"Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work." - Linux

This is a discussion on "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work." - Linux ; "I think you'll agree that it's fair to call Jamie Zawinski a world class software engineer." .... "For years I've had it drummed into my head that you always have to keep your systems patched, if you aren't running the ...

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Thread: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

  1. "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    "I think you'll agree that it's fair to call Jamie Zawinski a world class
    software engineer."
    ....
    "For years I've had it drummed into my head that you always have to keep
    your systems patched, if you aren't running the latest security fixes, the
    script kiddies will eat you alive, running a six month old OS is like
    leaving your front door wide open, blah blah blah. Well you know what? F**k
    that noise. I'm done upgrading anything ever. The next time I get this s**t
    into a state that seems even remotely stable, I'm never touching it again.
    If we get hacked, oh well. I have backups. It has got to be less work to
    recover from than constantly dealing with this kind of nonsense."
    ....
    "So, f**k it. They'll be running a 2003 version of Linux forever, because I
    frankly have better things to do with my time."
    ....
    "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's caliber
    would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes Linux. It is
    his platform of choice. If he throws in the towel on Linux upgrades, then
    what possible hope do us mere mortals have?"

    http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html

  2. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:54:49 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

    > "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's caliber
    > would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes Linux. It is
    > his platform of choice. If he throws in the towel on Linux upgrades, then
    > what possible hope do us mere mortals have?"
    >
    > http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html


    By the way, I don't post the above to criticize Linux, because frankly all
    software can have issues, even lots of them.

    I say the above to criticize Linux *ADVOCATES* who like to claim that Linux
    just works, that if you can't make it work, you're an idiot, etc...

  3. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."


    "Erik Funkenbusch" wrote in message
    news:yl0ymub16m31$.dlg@funkenbusch.com...
    > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:54:49 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >
    >> "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's caliber
    >> would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes Linux. It
    >> is
    >> his platform of choice. If he throws in the towel on Linux upgrades, then
    >> what possible hope do us mere mortals have?"
    >>
    >> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html

    >
    > By the way, I don't post the above to criticize Linux, because frankly all
    > software can have issues, even lots of them.
    >
    > I say the above to criticize Linux *ADVOCATES* who like to claim that
    > Linux
    > just works, that if you can't make it work, you're an idiot, etc...


    What I find extremely hypocritical from the "advocates" is how they always
    talk about Microsoft and "patch Tuesday" and how Windows users spend all
    their time installing fixes and service packs and other such nonsense.

    Does anyone ever look at what linux makes you download???? It seems that
    2-3 times a week you have to download 50-60 megs of patches, updates,
    security fixes and all sorts of crap. Seems that "binary diff" technology
    hasn't made it to linux-land yet either because it forces you to download
    the whole damn library/file each time there's some fix available.

    Linux is CONSTANTLY updating and forcing people to download ****.



    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  4. Windows is so complex that even a world class idiots at Micoshaft can't always get it to work."

    Micoshaft Fraudster and Asstroturfer Erik Funkenbusch wrote on behalf of
    half wits from Micoshaft Corporation:

    > "I think you'll agree that it's fair to call Jamie Zawinski a world class
    > software engineer."


    Don't judge a conversation from its last few words.

    Switch to numerous well maintained distros and everything will be fine. And
    if you have needs beyond that, fork the projects and break it down to
    simpler tasks like good managers are taught to do.

    http://www.distrowatch.com
    http://www.livecdlist.com


  5. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

    > "I think you'll agree that it's fair to call Jamie Zawinski a world class
    > software engineer."
    > ...
    > "For years I've had it drummed into my head that you always have to keep
    > your systems patched, if you aren't running the latest security fixes, the
    > script kiddies will eat you alive, running a six month old OS is like
    > leaving your front door wide open, blah blah blah. Well you know what?
    > F**k that noise. I'm done upgrading anything ever. The next time I get
    > this s**t into a state that seems even remotely stable, I'm never touching
    > it again. If we get hacked, oh well. I have backups. It has got to be less
    > work to recover from than constantly dealing with this kind of nonsense."
    > ...
    > "So, f**k it. They'll be running a 2003 version of Linux forever, because
    > I frankly have better things to do with my time."
    > ...
    > "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's caliber
    > would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes Linux. It is
    > his platform of choice. If he throws in the towel on Linux upgrades, then
    > what possible hope do us mere mortals have?"
    >
    > http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html




