[News] Novell Again Claimed in "Alliance" with Ballmer's Mafia - Linux

This is a discussion on [News] Novell Again Claimed in "Alliance" with Ballmer's Mafia - Linux ; One big push for interoperability required ,----[ Quote ] | In the case of Novell-Microsoft alliance, the situation is one of making two | platforms work together. `---- http://www.expresscomputeronline.com...source01.shtml Well, then why doesn't Microsoft support ODF? It's all for Microsoft. ...

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Thread: [News] Novell Again Claimed in "Alliance" with Ballmer's Mafia

  1. [News] Novell Again Claimed in "Alliance" with Ballmer's Mafia

    One big push for interoperability required

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | In the case of Novell-Microsoft alliance, the situation is one of making two
    | platforms work together.
    `----

    http://www.expresscomputeronline.com...source01.shtml

    Well, then why doesn't Microsoft support ODF? It's all for Microsoft. Novell is
    is the vassal. And then there's the talk about harmonising...

    OOXML-ODF: The Harmonization Hope Chest

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | This post has four points:
    |
    | 1. Translatability Informs Harmonization
    | Difficulty of translation is a rough indicator of the degree to which
    | reconciliation of the formats is difficult.
    |
    | 2. Models Limit Translation/Harmonization
    | There is no assurance that either format is universal enough, in the
    | sense that it can faithfully express all documents of the other format.
    |
    | 3. We Must Know the Differences
    | We need to know the severity of the model disparities and
    | individual-feature differences before concluding how much useful
    | harmonization is possible.
    |
    | 4. The Reality in the Punchbowl
    |
    | [...]
    `----

    http://orcmid.com/blog/2008/02/ooxml...hope-chest.asp


    Related:

    Microsoft's Lotus FUD Tools

    ,----[ Quote
    | It's Lotusphere in Orlando, Fla,, and Microsoft just can't resist playing
    | spoiler to IBM announcements—software-as-a-service offerings for SMBs, new
    | forthcoming Domino and Notes features, and software collaboration agreement
    | with SAP. Â* Â*
    `----

    http://www.microsoft-watch.com/conte...129TX1K0000535

  2. Re: [News] Novell Again Claimed in "Alliance" with Ballmer's Mafia

    Roy Schestowitz espoused:
    > One big push for interoperability required
    >
    > ,----[ Quote ]
    >| In the case of Novell-Microsoft alliance, the situation is one of making two
    >| platforms work together.
    > `----
    >
    > http://www.expresscomputeronline.com...source01.shtml
    >
    > Well, then why doesn't Microsoft support ODF? It's all for Microsoft. Novell is
    > is the vassal. And then there's the talk about harmonising...


    If Microsoft cared about interop, they'd abandon "embrace and extend".
    The amusing thing about OOXML and ODF is that it drives a coach with 6
    horses right through the E&E strategy, in that they don't support ODF in
    the first place, so they need to create a new "standard", OOXML, for the
    sole and singular purpose of embracing and extending it...


    --
    | Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
    | Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
    | Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
    | My (new) blog: http://www.thereisnomagic.org |

  3. Re: [News] Novell Again Claimed in "Alliance" with Ballmer's Mafia

    ____/ Mark Kent on Monday 11 February 2008 16:36 : \____

    > Roy Schestowitz espoused:
    >> One big push for interoperability required
    >>
    >> ,----[ Quote ]
    >>| In the case of Novell-Microsoft alliance, the situation is one of making
    >>| two platforms work together.
    >> `----
    >>
    >> http://www.expresscomputeronline.com...source01.shtml
    >>
    >> Well, then why doesn't Microsoft support ODF? It's all for Microsoft. Novell
    >> is is the vassal. And then there's the talk about harmonising...

    >
    > If Microsoft cared about interop, they'd abandon "embrace and extend".
    > The amusing thing about OOXML and ODF is that it drives a coach with 6
    > horses right through the E&E strategy, in that they don't support ODF in
    > the first place, so they need to create a new "standard", OOXML, for the
    > sole and singular purpose of embracing and extending it...


