[Troll] Evangelism is War - Linux

This is a discussion on [Troll] Evangelism is War - Linux ; http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf Prophets, arm yourselves! -- Hence it comes about that all armed Prophets have been victorious, and all unarmed Prophets have been destroyed. -- Niccolo Machiavelli...

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  1. [Troll] Evangelism is War

    http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf

    Prophets, arm yourselves!

    --
    Hence it comes about that all armed Prophets have been victorious, and all
    unarmed Prophets have been destroyed.
    -- Niccolo Machiavelli

  2. Re: [Troll] Evangelism is War


    "Linonut" wrote in message
    news:3yVuj.4087$IG1.1264@bignews9.bellsouth.net...
    > http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf
    >
    > Prophets, arm yourselves!
    >

    Veeeeery interesting, eh?

    I just skimmed it, but it seems like pretty good stuff. It looks to me like
    Microsoft has the resolve to be "fustest with the mustest" as the old
    general said (IIRC). They vow to "Drive the success of Microsoft's
    platforms by creating a critical mass of third-party software applications
    and business solutions". That seems like an honest goal to me and hardly
    speaks of any need to suppress one's partners. Rather, it seems that
    Microsoft recognizes the value of having popular applications run under
    Windows and intends to aid developer efforts in tht regard. That has been
    my direct experience over the years as well.


  3. Re: [Troll] Evangelism is War

    Linonut wrote:

    > http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf
    >
    > Prophets, arm yourselves!


    Page 10: "We're Just Here to Help Developers" (circle and slash
    overlaid)

    Page 11: "We Are Here to Help MICROSOFT."

    Page 15:

    "We're Here to Help *Microsoft*!

    o *Microsoft* pays our wages
    o *Microsoft* provides our stock options
    o *Microsoft* pays our expenses
    o We're Here to Help *Microsoft*
    * By helping those developers...
    * ...That can best help *Microsoft*...
    * ...Achieve *Microsoft*'s objectives.
    o Did anyone miss the point, here?"

    Yes.

    http://www.thejemreport.com/mambo/content/view/257/1/

    After more than a decade with Windows, I know what to expect from
    it -- I expect that it will often break, crash, or otherwise not
    work. This is not a myth; show me someone who says that they have
    never had a major Windows malfunction and I'll show you someone
    who has never upgraded their hardware or software. I expect
    Windows to malfunction, so when it does, it's no surprise -- just
    more of the same crap from the same crappy operating system.

    GNU/Linux, on the other hand, I expect to work unless I use
    experimental software; if something goes wrong, more often than
    not, it was due to my own mistakes. In general, I think many
    people who are moving away from Windows are going to GNU/Linux
    with the expectation that it is a software utopia where computer
    problems don't exist. That environment will never happen on any
    architecture or platform, but GNU/Linux often comes close as long
    as you know your way around it. I see people on forums and
    mailing lists talk about how "Linux is not ready for the desktop"
    because they're embarrassed that they couldn't figure out
    something horrifyingly simple, like how to adjust the sound
    volume or add Macromedia Flash support to their Web browser --
    things that could be solved by reading the available
    documentation or searching Google. These same challenges exist on
    Windows too, but you expect Windows to malfunction, so it's
    acceptable. "Oh that kooky Windows! It's always messing up somehow!"
    Heh .... it doesn't get any better than this!

  4. Re: [Troll] Evangelism is War

    * amicus_curious peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > "Linonut" wrote in message
    > news:3yVuj.4087$IG1.1264@bignews9.bellsouth.net...
    >> http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf
    >>
    >> Prophets, arm yourselves!
    >>

    > Veeeeery interesting, eh?
    >
    > I just skimmed it, but it seems like pretty good stuff. It looks to me like
    > Microsoft has the resolve to be "fustest with the mustest" as the old
    > general said (IIRC). They vow to "Drive the success of Microsoft's
    > platforms by creating a critical mass of third-party software applications
    > and business solutions". That seems like an honest goal to me and hardly
    > speaks of any need to suppress one's partners. Rather, it seems that
    > Microsoft recognizes the value of having popular applications run under
    > Windows and intends to aid developer efforts in tht regard. That has been
    > my direct experience over the years as well.


    Of course you left out the dirty parts, Thomas Bowdler.