    Yeah... right! Pure Bull ****...
    --

    Jerry McBride (jmcbride@mail-on.us)

  6. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineercan't always get it to work."



    Linux is so complex, I know several retired old fogies and several junior
    high school students who have no difficulty with it whatever.

    Possibly one person's "world class software engineer" is another's
    blithering incompetent.

  7. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineercan't always get it to work."



    Linux is so complex, I know several retired old fogies and several junior
    high school students who have no difficulty with it whatever.

    Possibly one person's "world class software engineer" is another's
    blithering incompetent.

  8. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    ray wrote:
    > Linux is so complex, I know several retired old fogies and several
    > junior high school students who have no difficulty with it whatever.
    >
    > Possibly one person's "world class software engineer" is another's
    > blithering incompetent.


    You would be the blithering incompetent, of course, raytard.

    Tell us about all the horror stories installing and configuring and
    maintaining your 9 library systems.

    And try not to lie through your teeth and say it's all buttah.




  9. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, ray

    wrote
    on 19 Apr 2008 01:00:05 GMT
    <66sugkF2k4s0tU2@mid.individual.net>:
    >
    >
    > Linux is so complex, I know several retired old fogies and several junior
    > high school students who have no difficulty with it whatever.
    >
    > Possibly one person's "world class software engineer" is another's
    > blithering incompetent.


    I've had issues with upgrades on Linux, though if I
    bothered I probably could limit them to once a month
    (except for qemu, which is being stupid, even with gcc 3).

    The reason is quite simple: unless I do emerge --sync, I
    don't upgrade. It's almost as simple as that, really.
    Even if I were to sync daily I'd probably not have that
    many problems.

    I can't say regarding other distros; RedHat in particular
    used to sport a nice big red button when security patches
    were available. (I don't know if Gentoo has this option
    or not.)

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Windows Vista. It'll Fix Everything(tm).

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  10. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:54:49 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >
    >> "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's
    >> caliber would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and
    >> breathes Linux. It is his platform of choice. If he throws in the
    >> towel on Linux upgrades, then what possible hope do us mere mortals
    >> have?"
    >>
    >> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html

    >
    > By the way, I don't post the above to criticize Linux, because
    > frankly all software can have issues, even lots of them.
    >
    > I say the above to criticize Linux *ADVOCATES* who like to claim that
    > Linux just works, that if you can't make it work, you're an idiot,
    > etc...


    Now that's my kind of post.




  11. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    On 2008-04-18, Erik Funkenbusch claimed:
    > "I think you'll agree that it's fair to call Jamie Zawinski a world class
    > software engineer."


    > "So, f**k it. They'll be running a 2003 version of Linux forever, because I
    > frankly have better things to do with my time."
    > ...
    > "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's caliber
    > would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes
    > Linux....


    Not a very bright software engineer. Seems he never heard of the
    crontab.

    I have. Mine is patched as patches are made available. I never even
    have to know about it, except I choose to do the installation manually.
    The upgrades are downloaded while I sleep. I could just as easily have
    it all done, the download and installtion, and have an email sent to me
    to tell me about it.

    --
    Linux: A culture of repair.
    Windows: A culture of despair.

