Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work? - Linux

This is a discussion on Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work? - Linux ; * Peter Köhlmann peremptorily fired off this memo: > Hadron wrote: >> >> Where am I supposed to look? I am yet to visit one single business using >> it. The odd SW house attempting a port "in case", but ...

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Thread: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

  1. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    * Peter Köhlmann peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >> Where am I supposed to look? I am yet to visit one single business using
    >> it. The odd SW house attempting a port "in case", but that's about it.

    >
    > Because you don't want to see it.
    > Last year business in germany was questioned about linux use. Guess what:
    > 80% of them already where using linux, and most indicated that they would
    > use it more than they did at the time of questioning


    He should stop in Lowe's and look at their computer kiosks.

    He should ask about the IBM checkout systems and IBM's Linux strategy.

    http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/servic...bc/topics.html

    Linux in Retail
    Are you ready for Linux? Come learn how major retailers are getting
    the most out of running Linux in their retail store environment.
    Together with our partner, Novell, you'll get a chance to hear how
    Linux compares to Windows for managing your store environment.

    Anwyay, the news about Dell, Walmart, Asustek, OLPC, and Kindle should
    convince even the most obstreperous, obstinate, and obtuse sceptic that
    things are starting to accelerate in the Linux arena, in spite of the
    best efforts of Microsoft and its partners.

    --
    Of course, this being Perl, we could always take both approaches. :-)
    -- Larry Wall in <199709021744.KAA12428@wall.org>

  2. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >> Perhaps we should be talking about those. My point was that people
    >> interact daily with products and software that they do not know
    >> anything about. Does that make them any less 'mainstream'? Is

    >
    > Erm, you're moving the goalposts. AGAIN - we are talking about desktop
    > SW. Or I am. The type people BUY to do a job.


    And I am saying that desktop software for Linux exists and they
    do not need to buy it at retail. Linux growth is being driven
    by factors other than retail presence, like the vertical business
    applications not found in stores.

    > For goodness sake, you're going around in circles. I am arguing that
    > for it to grab that % it MUST have a traditional retail channel for
    > people to see it that are not already aware of it and its SW.


    I'm not talking in circles, I'm trying to explain how Linux
    expands its desktop presence without having retail exposure.
    Linux desktop software will not gain a presence at retail
    until it gains a bigger slice of the market, we both agree
    there. You claim it cannot gain market presence without
    retail exposure. That is where I disagree. I see vertical
    business growth as being sufficient, and I see the Internet
    as more than adequate (superior even) channel to reach users.

    Now hardware OEMs are a different story, and the arrival of
    successful Linux pre-installs at retail is an encouraging
    sign. If people can walk into a store and buy a Linux sub-
    notebook, take it home and install all the additional software
    they want just by browsing and clicking... then all the
    components for greater desktop Linux growth are in place.

    Linux gains, not by forcing itself into the retail channel,
    but by bypassing it. It is a game changer... disruptive
    technology. Like the Internet that gave it birth and nurtured
    it, Linux plays by new rules. As consumers adopt the new
    mindset of digital delivery over retail sales, Linux gains
    ground. Perhaps you don't think that transition is happening,
    but I do. It is a broad consequence of Internet growth over the
    last decade, and it reaches much farther then just software.

    When you are dealing with intangible products, the Internet wins.

    >> Perhaps you are not looking in the right places? I see plenty of
    >> growth here in the US, and published stats claim the US is lagging
    >> Europe in desktop expansion.

    >
    > Where am I supposed to look? I am yet to visit one single business using
    > it. The odd SW house attempting a port "in case", but that's about it.


    Try surfing the job boards and then go on some interviews at
    places looking for Linux professionals. I'm sure at least a
    few of those places will have desktop Linux systems.

    I'm finding it in plenty of businesses, usually in engineering
    or support departments that work with Linux product development
    or server infrastructure. Those people demand Linux desktops
    to better do their jobs. Linux proves itself as a viable
    desktop in those areas, is adopted at home by some, expands
    into call center... its like watching a mold colony slowly
    take over a basket of fruit.

    Thad
    --
    Yeah, I drank the Open Source cool-aid... Unlike the other brand, it had
    all the ingredients on the label.

  3. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    Linonut writes:

    > * Peter Köhlmann peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> Hadron wrote:
    >>>
    >>> Where am I supposed to look? I am yet to visit one single business using
    >>> it. The odd SW house attempting a port "in case", but that's about it.

