How standards work in the real world - Linux

This is a discussion on How standards work in the real world - Linux ; * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo: > On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:49:05 -0400, Linonut wrote: > >> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo: >> >>> There was definitely bad blood between them, but Gary Edwards ...

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Thread: How standards work in the real world

  1. Re: How standards work in the real world

    * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:49:05 -0400, Linonut wrote:
    >
    >> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>
    >>> There was definitely bad blood between them, but Gary Edwards was not
    >>> anti-ODF until Sun assasinated his character to stop him from seeking
    >>> compatibility between ODF and Office.

    >>
    >> That's /your/ story, anyway.

    >
    > No, that's his story. I have a sneaking suspicion we'll see the same thing
    > happen to Patrick Durusau.


    You mean the guy whom Microsoft suborned?

    Sounds like this conversation's turning into a funky shuffle and a
    mindless back-n-forth.


  2. Re: How standards work in the real world

    On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:05:59 -0400, Linonut wrote:

    > * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:49:05 -0400, Linonut wrote:
    >>
    >>> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>>
    >>>> There was definitely bad blood between them, but Gary Edwards was not
    >>>> anti-ODF until Sun assasinated his character to stop him from seeking
    >>>> compatibility between ODF and Office.
    >>>
    >>> That's /your/ story, anyway.

    >>
    >> No, that's his story. I have a sneaking suspicion we'll see the same thing
    >> happen to Patrick Durusau.

    >
    > You mean the guy whom Microsoft suborned?


    No, the guy who seems to be objective about the whole thing.

    > Sounds like this conversation's turning into a funky shuffle and a
    > mindless back-n-forth.


    Sounds like you've run out of excuses.

  3. Re: How standards work in the real world

    * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:05:59 -0400, Linonut wrote:
    >
    >> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>
    >>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:49:05 -0400, Linonut wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>>>
    >>>>> There was definitely bad blood between them, but Gary Edwards was not
    >>>>> anti-ODF until Sun assasinated his character to stop him from seeking
    >>>>> compatibility between ODF and Office.
    >>>>
    >>>> That's /your/ story, anyway.
    >>>
    >>> No, that's his story. I have a sneaking suspicion we'll see the same thing
    >>> happen to Patrick Durusau.

    >>
    >> You mean the guy whom Microsoft suborned?

    >
    > No, the guy who seems to be objective about the whole thing.


    After doing a complete 180?

    >> Sounds like this conversation's turning into a funky shuffle and a
    >> mindless back-n-forth.

    >
    > Sounds like you've run out of excuses.


    Nope, just patience with the simplistic point/counterpoint thingie we're
    doing right now.

    What Microsoft is doing right now is unethical and cynical.

    --
    It's fine to celebrate success but it is more important to heed the lessons
    of failure.
    -- Bill Gates

  4. Re: How standards work in the real world

    On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:51:59 -0400, Linonut wrote:

    > What Microsoft is doing right now is unethical and cynical.


    So says the person you are parroting.
    Tell me, do you see any facts to back up the claims Roy Schestowitz is
    making and that you are shilling?

    Do you actually read what he writes and look up the references he posts?

    I doubt it.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  5. Re: How standards work in the real world

    On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:51:59 -0400, Linonut wrote:

    > * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:05:59 -0400, Linonut wrote:
    >>
    >>> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>>
    >>>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:49:05 -0400, Linonut wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> There was definitely bad blood between them, but Gary Edwards was not
    >>>>>> anti-ODF until Sun assasinated his character to stop him from seeking
    >>>>>> compatibility between ODF and Office.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> That's /your/ story, anyway.
    >>>>
    >>>> No, that's his story. I have a sneaking suspicion we'll see the same thing
    >>>> happen to Patrick Durusau.
    >>>
    >>> You mean the guy whom Microsoft suborned?

    >>
    >> No, the guy who seems to be objective about the whole thing.

    >
    > After doing a complete 180?


    You'll have a hard time supporting that claim. Please point out where he
    has ever claimed OOXML shouldn't be adopted.

    >>> Sounds like this conversation's turning into a funky shuffle and a
    >>> mindless back-n-forth.