  12. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    On 2008-04-18, Erik Funkenbusch claimed:
    > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:54:49 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >
    >> "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's caliber
    >> would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes Linux. It is
    >> his platform of choice. If he throws in the towel on Linux upgrades, then
    >> what possible hope do us mere mortals have?"
    >>
    >> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html

    >
    > By the way, I don't post the above to criticize Linux, because frankly all
    > software can have issues, even lots of them.
    >
    > I say the above to criticize Linux *ADVOCATES* who like to claim that Linux
    > just works, that if you can't make it work, you're an idiot, etc...


    So, you went out and found an idiot to prove the point? Thanks, Erik.

    --
    Linux is like a wigwam: no Windows, no Gates and Apache inside.

  13. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:47:14 -0500, Sinister Midget wrote:

    > On 2008-04-18, Erik Funkenbusch claimed:
    >> "I think you'll agree that it's fair to call Jamie Zawinski a world class
    >> software engineer."

    >
    >> "So, f**k it. They'll be running a 2003 version of Linux forever, because I
    >> frankly have better things to do with my time."
    >> ...
    >> "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's caliber
    >> would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes
    >> Linux....

    >
    > Not a very bright software engineer. Seems he never heard of the
    > crontab.
    >
    > I have. Mine is patched as patches are made available. I never even
    > have to know about it, except I choose to do the installation manually.
    > The upgrades are downloaded while I sleep. I could just as easily have
    > it all done, the download and installtion, and have an email sent to me
    > to tell me about it.


    You seriously believe Jamie Zawinksi is not a bright software engineer?

    You know, he was one of the original Netscape engineers, and is widely
    quoted and recognized for his contributions.

    This is typical of closed minded people such as yourself, blast the
    creditibility of anyone who disagrees with you, regardless of who they are
    and what they've done for your cause.

  14. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:34:31 -0400, DFS wrote:

    > Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:54:49 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>
    >>> "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's
    >>> caliber would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and
    >>> breathes Linux. It is his platform of choice. If he throws in the
    >>> towel on Linux upgrades, then what possible hope do us mere mortals
    >>> have?"
    >>>
    >>> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html

    >>
    >> By the way, I don't post the above to criticize Linux, because
    >> frankly all software can have issues, even lots of them.
    >>
    >> I say the above to criticize Linux *ADVOCATES* who like to claim that
    >> Linux just works, that if you can't make it work, you're an idiot,
    >> etc...

    >
    > Now that's my kind of post.


    Yea it's my kind of post as well.
    The problem with COLA is that it is so far disconnected with real life and
    reality that it has become pretty much nothing more than a joke.

    What the COLA nuts don't seem to realize is that by using "works for me"
    tactics only further makes them look like loons because the evidence is
    everywhere that Linux does NOT work for quite a lot of people.

    Between unrealistic expectations (ie:just compile the kernel to get
    xxxyyyzz support) to complete an total lies (ie:Linux is winning on the
    desktop and Microsoft is dying) COLA has reached the point of total idiocy.

    The total focus on Vista and it's failings rather than on Linux and it's
    successes is a sure sign that the Linux advocates are backed into a corner
    and are losing this battle, and badly.

    Redhat abandoning the desktop is huge.
    It's bigger than huge..

    This in effect solidifies the theory that Linux as a desktop system is
    never going to happen.

    After 15 years and still at 0.6 percent of the desktop market is pathetic.

    IBM making noise about going to Mac for their employees is yet another blow
    to desktop Linux.
    IBM bragged about moving to Linux for their mobile employees.
    I guess that didn't pan out.

    Desktop Linux is indeed an experiment that has failed.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  15. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:02:05 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

    > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:47:14 -0500, Sinister Midget wrote:
    >
    >> On 2008-04-18, Erik Funkenbusch claimed:
    >>> "I think you'll agree that it's fair to call Jamie Zawinski a world class
    >>> software engineer."

    >>
    >>> "So, f**k it. They'll be running a 2003 version of Linux forever, because I
    >>> frankly have better things to do with my time."
    >>> ...
    >>> "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's caliber
    >>> would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes
    >>> Linux....

