple tasks - on
    the spot, I must keep Microsoft Windows available.

    And keep up the good work, Roy!

    Bill Powell
    Systems Managemnt Analyst
    MSgt USAF, Ret (1979)
    GS-12 - USA, Ret (1996)

  4. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    ____/ wjp on Monday 24 September 2007 00:24 : \____

    > On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 06:41:53 +0100, Roy Schestowitz
    > wrote:
    >
    >>I has just occurred to me that Windows was left somewhat behind in the 'dark
    >>ages' of the CLI. For example, in order to obtain the MAC address of a
    >>network device in Linux, one just need to click on buttons and follow the
    >>GUIs. Nice and easy, right?
    >>

    > //snipped for brevity//
    >
    > Roy, I truly admire all the work you do for Linux Advocacy, however, I
    > am in a state of frustration right at the present over a couple of Linux
    > complexity's that I find unacceptable.
    >
    > I just installed Debian 4.0R1 on this machine, (though I am writing this
    > in Windows XP - Forte Agent). I installed Pan so that I could read the
    > Linux newsgroups, and it downloaded the last 5 days of messages with no
    > problem.
    >
    > In one of the messages, a You-Tube url was given. I clicked on the
    > reference, and it took me to the You-Tube site. However, it would not
    > play the movie (in Epiphany) because it said that I did not have the
    > latest Flash player. I can understand that. I went to the reference
    > and downloaded the tar-gz file, then opened the file and it created a
    > folder with three files in it.


    To be fair, on a fresh installation of Windows, this would not have worked
    either. With IE, the user would be referred to Adobe's Web site (or otherwise
    it might have to be common knowledge, possibly a shout to the next-door
    neighbour) and then follow what has become a /familiar/ Windows installation
    procedure (lest we forget that there has been some consistency since Windows
    3, so we take difficulty -- or lack thereof -- for granted). Firefox on
    Windows tends to suggest that the user downloads plugins and it has a
    user-friendly way of doing this.

    Now, at this point, it ought to be mentioned that Debian was never optimised to
    serve our less computer savvy relatives and friends. It's also not attempting
    to looks familiar (i.e. "like Windows") or simplified for computer-illeterate
    users. It's just not the audience that many developers have in mind, which is
    why diversity exists among distributions.

    A distribution like Mint Linux takes Ubuntu and assumes that Tom, Dick and
    Harry (the target audience) will not mind binary blobs like Flash, which work
    out of the box. In Ubuntu, if I recall correctly, Flash installation is
    proposed automatically (a GUI thing), or is maybe available from the package
    manager (a box-ticking thing). I can't recall for sure and new versions keep
    improving. For example, MP3 support and other codecs can be enabled via popups
    that show up automatically when they are needed.

    > Now here is where Linux is NOT simple, NOT easy. I could not, and have
    > not yet found those three files or the directory where they're located.
    > I did a file search and it showed that the files are out there, but,
    > when I opened a terminal, I could not get to them. Okay, I give up.


    Some of these hurdles that you found in Debian you could possibly just leap by
    purchasing (hypothetically) a PC that was built to include various addons
    (like OEMs do with Windows). That's why the fight for the OEMs is so crucial
    and it's gradually being won (Lenovo made difference last year and Dell opened
    the floodgates this year... to be followed by Epson, H-P, Lenovo's bigger
    commitments, Acer... even rumours and plans at Toshiba, among others).

    > Next, I did a check and it seems that Firefox is installed somewhere on
    > the machine. Hmmmmmmmmmm......... the opening icon is nowhere to be
    > found. I go to the install mechanism, and it appears that Firefox's
    > name has been changed to IceWeasel - however, it does not have the Flash
    > plugin installed either.
    >
    > So, to make a seemingly long story short - I gave up, and returned to
    > Forte Agent - where, should I run across that You-Tube url again, I'm
    > sure that if I click on the url, that I will immediately be taken to
    > You-Tube and Firefox will definitely play that movie.


    One thing to bear in mind is that it takes time to set up a Linux PC for all
    your needs to be served and the same applied to Windows, especially if you
    build it from scratch. Once it's set up, Linux will run for years without a
    problem. I don't think I have installed anything on this box that I use at the
    moment for several months. Based on my experience, the same cannot be said
    about Windows, which tends to complicate its own state. At some stage,
    starting from scratch again is the wiser choice, price- and time-wise.