    >>
    >> Because you don't want to see it.
    >> Last year business in germany was questioned about linux use. Guess what:
    >> 80% of them already where using linux, and most indicated that they would
    >> use it more than they did at the time of questioning


    80% of them? Bull****. Pure and utter bull****. I suspect about 50-70%
    have Linux servers *possibly*. But we are talking desktops and you know
    it. And I don't count their web host!

    >
    > He should stop in Lowe's and look at their computer kiosks.
    >
    > He should ask about the IBM checkout systems and IBM's Linux strategy.
    >
    > http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/servic...bc/topics.html
    >
    > Linux in Retail
    > Are you ready for Linux? Come learn how major retailers are getting
    > the most out of running Linux in their retail store environment.
    > Together with our partner, Novell, you'll get a chance to hear how
    > Linux compares to Windows for managing your store environment.
    >
    > Anwyay, the news about Dell, Walmart, Asustek, OLPC, and Kindle should
    > convince even the most obstreperous, obstinate, and obtuse sceptic that
    > things are starting to accelerate in the Linux arena, in spite of the
    > best efforts of Microsoft and its partners.


    "starting", "next year", blah blah. I keep reading all this, but I'm not
    seeing this huge % which is constantly paraded around here.

  4. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    "Linonut" stated in post
    1Iskj.59464$N67.49662@bignews5.bellsouth.net on 1/19/08 1:12 PM:

    > * Snit peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> But you do need to figure out that code and hope that it is well written and
    >> then have people who are not the original coders try to add their own style
    >> to it. Sometimes this is not a big deal. Sometimes it is.

    >
    > No you don't. You first need to exercise the code. Then you decide if
    > you want to modify it or use something else. Then you decided if it is
    > better to code it yourself or buy a solution. If you go the latter
    > route, you have to go through the evaluation process all over again.
    >
    > What most people don't realize is that, no matter how bad the code is,
    > you /can/ master it well enough, usually in a couple of weeks.


    Depends on the size of the project... and what you consider "mastering".

    > (Ironically, the hardest stuff we've had to master, as a group, is, I
    > think, Qt 4!)


    I am not trying to say that open source is a bad idea or should not be
    used... but it is not always the best option. You seem to agree.

    --
    I am one of only .3% of people who have avoided becoming a statistic.





  5. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    * Snit peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > But you do need to figure out that code and hope that it is well written and
    > then have people who are not the original coders try to add their own style
    > to it. Sometimes this is not a big deal. Sometimes it is.


    No you don't. You first need to exercise the code. Then you decide if
    you want to modify it or use something else. Then you decided if it is
    better to code it yourself or buy a solution. If you go the latter
    route, you have to go through the evaluation process all over again.

    What most people don't realize is that, no matter how bad the code is,
    you /can/ master it well enough, usually in a couple of weeks.

    (Ironically, the hardest stuff we've had to master, as a group, is, I
    think, Qt 4!)

    --
    Remember folks. Street lights timed for 35 mph are also timed for 70 mph.
    -- Jim Samuels

  6. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    Linonut writes:

    > * Snit peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> But you do need to figure out that code and hope that it is well written and
    >> then have people who are not the original coders try to add their own style
    >> to it. Sometimes this is not a big deal. Sometimes it is.

    >
    > No you don't. You first need to exercise the code. Then you decide if
    > you want to modify it or use something else. Then you decided if it is
    > better to code it yourself or buy a solution. If you go the latter
    > route, you have to go through the evaluation process all over again.
    >
    > What most people don't realize is that, no matter how bad the code is,
    > you /can/ master it well enough, usually in a couple of weeks.


    Complete fantasy. It depends on too many variables to make this
    claim. In addition *everyone* needs to master it if its a big project.

    >
    > (Ironically, the hardest stuff we've had to master, as a group, is, I
    > think, Qt 4!)


    Which isn't very encouraging unless it was the typical bull****ty c++
    object model as usual. Nightmare.

  7. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    * Snit peremptorily fired off this memo:

    >> What most people don't realize is that, no matter how bad the code is,
    >> you /can/ master it well enough, usually in a couple of weeks.

    >
    > Depends on the size of the project... and what you consider "mastering".


    I mean reformatting the code, cleaning out some of the junk, getting it
    to build, running it, understanding how it works, and then being able to
    tweak it safely.

    >> (Ironically, the hardest stuff we've had to master, as a group, is, I
    >> think, Qt 4!)

    >
    > I am not trying to say that open source is a bad idea or should not be
    > used... but it is not always the best option. You seem to agree.


    I do. Start with open source, see if it can work for you.

