"Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work." - Linux

This is a discussion on "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work." - Linux ; Ezekiel wrote: (Nothing) Well, look what crawled out of Funkenbush's ass... -- RonB "There's a story there...somewhere"...

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Thread: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

  1. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    Ezekiel wrote:

    (Nothing)

    Well, look what crawled out of Funkenbush's ass...

    --
    RonB
    "There's a story there...somewhere"

  2. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    ray wrote:

    > Linux is so complex, I know several retired old fogies and several junior
    > high school students who have no difficulty with it whatever.
    >
    > Possibly one person's "world class software engineer" is another's
    > blithering incompetent.


    Or 100% pure liar, like the lying WinTrolls who allegedly quote him.

    --
    RonB
    "There's a story there...somewhere"

  3. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

    > You seriously believe Jamie Zawinksi is not a bright software engineer?
    >
    > You know, he was one of the original Netscape engineers, and is widely
    > quoted and recognized for his contributions.


    If he really said what you say he said, I would guess his brain is in
    its "declining" years.

    --
    RonB
    "There's a story there...somewhere"

  4. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineercan't always get it to work."

    On Apr 18, 7:48*pm, Sinister Midget wrote:
    > On 2008-04-18, Erik Funkenbusch claimed:
    >
    > > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:54:49 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

    >
    > >> "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's caliber
    > >> would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes Linux. Itis
    > >> his platform of choice. If he throws in the towel on Linux upgrades, then
    > >> what possible hope do us mere mortals have?"

    >
    > >>http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html

    >
    > > By the way, I don't post the above to criticize Linux, because frankly all
    > > software can have issues, even lots of them.

    >
    > > I say the above to criticize Linux *ADVOCATES* who like to claim that Linux
    > > just works, that if you can't make it work, you're an idiot, etc...

    >
    > So, you went out and found an idiot to prove the point? Thanks, Erik.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Zawinski

    --
    Tom Shelton

  5. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineercan't always get it to work."

    On Apr 18, 7:00*pm, ray wrote:
    > Linux is so complex, I know several retired old fogies and several junior
    > high school students who have no difficulty with it whatever.
    >
    > Possibly one person's "world class software engineer" is another's
    > blithering incompetent.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Zawinski

    --
    Tom Shelton

  6. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineercan't always get it to work."

    On Apr 18, 11:00*pm, RonB wrote:
    > ray wrote:
    > > Linux is so complex, I know several retired old fogies and several junior
    > > high school students who have no difficulty with it whatever.

    >
    > > Possibly one person's "world class software engineer" is another's
    > > blithering incompetent.

    >
    > Or 100% pure liar, like the lying WinTrolls who allegedly quote him.
    >


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Zawinski

    --
    Tom Shelton

  7. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    On 2008-04-19, Erik Funkenbusch claimed:
    > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:47:14 -0500, Sinister Midget wrote:
    >
    >> On 2008-04-18, Erik Funkenbusch claimed:
    >>> "I think you'll agree that it's fair to call Jamie Zawinski a world class
    >>> software engineer."

    >>
    >>> "So, f**k it. They'll be running a 2003 version of Linux forever, because I
    >>> frankly have better things to do with my time."
    >>> ...
    >>> "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's caliber
    >>> would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes
    >>> Linux....

    >>
    >> Not a very bright software engineer. Seems he never heard of the
    >> crontab.
    >>
    >> I have. Mine is patched as patches are made available. I never even
    >> have to know about it, except I choose to do the installation manually.
    >> The upgrades are downloaded while I sleep. I could just as easily have
    >> it all done, the download and installtion, and have an email sent to me
    >> to tell me about it.

    >
    > You seriously believe Jamie Zawinksi is not a bright software engineer?


    I seriously think he is either retarded or has a mental block if a dolt
    like me can figure it out and he can't. He "lives and breathes linux"
    and he doesn't know about his crontab?.