    >>
    >> Sounds like you've run out of excuses.

    >
    > Nope, just patience with the simplistic point/counterpoint thingie we're
    > doing right now.
    >
    > What Microsoft is doing right now is unethical and cynical.


    I don't think that word means what you think it means.

    What Microsoft is doing is responding to the dirty tricks being played by
    their competitors.

  6. Re: How standards work in the real world

    In article ,
    Linonut wrote:
    > > No, that's his story. I have a sneaking suspicion we'll see the same thing
    > > happen to Patrick Durusau.

    >
    > You mean the guy whom Microsoft suborned?
    >
    > Sounds like this conversation's turning into a funky shuffle and a
    > mindless back-n-forth.


    Oh, look, Linonut is *again* unquestioningly accepting something because
    Roy claimed it.

    Erik's talking about the Patrick Durusau that Sun decided last month to
    rehire so he can continue on ODF 1.2, and they praised him thus:

    Carl Cargill, Sun's Director of Corporate Standards states, "Patrick
    has earned the respect of the document standards community for his
    expertise in editing ODF 1.0 and his fairness in conducting a
    difficult but thorough US national-body review of DIS 29500 (an
    alternative document standard). Sun's contribution ensures his
    continued availability as editor of ODF as that International
    Standard is updated and maintained by a diverse community of
    individuals, corporations, and governments."



    There's been no creditable source *whatsoever* that he was bribed and is
    willfully committing perjury.

    --
    --Tim Smith

  7. Re: How standards work in the real world

    Moshe Goldfarb writes:

    > On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:51:59 -0400, Linonut wrote:
    >
    >> What Microsoft is doing right now is unethical and cynical.

    >
    > So says the person you are parroting.
    > Tell me, do you see any facts to back up the claims Roy Schestowitz is
    > making and that you are shilling?
    >
    > Do you actually read what he writes and look up the references he posts?
    >
    > I doubt it.


    As I called it with Mark Kent being a "reverse troll" I would also like
    it on record that Liarnut rarely reads the posts he replies too.

    Please acknowledge, confirm and bookmark.

  8. Re: How standards work in the real world

    * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:

    >> What Microsoft is doing right now is unethical and cynical.

    >
    > I don't think that word means what you think it means.
    >
    > What Microsoft is doing is responding to the dirty tricks being played by
    > their competitors.


    Yeah, IBM is sure working hard to maintain its Lotus Notes monopoly, and
    Sun is working hard to maintain its StarOffice monopoly. Not to mention
    the large profit margins from those products.

    Yeah, that must be what's going on.

    --
    "Microsoft has had competitors in the past. It's a good thing we have
    museums to document this stuff."
    -- Bill Gates, in a talk at the Computer History Museum
    in Mountain View, Calif.

  9. Re: How standards work in the real world

    * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > In article ,
    > Linonut wrote:
    >> > No, that's his story. I have a sneaking suspicion we'll see the same thing
    >> > happen to Patrick Durusau.

    >>
    >> You mean the guy whom Microsoft suborned?
    >>
    >> Sounds like this conversation's turning into a funky shuffle and a
    >> mindless back-n-forth.

    >
    > Oh, look, Linonut is *again* unquestioningly accepting something because
    > Roy claimed it.


    Not at all Tim.

    Try "Groklaw".

    http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic....80229171250199

    One, Patrick Durusau, who is the project editor in both OASIS and
    also ISO/IEC, for ODF, about a week ago wrote an open letter [PDF]
    which basically -- the link is in my blog post -- but basically says:
    "Hey, you know, let's get real here. Microsoft's come a long way, the
    standard is pretty good, let's just adapt it, you know, things just
    have happened the way they were supposed to, maybe we're not happy
    about some of the tactics along the way, but people joined in, they
    improved it, now it's worth it, let's adopt."

    I think that this is a classic example of seeing the trees and not
    the forest.

    http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/03/...au-part-1.html

    From the start Patrick has remained publicly silent on the topic of
    OOXML. No blog posts, no press, nothing. If you asked, he would say
    that this was his policy. Privately, you would get an earful (all
    negative), but as befits the unbiased chair of the committee
    which is responsible for the technical recommendation for the US NB,
    he kept his personal opinions out of the public arena.

