What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth;Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales - Linux

This is a discussion on What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth;Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales - Linux ; On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:08:29 -0500, Moshe Goldfarb wrote: > On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:47:05 -0700, Snit wrote: > >> "Hadron" stated in post >> fnd3jj$or8$2@registered.motzarella.org on 1/25/08 9:43 AM: >> >>> Moshe Goldfarb writes: >>> >>>> On ...

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Thread: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth;Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

  1. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:08:29 -0500, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:

    > On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:47:05 -0700, Snit wrote:
    >
    >> "Hadron" stated in post
    >> fnd3jj$or8$2@registered.motzarella.org on 1/25/08 9:43 AM:
    >>
    >>> Moshe Goldfarb writes:
    >>>
    >>>> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 04:34:43 -0800 (PST), raylopez99 wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth and Includes a Sunny Forecast
    >>>>> New York Times - 9 hours ago
    >>>>> By STEVE LOHR Microsoft reported quarterly sales and profit gains that
    >>>>> surpassed Wall Street's expectations and delivered an optimistic
    >>>>> outlook Thursday, suggesting that a weakening economy would not slow
    >>>>> it down.
    >>>>> Microsoft Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales Washington Post
    >>>>
    >>>> Roy seems to have missed this one in his daily news splorge.
    >>>
    >>> I find this depressing.
    >>>
    >>> Vista is a heap of **** IMO. XP is an excellent home OS when properly
    >>> secured.
    >>>
    >>> 2007 really could have been the year of Linux - but I am afraid the
    >>> zealots and the total confusion regarding the GPL is ham stringing
    >>> progress. Now Vista is cleaning up its act and its pretty much game over
    >>> for Linux. Not necessarily of OSS, but Linux as a desktop OS is pretty
    >>> much doomed it would appear. Too little too late. This pains me. I have
    >>> invested a lot of time and effort in getting used to it. I actually did
    >>> think 2007 would see a HUGE linux uptake. It simply has not
    >>> happened. People are too much in their comfort zone with MS. Whether
    >>> herd mentality or whatever irrelevant. It is a fact.
    >>>
    >>> MS increasing profits is not good for the most of us.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> Apple is doing well... so why can't Linux?

    >
    > Applications.


    Linux has plenty.

    > Help systems.


    I'll give you this one, to some extent. But distros like Ubuntu have a
    great community and documentation, so it isn't all bad.

    > One stop shopping.


    Pre-loads would help.

    > Integration with personal multimedia.


    Linux has it.

    > A total lack of a geek like
    > community, that has in recent years turned from just plain strange and
    > geeky to nasty and paranoid.


    Lying bull****. You were doing well up to this point, flatty, but now
    you're just reverting to your usual spiteful self.

    --
    Kier


  2. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    Kier writes:

    > On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:43:30 +0100, Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> Moshe Goldfarb writes:
    >>
    >>> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 04:34:43 -0800 (PST), raylopez99 wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth and Includes a Sunny Forecast
    >>>> New York Times - 9 hours ago
    >>>> By STEVE LOHR Microsoft reported quarterly sales and profit gains that
    >>>> surpassed Wall Street's expectations and delivered an optimistic
    >>>> outlook Thursday, suggesting that a weakening economy would not slow
    >>>> it down.
    >>>> Microsoft Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales Washington Post
    >>>
    >>> Roy seems to have missed this one in his daily news splorge.

    >>
    >> I find this depressing.
    >>
    >> Vista is a heap of **** IMO. XP is an excellent home OS when properly
    >> secured.
    >>
    >> 2007 really could have been the year of Linux - but I am afraid the
    >> zealots and the total confusion regarding the GPL is ham stringing
    >> progress. Now Vista is cleaning up its act and its pretty much game over
    >> for Linux. Not necessarily of OSS, but Linux as a desktop OS is pretty
    >> much doomed it would appear. Too little too late. This pains me. I have
    >> invested a lot of time and effort in getting used to it. I actually did
    >> think 2007 would see a HUGE linux uptake. It simply has not
    >> happened. People are too much in their comfort zone with MS. Whether
    >> herd mentality or whatever irrelevant. It is a fact.
    >>

    >
    > Exactly how has your time and effort in learning Linux been 'wasted', if
    > you are satisfied with it as OS and want to use it? What MS does is
    > irrelevant to that, or should be.


    Because I am a professional programmer. And I was hoping to be at the
    forefront of the Linux growth. I was making do with certain substandard
    stuff in the anticipation that it would get better - which, in most
    cases, it has done I must admit.

  3. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 07:43:30 +0100, Hadron wrote:

    > Tim Smith writes:
    >
    >> In article ,
    >> Hadron wrote:
    >>> 2007 really could have been the year of Linux - but I am afraid the
    >>> zealots and the total confusion regarding the GPL is ham stringing
    >>> progress.

