Windows is Easier - Linux

This is a discussion on Windows is Easier - Linux ; For various reasons, I need to use PHP to do some SNMP polling and dump the results in a MySQL database. No problem. Linux? Install (via the pointy-clicky-GUI-thingy) php5-cli, php5-snmp and php5-mysql. Write code, test code, code works. Hmm. Might ...

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Thread: Windows is Easier

  1. Windows is Easier

    For various reasons, I need to use PHP to do some SNMP polling and dump
    the results in a MySQL database.

    No problem. Linux? Install (via the pointy-clicky-GUI-thingy) php5-cli,
    php5-snmp and php5-mysql. Write code, test code, code works. Hmm. Might
    need it to run off a Windows box, too.

    No prob, download the Windows PHP installer. Install PHP, plus the SNMP
    and MySQL extensions. All's well, right?

    Not quite. Identical code, but when run on the Windows side, it spews
    errors - cannot locate MIBs and the like. Ick.

    Assorted hunting around shows that the MIB data - which you need in order
    for this sort of thing to work - is stored not with the PHP install, nor
    with the , but in My Documents\php.

    Let's repeat that: for some reason, the PHP installer has put stuff into a
    _document_ folder. Which might make some degree of sense, I suppose, if
    it had _just_ put the MIB data there; instead it put the extensions there;
    there are some 45 DLLs in a directory under _My Documents_.

    Figuring out what the actual problem was - that the MIBs are stored
    separately - then locating them, putting them somewhere sane and figuring
    out how to get the PHP system to look for them there was, oh, a half hour
    or so faffing around on the net.

    All to do a job which three mouse clicks at install time accomplished in
    Linux.

    But let's remember, folks, Windows is easier, Windows is user friendly.

    No, this is not the fault of MS, nor even of Windows itself; it is,
    presumably, an issue of how the PHP installer works. It is, however, a
    handy refutation of the nonsense view than Windows is universally better,
    simpler, friendlier.

  2. Re: Windows is Easier

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Kelsey Bjarnason

    wrote
    on Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:00:47 -0700
    :
    > For various reasons, I need to use PHP to do some SNMP polling and dump
    > the results in a MySQL database.
    >
    > No problem. Linux? Install (via the pointy-clicky-GUI-thingy) php5-cli,
    > php5-snmp and php5-mysql. Write code, test code, code works. Hmm. Might
    > need it to run off a Windows box, too.
    >
    > No prob, download the Windows PHP installer. Install PHP, plus the SNMP
    > and MySQL extensions. All's well, right?
    >
    > Not quite. Identical code, but when run on the Windows side, it spews
    > errors - cannot locate MIBs and the like. Ick.
    >
    > Assorted hunting around shows that the MIB data - which you need in order
    > for this sort of thing to work - is stored not with the PHP install, nor
    > with the , but in My Documents\php.
    >
    > Let's repeat that: for some reason, the PHP installer has put stuff into a
    > _document_ folder. Which might make some degree of sense, I suppose, if
    > it had _just_ put the MIB data there; instead it put the extensions there;
    > there are some 45 DLLs in a directory under _My Documents_.
    >
    > Figuring out what the actual problem was - that the MIBs are stored
    > separately - then locating them, putting them somewhere sane and figuring
    > out how to get the PHP system to look for them there was, oh, a half hour
    > or so faffing around on the net.
    >
    > All to do a job which three mouse clicks at install time accomplished in
    > Linux.
    >
    > But let's remember, folks, Windows is easier, Windows is user friendly.
    >
    > No, this is not the fault of MS, nor even of Windows itself; it is,
    > presumably, an issue of how the PHP installer works. It is, however, a
    > handy refutation of the nonsense view than Windows is universally better,
    > simpler, friendlier.



    I'll admit at one level I see Windows and X/Gnome as
    roughly the same. However, that issue might be because
    Windows has corrupted the debate, and of course at
    another level Linux is much more reliable; Windows has
    a bad habit of corrupting *itself*, nowadays.

    Prior to Windows 95 or so, no one really paid much
    heed to the notion of a "desktop" AFAICR; at best, one
    had a screen with a number of windows, at least in the
    Motif timeframe (mid-80's to early 90's). CDE allowed for
    multiple groups of windows -- not sure if they called them
    screens or workspaces. olvwm had a similar concept on
    Solaris equipment. I'm old enough to remember NeWS, though
    X11 replaced it quickly enough.

    X actually has some minor design deficiencies in the
    desktop area, though presumably they're not all that
    problematic; I'm not sure how Nautilus gets a borderless
    backdrop window, though. (The concept thereof I first
    saw on the Amiga, though Multifinder might have had a
    similar concept. Intuition allowed an application to
    specify a BACKDROP flag or some such; the resultant
    window would occupy the screen, with the screen title
    draped over it, if the application bothered to set it.)