    They were invited to join efforts on developing ODF and they declined. Later
    on, it appears as though they tried to rewrite that bit of history. They have
    quite a propaganda machine (e.g. 'analysts', bribed journalists that they
    invited over to Redmond), so disinformation would be easy for them to spread.

    Recently, Microsoft spewed out a damaging remark about its dependence on
    _CONTROLLING THE STANDARD_ for maintaining its business. Like we didn't know
    this already... well, it's nice hearing it from the horse's mouth even in 2008
    when the EU has 3 simultaneous antitrust probes against the Vole.

    --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | "Did anyone see my lost carrier?"
    http://Schestowitz.com | Open Prospects | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    Tasks: 122 total, 1 running, 121 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie
    http://iuron.com - knowledge engine, not a search engine

  4. Re: [News] Novell Again Claimed in "Alliance" with Ballmer's Mafia

    Roy Schestowitz espoused:
    > ____/ Mark Kent on Monday 11 February 2008 16:36 : \____
    >
    >> Roy Schestowitz espoused:
    >>> One big push for interoperability required
    >>>
    >>> ,----[ Quote ]
    >>>| In the case of Novell-Microsoft alliance, the situation is one of making
    >>>| two platforms work together.
    >>> `----
    >>>
    >>> http://www.expresscomputeronline.com...source01.shtml
    >>>
    >>> Well, then why doesn't Microsoft support ODF? It's all for Microsoft. Novell
    >>> is is the vassal. And then there's the talk about harmonising...

    >>
    >> If Microsoft cared about interop, they'd abandon "embrace and extend".
    >> The amusing thing about OOXML and ODF is that it drives a coach with 6
    >> horses right through the E&E strategy, in that they don't support ODF in
    >> the first place, so they need to create a new "standard", OOXML, for the
    >> sole and singular purpose of embracing and extending it...

    >
    > They were invited to join efforts on developing ODF and they declined. Later
    > on, it appears as though they tried to rewrite that bit of history. They have
    > quite a propaganda machine (e.g. 'analysts', bribed journalists that they
    > invited over to Redmond), so disinformation would be easy for them to spread.


    We see one of the mouthpieces of that machine here. I can't recall the
    number of times that Weisgerber/Quark/Funkenbusch/Timmy etc., have
    denied the actions against DRDOS, for example, in spite of all the
    evidence. Of course, the court papers which have emerged in the last
    few years have made it increasingly difficult for Microsoft's
    shilcosystem to re-write history in this way. I don't think many people
    are unaware of Microsoft's illegal actions against DRDOS now.

    >
    > Recently, Microsoft spewed out a damaging remark about its dependence on
    > _CONTROLLING THE STANDARD_ for maintaining its business. Like we didn't know
    > this already... well, it's nice hearing it from the horse's mouth even in 2008
    > when the EU has 3 simultaneous antitrust probes against the Vole.
    >


    .... and those are still probably nowhere near enough. Still, if
    Microsoft continue to commit suicide by such as acquiring Yahoo, then it
    won't matter soon.

    --
    | Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
    | Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
    | Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
    | My (new) blog: http://www.thereisnomagic.org |

  5. Re: [News] Novell Again Claimed in "Alliance" with Ballmer's Mafia

    On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 23:57:48 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:

    >>> Well, then why doesn't Microsoft support ODF? It's all for Microsoft. Novell
    >>> is is the vassal. And then there's the talk about harmonising...


    Microsoft does support ODF. Apart from their read-only plug-in, Microsoft
    actively worked with Sun to make Sun's ODF plug-in work correctly in Office
    2007 SP1 and earlier versions (You may recall Sun spreading FUD that
    Microsoft was purposefully breaking their ODF plug-in, but when Microsoft
    helped them to get things working they never retracted it).

