Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not addLinux next? Linux is virusware. - Linux

This is a discussion on Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not addLinux next? Linux is virusware. - Linux ; * amicus_curious fired off this tart reply: > "gordon" wrote in message >> >> Most of the time. There are certain vulnerabilities that MS has NEVER >> patched! >> > Nothing of any consequence, though. The real problem is that ...

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Thread: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not addLinux next? Linux is virusware.

  1. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    * amicus_curious fired off this tart reply:

    > "gordon" wrote in message
    >>
    >> Most of the time. There are certain vulnerabilities that MS has NEVER
    >> patched!
    >>

    > Nothing of any consequence, though. The real problem is that users do not
    > apply available fixes and that isn't limited to Windows users.


    Dude, you do realize that a Windows install makes it very easy to set up
    automatic updates?

    I should know, I've come back to my Win 2000 virtual-machine desktop to
    find that "Windows has been restarted to complete your automatic
    update."

    Doh!

    > The Linux
    > patch system is pretty clumsy and ineffective in reaching affected users.


    Yeah, right. Never have used Ubuntu, have you?

    I don't turn on automatic updates on my Debian systems, but I do the
    update operation pretty regularly. It is easy and hell and very
    effective. Even the stable distro will pull down security updates.

    You can easily set up Gentoo to do automatic updates.

    Hey! And no automatic rebooting (doh!) required!

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  2. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add ?Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    * amicus_curious fired off this tart reply:

    >> What exactly is 'clumsy' or 'ineffective' about that?
    >>

    > Start with the fact that I have never heard tell of it. You all will sneer,
    > but I am, in spite of your sneers, reasonably astute in regards to this sort
    > of thing and much more likely to know about it than most people.


    No, you are manifestly *not* astute about Linux-based features.

    > So if I don't know, it is a failure of the community to reach out and
    > educate me and by inference a failure to educate anyone.


    No, it is an indication that you method for debating involves sophistry
    (and other "techniques") where you fail to have the facts at your
    command.

    Just check out the throbbing update icon on your Gnome desktop.

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  3. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add ?Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    * William Poaster fired off this tart reply:

    > thad05@tux.glaci.delete-this.com wrote:
    >
    >> amicus_curious wrote:
    >>>
    >>> (erroneous data that should not be shown, to avoid fooling newbies)
    >>>

    >> What exactly is 'clumsy' or 'ineffective' about that?

    >
    > Nothing at all. It's just Bill Weisgerber doing his shill service for M$.


    It's all about hijacking the searches.

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  4. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add ?Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    * thad05@tux.glaci.delete-this.com fired off this tart reply:

    >> How would they propagate that virus laden kernel?

    >
    > In all my time on the Linux Kernel Mailing List, I've only seen
    > one example of what might have been an attempted maliceous patch.
    > It had a test condition using '=' instead of '==' to always
    > assign a value instead of just examining it, possible privilege
    > escalation being the result. It was rejected rather quickly.
    > I could easily imagine something like it slipping through in
    > a closed source environment where fewer people are reviewing the
    > code.


    Actually, all compilers will warn you about it. That's why it pays to
    make sure your code is warning-free, so that those odd warnings are
    easier to see when they pop up.

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  5. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add ?Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    * Tim Smith fired off this tart reply:

    >> It had a test condition using '=' instead of '==' to always
    >> assign a value instead of just examining it, possible privilege
    >> escalation being the result. It was rejected rather quickly.
    >> I could easily imagine something like it slipping through in
    >> a closed source environment where fewer people are reviewing the
    >> code.

    >
    > That's similar to the hole that was found in X about a year and a half
    > ago that let non-root users run code as root. The bug there was that
    > parenthesis were missing on a call to a function with no args, so
    > instead of calling the function and using the return value in a
    > condition, it was using the address of the function in the condition.


    Hmmm, I'll have to see how gcc and cl (MS's compiler) handle that.

    I'm pretty sure both detect it.

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  6. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add ?Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    * amicus_curious fired off this tart reply:

    > Well by now I am sure the answer is clear to you, but in case you haven't
    > read the other posts, the exploit doesn't have to be in the kernel and the
    > kernel or other file may not have come from Linus himself. It's just a boot
    > CD/DVD, eh, that says its Ubuntu or something and it runs Linux just fine
    > only it has a Trojan buried in there somewhere ready to wake up and smell
    > the coffee.


    What, to exploit a vulnerability in Java.

    (Weak joke, feel free to groan).

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  7. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    * amicus_curious fired off this tart reply:

    > Well, look up above a few lines, my dear Watson,


    (I detect slime.)