    --
    Men should be either treated generously or destroyed, because they take revenge
    for slight injuries - for heavy ones they cannot.
    -- Niccolo Machiavelli

  5. amicus_fuddie defines honesty .. :)

    On 20 Feb, 14:43, "amicus_curious" wrote:

    'It looks to me like Microsoft has the resolve to be "fustest with the
    mustest"', amicus_fuddie

    'They vow to "Drive the success of Microsoft's platforms by creating a
    critical mass of third-party software applications and business
    solutions"', ,amicus_fuddie

    'Use the press, the Internet, etc. to heighten the impression that the
    enemy is desperate, demoralized, defeated, depressed', MS technical
    evangelist

    "That seems like an honest goal to me and hardly speaks of any need to
    suppress one's partners", amicus_fuddie

    "I have mentioned before the "stacked panel". Panel discussions
    naturally favor alliances of relatively weak partners - our usual
    opposition", MS technical evangelist

    ""Independent" consultants should write columns and articles, give
    conference presentations and moderate stacked panels, all on our
    behalf", MS technical evangelist

    'Rather, it seems that Microsoft .. intends to aid developer efforts
    in tht regard', amicus_fuddie

    "We're here to help MICROSOFT .. By helping those developers ... That
    can best help MICROSOFT ... Achieve MICROSOFT's objectives .. Did
    anyone miss the point, here?", MS technical evangelist

    "Tier Z: ISVs that should never know that you exist, lest they send
    you email, call you, or otherwise waste your time", MS technical
    evangelist

    'That has been my direct experience over the years as well',
    amicus_fuddie

    Said a pathalogical liar who trolls a Linux group ..

    "Gathering intelligence on enemy activities is critical to the success
    of the Slog .. lurking on newsgroups, attending conferences, and
    (above all) talking to ISVs is essential to gathering this
    intelligence", MS technical evangelist

    is that you he's talking about fuddie ..

    'Ideally, use of the competing technology becomes associated with
    mental deficiency, as in, "he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter
    Bunny, and OS/2."', MS technical evangelist Jan 05, 2000

    "It was very very impostant in order to prove the credibility of this
    next-generation platform .. So I was super enthustiac that we shipped
    OS/2. We shipped it a quarter early, and that was exciting.
    ", Steveb

    --

    There isn't any **** we won't say or do to get people to buy our crap
    PRODUC~1 ...

  6. Re: [Troll] Evangelism is War


    "Linonut" wrote in message
    news:32_uj.77545$Mu4.50735@bignews7.bellsouth.net. ..
    >* amicus_curious peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> "Linonut" wrote in message
    >> news:3yVuj.4087$IG1.1264@bignews9.bellsouth.net...
    >>> http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf
    >>>
    >>> Prophets, arm yourselves!
    >>>

    >> Veeeeery interesting, eh?
    >>
    >> I just skimmed it, but it seems like pretty good stuff. It looks to me
    >> like
    >> Microsoft has the resolve to be "fustest with the mustest" as the old
    >> general said (IIRC). They vow to "Drive the success of Microsoft's
    >> platforms by creating a critical mass of third-party software
    >> applications
    >> and business solutions". That seems like an honest goal to me and hardly
    >> speaks of any need to suppress one's partners. Rather, it seems that
    >> Microsoft recognizes the value of having popular applications run under
    >> Windows and intends to aid developer efforts in tht regard. That has
    >> been
    >> my direct experience over the years as well.

    >
    > Of course you left out the dirty parts, Thomas Bowdler.
    >

    What "dirty parts" do you speak of? It seems to me that their strategy, in
    a nutshell, is to support their friends and also support any other enemy of
    their eneimies. That, to me, seems like a very logical thing to do. Of
    course if you are a Microsoft enemy, it is not a thing to give you a thrill.
    But that is just the nature of things.


  7. Re: amicus_fuddie defines honesty .. :)


    "Doug Mentohl" wrote in message
    news:201ffa82-2477-48ac-8ab1-a22ffa313356@h25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
    > On 20 Feb, 14:43, "amicus_curious" wrote:
    >
    > 'It looks to me like Microsoft has the resolve to be "fustest with the
    > mustest"', amicus_fuddie
    >
    > 'They vow to "Drive the success of Microsoft's platforms by creating a
    > critical mass of third-party software applications and business
    > solutions"', ,amicus_fuddie
    >
    > 'Use the press, the Internet, etc. to heighten the impression that the
    > enemy is desperate, demoralized, defeated, depressed', MS technical
    > evangelist
    >

    War is hell, eh? Look at Shestociwiz and his posts. Is he not trying the
    same thing, albeit not very well?

    > "That seems like an honest goal to me and hardly speaks of any need to
    > suppress one's partners", amicus_fuddie
    >
    > "I have mentioned before the "stacked panel". Panel discussions
    > naturally favor alliances of relatively weak partners - our usual
    > opposition", MS technical evangelist
    >

    Someone is always going to be better than the rest. Live with it.