    > Two factors that hinder any distribution of Linux from being totally
    > accepted and spread to others is its lack of consistancy and simplicity.
    > For instance: If I unRAR a file in Windows, I know where the files will
    > be placed, because it asks me where I want to put them. There is no
    > such choice in Debian. And, why, on an inital install, must I search
    > out and install various plug-ins just to watch a You-tube movie?


    I am surprised that downloading a compressed set of files is the route to
    installing Flash in Debian. There ought to be a better way and I wonder if
    Debian has Flash in the repository.

    Oh, I've just had a certain picture brought back to mind... in Ubuntu 7.10 (out
    next month), when Flash is needed, a GUI then appears saying that you need X
    or Y to play it. It gives you the option to choose between gnash (open source
    and free, GPLv3-licensed) and Adobe Flash (proprietary). All one has to do is
    check the box and voila! Flash support is there. Installed. It would be nice
    if Debian developers adopted (reused) that same type of mechanism.

    > I will keep pressing on towards mastering Linux, however, in order to
    > preclude frustration at not being able to accomplish simple tasks - on
    > the spot, I must keep Microsoft Windows available.
    >
    > And keep up the good work, Roy!


    It's always hardest at the start. This can be interpreted in two ways, both of
    which are true:

    - You do the most work (or experience the most frustration) when you set up a
    new box or customise it for your needs (my desktop is a very odd one because
    it's optimised to suit my workflow).

    - You do the least work and accept the steep learning curve when you start
    using Linux. When changing distributions, however, there is merely no
    difference whatsoever. It's like switching between Win2K and XP. Many
    people do it on a daily basis (e.g. in public clusters) and they obliviously
    lose all awareness of the differences. The Portland project will further
    bridge the gap between GNOME and KDE, over time.

    --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | No SCO code was used to generate this sig
    http://Schestowitz.com | Free as in Free Beer | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    Cpu(s): 26.4%us, 4.7%sy, 1.0%ni, 63.3%id, 4.1%wa, 0.3%hi, 0.2%si, 0.0%st
    http://iuron.com - semantic engine to gather information

  5. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    After takin' a swig o' grog, wjp belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > Two factors that hinder any distribution of Linux from being totally
    > accepted and spread to others is its lack of consistancy and simplicity.
    > For instance: If I unRAR a file in Windows, I know where the files will
    > be placed, because it asks me where I want to put them. There is no
    > such choice in Debian. And, why, on an inital install, must I search
    > out and install various plug-ins just to watch a You-tube movie?
    >
    > I will keep pressing on towards mastering Linux, however, in order to
    > preclude frustration at not being able to accomplish simple tasks - on
    > the spot, I must keep Microsoft Windows available.
    >
    > And keep up the good work, Roy!
    >
    > Bill Powell
    > Systems Managemnt Analyst
    > MSgt USAF, Ret (1979)
    > GS-12 - USA, Ret (1996)


    Nice troll. You mispelled "Management" in your fake signature,
    though. Plus, your story makes it difficult to believe you are a
    "Systems Management Analyst".

    --
    Tux rox!

  6. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    Linonut wrote:
    > After takin' a swig o' grog, wjp belched out this bit o' wisdom:


    >> Bill Powell
    >> Systems Managemnt Analyst
    >> MSgt USAF, Ret (1979)
    >> GS-12 - USA, Ret (1996)

    >
    > Nice troll. You mispelled "Management" in your fake signature,
    > though. Plus, your story makes it difficult to believe you are a
    > "Systems Management Analyst".


    Talk about seeing only what you want to see...





  7. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 01:13:52 GMT, Linonut wrote:

    >After takin' a swig o' grog, wjp belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> Bill Powell
    >> Systems Managemnt Analyst
    >> MSgt USAF, Ret (1979)
    >> GS-12 - USA, Ret (1996)

    >
    >Nice troll. You mispelled "Management" in your fake signature,
    >though. Plus, your story makes it difficult to believe you are a
    >"Systems Management Analyst".