    At one point the talk was about saving sessions, and xsm
    to this day still exists -- though I'm not sure how useful
    it is now.

    And of course X easily supported remote connection, either
    through DISPLAY=remotehost:0 and xhost, or by
    today's method of encrypted ssh tunnelling.

    Now? Everyone needs a desktop -- including freeware.
    Never mind that what one actually sees is usually
    vertically presented to the eyeball (there are some monitor
    solutions that actually mount the monitor under a glass
    sheet under a user's desktop, and one stares through the
    sheet to see one's information -- supposedly, this is
    easier on the neck and such, but I for one would quickly
    cover the monitor view glass with papers -- yeah, yeah,
    I'm a slob :-P ) and is a mix of strange little icons
    as opposed to coffee cups, phones, papers, paper clips,
    tape dispensers, pens, staplers, and other such stuff.

    As for PHP -- an interesting distinction between the two
    systems, and a reminder that porting occasionally runs into
    some oddball corner cases.

    It might depend on what one considers "easy". I have no
    problem writing strange one-time-only bash scripts, something
    along the lines of

    $ find . -type f -mtime +7 | xargs gzip

    as opposed to

    click a directory
    look through files
    drag and drop desired files to compressor[*]
    click another directory
    look through files
    drag and drop desired files to compressor
    repeat ad nauseum until done

    Which is easier? Well, the script might require some
    thought, but the iconic view, while easy enough, quickly
    becomes very tedious if one has a lot of directories.

    Phooey on Windows. :-P Of course, to be fair, I cut my
    teeth on programmable calculators, punch cards, punched
    paper tape and teletypes, and Unix, roughly in that order.
    Nowadays everyone just sees Windows gooey-fied stuff, and
    assumes that's the norm.

    The sad thing is: Windows *is* the norm, and until
    Linux distros are clearly better -- at this point,
    the cognoscenti will (hopefully!) recognize them as an
    improvement, but the individual user will probably see
    "oh, desktop, icons, mouse pointer, same diff" -- Windows
    might likely remain so.

    Sigh. The Amiga was such fun, back then. At least one
    could watch an animated fire hydrant reacting to a passing
    dog at one point, anyway. Sure beats a stupid paper clip. :-P
    [*] Not sure winzip would do this, or not, as it's more of
    an archiver with compression capability, rather than
    a simple file compressor.

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #11823822:
    signal(SIGKILL, catchkill);

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  3. Re: Windows is Easier

    After takin' a swig o' grog, The Ghost In The Machine belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > X actually has some minor design deficiencies in the
    > desktop area, though presumably they're not all that
    > problematic; I'm not sure how Nautilus gets a borderless
    > backdrop window, though. (The concept thereof I first
    > saw on the Amiga, though Multifinder might have had a
    > similar concept. Intuition allowed an application to
    > specify a BACKDROP flag or some such; the resultant
    > window would occupy the screen, with the screen title
    > draped over it, if the application bothered to set it.)


    Removing the window decorations must be pretty easy. The
    console terminal, mrxvt, let's you toggle the window decorations on and
    off.

    > It might depend on what one considers "easy". I have no
    > problem writing strange one-time-only bash scripts, something
    > along the lines of
    >
    > $ find . -type f -mtime +7 | xargs gzip
    >
    > as opposed to
    >
    > click a directory
    > look through files
    > drag and drop desired files to compressor[*]
    > click another directory
    > look through files
    > drag and drop desired files to compressor
    > repeat ad nauseum until done
    >
    > Which is easier? Well, the script might require some
    > thought, but the iconic view, while easy enough, quickly
    > becomes very tedious if one has a lot of directories.


    Quick scripts (and how easy it is to do them /and/ give them the same
    status as apps) are one of the beauties of UNIX.

    > Nowadays everyone just sees Windows gooey-fied stuff, and
    > assumes that's the norm.


    And it can be crippling.

    GUIs have lots of uses, but it's amazing how much time I spend in the
    console; it's just easier much of the time.

    --
    Tux rox!

