What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6% - Linux

This is a discussion on What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6% - Linux ; On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:52:14 -0500, Rick wrote: > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:29:47 -0400, Ezekiel wrote: > >> "Rick" wrote in message >> news:IOSdnfCtWYu-VZXVnZ2dnUVZ_urinZ2d@supernews.com... >>> Moshe Goldfarb wrote: >>>> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:35:42 -0400, Ezekiel ...

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Thread: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

  1. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:52:14 -0500, Rick wrote:

    > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:29:47 -0400, Ezekiel wrote:
    >
    >> "Rick" wrote in message
    >> news:IOSdnfCtWYu-VZXVnZ2dnUVZ_urinZ2d@supernews.com...
    >>> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >>>> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:35:42 -0400, Ezekiel wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Both are free. Yet in LESS THAN HALF the time Firefox has amassed 20%
    >>>>> (or more) marketshare but linux continues to languish at about 0.6%.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Firefox managed to make it and succeed. Consumers have accepted
    >>>>> Firefox.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Linux... it's been a limp dog for over 15 years. Consumer continue to
    >>>>> reject linux.
    >>>>
    >>>> People want firefox because it is an excellent program. People DON'T
    >>>> want desktop Linux.
    >>>> They try it and they dump it because it is a much worse experience
    >>>> than Windows is for them.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> I am beginning to think you are extremely stupid, or dishonest, or
    >>> both. You know very well that network effects, inertia and herd
    >>> mentality are the major reasons Linux is more widely adopted.
    >>> Dislodging a monoply is extremely hard. Dislodging and illegally
    >>> maintained monopoly is apparently almost impossible.

    >>
    >> So explain why Firefox is able to do it in just a few years but linux
    >> has yet to make a dent in the consumer desktop market after 15 years.

    >
    > .. because Firefox is an application that runs on multiple operating
    > systems. There aren't any worries about incompatible data. Gnu/Linux is
    > an operating system. There is no "one big company" advertising/marketing
    > it". Moving from Windows to Linux involves learning new application sets,
    > possibly dealing with data conversion problems, and simply finding out it
    > exists.
    >
    > I do not understand how you cannot see the difference in the 2 situations.
    >
    >>
    >>
    >>> --
    >>> Rick

    >>
    >>
    >> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

    >
    > .. and you might want to get a decent news reader.


    So why is Open Office languishing much like Linux?
    That application is cross platform.

    How about Gimp?
    Another cross platform program.

    Why can Firefox manage to gain market share and these other programs are
    literally on life support?

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  2. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20%marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:45:54 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:

    > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:11:18 -0400, Rick wrote:
    >
    >> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >>> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:35:42 -0400, Ezekiel wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Both are free. Yet in LESS THAN HALF the time Firefox has amassed 20%
    >>>> (or more) marketshare but linux continues to languish at about 0.6%.
    >>>>
    >>>> Firefox managed to make it and succeed. Consumers have accepted
    >>>> Firefox.
    >>>>
    >>>> Linux... it's been a limp dog for over 15 years. Consumer continue to
    >>>> reject linux.
    >>>
    >>> People want firefox because it is an excellent program. People DON'T
    >>> want desktop Linux.
    >>> They try it and they dump it because it is a much worse experience
    >>> than Windows is for them.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> I am beginning to think you are extremely stupid, or dishonest, or
    >> both. You know very well that network effects, inertia and herd
    >> mentality are the major reasons Linux is more widely adopted.
    >> Dislodging a monoply is extremely hard. Dislodging and illegally
    >> maintained monopoly is apparently almost impossible.

    >
    > So how do you explain the massive numbers of people downloading Linux
    > compared to the pathetic numbers of people actually using Linux?


    How do you know the numbers are all that different?

    --
    Rick

  3. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20%marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:05:42 -0400, jim wrote:

    > "Rick" wrote in message
    > news:OcmdnQrHNKR_YZXVnZ2dnUVZ_szinZ2d@supernews.co m...
    >> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 09:47:00 -0400, jim wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Ezekiel" wrote in message
    >>> news:4a273$4808878f$6258@news.teranews.com...
    >>>>
    >>>> Both are free. Yet in LESS THAN HALF the time Firefox has amassed 20%
    >>>> (or more) marketshare but linux continues to languish at about 0.6%.
    >>>
    >>> The actual numbes are Firefox 37% and Linux 3.9%
    >>> (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp) but they show
    >>> exactly what you are saying.
    >>>
    >>> Firefox growsat over 6% per year and Linux at about 0.3%. Why
    >>> indeed.....