    >>
    >> Not a very bright software engineer. Seems he never heard of the
    >> crontab.
    >>
    >> I have. Mine is patched as patches are made available. I never even
    >> have to know about it, except I choose to do the installation manually.
    >> The upgrades are downloaded while I sleep. I could just as easily have
    >> it all done, the download and installtion, and have an email sent to me
    >> to tell me about it.

    >
    > You seriously believe Jamie Zawinksi is not a bright software engineer?
    >
    > You know, he was one of the original Netscape engineers, and is widely
    > quoted and recognized for his contributions.
    >
    > This is typical of closed minded people such as yourself, blast the
    > creditibility of anyone who disagrees with you, regardless of who they are
    > and what they've done for your cause.


    Classic discredit the person instead of admitting that Linux has faults.
    These Linux Loons are getting weirder by the day.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  16. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    Moshe Goldfarb wrote:

    > Yea it's my kind of post as well.
    > The problem with COLA is that it is so far disconnected with real
    > life and reality that it has become pretty much nothing more than a
    > joke.


    Indeed.


    > What the COLA nuts don't seem to realize is that by using "works for
    > me" tactics only further makes them look like loons because the
    > evidence is everywhere that Linux does NOT work for quite a lot of
    > people.


    They obviously don't care how stupid or hysterical they look. What kind of
    rational adult would ever post the sheer ridiculous stuff that comes out of
    Roy Homer Kent Ballard 7?



    > Between unrealistic expectations (ie:just compile the kernel to get
    > xxxyyyzz support) to complete an total lies (ie:Linux is winning on
    > the desktop and Microsoft is dying) COLA has reached the point of
    > total idiocy.


    Within a day of coming on line, the anti-MS buffoonery started up.



    > The total focus on Vista and it's failings rather than on Linux and
    > it's successes is a sure sign that the Linux advocates are backed
    > into a corner and are losing this battle, and badly.
    >
    > Redhat abandoning the desktop is huge.


    RH 4.2 was the first distro I ever tried. I bought it at retail for $50 in
    1997.


    > It's bigger than huge..
    >
    > This in effect solidifies the theory that Linux as a desktop system is
    > never going to happen.
    >
    > After 15 years and still at 0.6 percent of the desktop market is
    > pathetic.


    Earlier today or last night, HPT told us that "Linux won."



    > IBM making noise about going to Mac for their employees is yet
    > another blow to desktop Linux.
    > IBM bragged about moving to Linux for their mobile employees.
    > I guess that didn't pan out.
    >
    > Desktop Linux is indeed an experiment that has failed.


    Which I have mixed feelings about. I know and see why it fails (the apps
    stink, virtually no games, the "community" is often shrill morons, MS is a
    superior marketing and technology organization, and few people even care
    about the OS), but it chagrins me a bit because it means businesses are
    reduced to forever paying MS, and few good apps and games will ever be
    developed for Linux, and the world is stuck with one good x86 OS vendor.

    I blame it on the silly open source development model that will never
    attract the kind of talented developers necessary to build good apps and
    games. It doesn't help that most Linux users are greedy and won't pony up.






  17. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:54:14 -0400, DFS wrote:

    > Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >
    >> Yea it's my kind of post as well.
    >> The problem with COLA is that it is so far disconnected with real
    >> life and reality that it has become pretty much nothing more than a
    >> joke.

    >
    > Indeed.
    >
    >
    >> What the COLA nuts don't seem to realize is that by using "works for
    >> me" tactics only further makes them look like loons because the
    >> evidence is everywhere that Linux does NOT work for quite a lot of
    >> people.

    >
    > They obviously don't care how stupid or hysterical they look. What kind of
    > rational adult would ever post the sheer ridiculous stuff that comes out of
    > Roy Homer Kent Ballard 7?


    Anyone who listens to the idiocy that those bozos preach is indeed a fool.