  4. Re: Windows is Easier

    On Sep 18, 5:00 pm, Kelsey Bjarnason wrote:
    > For various reasons, I need to use PHP to do some SNMP polling and dump
    > the results in a MySQL database.
    >
    > No problem. Linux? Install (via the pointy-clicky-GUI-thingy) php5-cli,
    > php5-snmp and php5-mysql. Write code, test code, code works. Hmm. Might
    > need it to run off a Windows box, too.
    >
    > No prob, download the Windows PHP installer. Install PHP, plus the SNMP
    > and MySQL extensions. All's well, right?
    >
    > Not quite. Identical code, but when run on the Windows side, it spews
    > errors - cannot locate MIBs and the like. Ick.
    >
    > Assorted hunting around shows that the MIB data - which you need in order
    > for this sort of thing to work - is stored not with the PHP install, nor
    > with the , but in My Documents\php.
    >
    > Let's repeat that: for some reason, the PHP installer has put stuff into a
    > _document_ folder. Which might make some degree of sense, I suppose, if
    > it had _just_ put the MIB data there; instead it put the extensions there;
    > there are some 45 DLLs in a directory under _My Documents_.
    >
    > Figuring out what the actual problem was - that the MIBs are stored
    > separately - then locating them, putting them somewhere sane and figuring
    > out how to get the PHP system to look for them there was, oh, a half hour
    > or so faffing around on the net.
    >
    > All to do a job which three mouse clicks at install time accomplished in
    > Linux.
    >
    > But let's remember, folks, Windows is easier, Windows is user friendly.
    >
    > No, this is not the fault of MS, nor even of Windows itself; it is,
    > presumably, an issue of how the PHP installer works. It is, however, a
    > handy refutation of the nonsense view than Windows is universally better,
    > simpler, friendlier.




  5. Re: Windows is Easier

    On Sep 18, 5:00 pm, Kelsey Bjarnason wrote:
    > For various reasons, I need to use PHP to do some SNMP polling and dump
    > the results in a MySQL database.
    >
    > No problem. Linux? Install (via the pointy-clicky-GUI-thingy) php5-cli,
    > php5-snmp and php5-mysql. Write code, test code, code works. Hmm. Might
    > need it to run off a Windows box, too.
    >
    > No prob, download the Windows PHP installer. Install PHP, plus the SNMP
    > and MySQL extensions. All's well, right?
    >
    > Not quite. Identical code, but when run on the Windows side, it spews
    > errors - cannot locate MIBs and the like. Ick.
    >
    > Assorted hunting around shows that the MIB data - which you need in order
    > for this sort of thing to work - is stored not with the PHP install, nor
    > with the , but in My Documents\php.
    >
    > Let's repeat that: for some reason, the PHP installer has put stuff into a
    > _document_ folder. Which might make some degree of sense, I suppose, if
    > it had _just_ put the MIB data there; instead it put the extensions there;
    > there are some 45 DLLs in a directory under _My Documents_.
    >
    > Figuring out what the actual problem was - that the MIBs are stored
    > separately - then locating them, putting them somewhere sane and figuring
    > out how to get the PHP system to look for them there was, oh, a half hour
    > or so faffing around on the net.
    >
    > All to do a job which three mouse clicks at install time accomplished in
    > Linux.
    >
    > But let's remember, folks, Windows is easier, Windows is user friendly.
    >
    > No, this is not the fault of MS, nor even of Windows itself; it is,
    > presumably, an issue of how the PHP installer works. It is, however, a
    > handy refutation of the nonsense view than Windows is universally better,
    > simpler, friendlier.


    How is this a refutation of anything other than the ****ty software
    you downloaded?


  6. Re: Windows is Easier

    On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 15:25:14 -0700, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

    > In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Kelsey Bjarnason
    >
    > wrote
    > on Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:00:47 -0700
    > :
    >> For various reasons, I need to use PHP to do some SNMP polling and dump
    >> the results in a MySQL database.
    >>
    >> No problem. Linux? Install (via the pointy-clicky-GUI-thingy) php5-cli,
    >> php5-snmp and php5-mysql. Write code, test code, code works. Hmm. Might
    >> need it to run off a Windows box, too.
    >>
    >> No prob, download the Windows PHP installer. Install PHP, plus the SNMP
    >> and MySQL extensions. All's well, right?
    >>
    >> Not quite. Identical code, but when run on the Windows side, it spews
    >> errors - cannot locate MIBs and the like. Ick.
    >>
    >> Assorted hunting around shows that the MIB data - which you need in order
    >> for this sort of thing to work - is stored not with the PHP install, nor
    >> with the , but in My Documents\php.
    >>
    >> Let's repeat that: for some reason, the PHP installer has put stuff into a
    >> _document_ folder. Which might make some degree of sense, I suppose, if
    >> it had _just_ put the MIB data there; instead it put the extensions there;
    >> there are some 45 DLLs in a directory under _My Documents_.
    >>
    >> Figuring out what the actual problem was - that the MIBs are stored
    >> separately - then locating them, putting them somewhere sane and figuring
    >> out how to get the PHP system to look for them there was, oh, a half hour
    >> or so faffing around on the net.
    >>
    >> All to do a job which three mouse clicks at install time accomplished in
    >> Linux.
    >>
    >> But let's remember, folks, Windows is easier, Windows is user friendly.
    >>
    >> No, this is not the fault of MS, nor even of Windows itself; it is,
    >> presumably, an issue of how the PHP installer works. It is, however, a
    >> handy refutation of the nonsense view than Windows is universally better,
    >> simpler, friendlier.