    >>
    >> Why? Because Firefox is a multi-platform application.

    >
    > Bull****.


    No, it is a very good multi-platform application.

    >
    > (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_Mac) -----
    >
    > "As a result of the five-year agreement between Apple and Microsoft in
    > 1997, it was the default browser on Mac OS before it was replaced by
    > Apple's own Safari web browser in 2003. Internet Explorer for Mac
    > remained available for download from Microsoft until January 31, 2006.
    > However, no major updates had been released since March 27, 2000, aside
    > from bug fixes and updates to take advantage of new features in Mac OS
    > X. On June 13, 2003, Microsoft announced that it was ceasing further
    > development of Internet Explorer for Mac. The browser was not included
    > in default installation of Mac OS X v10.4 "Tiger" which was released on
    > April 29, 2005. Microsoft discontinued support for the product on
    > December 31, 2005 and removed the application from their Macintosh
    > downloads site on January 31, 2006. Microsoft recommends "that Macintosh
    > users migrate to more recent web browsing technologies such as Apple's
    > Safari."[1]"
    >
    > -----
    >
    > Having stopped further development of IE for the Mac in 2003
    > (incidentally the same year for the beginning stats that I quote), IE on
    > Mac is not relevant, statistically speaking, to the rise of Firefox.
    >
    > As for FF on Linux, it is true that FF has become the browser of choice
    > for Linux. But, seeing as how replacing 100% of the Linux browsers
    > would only result in less than 4% of the growth, the other 33% mostly
    > came from replacing IE on Windows.


    I am not sure the Konqueror and Opera fans would agree that Firefox is
    the browser of choice on LInux.

    >
    > Hell, let's say that 100% of all Linux and Apple workstations switched
    > to Firefox. Let's further assume the latest %s for Linux and Mac - 8.3%
    > of the market.
    >
    > So, just where did the other 28.7% increase in Firefox market share come
    > from?
    >
    > IE! Firefox beat IE on its own turf (Windows) by being more stable,
    > extendable, potentially profitable and being easier to extend than IE.
    > (Have you every tried to extend IE? Obviously not.)


    No, I don't use IE whenever possible. I have installed FF on all the
    machines in my classroom.

    And AGAIN, peple have nothing to lose by using Firefox on Windows. IE
    will always be there. There is no data to convert.

    >
    >
    >>>> Firefox managed to make it and succeed. Consumers have accepted
    >>>> Firefox.
    >>>>
    >>>> Linux... it's been a limp dog for over 15 years. Consumer continue to
    >>>> reject linux.

    >>
    >> From one extremely limited point of view. The other is that people want
    >> what everyone else has, which is Windows. They want the same apps and
    >> games. And don't forget, the overwhelming number of people don't even
    >> know about Linux.

    >
    > Thats why you need new apps and new games for Linux to challenge
    > Windows. You get those by making it easier to develop for Linux than for
    > Windows.
    >
    > I don't know how much simpler I can make this......


    It is not me that is not grasping the situation. People, on the whole,
    dislike change. On the whole, they want what everyone else is using.
    Network effects, inertia, herd mentality.

    >
    >
    >>> Because Firefox is easy to use, extendable by just about anybody with
    >>> 2 chromosomes to rub together and offers opportunities for profiting
    >>> from writing those extentions.

    >>
    >> Linux is easy to use, extendable by just about anybody with 2
    >> chromosomes.

    >
    > Bull****.


    Linux is easy to use, extendable by just about anybody with 2 chromosomes.

    > Show me ANYTHING in Linux that is as easy to pick up and
    > program and has as much power as even Visual Basic 3 for Windows.


    I don't use VB. Linux distros are still easy to use.

    >
    >
    >>> Simply put....because Firefox listens to, and empowers, the community
    >>> and Linux fragments into hundreds of distros with no care for
    >>> empowering your average 7th grade programmer wannabe.

    >>
    >> The Linux community listens to, and empowers, the community.

    >
    > No. It buries it's beak in the snow.


    he Linux community listens to, and empowers, the community.

    > It sets up NGs to blow its own horn.


    That's what some newsgroups are for, ya know.


    > But it does NOT learn from Microsoft or Mozilla about making
    > simple to use, simple to extend software for the masses.


    What do you call Firefox?

    >
    >> How about getting a decent newsreader, or configuring this one.

    >
    > As soon as you come up with a decent argument.
    >
    > jim


    So, you'd rather look incompetent. OK.


    --
    Rick

  4. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    On 2008-04-18, jim wrote:

    [snipped a heap of bull****]


    > Thats why you need new apps and new games for Linux to challenge Windows.
    > You get those by making it easier to develop for Linux than for Windows.
    >
    > I don't know how much simpler I can make this......