    > You know, he was one of the original Netscape engineers, and is widely
    > quoted and recognized for his contributions.


    So he should know better, is what you're saying. Instead, you want to
    use his inability to figure a means to do what needs to be done without
    being hassled by it as a way to make it look like patching linux is
    tough.

    > This is typical of closed minded people such as yourself, blast the
    > creditibility of anyone who disagrees with you, regardless of who they are
    > and what they've done for your cause.


    He may be a nice guy. He might be the highest IQ Mensa member ever. He
    might have invented the internet and intergalactic travel. He might be
    /the/ sole expert on a lot of things But he's butt stupid if he can't
    figure out a crontab entry to handle it all for him with the level of
    knowledge he supposedly has.

    No, instead of 15 seconds to apply a permanent fix, gives throws up his
    hands and surrenders. That's not the sort of thing that impresses
    people with the tiniest bit of linux knowledge. Which explains why you
    were seemingly impressed.

    He could send me a couple of grand and I could ssh into the box and fix
    it for him. If he knows enough to set up a ssh account for me, that is.

    --
    Windows: In what position would you like to be taken today?

  8. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    On 2008-04-19, The Ghost In The Machine claimed:
    > In comp.os.linux.advocacy, ray
    >
    > wrote
    > on 19 Apr 2008 01:00:05 GMT
    ><66sugkF2k4s0tU2@mid.individual.net>:
    >>
    >>
    >> Linux is so complex, I know several retired old fogies and several junior
    >> high school students who have no difficulty with it whatever.
    >>
    >> Possibly one person's "world class software engineer" is another's
    >> blithering incompetent.

    >
    > I've had issues with upgrades on Linux, though if I
    > bothered I probably could limit them to once a month
    > (except for qemu, which is being stupid, even with gcc 3).
    >
    > The reason is quite simple: unless I do emerge --sync, I
    > don't upgrade. It's almost as simple as that, really.
    > Even if I were to sync daily I'd probably not have that
    > many problems.
    >
    > I can't say regarding other distros; RedHat in particular
    > used to sport a nice big red button when security patches
    > were available. (I don't know if Gentoo has this option
    > or not.)


    Here's all of the hard work I have to do:

    19 4 * * * root apt-get update

    Then I manually (by choice) pull up synaptic and look. I used to have a
    /much/ harder time with it. Like this:

    19 4 * * * root spat-get update; apt-get upgrade

    Greulling, I tells ya! And it broke things exactly....well....never.

    --
    Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates.

  9. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:48:02 -0500, Sinister Midget wrote:

    > On 2008-04-18, Erik Funkenbusch claimed:
    >> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:54:49 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>
    >>> "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's
    >>> caliber would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes
    >>> Linux. It is his platform of choice. If he throws in the towel on Linux
    >>> upgrades, then what possible hope do us mere mortals have?"
    >>>
    >>> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html

    >>
    >> By the way, I don't post the above to criticize Linux, because frankly
    >> all software can have issues, even lots of them.
    >>
    >> I say the above to criticize Linux *ADVOCATES* who like to claim that
    >> Linux just works, that if you can't make it work, you're an idiot,
    >> etc...

    >
    > So, you went out and found an idiot to prove the point? Thanks, Erik.


    Why would FUDdenbusch need to go *out* to find an idiot, when there's one
    sitting right in front of his computer?

    --
    This message was sent from a
    computer which is guaranteed
    100% free of the M$ Windoze virus.
    -- 64bit Mandriva 2008.1 --

  10. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    On 2008-04-19, William Poaster claimed:
    > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:48:02 -0500, Sinister Midget wrote:
    >
    >> On 2008-04-18, Erik Funkenbusch claimed:
    >>> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:54:49 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's
    >>>> caliber would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes
    >>>> Linux. It is his platform of choice. If he throws in the towel on Linux
    >>>> upgrades, then what possible hope do us mere mortals have?"
    >>>>
    >>>> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html
    >>>
    >>> By the way, I don't post the above to criticize Linux, because frankly
    >>> all software can have issues, even lots of them.
    >>>
    >>> I say the above to criticize Linux *ADVOCATES* who like to claim that
    >>> Linux just works, that if you can't make it work, you're an idiot,
    >>> etc...