    >
    >
    > I'll admit at one level I see Windows and X/Gnome as
    > roughly the same. However, that issue might be because
    > Windows has corrupted the debate, and of course at
    > another level Linux is much more reliable; Windows has
    > a bad habit of corrupting *itself*, nowadays.
    >
    > Prior to Windows 95 or so, no one really paid much
    > heed to the notion of a "desktop" AFAICR; at best, one
    > had a screen with a number of windows, at least in the
    > Motif timeframe (mid-80's to early 90's). CDE allowed for
    > multiple groups of windows -- not sure if they called them
    > screens or workspaces. olvwm had a similar concept on
    > Solaris equipment. I'm old enough to remember NeWS, though
    > X11 replaced it quickly enough.
    >
    > X actually has some minor design deficiencies in the
    > desktop area, though presumably they're not all that
    > problematic; I'm not sure how Nautilus gets a borderless
    > backdrop window, though. (The concept thereof I first
    > saw on the Amiga, though Multifinder might have had a
    > similar concept. Intuition allowed an application to
    > specify a BACKDROP flag or some such; the resultant
    > window would occupy the screen, with the screen title
    > draped over it, if the application bothered to set it.)
    >
    > At one point the talk was about saving sessions, and xsm
    > to this day still exists -- though I'm not sure how useful
    > it is now.
    >
    > And of course X easily supported remote connection, either
    > through DISPLAY=remotehost:0 and xhost, or by
    > today's method of encrypted ssh tunnelling.
    >
    > Now? Everyone needs a desktop -- including freeware.
    > Never mind that what one actually sees is usually
    > vertically presented to the eyeball (there are some monitor
    > solutions that actually mount the monitor under a glass
    > sheet under a user's desktop, and one stares through the
    > sheet to see one's information -- supposedly, this is
    > easier on the neck and such, but I for one would quickly
    > cover the monitor view glass with papers -- yeah, yeah,
    > I'm a slob :-P ) and is a mix of strange little icons
    > as opposed to coffee cups, phones, papers, paper clips,
    > tape dispensers, pens, staplers, and other such stuff.


    What you describe seems to be the oft wished for solution of wearers of
    bifocals who have not had the good sense to have a set made with the top
    set for 'computer' distance - if set up according to proper ergonomic
    principles, they must crange their head back in order to see through the
    bottom half of their bifocals. Simple enough solution.

    >
    > As for PHP -- an interesting distinction between the two
    > systems, and a reminder that porting occasionally runs into
    > some oddball corner cases.
    >
    > It might depend on what one considers "easy". I have no
    > problem writing strange one-time-only bash scripts, something
    > along the lines of
    >
    > $ find . -type f -mtime +7 | xargs gzip
    >
    > as opposed to
    >
    > click a directory
    > look through files
    > drag and drop desired files to compressor[*]
    > click another directory
    > look through files
    > drag and drop desired files to compressor
    > repeat ad nauseum until done
    >
    > Which is easier? Well, the script might require some
    > thought, but the iconic view, while easy enough, quickly
    > becomes very tedious if one has a lot of directories.
    >
    > Phooey on Windows. :-P Of course, to be fair, I cut my
    > teeth on programmable calculators, punch cards, punched
    > paper tape and teletypes, and Unix, roughly in that order.
    > Nowadays everyone just sees Windows gooey-fied stuff, and
    > assumes that's the norm.
    >
    > The sad thing is: Windows *is* the norm, and until
    > Linux distros are clearly better -- at this point,
    > the cognoscenti will (hopefully!) recognize them as an
    > improvement, but the individual user will probably see
    > "oh, desktop, icons, mouse pointer, same diff" -- Windows
    > might likely remain so.
    >
    > Sigh. The Amiga was such fun, back then. At least one
    > could watch an animated fire hydrant reacting to a passing
    > dog at one point, anyway. Sure beats a stupid paper clip. :-P
    >
    >[*] Not sure winzip would do this, or not, as it's more of
    > an archiver with compression capability, rather than
    > a simple file compressor.
    >
    > --
    > #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    > Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #11823822:
    > signal(SIGKILL, catchkill);



  7. Re: Windows is Easier

    Kelsey Bjarnason wrote:

    > Assorted hunting around shows that the MIB data - which you need in
    > order for this sort of thing to work - is stored not with the PHP
    > install, nor with the , but in My Documents\php.