    This public orientation changed recently. As best I can figure it, on
    returning from a conference in Seattle in late January, Patrick was a
    changed man. Patrick is now an enthusiastic OOXML supporter and is
    eager to inform the world of his delight in OOXML at every
    opportunity. He posts his "open letters" on his web site, which are
    linked to, often within minutes, by the various Microsoft bloggers,
    and then sent around by Microsoft employees to the press and the
    various JTC1 NB's.

    > Erik's talking about the Patrick Durusau that Sun decided last month to
    > rehire so he can continue on ODF 1.2, and they praised him thus:


    Whatever.

    > There's been no creditable source *whatsoever* that he was bribed and is
    > willfully committing perjury.


    Suborns primary meaning is to induce to commit illegal or evil acts, and
    it is to the latter that I'm referring.

    Maybe all he got was a lot of indoctrination and promises. Even if that
    is all it is, then he's a fool.

    The only way to trust Microsoft on /anything/ is to have an ironclad,
    lawyer-analyzed, all-possible-situations-covered contract with them.

    Dealing with Microsoft on any other basis is insanity, if you're doing
    anything that might intrude on their turf.

    --
    Television is not real life. In real life people actually have to leave the
    coffee shop and go to jobs.
    -- Bill Gates

  10. Re: How standards work in the real world

    In article ,
    Linonut wrote:
    > >>
    > >> You mean the guy whom Microsoft suborned?
    > >>
    > >> Sounds like this conversation's turning into a funky shuffle and a
    > >> mindless back-n-forth.

    > >
    > > Oh, look, Linonut is *again* unquestioningly accepting something because
    > > Roy claimed it.

    >
    > Not at all Tim.
    >
    > Try "Groklaw".
    >
    > http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic....80229171250199
    >
    > One, Patrick Durusau, who is the project editor in both OASIS and
    > also ISO/IEC, for ODF, about a week ago wrote an open letter [PDF]
    > which basically -- the link is in my blog post -- but basically says:
    > "Hey, you know, let's get real here. Microsoft's come a long way, the
    > standard is pretty good, let's just adapt it, you know, things just
    > have happened the way they were supposed to, maybe we're not happy
    > about some of the tactics along the way, but people joined in, they
    > improved it, now it's worth it, let's adopt."
    >
    > I think that this is a classic example of seeing the trees and not
    > the forest.


    Note that contains no accusation of being suborned.

    >
    > http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/03/...au-part-1.html
    >
    > From the start Patrick has remained publicly silent on the topic of
    > OOXML. No blog posts, no press, nothing. If you asked, he would say
    > that this was his policy. Privately, you would get an earful (all
    > negative), but as befits the unbiased chair of the committee
    > which is responsible for the technical recommendation for the US NB,
    > he kept his personal opinions out of the public arena.
    >
    > This public orientation changed recently. As best I can figure it, on
    > returning from a conference in Seattle in late January, Patrick was a
    > changed man. Patrick is now an enthusiastic OOXML supporter and is
    > eager to inform the world of his delight in OOXML at every
    > opportunity. He posts his "open letters" on his web site, which are
    > linked to, often within minutes, by the various Microsoft bloggers,
    > and then sent around by Microsoft employees to the press and the
    > various JTC1 NB's.


    And that contains a greatly exaggerated description, from someone whose
    job it is to slam OOXML and anyone who remotely says anything positive
    about it. Great source there, Linonut. (And one of Roy's main sources,
    too...at least your are cutting out the middleman).

    > > Erik's talking about the Patrick Durusau that Sun decided last month to
    > > rehire so he can continue on ODF 1.2, and they praised him thus:

    >
    > Whatever.


    You seem to place great stock in the words of people who are paid to
    have their opinions, but when the company with the biggest interest of
    anyone in the success of ODF rehires Mr. Durusau to continue his major
    role in ODF, and publicly and officially praise his expertise and
    fairness, that just gets a "whatever"?