    >>
    >> Indeed. If a company decides to offer a Linux box, there is widespread
    >> initial cheering, then the zealots start finding fault.
    >>
    >> The company picked the wrong distribution. The company isn't offering
    >> enough distributions. The company said "Ubuntu" on a web page when they
    >> should have said "Linux". The company said "Linux" when they should
    >> have said "GNU/Linux". The Linux product page is too hard to find. The
    >> price difference between the Linux box and their similar Windows boxes
    >> is too low. The company should be offering a no-OS version for people
    >> who want to install a different distribution. The company didn't follow
    >> the GPL correctly. The company didn't offer the right video card. The
    >> company is not *really* behind Linux--it is just some tactic to try to
    >> Microsoft to give them a better deal on Windows, or they are offering a
    >> small number of Linux systems so Microsoft can say that Microsoft
    >> doesn't have a monopoly. The company is a company.
    >>
    >> Some random member of the public thinking about that box who does a
    >> little web research will find all that crap, and that will make it seem
    >> a lot safer to buy another Windows box, or maybe give Apple try.
    >>
    >> And then there are the zealots who use weird arguments for desktop
    >> Linux. For example, some cell phones use Linux, so you should use it on
    >> your desktop. Do these people live in some alternate universe where
    >> people generally *like* cell phone software and go around saying "I wish
    >> my desktop were more like my cell phone!"? (And no, people are
    >> generally not going to know, when the zealot tells them their cell phone
    >> runs Linux, that he just means the base OS, and that the horrible thing
    >> the user interacts with and hates is just an application running on top
    >> of Linux).

    >
    > Well said. And what the COLA gang dont realise is just how poorly they
    > are servicing the LINUX/GNU community by doing all you said above.
    >
    > A crying shame IMO.


    I think some do but since they are being paid to act like that it doesn't
    matter.

  4. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers StrongGrowth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    On Jan 25, 3:08 pm, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:

    > > Apple is doing well... so why can't Linux?


    Apple has stores in major shopping centers all over the United States
    where casual shoppers can go in, play with an Apple, for 10-20 minutes
    at a time, a few times over a month, and can eventually decide that
    Apple's OS/X is easier to use and work with than Windows or Vista.
    Most of the time, the store is crowded with people waiting for their
    turn to try out that Apple computer. When they are ready to make
    their purchase, there are well trained people who can make sure that
    they get the hardware and software that best fits their needs. In the
    long run Apple ends up with a very satisfied customer who is more than
    eager to share their satisfaction with friends. They've been able to
    make an informed decision and have had the real freedom to choose.

    Linux depends on word of mouth, more like an Amway organization. A
    satisfied Linux user will share his delight with Linux with friends,
    usually Windows users. The Linux user might download an ISO image for
    a Bootable CD or a Bootable DVD, and burn a few copies for his
    friends. The friends boot up the CD and see a nice user interface,
    but it's unfamiliar. They see a wide selection of applications, but
    they have strange names. They see strange looking icons they don't
    recognize, with names they don't understand. If the friend is there
    with them, they might get a "guided tour", but more often, they are
    just looking at the interface by themselves.

    For some, this strange new environment is too confronting. They like
    what they are familiar with, and they play with it for 20-30 minutes,
    and say "that's nice" and pull out the CD and boot up Windows again.
    It's not a very well informed decision, but it's a choice. Often,
    this choice can be influenced by hardware incompatibility. They might
    be using a laptop and Linux doesn't support their particular WiFi
    card. They may try to play a 3D game, and find that the graphics
    accellorator for their card wasn't loaded. In short, their experience
    wasn't managed in a controlled environment, where their first
    experience was with a machine that was properly configured for Linux
    and everything worked properly.

    For others, this new and unusual interface and strange new
    applications is more like an adventure. They begin to explore, to
    play, to try out the different applications. They have a "Linux
    ready" computer, and everything works right out of the box. They find
    they like the experience of this new environment. They look at some
    of the documentation, and look up Linux on the web. They might even
    repartition their hard drive so that they can install Linux in a "dual
    boot" configuration, or they will use a thumb drive for their home
    account directory, so that they can save preferences and configuration
    information.

    The irony is that even if they install Linux, there won't be any
    record of it. The software was downloaded by their friend. The
    friend may have burned 20-30 CDs, and 20 of his friends may have
    decided this was "cool" and installed Linux for themselves, and yet
    they won't show up on any of the metrics used by IDC. Furthermore,
    they may have to boot into Windows to do homework or play games that
    are only available on Windows, so they might not even be counted as
    Linux by browser surveys.

    If they really like Linux, they might buy a new computer with Windows,
    and put Linux on the old computer. Still, there is no record of Linux
    being installed. If they are sharing a cablemodem or dsl line with
    the rest of the family, there might be other Windows computers as well
    as the Linux computer. About the only indicator will be when he
    configures his Linux system to download updates from an update site
    such as a YUM site. Since these sites are also unofficial mirrors,
    this could also be "under the radar" of the metrics used by
    organizations such as Gartner and IDC.

    Of course, the Linux user may like Linux, but he may also want to
    explore different distributions. He might at this point download a
    few different distributions from free mirrors. He'll install them,
    try them out, and see which one provides the best "fit". Still, there
    is no official record of his being a Linux user.

    Perhaps, after using freebie distributions for a year or so, he will
    finally obtain a commercially supported version of Linux. He will
    register for the official commercial support. At that point, he will
    be "counted" because he is paying his $50 per year for support.

    Even if he really loves Linux and really enjoys using it, he still has
    to interact with people who use Windows. He has class assignments
    that have to be turned in in Word format. He may be working in a job
    where he has to use Windows at work, but he can bring his Linux laptop
    if he wants. Or he may decide to install vmware player and install
    LInux as a virtual client. This way he still has his Windows XP
    interface, but he also has his Linux tools. The only problem is that
    Linux in this environment is a bit slow.