    Well, Linonut, I've been retired since 1996 and my sperl chekr just
    wasn't working right yesterday. You can check my posting history, and
    you'll find that I do so very seldom, because I know, from reading posts
    day after day, that I would receive exactly the response you made.

    It is people, such as yourself, that can immediately turn people against
    anything Linux - especially with the type of comments you made.

    I am willing. I am trying. I have been working in, around, and on
    computers since 1964 - mostly as a user. I attended an Air Force
    Systems Analysis and Design course (7 weeks) in 1973. That is the only
    formal training I have ever received. The remainder of my knowledge was
    received by "self teaching". Towards the end of my career, I was
    responsible for the computer hardware of a 75-person office - yes, a
    "help desk" type of deal. I had user experience with Unix System 5 from
    1985 to 1992 - and, I was the only one in the office who was willing to
    trust Unix to produce a final report - everyone else was busy jumping on
    the Windows bandwagon - using 286 and 386 PC's.

    My signature is not a fake. You sir, might try opening up your mind a
    bit, and perhaps, like Roy, take the posts for what they're worth,
    rather than immediately assuming the worst.

    I know there are many posters to this news group who, for whatever
    motive, are detrimental to the advance of Linux (to say the least). I
    have installed Linux (multi-boot) many, many times over the past years,
    but it has not been until recently that I have found that Linux is the
    ONLY way to go - it is the wave of the future (to use a hackneyed
    phrase). My biggest hurdle is that of trying to learn Linux, and, at
    the same time, making sure that I can do "things" without interruption
    or delay.

    I have the CD's/DVD's for at least ten various distributions. I
    installed Debian 4.0R1 because I assumed (yes, I do that too, Roy),
    that, since it was the latest and greatest, it would be the most usable
    of all. Okay, I made a mistake. Now, back to the drawing board.

    I've accumulated/home-built seven PC's - all of them have various
    distributions of Linux installed, as a minimum. Then there's my
    Presario 1235 laptop - which I'm in the process of installing either
    Puppy or DSL. My home is hard-wired for a network of four PC's using a
    router and a switch through a cable modem to the internet.

    I don't have a serious NEED to move directly into Linux as I am retired,
    and my computers are mostly a hobby. Eventually, I plan to build a web
    site, but, then again, there's that learning curve - and, at three-score
    and five years old, I'm not sure I'll ever make it.

    Perhaps my decision to post here was in error. I debated posting
    questions to comp.os.linux.misc - and that will be my next action, since
    I've still not found those missing files. I believe that advocacy
    should be realistic and down-to-earth. If anything, my original post
    was an attempt to provide a realistic example of what can happen with
    Linux - which was in direct opposition to the OP. Frustration overcame
    common sense, in this case.

    And, Linonut, here's my e-mail address - and, if you have time, check it
    out - it's valid: wjp1942 at knology dot net. I have had that e-mail
    address for at least five years.

    Happy Linux, all.

    Bill P.
    (enough of the ego stuff).

  8. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    After takin' a swig o' grog, wjp belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 01:13:52 GMT, Linonut wrote:
    >
    >>After takin' a swig o' grog, wjp belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>
    >>> Bill Powell
    >>> Systems Managemnt Analyst
    >>> MSgt USAF, Ret (1979)
    >>> GS-12 - USA, Ret (1996)

    >
    > My signature is not a fake. You sir, might try opening up your mind a
    > bit, and perhaps, like Roy, take the posts for what they're worth,
    > rather than immediately assuming the worst.


    It doesn't matter. No one makes an official signature, at least a
    long-lived one, and then leaves a spelling error like that in it.
    Not believable, not even if I were Navy.

    > Happy Linux, all.
    >
    > Bill P.
    > (enough of the ego stuff).


    --
    Tux rox!

  9. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    ____/ Linonut on Monday 24 September 2007 12:12 : \____

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, wjp belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 01:13:52 GMT, Linonut wrote:
    >>
    >>>After takin' a swig o' grog, wjp belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>>
    >>>> Bill Powell
    >>>> Systems Managemnt Analyst
    >>>> MSgt USAF, Ret (1979)
    >>>> GS-12 - USA, Ret (1996)

    >>
    >> My signature is not a fake. You sir, might try opening up your mind a
    >> bit, and perhaps, like Roy, take the posts for what they're worth,
    >> rather than immediately assuming the worst.