    > where it says "How would
    > they propagate that virus laden kernel?" Try to stay with the conversation.


    (More slime.)

    >> your attack listed above works for both open and closed source, and is
    >> not a differentiator between them. Please try again.
    >>

    > It just goes to show that anything that is popular is vulnerable. If Linux
    > ever becomes popular, it will be just as vulnerable as Windows. It is safe
    > so far, but there is no absolute guarantee that won't happen someday.


    Maybe Vista will change things, but right now Microsoft has too many
    external hooks into the operating system floating out there, and too
    many users running as root.

    That, in spite of a Microsoft community that should know better.

    Now, Linux is somewhat more free of the first danger, since much of the
    user's time is spent in user space, not system space.

    As for the second danger, yes, there will be some stupid users out
    there. Sudo mitigates that possibility quite a bit. Another mitigation
    is the community itself, I think.

    I do agree with you (and disagree with Peter) that it would be fairly
    easy to provide a distro where a lot of user-space apps (apart from
    relatively harmless ones involving CD burning and other hardware access)
    are setuid root, and hence dangerous.

    However, word about that distro would spread like wildfire. A few
    people would get caught by it, but not nearly as many as get caught by
    the complacent attitude promulgated by current (pre-Vista) Microsoft
    policies.

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  8. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    * amicus_curious fired off this tart reply:

    >> Seriously though, the risk of that sort of thing is vanishingly
    >> small, and your risks are still much higher with closed source
    >> code if only because non malicious bugs are more likely to
    >> slip through. That whole many eyes thing you know...
    >>

    > How many are actually looking?


    Every distro maker, for one.

    Every party who has an open-source project out on the web, or who is
    deeply interested in a particular open-source project, for others.

    True, **** could happen. But in this connected world, word of it would
    spread like wild-fire.

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  9. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    * Gregory Shearman fired off this tart reply:

    > amicus_curious wrote:
    >
    >> If I were the mythical Microsoft evil genius bent on embarassing, say,
    >> Ubuntu, I could arrange to produce and casually distribute a lot of DVDs
    >> that looked like the real thing but were not. *Consider all the people
    >> here who talk of handing out these LiveCDs to influence Window users to
    >> switch. Do you know where that DVD has been?

    >
    > That's why such things as MD5 were invented.


    Checksums are no panacea. You'd have to find the checksums for the
    package in many places, hope they were all compiled with the same
    settings and same library versions, and then find that they all matched.
    The odd-man-out would then be suspect.

    Checksums are more for making sure that the download didn't get borked.
    They say nothing about went on before they were generated.

    In any case, amicus is exaggerating the probabilities, I think. My bet
    would be that the open-source community is both larger and more
    proactive than the Microsoft community. Definitely, right now, the
    percentage of savvy open-sources is much much greater than the
    percentage of savvy Windows users.

    Perhaps we have to be careful about dumbing-down the community in the
    same way Microsoft has dumbed-down its community.

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  10. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add ?Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    Linonut wrote:

    > * Tim Smith fired off this tart reply:
    >
    >>> It had a test condition using '=' instead of '==' to always
    >>> assign a value instead of just examining it, possible privilege
    >>> escalation being the result. It was rejected rather quickly.
    >>> I could easily imagine something like it slipping through in
    >>> a closed source environment where fewer people are reviewing the
    >>> code.

    >>
    >> That's similar to the hole that was found in X about a year and a half
    >> ago that let non-root users run code as root. The bug there was that
    >> parenthesis were missing on a call to a function with no args, so
    >> instead of calling the function and using the return value in a
    >> condition, it was using the address of the function in the condition.

    >
    > Hmmm, I'll have to see how gcc and cl (MS's compiler) handle that.
    >
    > I'm pretty sure both detect it.
    >


    Unless you have switched off all warnings there should be one
    I have made it standing procedure that *no* compiler warnings are to be
    neglected.
    --
    Twenty Percent of Zero is Better than Nothing.
    -- Walt Kelly