    Have you ever developed _anything_ using C, C++, Perl or any number of
    programming languages on Linux?

    Have you read the _extensive_ documentation on the Linux libc library?

    It is DEAD simple... even on low level languages. For higher languages
    like Perl it is as easy or as hard as you want to make it.

    You sound like a novice programmer who only knows one language. There's
    a world out there that you don't even understand. I suggest you roll up
    the sleeves and get busy.


    >>>
    >>> Because Firefox is easy to use, extendable by just about anybody with 2
    >>> chromosomes to rub together and offers opportunities for profiting from
    >>> writing those extentions.

    >>
    >> Linux is easy to use, extendable by just about anybody with 2 chromosomes.

    >
    > Bull****. Show me ANYTHING in Linux that is as easy to pick up and program
    > and has as much power as even Visual Basic 3 for Windows.


    Never used VB on Windows. I gave up windows back in the mid '90s,
    because coding on it became too bloody painful. The C compiler cost a
    bloody fortune.

    >>>
    >>> Simply put....because Firefox listens to, and empowers, the community
    >>> and Linux fragments into hundreds of distros with no care for empowering
    >>> your average 7th grade programmer wannabe.

    >>
    >> The Linux community listens to, and empowers, the community.

    >
    > No. It buries it's beak in the snow.


    How else do you clear away the snow to lay your eggs on the warmer bare
    rock?

    >It sets up NGs to blow its own horn.


    No ****, Sherlock... That's this NG's purpose. Don't like it? Then ****
    off.

    > But it does NOT learn from Microsoft or Mozilla about making simple to use,
    > simple to extend software for the masses.


    IOW Linux should become as virus-ridden, and a security risk as Windows
    and firefox....

    No thank you.

    >> How about getting a decent newsreader, or configuring this one.

    >
    > As soon as you come up with a decent argument.


    You can't even follow a few simple usenet rules. No wonder you find it
    hard to code in other languages.

    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  5. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    On 2008-04-18, Linonut wrote:
    >
    > Almost /all/ people do now know or care about OS's. They know, and may
    > care, about brands. Even then, most of them will take what comes on the
    > most-available boxes.
    >
    > Anything /different/ from that will be suspect, especially if it isn't
    > already popular.
    >
    > Any difference at all is enough to make some people shy away from an
    > alternative.
    >
    > Even my own family acts that way. I truly don't understand it. But
    > there it is.
    >


    Yeah, the lack of knowledge about computers is disturbing to say the
    least. They trust these boxes with their most intimate secrets and yet
    its inner workings terrify them to such an extent as to drive them into
    accepting what is _popular_ rather than what is _secure_.


    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  6. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    On 2008-04-18, Rick wrote:
    > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 12:29:47 -0400, Ezekiel wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> So explain why Firefox is able to do it in just a few years but linux
    >> has yet to make a dent in the consumer desktop market after 15 years.

    >
    > .. because Firefox is an application that runs on multiple operating
    > systems. There aren't any worries about incompatible data. Gnu/Linux is
    > an operating system. There is no "one big company" advertising/marketing
    > it". Moving from Windows to Linux involves learning new application sets,
    > possibly dealing with data conversion problems, and simply finding out it
    > exists.
    >
    > I do not understand how you cannot see the difference in the 2 situations.


    Are you serious? He's a troll. Stop replying to him.

    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  7. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    On 2008-04-18, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

    > [2] Install kernel, um....need more software, like
    > /sbin/init and /bin/bash. (Remember, I'm a pedant! ;-))


    Two can play at that game. I've installed Linux from Scratch and Gentoo
    and I can assure you that you don't install the kernel first. It's one
    of the last pieces of the jigsaw.

    First you partition, install your filesystems, then put together a tool
    chain so that you can build your software (building a toolchain is a
    major enterprise in itself!). Once you've built your basic system
    software (and installed and configured it), THEN you configure, build
    and install your kernel.... Don't forget about your bootloader!

    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  8. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    On 19 Apr 2008 00:29:10 GMT, Gregory Shearman wrote:

    > On 2008-04-18, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    >
    >> [2] Install kernel, um....need more software, like
    >> /sbin/init and /bin/bash. (Remember, I'm a pedant! ;-))

    >
    > Two can play at that game. I've installed Linux from Scratch and Gentoo
    > and I can assure you that you don't install the kernel first. It's one
    > of the last pieces of the jigsaw.
    >
    > First you partition, install your filesystems, then put together a tool
    > chain so that you can build your software (building a toolchain is a
    > major enterprise in itself!). Once you've built your basic system
    > software (and installed and configured it), THEN you configure, build
    > and install your kernel.... Don't forget about your bootloader!