    >
    > It doesn't matter. No one makes an official signature, at least a
    > long-lived one, and then leaves a spelling error like that in it.
    > Not believable, not even if I were Navy.


    Don't know if it's a waterskidoo-like 'persona', but some people write their
    signature manually, esp. if they do not post regularly.

    One of the _greatest_ harms of newsgroup trolls is that they lead to such
    suspicion and discrimination against new posters (prejudice). It has to be
    understood that many new names are being used to just tease, so it's hard to
    tell apart.

    >> Happy Linux, all.
    >>
    >> Bill P.
    >> (enough of the ego stuff).


    --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | Windows: slippery when dry. You have been warned.
    http://Schestowitz.com | Free as in Free Beer | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    Load average (/proc/loadavg): 1.61 2.24 2.45 3/160 29680
    http://iuron.com - semantic search engine project initiative

  10. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:12:32 GMT, Linonut wrote:

    >After takin' a swig o' grog, wjp belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 01:13:52 GMT, Linonut wrote:
    >>
    >>>After takin' a swig o' grog, wjp belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>>
    >>>> Bill Powell
    >>>> Systems Managemnt Analyst
    >>>> MSgt USAF, Ret (1979)
    >>>> GS-12 - USA, Ret (1996)

    >>
    >> My signature is not a fake. You sir, might try opening up your mind a
    >> bit, and perhaps, like Roy, take the posts for what they're worth,
    >> rather than immediately assuming the worst.

    >
    >It doesn't matter. No one makes an official signature, at least a
    >long-lived one, and then leaves a spelling error like that in it.
    >Not believable, not even if I were Navy.



    Believable or not, I goofed. No, I don't have a formal sig file - but,
    if I did have one, it would be this:

    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
    proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in
    everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to
    investigation." (Attributed to Herbert Spencer)

    Bill P.
    (Posting on Monday morning - yes, I truly am retired!)

  11. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity


    "Roy Schestowitz" wrote in message
    news:2294287.n5kFjfAd9x@schestowitz.com...
    >I has just occurred to me that Windows was left somewhat behind in the
    >'dark
    > ages' of the CLI.


    And it just occurred to me that Roy Schestowitz is perhaps the biggest idiot
    on the planet.


    > For example, in order to obtain the MAC address of a network
    > device in Linux, one just need to click on buttons and follow the GUIs.
    > Nice
    > and easy, right?


    So it's just like the way that Windows has done it for say... about 15 years
    now.


    > In Windows, on the other hand, one needs to be a command-line Guru,
    > realising
    > that to fetch _an address_, one needs to click on Start (start /what/?
    > Isn't
    > that an address you're trying to fetch?), then follow through to "Run..."
    > (eh?
    > Like running in the street? I'm just trying to fetch an address, damn
    > it.),
    > then tap in cmd (blech! What does that cryptic thing mean at all?), click
    > OK
    > and then face a very ugly screen that does not integrate with the desktop
    > (it's a legacy rusty misfit). Then, one need to tap on the keyboard,
    > inputting
    > all kind of characters (not even English) followed by special options (and
    > dare not to type the wrong type of slash, which varies depending on your
    > keyboard). Then, *bang*. A whole bunch of technical text with cryptic
    > device
    > names and all sorts of code! The scroll bar is sure to be needed because
    > of
    > all the spurious stuff that will get displayed. There is no graphical
    > indication of the type of devices at hand. Just text with names of Great
    > and
    > Wonderful Companies. You'd better get all of this right though because
    > otherwise, you won't have that same pleasure that Linux users had when
    > they
    > just clicked on a few graphical icons (yes, pretty pictures) to get the
    > very
    > same thing faster.


    Only a complete moron would do it this way which probably explains why this
    is your preferred method of getting the IP address. Anyone with half a brain
    would simply get the network adapter properties from the Control Panel
    applet. Yes - more proof that the liar Roy Schestowitz is the dumbest of the
    dumb.