  11. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 12:16:18 +0000,
    Mark Kent wrote:
    > Jim Richardson espoused:
    >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    >> Hash: SHA1
    >>
    >> On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 21:36:59 -0500,
    >> amicus_curious wrote:
    >>>
    >>> "Jim Richardson" wrote in message
    >>> news:j90355-vec.ln1@dragon.myth...
    >>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    >>>> Hash: SHA1
    >>>>
    >>>> On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 18:37:50 -0500,
    >>>> amicus_curious wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> "Peter Köhlmann" wrote in message
    >>>>> news:flm28o$hh$00$3@news.t-online.com...
    >>>>>> amicus_curious wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> "Rick" wrote in message
    >>>>>>> news:13nsriingnqjk3e@news.supernews.com...
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> < snip billwg idiocy >
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Further, since
    >>>>>>>>> Linux OS kernel is open-source, a hacker can disquise the virus to
    >>>>>>>>> become an integral part of the OS--and no virus checker (not that
    >>>>>>>>> Linux
    >>>>>>>>> has any virus checkers, that's how primitive it is) can spot it.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> How would they propagate that virus laden kernel?
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> New versions are coming out lickety-split and patches are frequent.
    >>>>>>> Hide
    >>>>>>> it in there and after a short while everyone will have it.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> So knowledge how linux kernels are distributed / maintained is another
    >>>>>> thing
    >>>>>> you know absolutely nothing about
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> What a surprise...
    >>>>>> --
    >>>>> .Oh I bet I could go to the next Linux fair or whatever and hand out
    >>>>> thousands of DVDs that looked just like some popular distro and they
    >>>>> would
    >>>>> go into service immediately. Ever been to a trade show?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> And it wouldn't even have to be the kernel, of course, just any utility
    >>>>> likely to be used eventually. You twits only think you are safe.
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> and this has what to do with open source? since that was the discussion
    >>>> in hand.
    >>>>
    >>> Well, look up above a few lines, my dear Watson, where it says "How would
    >>> they propagate that virus laden kernel?" Try to stay with the conversation.
    >>>
    >>>> your attack listed above works for both open and closed source, and is
    >>>> not a differentiator between them. Please try again.
    >>>>
    >>> It just goes to show that anything that is popular is vulnerable. If Linux
    >>> ever becomes popular, it will be just as vulnerable as Windows. It is safe
    >>> so far, but there is no absolute guarantee that won't happen someday.
    >>>

    >>
    >> false logic. A cardboard box is not as secure as a safe, and it isn't
    >> because the cardboard box is more common.
    >>
    >> MS made certain design decisions that still affect security in a
    >> negative way today. including conflating open and execute. This has been
    >> discussed here and elsewhere endlessly, yet there's always someone who
    >> wants to make the false claims you do.
    >>

    >
    > Considering that open-source software has been the dominant net server
    > software for several years, clearly the argument is bunkum.
    >


    yep, and yet,people like ac make it, why? because they are either not
    thinking their own argument through, or they are lying.

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    --
    Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
    Words fail me. Thank goodness I can make gestures.
    -- Mark Hughes (in asr - 2001

  12. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add ?Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    * Peter Köhlmann fired off this tart reply:

    > Linonut wrote:
    >
    >> Hmmm, I'll have to see how gcc and cl (MS's compiler) handle that.
    >>
    >> I'm pretty sure both detect it.

    >
    > Unless you have switched off all warnings there should be one
    > I have made it standing procedure that *no* compiler warnings are to be
    > neglected.


    Me too. I use /W4 in cl, and -Wall -pedantic in gcc.

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  13. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add Linux next? Linux is virusware.


    "Jim Richardson" wrote in message
    news:fe8455-1mk.ln1@dragon.myth...
    ..>>>
    >> It just goes to show that anything that is popular is vulnerable. If
    >> Linux
    >> ever becomes popular, it will be just as vulnerable as Windows. It is
    >> safe
    >> so far, but there is no absolute guarantee that won't happen someday.
    >>

    >
    > false logic. A cardboard box is not as secure as a safe, and it isn't
    > because the cardboard box is more common.
    >

    I would imagine that your SAT verbal score was below par. You create a
    false analogy, nothing to do with logic. In your mistaken sense, both Linux
    and Windows are cardboard boxes and Windows is the far more common one.

    > MS made certain design decisions that still affect security in a
    > negative way today. including conflating open and execute. This has been
    > discussed here and elsewhere endlessly, yet there's always someone who
    > wants to make the false claims you do.
    >

    Vista cures all that remains of that problem, of course, and that is only
    one attack method in any case. Linux is vulnerable to all others.


  14. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add Linux next? Linux is virusware.