    Sounds like a total waste of time.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  9. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Gregory Shearman

    wrote
    on 19 Apr 2008 00:29:10 GMT
    :
    > On 2008-04-18, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    >
    >> [2] Install kernel, um....need more software, like
    >> /sbin/init and /bin/bash. (Remember, I'm a pedant! ;-))

    >
    > Two can play at that game. I've installed Linux from Scratch and Gentoo
    > and I can assure you that you don't install the kernel first. It's one
    > of the last pieces of the jigsaw.


    Very true, though it depends on the exact installation.
    In most cases, one has to boot a LiveCD, which has a
    prebuilt kernel that should do the basics (obviously, one
    doesn't need the audio subsystem to install everything,
    unless the LiveCD does an autoprobe of some sort).

    >
    > First you partition, install your filesystems, then put together a tool
    > chain so that you can build your software (building a toolchain is a
    > major enterprise in itself!).


    Toolchain? I'll admit gcc is a bear to build (Gentoo helps
    a lot by standardizing the process[*]), but otherwise am
    not sure what chain of tools you're referring to here,
    unless you're referring to the stuff the kernel needs,
    which isn't much beyond Tk and gcc -- and Tk is a
    convenience for 'make xconfig', if I'm not mistaken.

    > Once you've built your basic system
    > software (and installed and configured it), THEN you configure, build
    > and install your kernel.... Don't forget about your bootloader!
    >


    And then you reboot. ;-) But like I said, I'm a pedant.
    Linux qua Linux, even assuming one can build or *boot*
    it in one's environment, isn't going to do all that
    much without /sbin/init or /bin/sh (though one can do an
    override using init= if one wishes).

    Take a look near the bottom of /usr/src/linux/init/main.c,
    in init_post().

    I don't know if Linux can boot from a hard drive without
    a bootloader, though it can boot from floppy if one does

    dd if=/vmlinuz of=/dev/fd0

    (modify as necessary). Of course floppies are becoming
    increasingly extinct...

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Windows Vista. It'll Fix Everything(tm).

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  10. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Moshe Goldfarb

    wrote
    on Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:53:56 -0400
    :
    > On 19 Apr 2008 00:29:10 GMT, Gregory Shearman wrote:
    >
    >> On 2008-04-18, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    >>
    >>> [2] Install kernel, um....need more software, like
    >>> /sbin/init and /bin/bash. (Remember, I'm a pedant! ;-))

    >>
    >> Two can play at that game. I've installed Linux from Scratch and Gentoo
    >> and I can assure you that you don't install the kernel first. It's one
    >> of the last pieces of the jigsaw.
    >>
    >> First you partition, install your filesystems, then put together a tool
    >> chain so that you can build your software (building a toolchain is a
    >> major enterprise in itself!). Once you've built your basic system
    >> software (and installed and configured it), THEN you configure, build
    >> and install your kernel.... Don't forget about your bootloader!

    >
    > Sounds like a total waste of time.
    >


    Well, as I keep pointing out, Windows is easier to install
    for the Average Layman(tm), because it comes preinstalled.
    The procedure

    [1] Connect things up.
    [2] Power on.
    [3] Key in identification code.
    [4] You're there!

    as opposed to

    [1] Connect things up.
    [2] Power on.
    [3] Stick disc in.
    [4] Answer questions.
    [5] Wait.
    [6] Repeat steps 3-5 until satisfied.
    [7] CTRL-ALT-DEL.
    [8] You're there!

    as opposed to

    [1] Connect things up.
    [2] Power on.
    [3] Stick disc in.
    [4] Answer questions.
    [5] Wait.
    [6] CTRL-ALT-DEL
    [7] Stick another disc in.
    [8] Repeat steps 4-7 until Windows and/or Windows-based apps
    are satisfied.
    [9] CTRL-ALT-DEL one final time, maybe.
    [10] You're there!

    As you can see, the first procedure is far simpler than the other two,
    and is the default one for users purchasing hardware from, say,
    Circuit City, Fry's Electronics, Comp USA (if they're still around),
    Dell, etc.

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    People think that libraries are safe. They're wrong. They have ideas.
    (Also occasionally ectoplasmic slime and cute librarians.)