    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  12. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    On 2007-09-23, wjp wrote:
    > On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 06:41:53 +0100, Roy Schestowitz
    > wrote:
    >
    >>I has just occurred to me that Windows was left somewhat behind in the 'dark
    >>ages' of the CLI. For example, in order to obtain the MAC address of a network
    >>device in Linux, one just need to click on buttons and follow the GUIs. Nice
    >>and easy, right?
    >>

    > //snipped for brevity//
    >
    > Roy, I truly admire all the work you do for Linux Advocacy, however, I
    > am in a state of frustration right at the present over a couple of Linux
    > complexity's that I find unacceptable.
    >
    > I just installed Debian 4.0R1 on this machine, (though I am writing this
    > in Windows XP - Forte Agent). I installed Pan so that I could read the
    > Linux newsgroups, and it downloaded the last 5 days of messages with no
    > problem.
    >
    > In one of the messages, a You-Tube url was given. I clicked on the
    > reference, and it took me to the You-Tube site. However, it would not
    > play the movie (in Epiphany) because it said that I did not have the
    > latest Flash player. I can understand that. I went to the reference
    > and downloaded the tar-gz file, then opened the file and it created a
    > folder with three files in it.
    >
    > Now here is where Linux is NOT simple, NOT easy. I could not, and have


    The default download handler will be the gnome version of winzip.
    If you choose not to use that, the default download location will be the
    DESKTOP. You don't have to look for anything...

    > not yet found those three files or the directory where they're located.


    Total bull****.

    > I did a file search and it showed that the files are out there, but,
    > when I opened a terminal, I could not get to them. Okay, I give up.


    Now running the installer could be a problem for the n00b.

    Although this is still primarily a packaging problem, a 3rd party
    vendor packaging problem and doesn't really have anything to do
    with Linux.

    >
    > Next, I did a check and it seems that Firefox is installed somewhere on
    > the machine. Hmmmmmmmmmm......... the opening icon is nowhere to be
    > found. I go to the install mechanism, and it appears that Firefox's


    Try "Applications-> Internet" in the main menu.

    [deletia]

    When you tell lies about Debian. Next time make sure there are
    no Debian users in the room next time.

    --

    iTunes is not progressive. It's a throwback. |||
    / | \

  13. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    wjp wrote:

    >I have the CD's/DVD's for at least ten various distributions. I
    >installed Debian 4.0R1 because I assumed (yes, I do that too, Roy),
    >that, since it was the latest and greatest, it would be the most usable
    >of all. Okay, I made a mistake. Now, back to the drawing board.
    >
    >I've accumulated/home-built seven PC's - all of them have various
    >distributions of Linux installed, as a minimum.


    You've been interested in Linux for some time, yet you have not groked
    that there are distros that are easier to use (Mepis, Ubuntu, PCLOS),
    and distros that are better-left to those with more experience (Slack,
    Debian, Gentoo)?

    I recommend PCLOS. Things like u-tube videos work "right out of the
    box".


  14. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity


    "chrisv" wrote in message
    news:clhff3ppr5ffpsaaevfudl9cdeg99eavar@4ax.com...
    > wjp wrote:
    >
    >>I have the CD's/DVD's for at least ten various distributions. I
    >>installed Debian 4.0R1 because I assumed (yes, I do that too, Roy),
    >>that, since it was the latest and greatest, it would be the most usable
    >>of all. Okay, I made a mistake. Now, back to the drawing board.
    >>
    >>I've accumulated/home-built seven PC's - all of them have various
    >>distributions of Linux installed, as a minimum.

    >
    > You've been interested in Linux for some time, yet you have not groked
    > that there are distros that are easier to use (Mepis, Ubuntu, PCLOS),
    > and distros that are better-left to those with more experience (Slack,
    > Debian, Gentoo)?


    Ladies and Gentlemen, it's time to do the Distro Shuffle!!!


    > I recommend PCLOS. Things like u-tube videos work "right out
    > of the box".


    But a bunch of other stuff is broken "right out of the box" so you'll be
    right back doing the Distro Shuffle!!! - Looking for that needle in the
    haystack that actually works with your hardware.