    --
    The prayer of serenity applies here. To both of us. :-)
    -- Larry Wall in <199710141802.LAA22443@wall.org>

  8. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    Linonut writes:

    > * Snit peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >>> What most people don't realize is that, no matter how bad the code is,
    >>> you /can/ master it well enough, usually in a couple of weeks.

    >>
    >> Depends on the size of the project... and what you consider "mastering".

    >
    > I mean reformatting the code, cleaning out some of the junk, getting
    > it


    A wonderful bit of advocacy there from Liarnut for OSS.

    You almost certainly would not do those things since that would make it
    bloody hard to diff the code at a later date for trunk changes to be
    brought into your branch. Unless you're talking one off pilfering of
    code? I think you are. Tut tut. Change it all eh? Drop the GPL license
    and quietly but surely "own" it. A tad like Lapdog and his usenet stats
    program which lists *titter* Mark Kent as a "quality poster".

    > to build, running it, understanding how it works, and then being able to
    > tweak it safely.


    Then you're living in cloud cuckoo land. Any project of any half decent
    size would take much longer than that for meaningful changes to be made
    which didn't screw up the architecture/flow at a later date.

    >
    >>> (Ironically, the hardest stuff we've had to master, as a group, is, I
    >>> think, Qt 4!)

    >>
    >> I am not trying to say that open source is a bad idea or should not be
    >> used... but it is not always the best option. You seem to agree.

    >
    > I do. Start with open source, see if it can work for you.


    --
    BOFH excuse #99:

    SIMM crosstalk.

  9. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    "Linonut" stated in post
    g%tkj.2629$1f.600@bignews9.bellsouth.net on 1/19/08 2:41 PM:

    > * Snit peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >>> What most people don't realize is that, no matter how bad the code is,
    >>> you /can/ master it well enough, usually in a couple of weeks.

    >>
    >> Depends on the size of the project... and what you consider "mastering".

    >
    > I mean reformatting the code, cleaning out some of the junk, getting it
    > to build, running it, understanding how it works, and then being able to
    > tweak it safely.


    By the time you reformat and clean out the "junk" etc. how much time can you
    save? Sometimes a lot... sometimes, I am sure, not so much.

    >>> (Ironically, the hardest stuff we've had to master, as a group, is, I
    >>> think, Qt 4!)

    >>
    >> I am not trying to say that open source is a bad idea or should not be
    >> used... but it is not always the best option. You seem to agree.

    >
    > I do. Start with open source, see if it can work for you.


    Well, I am not a programmer. I do build solutions with FM Pro and have
    looked at other solutions for ideas, but I rarely start with someone else's
    base. Everyone has their own style...

    --
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
    nothing. - Edmund Burke


  10. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    "Linonut" stated in post
    e8zkj.55792$vt2.33437@bignews8.bellsouth.net on 1/19/08 8:32 PM:

    > * Snit peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> Well, I am not a programmer. I do build solutions with FM Pro and have
    >> looked at other solutions for ideas, but I rarely start with someone else's
    >> base. Everyone has their own style...

    >
    > Indeed. The more you know, the more choices you have.


    And a knowledgeable person - or community - knows how to narrow the choices
    down.


    --
    Dear Aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...21217782777472


  11. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    * Snit peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > Well, I am not a programmer. I do build solutions with FM Pro and have
    > looked at other solutions for ideas, but I rarely start with someone else's
    > base. Everyone has their own style...


    Indeed. The more you know, the more choices you have.

    --
    Slow day. Practice crawling.

  12. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    * Snit peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > "Linonut" stated in post
    >>
    >>> Well, I am not a programmer. I do build solutions with FM Pro and have
    >>> looked at other solutions for ideas, but I rarely start with someone else's
    >>> base. Everyone has their own style...

    >>
    >> Indeed. The more you know, the more choices you have.

    >
    > And a knowledgeable person - or community - knows how to narrow the choices
    > down.


    Indeed. However, each person who asks gets a different narrowing.

    Next, you'll be telling me which programmer's editor I must use.

    --
    Perhaps the biggest disappointments were the ones you expected anyway.

  13. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    "Linonut" stated in post
    feBkj.58052$_m.54656@bignews4.bellsouth.net on 1/19/08 10:55 PM:

    > * Snit peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> "Linonut" stated in post
    >>>
    >>>> Well, I am not a programmer. I do build solutions with FM Pro and have
    >>>> looked at other solutions for ideas, but I rarely start with someone else's
    >>>> base. Everyone has their own style...
    >>>
    >>> Indeed. The more you know, the more choices you have.

    >>
    >> And a knowledgeable person - or community - knows how to narrow the choices
    >> down.