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  11. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Gregory Shearman

    wrote
    on 19 Apr 2008 00:11:00 GMT
    :
    > On 2008-04-18, jim wrote:
    >
    > [snipped a heap of bull****]
    >
    >
    >> Thats why you need new apps and new games for Linux to challenge Windows.
    >> You get those by making it easier to develop for Linux than for Windows.
    >>
    >> I don't know how much simpler I can make this......

    >
    > Have you ever developed _anything_ using C, C++, Perl or any number of
    > programming languages on Linux?
    >
    > Have you read the _extensive_ documentation on the Linux libc library?
    >
    > It is DEAD simple... even on low level languages. For higher languages
    > like Perl it is as easy or as hard as you want to make it.
    >
    > You sound like a novice programmer who only knows one language. There's
    > a world out there that you don't even understand. I suggest you roll up
    > the sleeves and get busy.


    Visual Basic is actually a rather strange language.
    The closest I can get to it is Javascript. I'm not even
    sure the VB IDE has the ability to determine what methods
    are available for an object, given a declaration thereof.

    For its part Eclipse has enough to give a partial list
    (it cannot give a complete list if a routine or variable
    stores an abstract base class or an interface, but then
    Java doesn't allow calling non-specified routines without
    a successful cast anyway).

    >
    >
    >>>>
    >>>> Because Firefox is easy to use, extendable by just about anybody with 2
    >>>> chromosomes to rub together and offers opportunities for profiting from
    >>>> writing those extentions.
    >>>
    >>> Linux is easy to use, extendable by just about anybody with 2 chromosomes.

    >>
    >> Bull****. Show me ANYTHING in Linux that is as easy to pick up and program
    >> and has as much power as even Visual Basic 3 for Windows.

    >
    > Never used VB on Windows. I gave up windows back in the mid '90s,
    > because coding on it became too bloody painful. The C compiler cost a
    > bloody fortune.


    There were several back then; I have an old Borland C++
    compiler, for example. Of course nowadays one doesn't
    have to worry about NEAR and FAR, thank goodness.

    >
    >>>>
    >>>> Simply put....because Firefox listens to, and empowers, the community
    >>>> and Linux fragments into hundreds of distros with no care for empowering
    >>>> your average 7th grade programmer wannabe.
    >>>
    >>> The Linux community listens to, and empowers, the community.

    >>
    >> No. It buries it's beak in the snow.


    I was not aware that ostriches had to deal with snow;
    the traditional head burial spot is sand or loose dirt.
    (Assuming ostriches have that behavior at all; I'd have
    to look.)

    >
    > How else do you clear away the snow to lay your eggs on the warmer bare
    > rock?


    Oh, the choices. Of course it depends on the analogy,
    but one could use a snow shovel, a bulldozer, a leafblower
    (if the snow's loose enough), or even a hose filled with
    hot water.

    And assuming you're correct, this is a very logical
    explanation as to why ostriches bury their head anyway --
    to dig, not to hide.

    >
    >>It sets up NGs to blow its own horn.

    >
    > No ****, Sherlock... That's this NG's purpose. Don't like it? Then ****
    > off.
    >
    >> But it does NOT learn from Microsoft or Mozilla about making simple to use,
    >> simple to extend software for the masses.

    >
    > IOW Linux should become as virus-ridden, and a security risk as Windows
    > and firefox....
    >
    > No thank you.


    I for one don't see the problem; Evolution in particular
    is very easy to use, and runs fine on my Linux laptop.

    >
    >>> How about getting a decent newsreader, or configuring this one.

    >>
    >> As soon as you come up with a decent argument.

    >
    > You can't even follow a few simple usenet rules. No wonder you find it
    > hard to code in other languages.
    >


    Well, Visual Basic is pretty.....basic.

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    People think that libraries are safe. They're wrong. They have ideas.
    (Also occasionally ectoplasmic slime and cute librarians.)

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  12. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    * jim peremptorily fired off this memo:

    >> Why? Because Firefox is a multi-platform application.

    >
    > Bull****.


    Plonked for total dazed stupidity.

    Bye bye, jimbo.

    Others will have to bite on your silly trollery.

    --
    We've done some good work, but all of these products become obsolete so
    fast... It will be some finite number of years, and I don't know the number
    -- before our doom comes.
    -- Bill Gates, Forbes Greatest Business Stories of All Time (1997) by Daniel
    Gross ISBN 0471196533

  13. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20%marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    On Apr 18, 5:58*pm, Rick wrote:
    > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:45:54 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    > > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:11:18 -0400, Rick wrote:

    >
    > >> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    > >>> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:35:42 -0400, Ezekiel wrote:

    >
    > >>>> Both are free. Yet in LESS THAN HALF the time Firefox has amassed 20%
    > >>>> (or more) marketshare but linux continues to languish at about 0.6%.