    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  15. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Sir Michael Clayton belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > "chrisv" wrote in message
    >>
    >> You've been interested in Linux for some time, yet you have not groked
    >> that there are distros that are easier to use (Mepis, Ubuntu, PCLOS),
    >> and distros that are better-left to those with more experience (Slack,
    >> Debian, Gentoo)?

    >
    > Ladies and Gentlemen, it's time to do the Distro Shuffle!!!


    No, it's time for /you/ to shuffle off. Putz.


  16. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    On Sep 22, 10:41 pm, Roy Schestowitz
    wrote:

    > In Windows, on the other hand, one needs to be a command-line Guru, realising
    > that to fetch _an address_, one needs to click on Start (start /what/? Isn't


    I was recently amazed to "find" that Windows 2000 server has a "grep".

    It's called find.

    As in, I wanted to find activity on a port so I did

    netstat -ap tcp | find "1099"

    I never knew "find" was there!



  17. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    Linonut wrote:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Sir Michael Clayton belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> "chrisv" wrote in message
    >>>
    >>> You've been interested in Linux for some time, yet you have not groked
    >>> that there are distros that are easier to use (Mepis, Ubuntu, PCLOS),
    >>> and distros that are better-left to those with more experience (Slack,
    >>> Debian, Gentoo)?

    >>
    >> Ladies and Gentlemen, it's time to do the Distro Shuffle!!!

    >
    > No, it's time for /you/ to shuffle off. Putz.


    Some people like to be told what to use, and what it will cost them, I
    guess. Fortunately for them, Billy and Blammer are more than happy to
    oblige.



  18. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    "John Bailo, Texeme.Construct" writes:

    > On Sep 22, 10:41 pm, Roy Schestowitz
    > wrote:
    >
    >> In Windows, on the other hand, one needs to be a command-line Guru, realising
    >> that to fetch _an address_, one needs to click on Start (start /what/? Isn't

    >
    > I was recently amazed to "find" that Windows 2000 server has a "grep".
    >
    > It's called find.
    >
    > As in, I wanted to find activity on a port so I did
    >
    > netstat -ap tcp | find "1099"
    >
    > I never knew "find" was there!
    >
    >


    It's the old line "It's not harder, it's just different to what you expected"

    --
    Ci sono tre regole per scrivere un romanzo. Sfortunatamente, nessuno sa
    quali siano.
    -- Somerset Maugham

  19. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having toHandle Complexity

    On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:58:31 -0700, John Bailo, Texeme.Construct wrote:

    > On Sep 22, 10:41 pm, Roy Schestowitz
    > wrote:
    >
    >> In Windows, on the other hand, one needs to be a command-line Guru, realising
    >> that to fetch _an address_, one needs to click on Start (start /what/? Isn't

    >
    > I was recently amazed to "find" that Windows 2000 server has a "grep".


    It doesn't.

    > It's called find.


    It isn't.

    > As in, I wanted to find activity on a port so I did
    >
    > netstat -ap tcp | find "1099"


    Now try a regular expression. Doesn't work. find is a simple string
    matcher, not a grep.

  20. Re: 1337 Users Prefer Windows... Because of the Thrill of Having to Handle Complexity

    On 2007-09-24, Sir Michael Clayton wrote:
    >
    > "Roy Schestowitz" wrote in message
    > news:2294287.n5kFjfAd9x@schestowitz.com...
    >>I has just occurred to me that Windows was left somewhat behind in the
    >>'dark
    >> ages' of the CLI.

    >
    > And it just occurred to me that Roy Schestowitz is perhaps the biggest idiot
    > on the planet.
    >
    >
    >> For example, in order to obtain the MAC address of a network
    >> device in Linux, one just need to click on buttons and follow the GUIs.
    >> Nice
    >> and easy, right?

    >
    > So it's just like the way that Windows has done it for say... about 15 years
    > now.


    Windows hasn't done anything consistently for that long.

    It's like it's against corporate policy or something.

    [deletia]

    The tricky part of "just find it in the control panel" of course is
    managing to find the control panel and then once there managing to
    find the relevant applet. XP and Vista both tend to play "hide the
    hamster" with anything of interest.

    --
    If you think that an 80G disk can hold HUNDRENDS of |||
    hours of DV video then you obviously haven't used iMovie either. / | \

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