    Eventually, he buys a new computer for Linux. But rather than just
    ordering a Linux desktop that has no Windows license, possibly from
    some company that sells PCs preinstalled with Linux, he will go ahead
    and buy a PC that has Windows XP professional preloaded. This way he
    has a legal Windows XP license. He buys the computer with extra
    memory, and possibly a higher resolution display. He also orders a
    "recovery disk" so he can install Windows XP as a Virtual client under
    Xen or VMWare.

    Note that the machine was sold with Windows, but by this point, the
    end users have no trouble installing Linux themselves. The entire
    installation of Linux takes about 30 minutes, and the virtual client
    installation takes less time than the original Windows re-
    installation. The user might get Office Basic just so that he can
    validate the layouts before final delivery of documents composed using
    OpenOffice.

    Nobody, including the Linux distributors, really knows how many Linux
    users there are. Microsoft and Google probably have the best idea,
    because they don't count IP addresses, they can count registered users
    and see how many are using Windows, Linux, or both. But neither is
    sharing that information with anybody.

    > Applications.


    Linux has lots of applications, probably more than Apple.
    Not as many as Windows, but these days, many Windows applications are
    actually "Multiplatform", written in platform independent Java, or
    written to API wrappers such as cygwin, allowing the same source to be
    used for Linux, Windows, and Mac, giving them the largest possible
    market.

    > Help systems.


    This is Microsoft's Forte'. However, more and more of the more recent
    Linux applications have improved help systems and improved context
    sensitive help. Linux on the other hand, has a robust set of
    documentation that is available in the form of printed books, web
    pages, or browsable text. This information is usually indexed and can
    be easily found on the local machine, or on the web.

    > One stop shopping.


    This is the biggest problem in terms of statistical success. With
    OEMs unable to install BOTH Windows and Linux themselves, it's very
    hard to track Linux users. There may be hundreds of millions of Linux
    users, but none of those would be measured by the configuration of the
    machine when purchased.

    Even surveys get it wrong. When a survey asks "What operating system
    do you use" it's usually a Radio Button. It should be a check box.
    The same should be true with Linux. It should be "Which version of
    Windows do you want?" AND "Which version of Linux would you like?", or
    at least a checkbox asking if you would like Linux installed.

    Even better would be giving the user the option of selecting which
    PRIMARY operating system they want (including Linux) and which
    SECONDARY virtual operating system(s) they want.

    It's not as hard as it seems. There are several Virtualization
    solutions that provide a common "core" based on a "base" LInux system,
    which then allows you to run Windows, Linux, or both, and take
    advantage of hardware capabilities such as 64 bit processing, disk
    caching and buffering, and security, without sacrificing 32 bit
    compatibility on Windows.

    > Integration with personal multimedia.


    Linux has that. In fact, Linux has multiple competitors.

    > A total lack of a geek like community, that has in recent years turned from
    > just plain strange and geeky to nasty and paranoid.


    The Linux "geek" community has grown up. It's a bit like the Nerd
    community that became PC users and supporters, and became millionaires
    in the Internet dot.com world. Many of those Linux users who started
    using Linux in high school back in 1995 have gone on to college, and
    are now making six figure incomes in the corporate world, or are
    millionaires from creating e-commerce systems and working as
    consultants and/or contractors, and organizing groups of contractors.

    Linux and Open Source Software have gone mainstream, especially in the
    Server room. In fact, Linux and OSS have changed the look of the
    Server room. These days, the server rooms are highly secured, and
    very rarely have people in them. In fact, the noise levels are so
    high that when a new system is being installed, the technicians need
    to wear noise cancelling headsets to prevent hearing damage.
    Fortunately, installation is often as simple as plugging in a new
    blade into a blade rack. The only time anyone has to spend more than
    a few minutes in the server room is when they are building a new rack,
    even then, there is often a "prep room" where the racks are configured
    before they are rolled in and placed in the server room.

    In smaller organizations, the server room might just be a closet or
    storage room, that's locked all the time. There just isn't any need,
    with Linux and Unix, to go into the server room. Windows 2003 servers
    have reduced the need to go into the server room, but they still
    require much more manual intervention. In some server rooms, they are
    put in a quiet area, because more manual support is required.
    Fortunately, it's usually just rebooting the box. Even when it's time
    to reinstall the system, the Windows servers are connected to storage
    controllers that have "spare" backup images that can be copied into
    the OS filesystem, usually using a UNIX interface (since most storage
    controllers are based on UNIX or Linux).

    Linux is migrating to the desktops, but using a carefully planned
    strategy. Many companies have deployed Linux at Point of Service
    (POS) environments. For example, cash registers, credit card approval
    systems, and kiosks have been migrated to Linux. Many franchises such
    as McDonalds, Burger King, and the Pepsico franchises (KFC, Taco Bell,
    Pizza Hut,...) have installed Linux based cash registers.

    Telephone service centers are also beginning to migrate to Linux,
    which makes it easier for operators to switch between virtual
    desktops, and gives them real-time dynamic interfaces that outperform
    Web interfaces. The result is that there are fewer reboots while
    working a call, and fewer delays waiting for access to different
    support systems.

    Power users are also ADDING Linux to their systems. In many cases,
    they have been using Cygwin on Windows for several years, and many are
    using desktop virtualization to give them full-blown Linux and full-
    blown Windows systems. In addition, many employees are purchasing
    their own laptops, on which they can install Linux. Many corporations
    have adopted Linux policies such as auditing tools that will test for
    standard security practices and report Linux vulnerabilities to
    management.