    > ""Independent" consultants should write columns and articles, give
    > conference presentations and moderate stacked panels, all on our
    > behalf", MS technical evangelist
    >

    Those who love Microsoft are encouraged to tell the world, just like the
    Linux fans are.

    > 'Rather, it seems that Microsoft .. intends to aid developer efforts
    > in tht regard', amicus_fuddie
    >
    > "We're here to help MICROSOFT .. By helping those developers ... That
    > can best help MICROSOFT ... Achieve MICROSOFT's objectives .. Did
    > anyone miss the point, here?", MS technical evangelist
    >

    If you're on the team, you have to play for the team, eh? That's the
    American way. Just like the Gipper said.

    > "Tier Z: ISVs that should never know that you exist, lest they send
    > you email, call you, or otherwise waste your time", MS technical
    > evangelist
    >

    Pure Sales 101 and not so hard to understand. There are the chronic grumps
    who complain about everything, witness the posters in the Linux tech groups
    bashing one anothers distro in regard to some pedantic point or other.
    Realistically, no one wants them as a customer and many skilled sales and
    marketing folk find ways to send these malcontents off to do business with
    the competition. I am sure you have been treated that way in the past.

    > 'That has been my direct experience over the years as well',
    > amicus_fuddie
    >
    > Said a pathalogical liar who trolls a Linux group ..
    >

    I'm just here to show you what a mistake you are making.

    > "Gathering intelligence on enemy activities is critical to the success
    > of the Slog .. lurking on newsgroups, attending conferences, and
    > (above all) talking to ISVs is essential to gathering this
    > intelligence", MS technical evangelist
    >
    > is that you he's talking about fuddie ..
    >

    Not at all. I'm merely an unabashed fan.

    > 'Ideally, use of the competing technology becomes associated with
    > mental deficiency, as in, "he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter
    > Bunny, and OS/2."', MS technical evangelist Jan 05, 2000
    >

    That's OS-who? IIRC.



  8. Re: amicus_fuddie defines honesty .. :)

    amicus_curious wrote:

    > War is hell, eh? ¬*Look at Shestociwiz and his posts. ¬*Is he not trying the
    > same thing, albeit not very well?


    War? Hell WinTroll, aren't you telling us all the time how Linux doesn't
    have a chance, that its sales are almost non-existent, how the OpenSource
    movement and Linux is a joke? So what exactly are you and Micro$haft going
    to *war* against? And you spend hours and hours every week spinning and
    twisting against this supposed non-threat. So, are you just stupid or a
    serial liar?

    --
    RonB
    "There's a story there...somewhere"

  9. Re: amicus_fuddie defines honesty .. :)


    "RonB" wrote in message
    news:dR%uj.15$x72.0@newsfe05.lga...
    > amicus_curious wrote:
    >
    >> War is hell, eh? Look at Shestociwiz and his posts. Is he not trying the
    >> same thing, albeit not very well?

    >
    > War? Hell WinTroll, aren't you telling us all the time how Linux doesn't
    > have a chance, that its sales are almost non-existent, how the OpenSource
    > movement and Linux is a joke? So what exactly are you and Micro$haft going
    > to *war* against? And you spend hours and hours every week spinning and
    > twisting against this supposed non-threat. So, are you just stupid or a
    > serial liar?
    >

    Well, "war" is a little dramatic when applied to a weakling like Linux, I
    will admit. Remember, when that piece was written the enemy was Oracle's
    database, Novell's Netware OS, and IBM's OS/2, which were real products
    competing with Microsoft in its main space. Linux was still waiting for
    help from those guys.

    I think that Microsoft understands that it has to reinvent itself almost
    everyday in order to continue to be of superior service to its ever-growing
    list of customers.


  10. Re: amicus_fuddie defines honesty .. :)

    amicus_curious wrote:

    > Well, "war" is a little dramatic when applied to a weakling like Linux, I
    > will admit. ¬*Remember, when that piece was written the enemy was Oracle's
    > database, Novell's Netware OS, and IBM's OS/2, which were real products
    > competing with Microsoft in its main space. ¬*Linux was still waiting for
    > help from those guys.
    >
    > I think that Microsoft understands that it has to reinvent itself almost
    > everyday in order to continue to be of superior service to its
    > ever-growing list of customers.


    All of which has *what* to do with your 24/7 FUDing on this newsgroup?