    >
    > >>>> Firefox managed to make it and succeed. Consumers have accepted
    > >>>> Firefox.

    >
    > >>>> Linux... it's been a limp dog for over 15 years. Consumer continue to
    > >>>> reject linux.

    >
    > >>> People want firefox because it is an excellent program. People DON'T
    > >>> want desktop Linux.
    > >>> They try it and they dump it because it is a much worse experience
    > >>> than Windows is for them.

    >
    > >> I am beginning to think you are extremely stupid, or dishonest, or
    > >> both. You know very well that network effects, inertia and herd
    > >> mentality are the major reasons Linux is more widely adopted.
    > >> Dislodging a monoply is extremely hard. Dislodging and illegally
    > >> maintained monopoly is apparently almost impossible.

    >
    > > So how do you explain the massive numbers of people downloading Linux
    > > compared to the pathetic numbers of people actually using Linux?

    >
    > How do you know the numbers are all that different?
    >


    No, you're right. Millions and millions of people are downloading and
    using Linux. Only they aren't getting on the internet at all. Linux
    really has 50% of the desktop, but every user is using Linux to play
    solitaire in isolation.

  14. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    On 2008-04-19, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    > In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Gregory Shearman
    >
    > wrote
    > on 19 Apr 2008 00:29:10 GMT
    >:
    >> On 2008-04-18, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    >>
    >>> [2] Install kernel, um....need more software, like
    >>> /sbin/init and /bin/bash. (Remember, I'm a pedant! ;-))

    >>
    >> Two can play at that game. I've installed Linux from Scratch and Gentoo
    >> and I can assure you that you don't install the kernel first. It's one
    >> of the last pieces of the jigsaw.

    >
    > Very true, though it depends on the exact installation.
    > In most cases, one has to boot a LiveCD, which has a
    > prebuilt kernel that should do the basics (obviously, one
    > doesn't need the audio subsystem to install everything,
    > unless the LiveCD does an autoprobe of some sort).


    >>
    >> First you partition, install your filesystems, then put together a tool
    >> chain so that you can build your software (building a toolchain is a
    >> major enterprise in itself!).

    >
    > Toolchain? I'll admit gcc is a bear to build (Gentoo helps
    > a lot by standardizing the process[*]), but otherwise am
    > not sure what chain of tools you're referring to here,
    > unless you're referring to the stuff the kernel needs,
    > which isn't much beyond Tk and gcc -- and Tk is a
    > convenience for 'make xconfig', if I'm not mistaken.


    Hmmm... to build packages you need Automake, Autoconf, libtool, and a
    heap of gnu testing packages.. you need perl, bash and you especially
    need binutils, coreutils and many other packages useful to your system.

    You start by building these packages as static packages, then you can
    chroot into where you've installed your toolchain and then use it to
    build your system. You have to build gcc at least twice to get rid of
    the taint from the system you used to build the toolchain. If you just
    build your system using a livecd full of system tools, you aren't really
    building a system from scratch. You are including stuff from the livecd.

    It's a real enterprise, and a fun way to learn GNU/linux.

    After building and running such a system for a few years, Gentoo is a
    breeze.

    >> Once you've built your basic system
    >> software (and installed and configured it), THEN you configure, build
    >> and install your kernel.... Don't forget about your bootloader!
    >>

    >
    > And then you reboot. ;-) But like I said, I'm a pedant.
    > Linux qua Linux, even assuming one can build or *boot*
    > it in one's environment, isn't going to do all that
    > much without /sbin/init or /bin/sh (though one can do an
    > override using init= if one wishes).


    Yeah... init=/bin/sh It'll give you a command line at least.

    > Take a look near the bottom of /usr/src/linux/init/main.c,
    > in init_post().


    =======================================

    run_init_process("/sbin/init");
    run_init_process("/etc/init");
    run_init_process("/bin/init");
    run_init_process("/bin/sh");

    panic("No init found. Try passing init= option to kernel.");

    ========================================

    Nice fallback....

    > I don't know if Linux can boot from a hard drive without
    > a bootloader, though it can boot from floppy if one does
    >
    > dd if=/vmlinuz of=/dev/fd0
    >
    > (modify as necessary). Of course floppies are becoming
    > increasingly extinct...


    I always thought it was because of the buggy x86 BIOS that linux (and
    windows) required a bootloader. It starts up in 16bit mode and must be
    kicked into 32 bit mode before the kernel can be loaded... though I
    might be wrong, especially if you can boot from a floppy in such a
    manner. I haven't used a floppy in 5 years.