    >>
    >> So, you went out and found an idiot to prove the point? Thanks, Erik.

    >
    > Why would FUDdenbusch need to go *out* to find an idiot, when there's one
    > sitting right in front of his computer?


    He needed a fresh idiot to back up his own idiocy.

    --
    To mess up a linux box, you need to work _at_ it.
    To mess up a Windows box, you need to work _on_ it.

  11. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineercan't always get it to work."

    On 18 , 20:54, "DFS" wrote:
    >
    > I blame it on the silly open source development model that will never
    > attract the kind of talented developers necessary to build good apps and
    > games. It doesn't help that most Linux users are greedy and won't pony up..


    "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't
    always get it to work."

    So, DFS, Hadron, RayLopez99 are world class software engineers?
    Bwaaaahaaaahaaaa!

    DFS, who can't seem to get any distro of Linux to work properly?

    Hadron who can't seem to get Debian Stable to run stable and must
    resort to Debian Unstable versions?

    Raylopez99, who can't seem to find a real reply from Linux advocates,
    because most have him kill binned?

    Geez, what a bunch of morons!

    BTW, W-H-A-T is a WORLD CLASS ENGINEER? This is so nebulous, must be
    another troll new world definition:

    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/

    7.6 Trespasser Disinformation Tactics

    41. Use of Undefined Terminology. Use terms such as "indoctrinated"
    as a substitute for "educated" or "experienced" when referring to a
    Linux Advocate. Use "pedantic" in place of "correct", "precise", or
    "accurate" when referring to a Linux Advocate. Create and use
    personal definitions such as "commercial quality" for impressive
    sounding terms to mislead the unwary. But never share your
    definitions for your inappropriate terminology. This is commonly known
    as Troll-speak.
    --
    HPT

  12. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > "I think you'll agree that it's fair to call Jamie Zawinski a world class
    > software engineer."
    > ...
    > "For years I've had it drummed into my head that you always have to keep
    > your systems patched, if you aren't running the latest security fixes, the
    > script kiddies will eat you alive, running a six month old OS is like
    > leaving your front door wide open, blah blah blah. Well you know what? F**k
    > that noise. I'm done upgrading anything ever. The next time I get this s**t
    > into a state that seems even remotely stable, I'm never touching it again.
    > If we get hacked, oh well. I have backups. It has got to be less work to
    > recover from than constantly dealing with this kind of nonsense."
    > ...
    > "So, f**k it. They'll be running a 2003 version of Linux forever, because I
    > frankly have better things to do with my time."
    > ...
    > "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's caliber
    > would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes Linux. It is
    > his platform of choice. If he throws in the towel on Linux upgrades, then
    > what possible hope do us mere mortals have?"
    >
    > http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html


    Awww, poor baby. April Fool!

    Comment at that link:

    As far as I recall, for personal use Jamie moved to OS X fairly early
    on.

    He does seem to have a lot of trouble with Linux, but at the end of
    the day, it's all anecdotal. Anyone can pull out horror setup
    stories, and it doesn't say a lot except what Jamie did at the top of
    the post you linked: "Stupid computers".

    And is every site doing the horrible colour scheme for April's fools?
    Yours isn't so bad, but some of the others make me want to gouge my
    eyes out. Here in the future, April 1st was yesterday. Get with the
    times, sheesh.