    --
    RonB
    "There's a story there...somewhere"

  11. Re: amicus_fuddie defines honesty .. :)

    On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:44:21 -0600, RonB wrote:

    > amicus_curious wrote:
    >
    >> Well, "war" is a little dramatic when applied to a weakling like Linux, I
    >> will admit. *Remember, when that piece was written the enemy was Oracle's
    >> database, Novell's Netware OS, and IBM's OS/2, which were real products
    >> competing with Microsoft in its main space. *Linux was still waiting for
    >> help from those guys.
    >>
    >> I think that Microsoft understands that it has to reinvent itself almost
    >> everyday in order to continue to be of superior service to its
    >> ever-growing list of customers.

    >
    > All of which has *what* to do with your 24/7 FUDing on this newsgroup?


    You'll have to ask Roy Schestowitz that one:

    Post Activity

    Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
    2004 44 99 78
    2005 222 142 179 254 116 305 398 664 579 547 457 367
    2006 373 950 1654 631 1923 1868 1855 2041 2166 1470 1715 1793
    2007 2159 1953 2137 1871 1878 1482 1707 1497 1351 1064 1073
    1074
    2008 1243 93

    Now add in his various hate blogs, Netscape, Digg and the other 15 places
    he SPAMS his **** to and you figure out who the paid SPAMMER is....

    Hint: It's Roy Schestowtiz.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  12. Re: [Troll] Evangelism is War

    Linonut wrote:
    > http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf
    >
    > Prophets, arm yourselves!


    Don't you have to lick Roy's ass?

  13. Re: [Troll] Evangelism is War

    * amicus_curious peremptorily fired off this memo:

    >> Of course you left out the dirty parts, Thomas Bowdler.
    >>

    > What "dirty parts" do you speak of? It seems to me that their strategy, in
    > a nutshell, is to support their friends and also support any other enemy of
    > their eneimies. That, to me, seems like a very logical thing to do. Of
    > course if you are a Microsoft enemy, it is not a thing to give you a thrill.
    > But that is just the nature of things.


    Perhaps. And it is morally bankrupt.

    --
    Never was anything great achieved without danger.
    -- Niccolo Machiavelli

  14. Re: amicus_fuddie defines honesty .. :)

    * RonB peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > amicus_curious wrote:
    >
    >> Well, "war" is a little dramatic when applied to a weakling like Linux, I
    >> will admit. *Remember, when that piece was written the enemy was Oracle's
    >> database, Novell's Netware OS, and IBM's OS/2, which were real products
    >> competing with Microsoft in its main space. *Linux was still waiting for
    >> help from those guys.
    >>
    >> I think that Microsoft understands that it has to reinvent itself almost
    >> everyday in order to continue to be of superior service to its
    >> ever-growing list of customers.

    >
    > All of which has *what* to do with your 24/7 FUDing on this newsgroup?


    Amicus prefers to remain, shall we say, at the risk of punning,
    "allusive"?

    It's pretty easy to explain, really.

    Although Microshills can wave their hands at the small (1%) "market
    share" of Linux in consumer land, they have a much bigger problem trying
    to wave away the great prevalence of GNU/Linux solutions in embedded
    devices, servers, clusters, academia and science, and engineering. It's
    even starting to penetrate into the back-office.

    And then you have Google pushing solutions that are increasingly
    cross-platform, after having already leverage Linux in the server farm.

    The guys at work who deal with Linux take this knowledge home, and it
    will eventually permeate into consumer land, especially on the low-end
    sub-notebooks that are coming out.

    Amicus's job is to poo-poo and minimize this erosion by fronting. One
    tack he takes is pushing the rich-man, already-entrenched theme of
    Microsoft, followed by alluding to the futility of combatting such an
    entity.

    Bulllllllllllllllllllllllll
    shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhit!

    --
    The wise man does at once what the fool does finally.
    -- Niccolo Machiavelli

  15. Re: amicus_fuddie defines honesty .. :)


    "RonB" wrote in message
    news:wu6vj.52$fG2.42@newsfe06.lga...
    > amicus_curious wrote:
    >
    >> Well, "war" is a little dramatic when applied to a weakling like Linux, I
    >> will admit. Remember, when that piece was written the enemy was Oracle's
    >> database, Novell's Netware OS, and IBM's OS/2, which were real products
    >> competing with Microsoft in its main space. Linux was still waiting for
    >> help from those guys.
    >>
    >> I think that Microsoft understands that it has to reinvent itself almost
    >> everyday in order to continue to be of superior service to its
    >> ever-growing list of customers.

    >
    > All of which has *what* to do with your 24/7 FUDing on this newsgroup?
    >

    You asked the question, i.e.:

    > War? Hell WinTroll, aren't you telling us all the time how Linux doesn't
    > have a chance, that its sales are almost non-existent, how the OpenSource
    > movement and Linux is a joke? So what exactly are you and Micro$haft going
    > to *war* against?