    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  15. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    On 2008-04-19, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    > In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Gregory Shearman
    >
    > wrote
    > on 19 Apr 2008 00:11:00 GMT
    >:
    >> On 2008-04-18, jim wrote:
    >>
    >> [snipped a heap of bull****]
    >>
    >>
    >>> Thats why you need new apps and new games for Linux to challenge Windows.
    >>> You get those by making it easier to develop for Linux than for Windows.
    >>>
    >>> I don't know how much simpler I can make this......

    >>
    >> Have you ever developed _anything_ using C, C++, Perl or any number of
    >> programming languages on Linux?
    >>
    >> Have you read the _extensive_ documentation on the Linux libc library?
    >>
    >> It is DEAD simple... even on low level languages. For higher languages
    >> like Perl it is as easy or as hard as you want to make it.
    >>
    >> You sound like a novice programmer who only knows one language. There's
    >> a world out there that you don't even understand. I suggest you roll up
    >> the sleeves and get busy.

    >
    > Visual Basic is actually a rather strange language.
    > The closest I can get to it is Javascript. I'm not even
    > sure the VB IDE has the ability to determine what methods
    > are available for an object, given a declaration thereof.


    But you can just use vim with a split screen open to the relevant *.hh
    file that holds the declaration (or whatever they call them in VB). It's
    not rocket science. If you are using an external library you've got the
    docs at your fingertips. I don't really see any productivity gains,
    except for absolute novices. I can envisage such a comprehensive IDE
    actually getting in the way of productivity for experienced programmers.

    >>>
    >>> Bull****. Show me ANYTHING in Linux that is as easy to pick up and program
    >>> and has as much power as even Visual Basic 3 for Windows.

    >>
    >> Never used VB on Windows. I gave up windows back in the mid '90s,
    >> because coding on it became too bloody painful. The C compiler cost a
    >> bloody fortune.

    >
    > There were several back then; I have an old Borland C++
    > compiler, for example. Of course nowadays one doesn't
    > have to worry about NEAR and FAR, thank goodness.


    Microsoft C cost me a fortune. About 500 bucks in the very early 90s.

    NEAR and FAR pointers... FFS... 16 bit and 32 bit all mixed up together.
    You may as well be using assembler and stuffing about with AX vs EAX.

    > I was not aware that ostriches had to deal with snow;
    > the traditional head burial spot is sand or loose dirt.
    > (Assuming ostriches have that behavior at all; I'd have
    > to look.)
    >
    >>
    >> How else do you clear away the snow to lay your eggs on the warmer bare
    >> rock?

    >
    > Oh, the choices. Of course it depends on the analogy,
    > but one could use a snow shovel, a bulldozer, a leafblower
    > (if the snow's loose enough), or even a hose filled with
    > hot water.


    Actually, I was talking about how penguins, use their beaks to move
    snow so that they can lay their eggs on bare rock, which is warmer than
    snow. These birds are the toughest animal on Earth IMO.

    > And assuming you're correct, this is a very logical
    > explanation as to why ostriches bury their head anyway --
    > to dig, not to hide.


    No.. I'm not talking ostriches.. that's what the previous poster was
    attempting to intimate.

    >>>It sets up NGs to blow its own horn.

    >>
    >> No ****, Sherlock... That's this NG's purpose. Don't like it? Then ****
    >> off.
    >>
    >>> But it does NOT learn from Microsoft or Mozilla about making simple to use,
    >>> simple to extend software for the masses.

    >>
    >> IOW Linux should become as virus-ridden, and a security risk as Windows
    >> and firefox....
    >>
    >> No thank you.

    >
    > I for one don't see the problem; Evolution in particular
    > is very easy to use, and runs fine on my Linux laptop.


    I haven't used it for years. Used to run like a dog when I ran it under
    Redhat 6.1.

    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  16. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    jim wrote:
    >> Why? Because Firefox is a multi-platform application.

    >
    > Bull****.
    >
    > (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_for_Mac)
    > -----
    >
    > "As a result of the five-year agreement between Apple and Microsoft in 1997,
    > it was the default browser on Mac OS before it was replaced by Apple's own
    > Safari web browser in 2003. Internet Explorer for Mac remained available for
    > download from Microsoft until January 31, 2006. However, no major updates
    > had been released since March 27, 2000, aside from bug fixes and updates to
    > take advantage of new features in Mac OS X.


    So what?
    That's not multiplatform.
    That's dual platform.
    Multiplatform means...
    windows
    macos
    linux
    sunos
    irix
    freebsd
    beos
    etc etc etc

    Where's IE for them, eh?
    I believe microsoft dumped the ie for unix back in the 90s?