    Bernard on April 1, 2008 04:32 AM



    --
    If you can't make it good, at least make it look good.
    -- Bill Gates

  13. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:54:49 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >
    >> "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's caliber
    >> would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes Linux. It is
    >> his platform of choice. If he throws in the towel on Linux upgrades, then
    >> what possible hope do us mere mortals have?"
    >>
    >> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html

    >
    > By the way, I don't post the above to criticize Linux, because frankly all
    > software can have issues, even lots of them.
    >
    > I say the above to criticize Linux *ADVOCATES* who like to claim that Linux
    > just works, that if you can't make it work, you're an idiot, etc...


    Check out the date. The guy posted it a day early .

    Plus, the dude who floundered is apparently a Mac user.

    --
    People everywhere love Windows.
    -- Bill Gates

  14. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    * Sinister Midget peremptorily fired off this memo:

    >>> On 2008-04-18, Erik Funkenbusch claimed:
    >>>> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:54:49 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> I say the above to criticize Linux *ADVOCATES* who like to claim that
    >>>> Linux just works, that if you can't make it work, you're an idiot,
    >>>> etc...
    >>>
    >>> So, you went out and found an idiot to prove the point? Thanks, Erik.

    >>
    >> Why would FUDdenbusch need to go *out* to find an idiot, when there's one
    >> sitting right in front of his computer?

    >
    > He needed a fresh idiot to back up his own idiocy.


    Three trolls and two idiots! A full house!

    --
    In terms of doing things I take a fairly scientific approach to why things
    happen and how they happen. I don't know if there's a god or not, but I
    think religious principles are quite valid.
    -- Bill Gates, PBS interview with David Frost (November 1995)

  15. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    * Sinister Midget peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > Here's all of the hard work I have to do:
    >
    > 19 4 * * * root apt-get update
    >
    > Then I manually (by choice) pull up synaptic and look. I used to have a
    > /much/ harder time with it. Like this:
    >
    > 19 4 * * * root spat-get update; apt-get upgrade
    >
    > Greulling, I tells ya! And it broke things exactly....well....never.


    I run aptitude, and then do "u U g g" then sit back and light up a
    cheroot.

    --
    I really had a lot of dreams when I was a kid, and I think a great deal of
    that grew out of the fact that I had a chance to read a lot.
    -- Bill Gates

  16. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    * Tom Shelton peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > On Apr 18, 11:00*pm, RonB wrote:
    >> ray wrote:
    >> > Linux is so complex, I know several retired old fogies and several junior
    >> > high school students who have no difficulty with it whatever.

    >>
    >> > Possibly one person's "world class software engineer" is another's
    >> > blithering incompetent.

    >>
    >> Or 100% pure liar, like the lying WinTrolls who allegedly quote him.

    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Zawinski


    Although Jamie now runs a nightclub, I did find more to admire about him
    there, since he has this jargon-file entry:

    Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those
    programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.

    --
    Like almost everyone who uses e-mail, I receive a ton of spam every day. Much
    of it offers to help me get out of debt or get rich quick. It would be funny if
    it weren't so irritating.
    -- Bill Gates, "Why I Hate Spam" in Microsoft PressPass (2003)

  17. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineercan't always get it to work."

    Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

    > "I think you'll agree that it's fair to call [....] a
    > world class software engineer."


    What is a world class software engineer? Oh, I get it, troll
    gob****e:

    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/

    7.6 Trespasser Disinformation Tactics

    41. Use of Undefined Terminology. Use terms such as
    "indoctrinated" as a substitute for "educated" or "experienced"
    when referring to a Linux Advocate. Use "pedantic" in place of
    "correct", "precise", or "accurate" when referring to a Linux
    Advocate. Create and use personal definitions such as
    "commercial quality" for impressive sounding terms to mislead the
    unwary. But never share your definitions for your inappropriate
    terminology. This is commonly known as Troll-speak.
    Let's look at what the article states,

    About a year later [1991]
    That was 17 years ago.

    > drummed into my head that you always have to keep your systems
    > patched, if you aren't running the latest security fixes, the
    > script kiddies will eat you alive


    Oh, okay, now "world class software engineer" is clarified.