  5. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    Rex Ballard writes:

    > On Jan 25, 3:08 pm, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >
    >> > Apple is doing well... so why can't Linux?

    >
    > Apple has stores in major shopping centers all over the United States
    > where casual shoppers can go in, play with an Apple, for 10-20 minutes
    > at a time, a few times over a month, and can eventually decide that
    > Apple's OS/X is easier to use and work with than Windows or Vista.


    So you agree that a traditional retail channel is a good thing? Good
    because some of your more nutty fellow advocates disagreed....

  6. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers StrongGrowth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    On Jan 26, 12:55 pm, Hadron wrote:
    > Rex Ballard writes:
    > > On Jan 25, 3:08 pm, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:

    >
    > >> > Apple is doing well... so why can't Linux?

    >
    > > Apple has stores in major shopping centers all over the United States
    > > where casual shoppers can go in, play with an Apple, for 10-20 minutes
    > > at a time, a few times over a month, and can eventually decide that
    > > Apple's OS/X is easier to use and work with than Windows or Vista.

    >
    > So you agree that a traditional retail channel is a good thing? Good
    > because some of your more nutty fellow advocates disagreed....


    YES! I absolutely agree. Until a consumer can walk into a retail
    store and compare Windows and Linux side by side, and make an informed
    choice, Windows will continue to be the "default" selection.

    Perhaps now that Acer has purchased Gateway, Acer will start putting
    Linux computers on display in the retail stores that Gateway had
    created to try and better market their products. Dell has also gone
    to the retail market, and opened that distribution channel. It's
    possible that Dell will begin to use this channel to display Linux
    products.

    Keep in mind that Linux has a revenue growth rate of 50% according to
    SEC filings by Novell. Linux unit volumes seem to continue to be
    doubling every 18 months. Based on surveys such as browser surveys,
    Linux growth indicates unit volume increase around 80 million units
    per year, which would be equal to 40% of the number of PCs shipped
    world wide in the same period (roughly 230 million per year). Windows
    users are either upgrading to Vista or replacing their XP systems
    while XP is still available. This does not necessarily indicate an
    increase in the total number of Windows users.

    Linux momentum tends to shift. Often, Linux growth slows when a new
    version of Windows is first introduced, but then picks up about a year
    later. This is probably because the old machines being replaced are
    abundant, and easily converted to Linux.

    Ultimately, however, having a retail presence would be a huge boon to
    Linux. It's hard to say what percentage of the retail customers would
    choose Linux over Windows, but it could be as high as 40% to 60%,
    especially during periods when Windows is the "same old stuff" and
    Linux is something new, unique, and different. Typically, about
    40-60% of any group will choose new and different over something that
    looks like what they are getting rid of. It's why car makers change
    styles every few years, why appliance maker introduce new looks and
    configurations, and why most manufacturers introduce "New and
    Improved" versions of almost everything from Laundry soap to food to
    automobiles to houses.

    There are two possible scenarios, both based on what happened with the
    Automobile industry.

    In the first, a small company introduces Linux powered computers and
    enjoys exponential growth rates, similar to the way Honda and Toyota
    introduced compact cars to the United States and became leaders in the
    automotive market.

    In the second, a major car maker introduces a new concept that then
    grows to become increasingly popular, such as the introduction of the
    MiniVan and the SUV.

    We see both scenarios today.

    Several small companies like ASUS and Everex, have introduced Linux
    power ultra-compact laptop computers that are smaller and more
    efficient that Windows systems, but equally functional. These have
    already hit some retailers, who can't keep up with the demand.

    At the other end of the spectrum, ACER, now the third largest PC
    maker, has been making "Linux Ready" machines for almost a decade, and
    could very easily introduce Linux to the retail shelves as part of
    their offerings.


  7. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    Hadron wrote:

    > Rex Ballard writes:
    >
    >> On Jan 25, 3:08 pm, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >>
    >>> > Apple is doing well... so why can't Linux?

    >>
    >> Apple has stores in major shopping centers all over the United States
    >> where casual shoppers can go in, play with an Apple, for 10-20 minutes
    >> at a time, a few times over a month, and can eventually decide that
    >> Apple's OS/X is easier to use and work with than Windows or Vista.

    >
    > So you agree that a traditional retail channel is a good thing? Good
    > because some of your more nutty fellow advocates disagreed....


    For hardware? Certainly
    For software? Why exactly? Especially if that software does not cost
    anything...
    --
    Linux is not a desktop OS for people whose VCRs are still
    flashing "12:00". -- Paul Tomblin


  8. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:04:15 +0100, Peter Köhlmann wrote:

    > Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> Rex Ballard writes:
    >>
    >>> On Jan 25, 3:08 pm, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> > Apple is doing well... so why can't Linux?
    >>>
    >>> Apple has stores in major shopping centers all over the United States
    >>> where casual shoppers can go in, play with an Apple, for 10-20 minutes
    >>> at a time, a few times over a month, and can eventually decide that
    >>> Apple's OS/X is easier to use and work with than Windows or Vista.

    >>
    >> So you agree that a traditional retail channel is a good thing? Good
    >> because some of your more nutty fellow advocates disagreed....

    >
    > For hardware? Certainly
    > For software? Why exactly? Especially if that software does not cost
    > anything...