    >
    > Indeed. However, each person who asks gets a different narrowing.
    >
    > Next, you'll be telling me which programmer's editor I must use.


    Why would I do that?

    Keep in mind I am not telling you which distro to use... I am asking you
    (and others in COLA) to stop pretending there are no downsides to choice.


    --
    It usually takes me more than three weeks to prepare a good impromptu
    speech. -- Mark Twain


  14. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    * Snit peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > Keep in mind I am not telling you which distro to use... I am asking you
    > (and others in COLA) to stop pretending there are no downsides to choice.


    There are no downsides to choice. I absolutely /love/ the choices I
    have available to me.

    I can see how some newbie might be dazzled if all this choice were
    /thrust/ upon him/her. But it is not. The newbie simply asks for
    advice, and that quickly narrows down the choices.

    You clowns remind me of the Devo tune:

    Freedom of choice/
    Is what you got/
    Freedom from choice/
    Is what you want/

    Yeah. I got a wide choice of distro configurations, a wide choice of
    hardware platforms and hardware vendors, a wide choice of desktop
    solutions, a wide choice of pre-packaged applications, and you want me
    to throw all that away just to experience the glories of an Apple
    system?

    Nuts!

    That being said, I would rather see a user adopt an Apple than a Window.

    --
    Government lies, and newspapers lie, but in a democracy they are different lies.

  15. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    "Linonut" stated in post
    PnKkj.56079$vt2.47285@bignews8.bellsouth.net on 1/20/08 9:19 AM:

    > * Snit peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> Keep in mind I am not telling you which distro to use... I am asking you
    >> (and others in COLA) to stop pretending there are no downsides to choice.

    >
    > There are no downsides to choice.


    Incorrect... as has been discussed in the past and shown with studies. You
    are a perfect example of a Linux advocate who will not recognize the
    downsides to choice. Thanks.

    > I absolutely /love/ the choices I have available to me.


    Not in contention... like or dislike what you wish to.

    > I can see how some newbie might be dazzled if all this choice were
    > /thrust/ upon him/her. But it is not. The newbie simply asks for
    > advice, and that quickly narrows down the choices.


    Ask who? Where? From what I have seen in COLA when I ask for advice I am
    told to try them all and make up my own mind... or just try one and deal
    with it... and do the distro dance to try to find a distro that meets my
    needs (needs I have specified in the past).

    > You clowns remind me of the Devo tune:
    >
    > Freedom of choice/
    > Is what you got/
    > Freedom from choice/
    > Is what you want/
    >
    > Yeah. I got a wide choice of distro configurations, a wide choice of
    > hardware platforms and hardware vendors, a wide choice of desktop
    > solutions, a wide choice of pre-packaged applications, and you want me
    > to throw all that away just to experience the glories of an Apple
    > system?


    Who wants you to throw what away? What are you talking about? You are
    sounding paranoid.

    > Nuts!
    >
    > That being said, I would rather see a user adopt an Apple than a Window.





    --
    The direct use of physical force is so poor a solution to the problem of
    limited resources that it is commonly employed only by small children and
    great nations. - David Friedman


  16. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:19:46 -0500, Linonut wrote:

    > * Snit peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> Keep in mind I am not telling you which distro to use... I am asking
    >> you (and others in COLA) to stop pretending there are no downsides to
    >> choice.

    >
    > There are no downsides to choice. I absolutely /love/ the choices I
    > have available to me.
    >
    > I can see how some newbie might be dazzled if all this choice were
    > /thrust/ upon him/her. But it is not. The newbie simply asks for
    > advice, and that quickly narrows down the choices.
    >
    > You clowns remind me of the Devo tune:
    >
    > Freedom of choice/
    > Is what you got/
    > Freedom from choice/
    > Is what you want/
    >
    > Yeah. I got a wide choice of distro configurations, a wide choice of
    > hardware platforms and hardware vendors, a wide choice of desktop
    > solutions, a wide choice of pre-packaged applications, and you want me
    > to throw all that away just to experience the glories of an Apple
    > system?
    >
    > Nuts!
    >
    > That being said, I would rather see a user adopt an Apple than a Window.


    Snit hasn't shown any downsides to choice. I doubt he will, except for
    saying "novices will be confused". Well, duh. No one is born with the
    knowledge to run anything.

    --
    Rick

  17. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    "Rick" stated in post 13p6v664tqovvd7@news.supernews.com
    on 1/20/08 9:54 AM:

    > On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 11:19:46 -0500, Linonut wrote:
    >
    >> * Snit peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >>
    >>> Keep in mind I am not telling you which distro to use... I am asking
    >>> you (and others in COLA) to stop pretending there are no downsides to
    >>> choice.