    Microsoft won't fully support ODF because, quite frankly, it was impossible
    for them to adequately do so, due in large part to the incompleteness of
    ODF (Spreadsheet formulas, Accessibilty, not to mention all the features of
    Office that ODF can't contain).

    > They were invited to join efforts on developing ODF and they declined.


    This is the big lie. Gary Edwards has said quite frankly that Sun, who was
    in control of ODF from day 1 wanted nothing to do with Office compatibility
    and was hostile towards any suggestion that might make ODF more office
    compatible.

    Read: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dghfk5w9_43f2cmkj

    Here's some quotes:

    "At any time since the founding of the OASIS ODF TC in 2002, we could have
    slammed the door shut on MS OOXML (OfficeOpenXML) simply by adding the
    interoperability eXtensions-enhancements to existing eXtensions needed to
    perfect compatibility with existing MS documents and interoperability with
    existing MS applications and processes. There are only six very simple iX
    enhancements needed for ODF to establish perfect interoperability with MS
    documents, applications and processes."

    "Sun has fought every compatibility-interoperability effort that includes
    MS documents, apps, and processes since that first OASIS ODF TC meeting,
    December 14th, 2002."

    Also

    "While no one wants to admit this, the truth is that Sun dominates and
    controls the OASIS ODF Technical Committee. And if you oppose them the
    consequences are serious, as the OpenDocument Foundation recently found
    out. Worse, there is a four and a half year record of Sun opposing or
    undermining efforts to enhance compatibility and interop."

    And even more damning.

    "And then there is the insane insistence by Sun that ODF be limited to only
    those features supported and implemented by OpenOffice."

    Now, I know Gary Edwards is all discredited because he attacked ODF, but
    that attack was the result of years of Sun of fighting them at every move.

    In fact, the OpenDocument Foundations being forcibly thrown out of OASIS is
    defacto evidence that disagreement with Sun on interoperability is not
    tolerated.

  6. fuddie: ODF is incompletene ..

    "Microsoft won't fully support ODF .. due in large part to the
    incompleteness of ODF .."

    Why don't MICROS~1 add the incomplete bits, it is after all a completely
    OPEN STANDARD, that anyone can contribute to.

    --

    yea, it can walk but it don't sing and dance ..

  7. Re: [News] Novell Again Claimed in "Alliance" with Ballmer's Mafia

    * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > This is the big lie. Gary Edwards has said quite frankly that Sun, who was
    > in control of ODF from day 1 wanted nothing to do with Office compatibility
    > and was hostile towards any suggestion that might make ODF more office
    > compatible.


    Thanks for that, Erik. It makes me feel better about Sun's sanity and
    perspicacity.

    The whole point of ODF is to be open, /not/ to support the peculiarities
    of a particular vendor format.

    > Read: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dghfk5w9_43f2cmkj
    >
    > Here's some quotes:
    >
    > Now, I know Gary Edwards is all discredited because he attacked ODF, but
    > that attack was the result of years of Sun of fighting them at every move.


    You left out this:

    I remember well the long walk Mr. Schwartz took, leaving the
    auditorium with two body guards on each side, as he made the mistake
    of choosing the tee shirt gauntlet as his exit path. It was one long
    walk. Not once did he make eye contact with the hundreds of glaring,
    seething with anger, penetrating stares that never wavered. Even
    after he passed by. It was so chilling that even the cheering lawyers
    and indemnification nazis saw fit to quietly melt into a silence that
    hung like an explosive gas, a cloud of vengeance waiting for someone
    or something to jump up and ignite it all.

    How much of this article is rant, how much is opinion, and how much is
    factual? Screaming for "high fidelity interoperability"? The author
    is, that is clear.

    And why the hell does he keep spelling it "eXtensions?"