    Exposure.
    People like to touch and feel things.

    However, all the local computer stores have boxes of Linux, books on Linux
    etc in them.
    People just don't seem interested.

  9. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    Moshe Goldfarb writes:

    > On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:04:15 +0100, Peter Köhlmann wrote:
    >
    >> Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >>> Rex Ballard writes:
    >>>
    >>>> On Jan 25, 3:08 pm, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> > Apple is doing well... so why can't Linux?
    >>>>
    >>>> Apple has stores in major shopping centers all over the United States
    >>>> where casual shoppers can go in, play with an Apple, for 10-20 minutes
    >>>> at a time, a few times over a month, and can eventually decide that
    >>>> Apple's OS/X is easier to use and work with than Windows or Vista.
    >>>
    >>> So you agree that a traditional retail channel is a good thing? Good
    >>> because some of your more nutty fellow advocates disagreed....

    >>
    >> For hardware? Certainly


    And that HW running Linux there gives exposure.

    Or you disagree? It wouldn't surprise me that the rest of the world is
    wrong and COLA is right....

  10. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:39:05 +0100, Hadron wrote:

    > Moshe Goldfarb writes:
    >
    >> On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:04:15 +0100, Peter Köhlmann wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hadron wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Rex Ballard writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Jan 25, 3:08 pm, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> > Apple is doing well... so why can't Linux?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Apple has stores in major shopping centers all over the United States
    >>>>> where casual shoppers can go in, play with an Apple, for 10-20 minutes
    >>>>> at a time, a few times over a month, and can eventually decide that
    >>>>> Apple's OS/X is easier to use and work with than Windows or Vista.
    >>>>
    >>>> So you agree that a traditional retail channel is a good thing? Good
    >>>> because some of your more nutty fellow advocates disagreed....
    >>>
    >>> For hardware? Certainly

    >
    > And that HW running Linux there gives exposure.
    >
    > Or you disagree? It wouldn't surprise me that the rest of the world is
    > wrong and COLA is right....


    This group is like a freaking merry-go-round.
    Each time the unicorn comes around, it has a different story to tell.

    Tim Smith had it spot on with his post.

  11. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers StrongGrowth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:43:30 +0100, Hadron wrote:

    > Moshe Goldfarb writes:
    >
    >> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 04:34:43 -0800 (PST), raylopez99 wrote:
    >>
    >>> Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth and Includes a Sunny Forecast New
    >>> York Times - 9 hours ago
    >>> By STEVE LOHR Microsoft reported quarterly sales and profit gains that
    >>> surpassed Wall Street's expectations and delivered an optimistic
    >>> outlook Thursday, suggesting that a weakening economy would not slow
    >>> it down.
    >>> Microsoft Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales Washington Post

    >>
    >> Roy seems to have missed this one in his daily news splorge.

    >
    > I find this depressing.
    >
    > Vista is a heap of **** IMO. XP is an excellent home OS when properly
    > secured.
    >
    > 2007 really could have been the year of Linux - but I am afraid the
    > zealots and the total confusion regarding the GPL is ham stringing
    > progress. Now Vista is cleaning up its act and its pretty much game over
    > for Linux. Not necessarily of OSS, but Linux as a desktop OS is pretty
    > much doomed it would appear. Too little too late. This pains me. I have
    > invested a lot of time and effort in getting used to it. I actually did
    > think 2007 would see a HUGE linux uptake. It simply has not happened.
    > People are too much in their comfort zone with MS. Whether herd
    > mentality or whatever irrelevant. It is a fact.
    >
    > MS increasing profits is not good for the most of us.


    I would suggest a marketing campaign to place pictures of happy penguins
    using Linux to surf the net in magazines, newspapers, billboards, bumper
    stickers, fliers and on vehicles, tee shirts, jackets and NASA race cars.

    At some POINT in time, someone, somewhere is gonna notice this animal and
    think to themselves "what's this bird doing ??". This will be the
    beginning of a chain reaction and suddenly everyone will be talking
    about the new free, fun operating system !!



    and God said "let Tesla be", and then there was light

  12. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    John Locke wrote:

    > I would suggest a marketing campaign to place pictures of happy
    > penguins using Linux to surf the net in magazines, newspapers,
    > billboards, bumper stickers, fliers and on vehicles, tee shirts,
    > jackets and NASA race cars.


    National Aeronautics Stock Automobiles? Well, at least we know you don't
    work at NASA.



    > At some POINT in time, someone, somewhere is gonna notice this animal
    > and think to themselves "what's this bird doing ??".


    Slow, homely and portly - yep, a perfect mascot for Linux.



    > This will be the
    > beginning of a chain reaction and suddenly everyone will be talking
    > about the new free, fun operating system !!


    You could start by using Linux yourself, and in your business.




  13. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers StrongGrowth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    On Jan 26, 2:33 pm, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    > On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:04:15 +0100, Peter Köhlmann wrote:


    > Exposure.
    > People like to touch and feel things.


    Very much. This seems to be Microsoft's worst fear. Even Ballmer and
    Allchin feared that if Linux were on display in retail stores, or any
    other public facility, that it would become a serious contender to
    Windows. They have done everything they can to prevent this from
    happening. Unfortunately, they are starting to lose their leverage,
    especially with retailers who are closing their doors or sitting on
    unsold Vista inventory, while Microsoft reports 87% profit growth, and
    OEMs who are spending more per PC for Vista, yet are making less per
    PC in profits.