    >> Between unrealistic expectations (ie:just compile the kernel to get
    >> xxxyyyzz support) to complete an total lies (ie:Linux is winning on
    >> the desktop and Microsoft is dying) COLA has reached the point of
    >> total idiocy.

    >
    > Within a day of coming on line, the anti-MS buffoonery started up.


    It's insane.
    It's like saying something like Slovenia is going to take over the world.

    >
    >
    >> The total focus on Vista and it's failings rather than on Linux and
    >> it's successes is a sure sign that the Linux advocates are backed
    >> into a corner and are losing this battle, and badly.
    >>
    >> Redhat abandoning the desktop is huge.

    >
    > RH 4.2 was the first distro I ever tried. I bought it at retail for $50 in
    > 1997.


    Me too.
    Although I think Slack might have been my first.
    Redhat was not far behind though.

    A nice colorful box, 2 cds and nothing worked right.

    >
    >> It's bigger than huge..
    >>
    >> This in effect solidifies the theory that Linux as a desktop system is
    >> never going to happen.
    >>
    >> After 15 years and still at 0.6 percent of the desktop market is
    >> pathetic.

    >
    > Earlier today or last night, HPT told us that "Linux won."


    HPT is a nut.
    A total loon.
    He SPAMS the group from read.cnntp and expects people to believe it's not
    him.
    What a dork.

    >
    >
    >> IBM making noise about going to Mac for their employees is yet
    >> another blow to desktop Linux.
    >> IBM bragged about moving to Linux for their mobile employees.
    >> I guess that didn't pan out.
    >>
    >> Desktop Linux is indeed an experiment that has failed.

    >
    > Which I have mixed feelings about. I know and see why it fails (the apps
    > stink, virtually no games, the "community" is often shrill morons, MS is a
    > superior marketing and technology organization, and few people even care
    > about the OS), but it chagrins me a bit because it means businesses are
    > reduced to forever paying MS, and few good apps and games will ever be
    > developed for Linux, and the world is stuck with one good x86 OS vendor.


    I agree.


    > I blame it on the silly open source development model that will never
    > attract the kind of talented developers necessary to build good apps and
    > games. It doesn't help that most Linux users are greedy and won't pony up.


    The problem is the suits do not take Linux seriously.
    They google and see reams of crap posted by idiots lik Roy Schestowitz and
    they run from Linux.

    Jokers like Schestowitz are in fact the best reasons for NOT using Linux.
    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  18. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    ray writes:

    > Linux is so complex, I know several retired old fogies and several junior
    > high school students who have no difficulty with it whatever.
    >
    > Possibly one person's "world class software engineer" is another's
    > blithering incompetent.



    Do you have any idea who he is and what he has done?

    Ray, a few web browsers in a library is nothing special old son. That
    kind of **** is not most peoples "needs".


  19. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    Sinister Midget writes:

    > On 2008-04-18, Erik Funkenbusch claimed:
    >> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:54:49 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>
    >>> "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's caliber
    >>> would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes Linux. It is
    >>> his platform of choice. If he throws in the towel on Linux upgrades, then
    >>> what possible hope do us mere mortals have?"
    >>>
    >>> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html

    >>
    >> By the way, I don't post the above to criticize Linux, because frankly all
    >> software can have issues, even lots of them.
    >>
    >> I say the above to criticize Linux *ADVOCATES* who like to claim that Linux
    >> just works, that if you can't make it work, you're an idiot, etc...

    >
    > So, you went out and found an idiot to prove the point? Thanks, Erik.



    Hilarious. You *SO* confirm the reason for the post. ROTFLM.

  20. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

    > "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's caliber
    > would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes Linux. It is
    > his platform of choice. If he throws in the towel on Linux upgrades, then
    > what possible hope do us mere mortals have?"


    Oh yeah, it's *so* hard to update a Linux distribution. One click, the OS
    *AND* the applications are upgraded.

    Get a life, WinTroll.

    --
    RonB
    "There's a story there...somewhere"

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