    There's about 100% chance you screwed something up, or you're reading from
    the Recent Documents list (which the PHP folder got added to when you
    browsed it).

    I just ran the PHP 5.2.4 install, and it defaulted to C:\Program Files\PHP\,
    and didn't install anything to C:\Docs & Settings\\My Documents\.

    The MIB data should be in C:\Program Files\PHP\extras\mibs\.

    See C:\Program Files\PHP\install.txt for particulars.




    > No, this is not the fault of MS, nor even of Windows itself;


    But you'd love to turn it into one.





  8. Re: Windows is Easier

    On 2007-09-19, DFS wrote:
    > There's about 100% chance you screwed something up, or you're reading from


    Well, I'd say the first screwup was using PHP instead of Perl for this.
    :-)

  9. Re: Windows is Easier

    On Sep 18, 6:51 pm, Linonut wrote:
    > After takin' a swig o' grog, The Ghost In The Machine belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    > > X actually has some minor design deficiencies in the
    > > desktop area, though presumably they're not all that
    > > problematic; I'm not sure how Nautilus gets a borderless
    > > backdrop window, though. (The concept thereof I first
    > > saw on the Amiga, though Multifinder might have had a
    > > similar concept. Intuition allowed an application to
    > > specify a BACKDROP flag or some such; the resultant
    > > window would occupy the screen, with the screen title
    > > draped over it, if the application bothered to set it.)

    >
    > Removing the window decorations must be pretty easy. The
    > console terminal, mrxvt, let's you toggle the window decorations on and
    > off.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > It might depend on what one considers "easy". I have no
    > > problem writing strange one-time-only bash scripts, something
    > > along the lines of

    >
    > > $ find . -type f -mtime +7 | xargs gzip

    >
    > > as opposed to

    >
    > > click a directory
    > > look through files
    > > drag and drop desired files to compressor[*]
    > > click another directory
    > > look through files
    > > drag and drop desired files to compressor
    > > repeat ad nauseum until done

    >
    > > Which is easier? Well, the script might require some
    > > thought, but the iconic view, while easy enough, quickly
    > > becomes very tedious if one has a lot of directories.

    >
    > Quick scripts (and how easy it is to do them /and/ give them the same
    > status as apps) are one of the beauties of UNIX.
    >


    You should pick up a book on Windows PowerShell. PowerShell is
    awesome. The syntax has a vague resemblance to Perl, since it
    actually started out as a variant of Perl. But, they brought it
    around to be closer to C#. You can do the quick one liners, just like
    your traditional Unix type shell - but the cool thing about it is the
    whole concept of piping objects. What does that mean? Well if I do
    something like:

    PS C:\Users\Tom\Documents> ls | ? {$_.Length -gt 100} | sort -des -p
    length


    Directory: Microsoft.PowerShell.Core\FileSystem::C:\Users\Tom
    \Documents


    Mode LastWriteTime Length Name
    ---- ------------- ------ ----
    -a--- 7/1/2007 8:55 PM 727867392 kubuntu-7.04-desktop-
    i386.iso
    -a--- 7/2/2007 7:59 PM 29351244
    crystal_project_256x256.zip
    -a--- 7/2/2007 7:57 PM 22246177 crystal_project.tar.gz
    -a--- 7/2/2007 6:47 PM 6248207 qemu-0.9.0-windows.zip
    -a--- 9/2/2007 8:41 PM 1399427 help.pdf
    -a--- 7/2/2007 7:57 PM 81907 vmx-builder.cmd
    -a--- 7/2/2007 1:13 PM 28160 Family monthly budget
    basic.xls
    -a--- 7/2/2007 9:55 PM 28160 Family monthly budget
    July 2007.xls
    -a--- 5/13/2007 9:13 AM 26112 Enrichment Night.doc
    -a--- 5/14/2007 12:38 AM 13824 budget.xls
    -a--- 9/1/2007 6:18 PM 860 foo.txt
    -a--- 6/19/2007 6:50 PM 557 testy.pl
    -a--- 8/8/2007 11:43 AM 513 My Sharing Folders.lnk
    -a--- 7/1/2007 10:47 PM 191 grid.png

    The output is sorted by the lenght property numerically - without
    conversions from strings or any such thing, because the shell knows
    that the lenght property of the object is a number.... This was a
    very simple example - but, hopefully you understand the point.