    >>
    >> There are no downsides to choice. I absolutely /love/ the choices I
    >> have available to me.
    >>
    >> I can see how some newbie might be dazzled if all this choice were
    >> /thrust/ upon him/her. But it is not. The newbie simply asks for
    >> advice, and that quickly narrows down the choices.
    >>
    >> You clowns remind me of the Devo tune:
    >>
    >> Freedom of choice/
    >> Is what you got/
    >> Freedom from choice/
    >> Is what you want/
    >>
    >> Yeah. I got a wide choice of distro configurations, a wide choice of
    >> hardware platforms and hardware vendors, a wide choice of desktop
    >> solutions, a wide choice of pre-packaged applications, and you want me
    >> to throw all that away just to experience the glories of an Apple
    >> system?
    >>
    >> Nuts!
    >>
    >> That being said, I would rather see a user adopt an Apple than a Window.

    >
    > Snit hasn't shown any downsides to choice. I doubt he will, except for
    > saying "novices will be confused". Well, duh. No one is born with the
    > knowledge to run anything.


    I thought you claimed to be not reading my posts. How do you know what I
    have or have not shown?

    By the way, references to scientific studies have been posted in COLA
    before... do you need help finding them?


    --
    Picture of a tuna soda: http://snipurl.com/f351
    Feel free to ask for the recipe.




  18. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    Peter Köhlmann wrote:

    > To make it simpler for twats like you, "icecream" is handling off
    > portions of a compile job to several machines in a "compile cluster",
    > bringing down the total time to compile BIG projects.
    >
    > You know, not the toy one types like your VB thingies


    I'm glad you brought this 'toy' issue up, dumbkopf, because it will be
    instructive to compare the respective value to our employers of my
    Windows-only VB toys and your Windows-only 'whatever' systems.

    You get paid in Euros, correct? The dollar has fallen against the Euro
    significantly over the last two years, such that 1 Euro today buys $1.46,
    but two years ago 1 Euro bought only $1.22 (a change of about

    http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/co...USD&amt=1&t=5y

    That's what I thought.



  19. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    Peter Köhlmann wrote:

    > To make it simpler for twats like you, "icecream" is handling off
    > portions of a compile job to several machines in a "compile cluster",
    > bringing down the total time to compile BIG projects.
    >
    > You know, not the toy one types like your VB thingies


    I'm glad you brought this 'toy' issue up, dumbkopf, because it will be
    instructive to compare the respective value to our employers of my
    proprietary, Windows-only VB toy systems versus your proprietary,
    Windows-only non-toy systems.

    It won't take long. Ready?

    You're paid in Euros; I'm paid in US dollars. Disregarding the steep slide
    of the USD against the EUR over the last 6 months (about 10%), if your
    employer isn't paying you at least EUR 69 per hour they value your software
    development skills less than my employer values mine.

    hmmmm... exactly how much less are your 'non-toy' systems valued than my
    'toy' systems? Is it 20%? 40%? Probably much more, but there's one
    percentage I know for sure: it's 100% guaranteed you'll evade and slink
    away.




  20. Re: Who seriously uses Linux here for serious work?

    DFS wrote:

    > Peter Köhlmann wrote:
    >
    >> To make it simpler for twats like you, "icecream" is handling off
    >> portions of a compile job to several machines in a "compile cluster",
    >> bringing down the total time to compile BIG projects.
    >>
    >> You know, not the toy one types like your VB thingies

    >
    > I'm glad you brought this 'toy' issue up, dumbkopf, because it will be
    > instructive to compare the respective value to our employers of my
    > proprietary, Windows-only VB toy systems versus your proprietary,
    > Windows-only non-toy systems.
    >
    > It won't take long. Ready?
    >
    > You're paid in Euros; I'm paid in US dollars. Disregarding the steep
    > slide of the USD against the EUR over the last 6 months (about 10%), if
    > your employer isn't paying you at least EUR 69 per hour they value your
    > software development skills less than my employer values mine.
    >
    > hmmmm... exactly how much less are your 'non-toy' systems valued than my
    > 'toy' systems? Is it 20%? 40%? Probably much more, but there's one
    > percentage I know for sure: it's 100% guaranteed you'll evade and slink
    > away.


    You mean, I should make up figures out of full cloth as you just did?

    Face it, DumbFull****, whatever you post, it will be a lie. Do you really
    think anybody would believe *you* of all people?
    --
    Warning: 10 days have passed since your last Windows reinstall.


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