    > http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html


    --
    HPT

  18. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 05:20:54 -0700, High Plains Thumper wrote:

    > On 18 , 20:54, "DFS" wrote:
    >>
    >> I blame it on the silly open source development model that will never
    >> attract the kind of talented developers necessary to build good apps and
    >> games. It doesn't help that most Linux users are greedy and won't pony
    >> up.

    >
    > "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't
    > always get it to work."
    >
    > So, DFS, Hadron, RayLopez99 are world class software engineers?
    > Bwaaaahaaaahaaaa!
    >
    > DFS, who can't seem to get any distro of Linux to work properly?
    >
    > Hadron who can't seem to get Debian Stable to run stable and must resort
    > to Debian Unstable versions?
    >
    > Raylopez99, who can't seem to find a real reply from Linux advocates,
    > because most have him kill binned?
    >
    > Geez, what a bunch of morons!
    >
    > BTW, W-H-A-T is a WORLD CLASS ENGINEER? This is so nebulous, must be
    > another troll new world definition:


    It was the eve of April Fools day, March 31, & you'll note the *earliest*
    reactions to the 'blog' are on April 1st....which should tell you
    something. However the trio of fools went for it. ;-)

    > http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/
    >
    >
    > 7.6 Trespasser Disinformation Tactics
    >
    > 41. Use of Undefined Terminology. Use terms such as "indoctrinated" as a
    > substitute for "educated" or "experienced" when referring to a Linux
    > Advocate. Use "pedantic" in place of "correct", "precise", or "accurate"
    > when referring to a Linux Advocate. Create and use personal definitions
    > such as "commercial quality" for impressive sounding terms to mislead the
    > unwary. But never share your definitions for your inappropriate
    > terminology. This is commonly known as Troll-speak.
    >


    --
    This message was sent from a
    computer which is guaranteed
    100% free of the M$ Windoze virus.
    -- 64bit Mandriva 2008.1 --

  19. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 08:28:27 -0400, Linonut wrote:

    > * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:54:49 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>
    >>> "I find it highly disturbing that a software engineer of Jamie's
    >>> caliber would give up on upgrading software. Jamie lives and breathes
    >>> Linux. It is his platform of choice. If he throws in the towel on Linux
    >>> upgrades, then what possible hope do us mere mortals have?"
    >>>
    >>> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001089.html

    >>
    >> By the way, I don't post the above to criticize Linux, because frankly
    >> all software can have issues, even lots of them.
    >>
    >> I say the above to criticize Linux *ADVOCATES* who like to claim that
    >> Linux just works, that if you can't make it work, you're an idiot,
    >> etc...

    >
    > Check out the date. The guy posted it a day early .


    Bingo!

    > Plus, the dude who floundered is apparently a Mac user.


    Not surprising, though I rather expected him to be a windoze luser.

    --
    This message was sent from a
    computer which is guaranteed
    100% free of the M$ Windoze virus.
    -- 64bit Mandriva 2008.1 --

  20. Re: "Linux is so complex that even a world class software engineer can't always get it to work."

    On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 08:31:10 -0400, Linonut wrote:

    > * Sinister Midget peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >>>> On 2008-04-18, Erik Funkenbusch claimed:
    >>>>> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:54:49 -0500, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I say the above to criticize Linux *ADVOCATES* who like to claim that
    >>>>> Linux just works, that if you can't make it work, you're an idiot,
    >>>>> etc...
    >>>>
    >>>> So, you went out and found an idiot to prove the point? Thanks, Erik.
    >>>
    >>> Why would FUDdenbusch need to go *out* to find an idiot, when there's
    >>> one sitting right in front of his computer?

    >>
    >> He needed a fresh idiot to back up his own idiocy.

    >
    > Three trolls and two idiots! A full house!


    Damn, that beats my toilet flush!

    --
    This message was sent from a
    computer which is guaranteed
    100% free of the M$ Windoze virus.
    -- 64bit Mandriva 2008.1 --

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