    PowerShell is a really powerfull tool - you can even writ gui programs
    in powershell. The whole, Windows doesn't have a real command line
    crap is pretty much a thing of the past.

    [void]
    [reflection.assembly]::LoadWithPartialName("System.Windows.Forms")
    $form = New-Object Windows.Forms.Form
    $form.Text = "A Windows Form"
    $button = new-object windows.forms.button
    $button.text = "Push Me!"
    $button.dock ="fill"
    $button.add_click({$form.close()})
    $form.controls.add($button)
    $form.add_shown({$form.activate()})
    $form.showdialog()

    > > Nowadays everyone just sees Windows gooey-fied stuff, and
    > > assumes that's the norm.

    >
    > And it can be crippling.
    >
    > GUIs have lots of uses, but it's amazing how much time I spend in the
    > console; it's just easier much of the time.


    I agree - for most adminstrative tasks, I actually find a simple
    command line or console application to be the best. At my last job -
    all of my dialer configuration tools were command line and console
    apps that I had written. They were just for me, and a couple of
    others I worked with, so I felt that a full blown UI was just non-
    sense

    Oh, and here's another tip for you.... Since I believe you have to
    work in VS.NET at times, and you are also a vim user:

    http://www.viemu.com/

    Works pretty well. I'm actually considering buying it - though, it
    disables a couple of my favorite key bindings (mostly ctrl-k-c and
    ctrl-k-u). It can be fixed, but I haven't got around to it yet

    --
    Tom Shelton


  10. Re: Windows is Easier

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Tom Shelton belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > You should pick up a book on Windows PowerShell. PowerShell is
    > awesome.


    Can I download, install, and run PowerShell on Win 2000?

    > The syntax has a vague resemblance to Perl, since it
    > actually started out as a variant of Perl.


    Why would I not just stick with Perl, and be able to run my scripts in
    other operating environments, then?

    > PS C:\Users\Tom\Documents> ls | ? {$_.Length -gt 100} | sort -des -p
    > length


    More Microsoft "innovation": ls and sort

    > PowerShell is a really powerfull tool - you can even writ gui programs
    > in powershell. The whole, Windows doesn't have a real command line
    > crap is pretty much a thing of the past.


    Actually, I'm more interesting in putting time into learning Python at
    the moment.

    > Oh, and here's another tip for you.... Since I believe you have to
    > work in VS.NET at times, and you are also a vim user:
    >
    > http://www.viemu.com/
    >
    > Works pretty well. I'm actually considering buying it - though, it
    > disables a couple of my favorite key bindings (mostly ctrl-k-c and
    > ctrl-k-u). It can be fixed, but I haven't got around to it yet


    Well, we still use an old version of VS. And I'd prefer to get the
    standard VIM "OLE" support working, rather than pay $70 per license.

    It would be nice to have a vi interface in Word, but I haven't run Word
    much since we started doing our detailed design in doxygen.

    Thanks for the heads up, Tom, even though my priority is stuff that can
    work on alternative platforms.

    Somehow, my Win 2000 install losts its profile yesterday. So I lost my
    links and mapped drives. And Microsoft updates have modify some system
    behaviors recently, so I'm not too happy with Windows these days.

    --
    Tux rox!

  11. Re: Windows is Easier

    After takin' a swig o' grog, cc belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > On Sep 18, 5:00 pm, Kelsey Bjarnason wrote:
    >> For various reasons, I need to use PHP to do some SNMP polling and dump
    >> the results in a MySQL database.
    >>
    >> No problem. Linux? Install (via the pointy-clicky-GUI-thingy) php5-cli,
    >> php5-snmp and php5-mysql. Write code, test code, code works. Hmm. Might
    >> need it to run off a Windows box, too.
    >>
    >> No prob, download the Windows PHP installer. Install PHP, plus the SNMP
    >> and MySQL extensions. All's well, right?
    >>
    >> Not quite. Identical code, but when run on the Windows side, it spews
    >> errors - cannot locate MIBs and the like. Ick.
    >>
    >> Assorted hunting around shows that the MIB data - which you need in order
    >> for this sort of thing to work - is stored not with the PHP install, nor
    >> with the , but in My Documents\php.
    >>
    >> Let's repeat that: for some reason, the PHP installer has put stuff into a
    >> _document_ folder. Which might make some degree of sense, I suppose, if
    >> it had _just_ put the MIB data there; instead it put the extensions there;
    >> there are some 45 DLLs in a directory under _My Documents_.
    >>
    >> Figuring out what the actual problem was - that the MIBs are stored
    >> separately - then locating them, putting them somewhere sane and figuring
    >> out how to get the PHP system to look for them there was, oh, a half hour
    >> or so faffing around on the net.
    >>
    >> All to do a job which three mouse clicks at install time accomplished in
    >> Linux.
    >>
    >> But let's remember, folks, Windows is easier, Windows is user friendly.
    >>
    >> No, this is not the fault of MS, nor even of Windows itself; it is,
    >> presumably, an issue of how the PHP installer works. It is, however, a
    >> handy refutation of the nonsense view than Windows is universally better,
    >> simpler, friendlier.