    The question is when the band will "snap", and Retailers will demand
    alternatives to Windows, and PC makers will want to provide them.
    Windows has become a commodity, reducing even the finest and best
    computers and engineering as functionally identical to even the
    cheapest and simplest of the Windows systems. Linux provides a new
    way for PC makers to distinguish themselves, without sacrificing
    compatibility with other systems. Even if every PC maker adopted his
    own Linux distribution, the LSB3 standard would assure that users
    could transition between the machines, that software would be
    available for all machines, and that everything worked well together,
    but at the same time, the OEM could establish a "Personality" based on
    their branding and functionality.

    > However, all the local computer stores have boxes of Linux, books on Linuxetc in them.
    > People just don't seem interested.


    There are a few ways to check to see if the issue is just that no one
    is interested, or if the retailer is just restocking the shelves
    regularly. Put small marks, less than 1/8th of an inch, using
    different color pens on the display stock, then come back in a week to
    see how many books have been replaced. If they all have the markings,
    you know you're correct. If the markings have disappeared, then you
    know that they have been restocked.

    Don't forget to check out the local book stores as well. These days,
    I can go to Borders or Barnes and Noble and have my selection of 8-10
    different Linux distributions, via Magazines and Books, most of which
    have DVDs full of Linux in them. I don't have to mark the Magazines
    because they are dated, with month and year. I've seen as many as 30
    copies of the various magazines sold in a week. It's possible that
    even that was restocked. There are about 30 Book stores in the area
    with similar inventory.


  14. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers StrongGrowth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    Rex Ballard wrote:
    > On Jan 26, 2:33 pm, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
    >> On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:04:15 +0100, Peter Köhlmann wrote:

    >
    >> Exposure.
    >> People like to touch and feel things.

    >
    > Very much. This seems to be Microsoft's worst fear. Even Ballmer and
    > Allchin feared that if Linux were on display in retail stores, or any
    > other public facility, that it would become a serious contender to
    > Windows. They have done everything they can to prevent this from
    > happening. Unfortunately, they are starting to lose their leverage,
    > especially with retailers who are closing their doors or sitting on
    > unsold Vista inventory, while Microsoft reports 87% profit growth, and
    > OEMs who are spending more per PC for Vista, yet are making less per
    > PC in profits.
    >


    You got to prove it. Man, talk is cheap, and I no more trust anything
    you have to say than the man in the Moon saying it. When did you become
    an expert? I don't think your own people even believe you. You're too
    ridiculous with this. You have some kind of sickness within you mentally
    about this.

  15. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    * Rex Ballard peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > On Jan 26, 2:04 pm, Peter Köhlmann
    >
    >> For software? Why exactly?

    >
    > Retail offerings have been a key element in commercializing Linux.
    > Red Hat was the first company to offer Linux on retailer shelves. It
    > was expensive, about $50 per copy, but was initially displayed close
    > to Windows upgrades, which made it seem cheap. The complete multiple
    > CD set, along with a large book, gave new users not only an easily
    > accessible media, but also provided the documentation required to
    > properly install and configure Linux on most PCs.


    However, these days you won't find those Linux boxed sets for sale in
    retail outlets (at least where I live). I think basically they stopped
    being necessary.

    I used to buy them, but stopped once I got into Debian.

    You can still find CD's in books at Barnes & Noble, and in the
    magazines.

    > Even today, at Borders, Barns & Noble, and other large book stores,
    > you will find books and magazines with Linux media attached. These
    > are used to promote new distributions, especially commercial
    > distributions. Many now have DVDs completely packed with applications
    > as well as the Linux kernel.


    Ah, there ya go.

    > I recently saw one PC magazine which had a CD containing vmware player
    > AND a Linux appliance, and had an article describing how to install
    > them and run Linux as a Windows application.
    >
    >> Especially if that software does not cost anything...

    >
    > These days, more and more people have access to high speed internet.
    > This has made it much easier to download new distributions.


    That's the ticket. That, and word of mouth, are now the primary drivers
    of Linux to the desktop, in my opinion.

    > Linux on the other hand, is not as well managed.


    Thank god, or we'd end up a thorough hijacking of Free software.

    Or, at best, a one-throat-to-choke entity that Microsoft could
    effectively quash.

    --
    Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.
    -- Bill Gates

  16. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers StrongGrowth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:41:21 -0500, DFS wrote:

    > John Locke wrote:
    >
    >> I would suggest a marketing campaign to place pictures of happy
    >> penguins using Linux to surf the net in magazines, newspapers,
    >> billboards, bumper stickers, fliers and on vehicles, tee shirts,
    >> jackets and NASA race cars.

    >
    > National Aeronautics Stock Automobiles? Well, at least we know you
    > don't work at NASA.
    >
    >
    >
    >> At some POINT in time, someone, somewhere is gonna notice this animal
    >> and think to themselves "what's this bird doing ??".

    >
    > Slow, homely and portly - yep, a perfect mascot for Linux.
    >
    >
    >
    >> This will be the
    >> beginning of a chain reaction and suddenly everyone will be talking
    >> about the new free, fun operating system !!

    >
    > You could start by using Linux yourself, and in your business.


    ....and where do you think this post came from ??? And yes, we have
    started using Linux at the office !! Just one workstation but its a start.