    --
    A wise ruler ought never to keep faith when by doing so it would be against his
    interests.
    -- Niccolo Machiavelli

  8. Re: [News] Novell Again Claimed in "Alliance" with Ballmer's Mafia

    In article <12ksj.98414$L%6.74485@bignews3.bellsouth.net>,
    Linonut wrote:
    > * Erik Funkenbusch peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    > > This is the big lie. Gary Edwards has said quite frankly that Sun, who was
    > > in control of ODF from day 1 wanted nothing to do with Office compatibility
    > > and was hostile towards any suggestion that might make ODF more office
    > > compatible.

    >
    > Thanks for that, Erik. It makes me feel better about Sun's sanity and
    > perspicacity.
    >
    > The whole point of ODF is to be open, /not/ to support the peculiarities
    > of a particular vendor format.


    So let's see. Instead of looking just at StarOffice and saying "let's
    make a format that exactly covers what this needs, no more, no less",
    they could have looked at StarOffice, WordPerfect, Office, and maybe a
    couple of others, and, with just a few simple changes, made ODF a format
    that works for all of them, and you think it is *good* that they instead
    choose to make ODF not suitable for the vast majority of existing
    documents, thus guaranteeing that there would be at least two formats
    people would have to support?


    --
    --Tim Smith

  9. Re: fuddie: ODF is incompletene ..

    Doug Mentohl espoused:
    > "Microsoft won't fully support ODF .. due in large part to the
    > incompleteness of ODF .."
    >
    > Why don't MICROS~1 add the incomplete bits, it is after all a completely
    > OPEN STANDARD, that anyone can contribute to.
    >


    Microsoft's arguments (and I include those of Timmy,Erik,Quark etc.
    here) are so logically inconsistent that it's breathtaking. But,
    they're paid shills, so we can't really expect anything else.

    --
    | Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
    | Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
    | Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
    | My (new) blog: http://www.thereisnomagic.org |

  10. Re: [News] Novell Again Claimed in "Alliance" with Ballmer's Mafia

    * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > In article <12ksj.98414$L%6.74485@bignews3.bellsouth.net>,
    > Linonut wrote:
    >>
    >> The whole point of ODF is to be open, /not/ to support the peculiarities
    >> of a particular vendor format.

    >
    > So let's see. Instead of looking just at StarOffice and saying "let's
    > make a format that exactly covers what this needs, no more, no less",
    > they could have looked at StarOffice, WordPerfect, Office, and maybe a
    > couple of others, and, with just a few simple changes, made ODF a format
    > that works for all of them, and you think it is *good* that they instead
    > choose to make ODF not suitable for the vast majority of existing
    > documents, thus guaranteeing that there would be at least two formats
    > people would have to support?


    Of course. Let the vendors of those products figure out how to convert
    their documents to ODF.

    Listen up, Tim. The point is not to perpetuate vendor-specific formats.
    The point is to go forward with an open format.

    The vendor-specific formats will stick around as long as the vendors
    keep their software up to date with the meandering path of the Good Ship
    Microsoft, Destination unknown.

    See the sig.

    --
    I'm not interested in preserving the status quo; I want to overthrow it.
    -- Niccolo Machiavelli

  11. Re: fuddie: ODF is incompletene ..

    On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:00:42 +0000, Mark Kent wrote:


    > Microsoft's arguments (and I include those of Timmy,Erik,Quark etc.
    > here) are so logically inconsistent that it's breathtaking. But,
    > they're paid shills, so we can't really expect anything else.


    Schestowitz the spam king is the only paid shill in this group.
    Although I am starting to wonder about you, Homer and Linonut (since he
    went skitz) as well.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  12. Re: fuddie: ODF is incompletene ..

    On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:52:17 +0000, Doug Mentohl wrote:

    > "Microsoft won't fully support ODF .. due in large part to the
    > incompleteness of ODF .."
    >
    > Why don't MICROS~1 add the incomplete bits, it is after all a completely
    > OPEN STANDARD, that anyone can contribute to.


    No, it's not. Sun controls the standard, because they have the most
    members on the OASIS committee.

    And besides, if Microsoft tried to "add" anything to the standard, it would
    take all of 2 microseconds for people to start accusing them of coopting
    it.

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