    >
    >


    Lost for words?

    --
    Tux rox!

  12. Re: Windows is Easier

    Linonut writes:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Tom Shelton belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> You should pick up a book on Windows PowerShell. PowerShell is
    >> awesome.

    >
    > Can I download, install, and run PowerShell on Win 2000?
    >
    >> The syntax has a vague resemblance to Perl, since it
    >> actually started out as a variant of Perl.

    >
    > Why would I not just stick with Perl, and be able to run my scripts in
    > other operating environments, then?
    >
    >> PS C:\Users\Tom\Documents> ls | ? {$_.Length -gt 100} | sort -des -p
    >> length

    >
    > More Microsoft "innovation": ls and sort


    This is the type of comment which reveals you to be the petty lowbrow
    that you are. You would prefer they reinvent names?

    Do YOU think Linux invented all these names? You are a fool.

  13. Re: Windows is Easier

    On Sep 19, 5:43 am, Linonut wrote:
    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Tom Shelton belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    > > You should pick up a book on Windows PowerShell. PowerShell is
    > > awesome.

    >
    > Can I download, install, and run PowerShell on Win 2000?
    >


    Sorry - don't think Win2K is supported.

    > > The syntax has a vague resemblance to Perl, since it
    > > actually started out as a variant of Perl.

    >
    > Why would I not just stick with Perl, and be able to run my scripts in
    > other operating environments, then?
    >


    Like i said only a vague resemblance. And, if that's what you want to
    do then that's ok. I just thought I'd throw it out there. It's simple
    to learn, and if you want a decent shell that's integrated into
    windows, then powershell is the answer.

    > > PS C:\Users\Tom\Documents> ls | ? {$_.Length -gt 100} | sort -des -p
    > > length

    >
    > More Microsoft "innovation": ls and sort
    >


    ls is an alias, sort is just the result of a syntactical
    convienience. Microsoft provides them so that people familiar with
    other shells can be immediately productive.... If you want the actual
    pure PowerShell version, then it would look something like:

    get-childitem | where-object {$_.Length -gt 100} | sort-object -
    descending -property length

    One of the goals of powershell was to provide "elastic" syntax. So,
    like most shells it allows extensive aliasing and short-cuts.

    > > PowerShell is a really powerfull tool - you can even writ gui programs
    > > in powershell. The whole, Windows doesn't have a real command line
    > > crap is pretty much a thing of the past.

    >
    > Actually, I'm more interesting in putting time into learning Python at
    > the moment.
    >


    Ok. That's fine - but, don't complain that Windows still has a crappy
    shell environment. MS provides a very nice one.

    > > Oh, and here's another tip for you.... Since I believe you have to
    > > work in VS.NET at times, and you are also a vim user:

    >
    > >http://www.viemu.com/

    >
    > > Works pretty well. I'm actually considering buying it - though, it
    > > disables a couple of my favorite key bindings (mostly ctrl-k-c and
    > > ctrl-k-u). It can be fixed, but I haven't got around to it yet

    >
    > Well, we still use an old version of VS. And I'd prefer to get the
    > standard VIM "OLE" support working, rather than pay $70 per license.
    >


    I would too - but, I've never once been able to get that working...
    Well, I did have it sort of work in VS6, but it kept crashing the ide
    - so, I had to disable it. This is the first time I've been able to
    get VIM support working in VS - and it's been rather nice.

    > It would be nice to have a vi interface in Word, but I haven't run Word
    > much since we started doing our detailed design in doxygen.
    >
    > Thanks for the heads up, Tom, even though my priority is stuff that can
    > work on alternative platforms.
    >
    > Somehow, my Win 2000 install losts its profile yesterday. So I lost my
    > links and mapped drives. And Microsoft updates have modify some system
    > behaviors recently, so I'm not too happy with Windows these days.


    Somehow, it doesn't suprise me.

    --
    Tom Shelton


  14. Re: Windows is Easier

    Tom Shelton wrote:

    >Ok. That's fine - but, don't complain that Windows still has a crappy
    >shell environment. MS provides a very nice one.


    If you're willing to buy the ****e known as Visduh...