    --
    and God said "let Tesla be", and then there was light

  17. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers StrongGrowth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    [snips]

    On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:45:37 -0500, amicus_curious wrote:

    > Linux has no chance last year, this year, or next year because of the
    > simple fact that no one is promoting it at the scale necessary for it to
    > show up on the general population's radar.



    There's a certain grain of truth there. It's *not* in-your-face
    advertised with the multi-million ad campaigns of Windows, and Joe
    Sixpack *doesn't* tend to know a lot about it.

    That said, its exposure *is* steadily growing. I'm not talking revenues,
    it's fundamentally a free product. I'm talking _exposure_.

    More and more companies are deploying it, certainly in the server rooms.
    Demand for Linux geeks is increasing. Being a Linux geek means knowing
    Linux, which generally means also *using* Linux. That's but one source
    of increase, albeit a smallish one.

    However, more and more companies are _also_ rolling out, or at least
    examining, Linux on the desktop. Yes, we're all aware that if some
    company in India rolls out 13,000 desktops, it's not exactly 130 million,
    but neither is it a singular event - the number of companies either doing
    rollouts or examining the possibility is increasing. Which means more
    Linux desktops in the workplace. Slowly, perhaps, but it's still
    happening.

    Then we have the "whatever I use at work" phenomenon. A lot of people
    really don't give a damn *what* they use, as long as it is familiar. If
    they use Macs at work, they'll tend to stick with Macs. If they use
    Linux at work, they'll tend to stick with Linux.

    Meaning that every time a company does a Linux roll-out, there's a high
    probability that at least some of its workers also end up using Linux at
    home.

    Add to this the relatively common availability of Linux preinstalled,
    thanks to Dell and WalMart and others, systems which tend to be
    inexpensive and easily obtained, making them an appealing option to the
    office worker who wants "the same thing at home", to new computer users
    who have no particular reason to choose Windows or Macs over Linux, to
    those who are simply curious and willing to drop a penny or three to look
    and see, and it becomes very easy - and comparatively inexpensive - for
    almost anyone to at least try Linux, even if they lack the requisite
    skills to download an ISO, burn it, repartition and install.

    No, I don't think "The Linux Desktop Revolution" is going to happen this
    year, nor even next. Frankly, I don't think it's *ever* going to happen,
    not in the sense of Linux completely replacing Windows as "the default
    OS". That said, it's pretty clear to anyone interested in actually
    looking that Linux, on the desktop, is growing.

    Growing fast? No, but it doesn't have to, either. Even if every single
    person on the planet had two machines - one for home, one for work - it
    would still be a finite number of desktops, and any rate of growth beyond
    zero will eventually spread throughout the entire computershpere. What
    will be left, unless Microsoft does something really boneheadedly stupid,
    is not one dominant OS, but a cooperative environment of multiple OSen -
    OSX and Windows and Linux, to be sure, with likely more than a few others
    included to at least some degree, such as BSD.

    While Microsoft managed to effectively stave off such intrusions into
    their desktop dominance for many years, it's past that point now, they
    can no longer stem the tide. Nor, however, are they likely to vanish
    from sight: I fully expect to see a lot of Windows on the desktop 10
    years from now, I just expect to see _less_ of it, _more_ of other
    options.

    What some folks don't seem to realize, though, is that while this may not
    be so good for Microsoft - it'll eat into their revenues somewhat - it
    *is* good for the users. All of them, Windows users included.

    The most obvious case of that is if you need to exchange data with
    someone else, whether by talking to a database, or to a network share, or
    simply emailing them a document.

    There are really only two ways to make such a cooperative environment
    work. One is to be a monoculture, where everyone uses the same OS, same
    applications, same file formats, same servers. The other is to allow for
    a diverse culture, but with standardized means of communication -
    standardized document formats, standardized network protocols, etc.

    The monoculture notion could work - largely has worked - but as Macs and
    Linux and other things are making those inroads, the days of the
    monoculture are largely over.

    If a heteroculture is to become the norm, as we're moving to now, it
    requires standardization of many things not currently standard, but the
    payoff to the user is that they can use whatever they like to access
    those means of cooperating.

    They can use Vendor A's word processor, or vendor B's, and each will
    work. They can connect to a net share with Linux or OSX or Windows, and
    it will work. They can create a document in whatever program _they_
    happen to like, hand it off to their boss, or their workers, or their
    clients, not worrying whether the recipient can read it - it's a
    standardized format.

    Many moons ago, when the micros ruled the world, there was something of a
    difficulty. I could create, say, a word processing file on my Osborne,
    give it to you on a floppy, which you could then stick into your Kaypro.
    Would you be able to read that file? What about other file types?

    Chances were, at that point, you couldn't share the data unless you stuck
    to a lowest-common-denominator format such as plain ASCII text, which for
    many purposes isn't acceptable. Too many disparate systems, too many
    incompatibilities, this was not a way to get business done.

    Microsoft, perhaps more than any other organization, solved this, but
    they did so not by making files compatible, they did it by making
    _machines_ compatible: if you're using a PC with Windows and MS Word,
    guess what? So's the guy next to you. So's your client. So's your boss.

    There was a transition phase, as people migrated from cheap micros to
    considerably more expensive PCs, from comparatively cheap software to
    somewhat more expensive tools. They faced the cost of the new machines
    and new software, but also faced the cost of migrating the data.
    Fortunately, despite the popularity of the micros, there just wasn't that
    much really important data, globally, to migrate.