    Firefox'll compile and run on all of those.
    (though it might require a little tweeking to get it going on beos, what
    with it being a dead platform)

    James... quit now.... Comparing linux to firefox is as idiotic as comparing
    a bugatti veyron with a block of flats.
    --
    | |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack|
    | spike1@freenet.co.uk |in the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you|
    | |can't move, with no hope of rescue. |
    | Andrew Halliwell BSc |Consider how lucky you are that life has been |
    | in |good to you so far... |
    | Computer Science | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy.|

  17. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%


    "Linonut" wrote in message
    news:1hmOj.27411$Q52.9219@bignews9.bellsouth.net.. .
    >* jim peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >>> Why? Because Firefox is a multi-platform application.

    >>
    >> Bull****.

    >
    > Plonked for total dazed stupidity.
    >
    > Bye bye, jimbo.
    >
    > Others will have to bite on your silly trollery.


    Yes. Do run away.

    Thats what COLA always does.

    No need to change course now - things are going so well for you.

    0.3% increase per year should be good enough for anybody!

    jim



  18. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    jim wrote:
    > "Linonut" wrote in message
    > news:1hmOj.27411$Q52.9219@bignews9.bellsouth.net.. .
    >> * jim peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>
    >>>> Why? Because Firefox is a multi-platform application.
    >>>
    >>> Bull****.

    >>
    >> Plonked for total dazed stupidity.
    >>
    >> Bye bye, jimbo.
    >>
    >> Others will have to bite on your silly trollery.

    >
    > Yes. Do run away.
    >
    > Thats what COLA always does.
    >
    > No need to change course now - things are going so well for you.
    >
    > 0.3% increase per year should be good enough for anybody!


    There are already two VBs for Linux, so what's next on your bullet list for
    Linux domination - read and write MS Office files?





  19. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20%marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 06:26:11 -0700, cc wrote:

    > On Apr 18, 5:58*pm, Rick wrote:
    >> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 17:45:54 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >> > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:11:18 -0400, Rick wrote:

    >>
    >> >> Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >> >>> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:35:42 -0400, Ezekiel wrote:

    >>
    >> >>>> Both are free. Yet in LESS THAN HALF the time Firefox has amassed
    >> >>>> 20% (or more) marketshare but linux continues to languish at about
    >> >>>> 0.6%.

    >>
    >> >>>> Firefox managed to make it and succeed. Consumers have accepted
    >> >>>> Firefox.

    >>
    >> >>>> Linux... it's been a limp dog for over 15 years. Consumer continue
    >> >>>> to reject linux.

    >>
    >> >>> People want firefox because it is an excellent program. People
    >> >>> DON'T want desktop Linux.
    >> >>> They try it and they dump it because it is a much worse experience
    >> >>> than Windows is for them.

    >>
    >> >> I am beginning to think you are extremely stupid, or dishonest, or
    >> >> both. You know very well that network effects, inertia and herd
    >> >> mentality are the major reasons Linux is more widely adopted.
    >> >> Dislodging a monoply is extremely hard. Dislodging and illegally
    >> >> maintained monopoly is apparently almost impossible.

    >>
    >> > So how do you explain the massive numbers of people downloading Linux
    >> > compared to the pathetic numbers of people actually using Linux?

    >>
    >> How do you know the numbers are all that different?
    >>
    >>

    > No, you're right. Millions and millions of people are downloading and
    > using Linux. Only they aren't getting on the internet at all. Linux
    > really has 50% of the desktop, but every user is using Linux to play
    > solitaire in isolation.


    You just love to jump to conclusions, don't you?

    How do you count people that DL multiple distros to test, while "using"
    on?

    How do you count the number of people downloading distos?

    And yes, I, and probably most Linux advocates, understand that there are
    many more downloads than there are single users.

    --
    Rick

  20. Re: What the hell is wrong with linux. In 5 years Firefox has 20% ?marketshare. After 15 years linux has 0.6%

    Rick wrote:
    > And yes, I, and probably most Linux advocates, understand that there are
    > many more downloads than there are single users.
    >


    But then again, if the person burned more than one cd, in order to hand it
    to some friends, that may actually swing the balance slightly...

    There IS no way to determine the number of installs.
    Never has been, never will be.
    --
    | spike1@freenet.co.uk | |
    | Andrew Halliwell BSc | "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't |
    | in | suck is probably the day they start making |
    | Computer science | vacuum cleaners" - Ernst Jan Plugge |

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