  15. Re: Windows is Easier

    On Sep 19, 7:42 am, chrisv wrote:
    > Tom Shelton wrote:
    > >Ok. That's fine - but, don't complain that Windows still has a crappy
    > >shell environment. MS provides a very nice one.

    >
    > If you're willing to buy the ****e known as Visduh...


    1) Vista is actually pretty nice. I have been using it relatively
    problem free for a few months now.

    2) Powershell isn't just vista. It's available for XP, 2K3, Vista,
    and will be part of 2008.

    --
    Tom Shelton


  16. Re: Windows is Easier

    [snips]

    On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 00:57:05 +0000, cc wrote:

    > How is this a refutation of anything other than the ****ty software
    > you downloaded?


    Wonder what that would be. Can't be PHP, as that is particularly _good_
    software, even if its installer is a bit wonky.

  17. Re: Windows is Easier

    On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 03:30:53 +0000, Tim Smith wrote:

    > On 2007-09-19, DFS wrote:
    >> There's about 100% chance you screwed something up, or you're reading from

    >
    > Well, I'd say the first screwup was using PHP instead of Perl for this.
    > :-)


    You feel free to use Perl wherever you like. I use it when I _have_ to,
    and no more than that.

  18. Re: Windows is Easier

    Kelsey Bjarnason writes:

    > [snips]
    >
    > On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 00:57:05 +0000, cc wrote:
    >
    >> How is this a refutation of anything other than the ****ty software
    >> you downloaded?

    >
    > Wonder what that would be. Can't be PHP, as that is particularly _good_
    > software, even if its installer is a bit wonky.


    PHP is a mess.

    --
    You never go anywhere without your soul.

  19. Re: Windows is Easier

    On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 09:42:29 -0700, Kelsey Bjarnason wrote:

    > [snips]
    >
    > On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 00:57:05 +0000, cc wrote:
    >
    >> How is this a refutation of anything other than the ****ty software
    >> you downloaded?

    >
    > Wonder what that would be. Can't be PHP, as that is particularly _good_
    > software, even if its installer is a bit wonky.


    I guess that depends on your definition of good.

    PHP has had chronic security problems, and an attitude of not wanting to
    fix them. This was so bad their head security guy quit in disgust because
    nobody was serious about security.

    How can you complain about Microsoft and then call PHP "particularly
    _good_"?

  20. Re: Windows is Easier

    Verily I say unto thee, that The Ghost In The Machine spake thusly:

    > I'm not sure how Nautilus gets a borderless backdrop window, though.


    ESETROOT_PMAP_I?

    > The concept thereof I first saw on the Amiga


    It was a neat trick. The root window (screen) was still there
    underneath, but the contents were moved to a new window (the Workbench
    window). As such it was possible to exit Workbench by just clicking on
    the close gadget (also from the menu). Not that it was very useful, in
    fact I wonder why it was designed like that at all, and not just hard
    coded as a permanent backdrop on screen0.

    Amiga screens OTOH /were/ very useful. IIRC one could have an unlimited
    number of screens (limited only by hardware resources); each with a
    custom name, Arexx port, and relative position within the "layers".
    Thanks to the Copper, each screen could be a difference resolution &
    colour depth, which I believe was unique to Amiga hardware, and still is
    to this day (with the exception of workspaces on multiple monitors,
    which is not quite the same thing).

    > As for PHP -- an interesting distinction between the two systems, and
    > a reminder that porting occasionally runs into some oddball corner
    > cases.


    Getting software designed for GNU/Linux running on Windows, is like
    forcing a square peg into a round hole, and frankly I just don't see the
    point, when the OS those tools were designed to work on in the first
    place is so much better.

    > It might depend on what one considers "easy". I have no problem
    > writing strange one-time-only bash scripts, something along the lines
    > of
    >
    > $ find . -type f -mtime +7 | xargs gzip
    >
    > as opposed to
    >
    > click a directory
    > look through files
    > drag and drop desired files to compressor[*]
    > click another directory
    > look through files
    > drag and drop desired files to compressor
    > repeat ad nauseum until done
    >
    > Which is easier?


    It's been said many times that sometimes it just makes more sense to use
    the CLI, rather than mess around pointing and clicking on an infinite
    array of objects on the desktop. In that regard, GNU/Linux has the
    distinct advantage of real shells like Bash and real CLI tools like
    coreutils, etc.

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | "OOXML is a superb standard"
    | - GNU/Linux traitor, Miguel de Icaza.
    `----

    Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.22.1-41.fc7
    20:09:26 up 41 days, 19:04, 2 users, load average: 0.20, 0.17, 0.17

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