    Users are facing a similar transition phase now. It's not from Windows
    to Linux, it's from monoculture to heteroculture. It's from an
    environment where you knew your documents would be compatible with the
    next guy's software, to an environment where you don't know that.

    The problems are obvious, but there are really only two solutions. One
    is out, the monoculture. The other, standardized formats, protocols and
    the like, meets the same requirements, the same goal of cooperative work,
    sharing data and the like, but it does not require a monoculture to make
    it work.

    Many such standards are in place now, more are coming down the pike.
    Whether it's ODF or something else, whether it's Kerberos or something
    else, this doesn't really matter; what matters is that it works, not just
    on one or two systems, but potentially on any system users wish to use -
    which also means these will have to be _open_ standards, _open_ file
    formats and the like.

    As a user, I face three possible outcomes of this transition. I can
    accept being factionalized, being cut off from many other users, because
    I choose to use software and formats which are not compatible. I can use
    "lowest common denominator" options, such as plain text, where these
    often lack the flexibility I need.

    Or I can adopt software which uses standard formats, standard protocols,
    at which point I don't *care* what the other guy is using, what OS, what
    word processor, what network, I can still exchange the data with him and
    not worry he can't read it.

    Want to use Windows and MS Office? Go right ahead. My OpenOffice under
    Linux, or that guy's office suite under OSX don't care, the files are
    standardized, the means of getting the files to and from you are
    standardized, it simply doesn't matter what you choose to use.

    That is a net win for all users, regardless of the OS or applications
    they prefer to use.

    It _also_ means the users can never be in a position where a vendor can
    hold their data for ransom, by using closed formats and the sheer cost of
    conversion to effectively force users into buying their software, only
    their software. It _also_ means users never risk their data being locked
    into a format they cannot access except with one particular application,
    one which has been discontinued, or the vendor has gone out of business,
    meaning the user is stuck with an outmoded, unsupported app and no way to
    migrate.

    It means the users' data is under the users' control, now and forever,
    regardless of what platform he chooses to use, regardless of which
    vendor's apps he chooses to use.

    It's a win for all, except for Microsoft who are losing their status as
    the One OS to Bind Them All... but then, there's nothing stopping them
    from jumping on the bandwagon and still making a fortune selling their
    software... it just means that as the loss of the monoculture continues,
    they have to adapt to a cooperative world instead.

    They're bright boys, by and large; I'm sure they can manage.


  18. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    * Kelsey Bjarnason peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > [snips]
    >
    > On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:45:37 -0500, amicus_curious wrote:
    >
    >> Linux has no chance last year, this year, or next year because of the
    >> simple fact that no one is promoting it at the scale necessary for it to
    >> show up on the general population's radar.

    >
    > There's a certain grain of truth there. It's *not* in-your-face
    > advertised with the multi-million ad campaigns of Windows, and Joe
    > Sixpack *doesn't* tend to know a lot about it.
    >
    > . . .
    >
    > It's a win for all, except for Microsoft who are losing their status as
    > the One OS to Bind Them All... but then, there's nothing stopping them
    > from jumping on the bandwagon and still making a fortune selling their
    > software... it just means that as the loss of the monoculture continues,
    > they have to adapt to a cooperative world instead.
    >
    > They're bright boys, by and large; I'm sure they can manage.


    Nice post. Too bad Microsoft torpedoed the formats in the first place.

    If only they had achieved that magic 100%.

    Too late now.

    --
    No enterprise is more likely to succeed than one concealed from the enemy until
    it is ripe for execution.
    -- Niccolo Machiavelli

  19. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    In article ,
    Snit wrote:
    > > Then we have the "whatever I use at work" phenomenon. A lot of people
    > > really don't give a damn *what* they use, as long as it is familiar. If
    > > they use Macs at work, they'll tend to stick with Macs. If they use
    > > Linux at work, they'll tend to stick with Linux.

    >
    > Assuming each is easy to buy. When they go to BigBox Co. they tend to get a
    > Windows machine.


    Worse--if they do find a Linux machine there, it tends to be a bargain
    basement model, running Linux because they were trying to hit a very low
    price point. It would be a lot better if those stores that do carry
    Linux did so across the range of their systems--it should be on that
    $3000 laptop in addition to the $300 desktop.

    --
    --Tim Smith

  20. Re: What else is new? (same old story): Microsoft Delivers Strong Growth; Quarterly Profit Up 79% on Vista Sales

    * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > In article ,
    > Snit wrote:
    >> > Then we have the "whatever I use at work" phenomenon. A lot of people
    >> > really don't give a damn *what* they use, as long as it is familiar. If
    >> > they use Macs at work, they'll tend to stick with Macs. If they use
    >> > Linux at work, they'll tend to stick with Linux.

    >>
    >> Assuming each is easy to buy. When they go to BigBox Co. they tend to get a
    >> Windows machine.

    >
    > Worse--if they do find a Linux machine there, it tends to be a bargain
    > basement model, running Linux because they were trying to hit a very low
    > price point. It would be a lot better if those stores that do carry
    > Linux did so across the range of their systems--it should be on that
    > $3000 laptop in addition to the $300 desktop.


    Those people still don't realize that Linux is the high-end solution.

    They still think it is only for increasing the margin.

    --
    If you think your teacher is tough, wait until you get a boss. He doesn't have
    tenure.
    -- Bill Gates

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