    --
    --Tim Smith

  11. Re: How standards work in the real world

    In article ,
    Linonut wrote:
    > > What Microsoft is doing is responding to the dirty tricks being played by
    > > their competitors.

    >
    > Yeah, IBM is sure working hard to maintain its Lotus Notes monopoly, and
    > Sun is working hard to maintain its StarOffice monopoly. Not to mention
    > the large profit margins from those products.
    >
    > Yeah, that must be what's going on.


    This may come as a surprise to you, but IBM has business interests
    beyond Lotus Notes, and Sun has a few things going on besides StarOffice.


    --
    --Tim Smith

  12. Re: How standards work in the real world

    * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > In article ,
    > Linonut wrote:
    >> > What Microsoft is doing is responding to the dirty tricks being played by
    >> > their competitors.

    >>
    >> Yeah, IBM is sure working hard to maintain its Lotus Notes monopoly, and
    >> Sun is working hard to maintain its StarOffice monopoly. Not to mention
    >> the large profit margins from those products.
    >>
    >> Yeah, that must be what's going on.

    >
    > This may come as a surprise to you, but IBM has business interests
    > beyond Lotus Notes, and Sun has a few things going on besides StarOffice.


    It doesn't come as a surprise to me that you took what I said and tried
    to spin it into something else by bringing in unrelated material.

    But okay, I'll add an addendum.

    I'm sure IBM and Sun are working their dirty tricks hard so that they
    can be able to provide their automated-process outputs in standard
    formats that the governments will accept.

    OOXML is simply Microsoft's trojan-horse into ISO standards. It will
    end up being as meaningful as ECMA 234. It will be a subset of what is
    actually implemented, and Microsoft will ignore the standard once it is
    in place. They will have their acquisition checkbox checked.

    --
    We don't have the user centricity. Until we understand context, which is way
    beyond presence -- presence is the most trivial notion, just am I on this
    device or not; it doesn't say am I meeting with something, am I focused on
    writing something.
    -- Bill Gates, .NET Briefing Day Speech (24 July 2002)

  13. Re: How standards work in the real world

    * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > And that contains a greatly exaggerated description, from someone whose
    > job it is to slam OOXML and anyone who remotely says anything positive
    > about it.


    That's your claim, Tim.

    I don't believe your claim.

    > Great source there, Linonut. (And one of Roy's main sources,
    > too...at least your are cutting out the middleman).


    Well, it's pretty difficult to argue with someone who claims any source
    I quote is a shill for IBM and Sun's agenda.

    >> Whatever.

    >
    > You seem to place great stock in the words of people who are paid to
    > have their opinions, but when the company with the biggest interest of
    > anyone in the success of ODF rehires Mr. Durusau to continue his major
    > role in ODF, and publicly and officially praise his expertise and
    > fairness, that just gets a "whatever"?


    Are Sun praising Mr. Durusau now, Tim?

    And are you paid to present your opinions? Even if not, why would I
    believe your opinions more than the opinions I see on the internet? You
    haven't shown me that your unbiased and entirely accurate in what you
    say. The problem is, you slip too easily into allusion and spin, which
    may be good tools for sophistry, but not for logic. Your becoming as
    suspect in that regard as Erik is.

    In any case, claiming that some fanciful IBM/Sun machinations on ODF are
    comparable to Microsoft's well-documented behavior in regard to national
    bodies is utterly laughable.

    Next you'll be telling me Microsoft has Mother Teresa on staff.

    --
    Technology is just a tool. In terms of getting the kids working together and
    motivating them, the teacher is the most important.
    -- Bill Gates

  14. Re: How standards work in the real world

    On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 01:51:37 -0400, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:


    >> My conclusion: If OOXML passes, Microsoft wins everyone else loses.
    >> OOXML is NOT in the best interests of anyone _except_ Microsoft.

    >
    > That's bull. It's in the best interest of anyone that wants to
    > interoperate with Microsoft office documents. It's disingenuous to say
    > otherwise.


    Bull****. Microsoft could easily release full and proper documentation on
    their formats. They don't need to put it into an ISO format. If Microsoft
    was truly interested in interoperability, they would've released that
    information years ago. They aren't, so they haven't. Instead they get
    their little minions to parrot the party line that the ISO format will
    ensure compatibility.