    And I gave you an answer. Are you daft?


  16. Re: amicus_fuddie defines honesty .. :)

    * amicus_curious peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > "Linonut" wrote in message
    >
    >> Although Microshills can wave their hands at the small (1%) "market
    >> share" of Linux in consumer land, they have a much bigger problem trying
    >> to wave away the great prevalence of GNU/Linux solutions in embedded
    >> devices, servers, clusters, academia and science, and engineering. It's
    >> even starting to penetrate into the back-office.
    >>

    > Well, you cover an awful lot of territory there and it is difficult to
    > adequately respond in any simple post. Plus, you mix apples and oranges,
    > confusing apparatus with functional use. However, I will try to answer
    > somewhat.
    >
    >
    >
    >>

    > Do you think that it is useful to struggle so? I don't. There is nothing
    > to be gained that is worth the struggle.


    There you go with the futility of it all, again.

    > It would be far better for those
    > with enough talent to invent new things to simply apply themselves to
    > Windows add-ons. Consider that Firefox, if you think it to be a superior
    > browser, is used far more extensively on Windows than on Linux. I don't
    > think that it is such a wonderful thing, but you should get the idea.


    I do. You're absolutely clueless about Free software.

    --
    Whether it's Google or Apple or free software, we've got some fantastic
    competitors and it keeps us on our toes.
    -- Bill Gates

  17. Re: amicus_fuddie defines honesty .. :)

    Linonut wrote:

    >You're absolutely clueless about Free software.


    Rat claims to think that there should be only a single "best vendor"
    of all products. As if it's possible for one vendor tho have the
    optimal product for all users.

    --
    "MS market share is proof of it's superior quality and/or value to
    perform what people need it to do." - "True Linux Advocate" Hadron
    Quark


  18. Re: amicus_fuddie defines honesty .. :)

    chrisv wrote:

    > Linonut wrote:
    >
    >>You're absolutely clueless about Free software.

    >
    > Rat claims to think that there should be only a single "best vendor"
    > of all products. As if it's possible for one vendor tho have the
    > optimal product for all users.
    >


    He should certainly contact the "OSS culling committee" chairman Hadron
    Quark about that. They seem to share one or two ideas
    --
    Who the **** is General Failure, and why is he reading my harddisk?


  19. Re: amicus_fuddie defines honesty .. :)


    "Linonut" wrote in message
    news:nokvj.93253$_m.7555@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
    >* amicus_curious peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> "Linonut" wrote in message
    >>
    >>> Although Microshills can wave their hands at the small (1%) "market
    >>> share" of Linux in consumer land, they have a much bigger problem trying
    >>> to wave away the great prevalence of GNU/Linux solutions in embedded
    >>> devices, servers, clusters, academia and science, and engineering. It's
    >>> even starting to penetrate into the back-office.
    >>>

    >> Well, you cover an awful lot of territory there and it is difficult to
    >> adequately respond in any simple post. Plus, you mix apples and oranges,
    >> confusing apparatus with functional use. However, I will try to answer
    >> somewhat.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>

    >> Do you think that it is useful to struggle so? I don't. There is
    >> nothing
    >> to be gained that is worth the struggle.

    >
    > There you go with the futility of it all, again.
    >

    And there you go again with a non-answer. Do you think it useful or not?

    >> It would be far better for those
    >> with enough talent to invent new things to simply apply themselves to
    >> Windows add-ons. Consider that Firefox, if you think it to be a superior
    >> browser, is used far more extensively on Windows than on Linux. I don't
    >> think that it is such a wonderful thing, but you should get the idea.

    >
    > I do. You're absolutely clueless about Free software.
    >

    Perhaps, but what gets used is what people get some benefit from using. So
    far, that has not been the case with desktop Linux and any application
    dependent on it. If you want to do something wonderful for the teeming
    masses, do it on Windows and many more will be served than if you do not.


  20. Re: amicus_fuddie defines honesty .. :)

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:18:42 +0100,
    Hadron wrote:
    > Peter Köhlmann writes:
    >
    >> chrisv wrote:
    >>
    >>> Linonut wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>You're absolutely clueless about Free software.
    >>>
    >>> Rat claims to think that there should be only a single "best vendor"
    >>> of all products. As if it's possible for one vendor tho have the
    >>> optimal product for all users.
    >>>

    >>
    >> He should certainly contact the "OSS culling committee" chairman Hadron
    >> Quark about that. They seem to share one or two ideas

    >
    > I don't believe a German should every talk about culling.



    You'd just rather sling insults that discuss the point in contention. We
    understand that already.


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    --
    Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
    "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord,
    make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it."
    -Voltaire

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