  15. Re: How standards work in the real world

    alt espoused:
    > On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 01:51:37 -0400, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >
    >
    >>> My conclusion: If OOXML passes, Microsoft wins everyone else loses.
    >>> OOXML is NOT in the best interests of anyone _except_ Microsoft.

    >>
    >> That's bull. It's in the best interest of anyone that wants to
    >> interoperate with Microsoft office documents. It's disingenuous to say
    >> otherwise.

    >
    > Bull****. Microsoft could easily release full and proper documentation on
    > their formats. They don't need to put it into an ISO format. If Microsoft
    > was truly interested in interoperability, they would've released that
    > information years ago. They aren't, so they haven't. Instead they get
    > their little minions to parrot the party line that the ISO format will
    > ensure compatibility.
    >


    Microsoft have said themselves that they have no intention of supporting
    the standard anyway.

    --
    | mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
    | Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
    | Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
    | Open platforms prevent vendor lock-in. Own your Own services! |


  16. Re: How standards work in the real world

    In article ,
    Mark Kent wrote:
    > Microsoft have said themselves that they have no intention of supporting
    > the standard anyway.


    Mark, of course, lies. Microsoft has said they will update their
    products to the version of the spec that is approved by ISO.

    --
    --Tim Smith

  17. Re: How standards work in the real world

    On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 02:59:25 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:

    > In article ,
    > Mark Kent wrote:
    >> Microsoft have said themselves that they have no intention of
    >> supporting the standard anyway.

    >
    > Mark, of course, lies. Microsoft has said they will update their
    > products to the version of the spec that is approved by ISO.


    And then how long will it take them to alter their use of the standard
    like they did with kerberos?



    --
    Rick

  18. Re: How standards work in the real world

    * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > In article ,
    > Mark Kent wrote:
    >> Microsoft have said themselves that they have no intention of supporting
    >> the standard anyway.

    >
    > Mark, of course, lies. Microsoft has said they will update their
    > products to the version of the spec that is approved by ISO.


    Q: Is a Microsoft promise even as binding as a Microsoft NDA?

    A: Only if it binds the Microsoft "partner".

    --
    He is divisive. He is manipulative. He is a user. He has taken much from me and
    the industry.
    -- Gary Kildall, in notes for an unpublished memoir Computer Connections.

  19. Re: How standards work in the real world

    On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 02:59:25 -0700, Tim Smith wrote:

    > In article ,
    > Mark Kent wrote:
    >> Microsoft have said themselves that they have no intention of supporting
    >> the standard anyway.

    >
    > Mark, of course, lies. Microsoft has said they will update their
    > products to the version of the spec that is approved by ISO.


    Mark Kent is the biggest joke in COLA.
    Since he was exposed as a total hypocrite his ranting's have only gotten
    loonier.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  20. Re: How standards work in the real world

    On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 09:59:34 +0100, Mark Kent wrote:

    > alt espoused:
    >> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 01:51:37 -0400, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>> My conclusion: If OOXML passes, Microsoft wins everyone else loses.
    >>>> OOXML is NOT in the best interests of anyone _except_ Microsoft.
    >>>
    >>> That's bull. It's in the best interest of anyone that wants to
    >>> interoperate with Microsoft office documents. It's disingenuous to say
    >>> otherwise.

    >>
    >> Bull****. Microsoft could easily release full and proper documentation on
    >> their formats. They don't need to put it into an ISO format. If Microsoft
    >> was truly interested in interoperability, they would've released that
    >> information years ago. They aren't, so they haven't. Instead they get
    >> their little minions to parrot the party line that the ISO format will
    >> ensure compatibility.
    >>

    >
    > Microsoft have said themselves that they have no intention of supporting
    > the standard anyway.


    That's a lie, Mark.

    Microsoft has said they can't commit to supporting it, which is not the
    same thing as saying they have no intention of supporting it.

    They are simply saying the same thing everyone else says about ODF, they
    don't commit to supporting it, but they will so long as it meets their
    goals.

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