    "Jim Richardson" wrote in message
    news:ncu455-jha.ln1@dragon.myth...
    >>
    >> Considering that open-source software has been the dominant net server
    >> software for several years, clearly the argument is bunkum.
    >>

    >
    > yep, and yet,people like ac make it, why? because they are either not
    > thinking their own argument through, or they are lying.
    >

    I would rather think that Linux has been a domninat net server for quite
    some time due to its wholesale replacement of Unix in that role and its cost
    advantages in an environment where the system user cannot see any
    differences between it and more expensive methods. Linux role here is being
    challenged, though, and Microsoft is has closed the gap quite a bit in the
    past few years with Win2K3 Webserver edition. The latest announcements
    regarding Win2K8 pricing have made many analysts think that Linux/Apache/etc
    is in for some more rough weather and will shortly see Windows pass LAMP in
    the installed population.

    http://news.netcraft.com/archives/20...er_survey.html



  15. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add ?Linux next? Linux is virusware.


    wrote in message
    news:sh2455-v69.ln1@ridcully.ntlworld.com...
    >
    > It's up to you to educate YOURSELF you idiot.
    >

    Which I think is a very typical attitude on the part of the OSS proponents
    and the key to their continued failure.


  16. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add Linux next? Linux is virusware.


    "chrisv" wrote in message
    news:H6qdnXKQGbCGNuLanZ2dnUVZ_sHinZ2d@giganews.com ...
    > rat wrote:
    >
    >> "chrisv" wrote:
    >>>
    >>> rat wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> (snip ignorant bull****)
    >>>
    >>> You're an ignorant, lying fsckwit, rat.
    >>>

    >> And you are a zero or even negative

    >
    > Why? Because I'm "mean" to liars and assholes? I don't think there's
    > anything wrong with that.
    >

    No, because you have never contributed a single interesting comment to any
    discussion ever.


  17. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 16:25:20 -0500,
    amicus_curious wrote:
    >
    > "Jim Richardson" wrote in message
    > news:ncu455-jha.ln1@dragon.myth...
    >>>
    >>> Considering that open-source software has been the dominant net server
    >>> software for several years, clearly the argument is bunkum.
    >>>

    >>
    >> yep, and yet,people like ac make it, why? because they are either not
    >> thinking their own argument through, or they are lying.
    >>

    > I would rather think that Linux has been a domninat net server for quite
    > some time due to its wholesale replacement of Unix in that role and its cost
    > advantages in an environment where the system user cannot see any
    > differences between it and more expensive methods. Linux role here is being
    > challenged, though, and Microsoft is has closed the gap quite a bit in the
    > past few years with Win2K3 Webserver edition. The latest announcements
    > regarding Win2K8 pricing have made many analysts think that Linux/Apache/etc
    > is in for some more rough weather and will shortly see Windows pass LAMP in
    > the installed population.
    >


    thus blowing you "Windows is more popular, that's why it's exploited
    more" theory into smithereens.


    Nice self nuke. Glad to see you've realized the fallacy of your claim.

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    --
    Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
    Televangelists: The Pro Wrestlers of Religion

  18. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 16:13:09 -0500,
    amicus_curious wrote:
    >
    > "Jim Richardson" wrote in message
    > news:fe8455-1mk.ln1@dragon.myth...
    > .>>>
    >>> It just goes to show that anything that is popular is vulnerable. If
    >>> Linux
    >>> ever becomes popular, it will be just as vulnerable as Windows. It is
    >>> safe
    >>> so far, but there is no absolute guarantee that won't happen someday.
    >>>

    >>
    >> false logic. A cardboard box is not as secure as a safe, and it isn't
    >> because the cardboard box is more common.
    >>

    > I would imagine that your SAT verbal score was below par. You create a
    > false analogy, nothing to do with logic. In your mistaken sense, both Linux
    > and Windows are cardboard boxes and Windows is the far more common one.
    >


    you claim that the only reason Linux has fewer vulnerabilities, is
    because it is less common on the desktop. Which is silly, since it's far
    more common on the server, and still has fewer vulnerabilities.

    >> MS made certain design decisions that still affect security in a
    >> negative way today. including conflating open and execute. This has been
    >> discussed here and elsewhere endlessly, yet there's always someone who
    >> wants to make the false claims you do.
    >>

    > Vista cures all that remains of that problem, of course, and that is only
    > one attack method in any case. Linux is vulnerable to all others.
    >


    No, vista doesn't cure it, vista masks it, somewhat.


    What Linux vulnerabilities do you mean? In the context of design flaws.
    Give examples please.


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    --
    Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
    What this world needs is a good five-dollar plasma weapon.

  19. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add ?Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    amicus_curious did eloquently scribble:

    > wrote in message
    > news:sh2455-v69.ln1@ridcully.ntlworld.com...
    >>
    >> It's up to you to educate YOURSELF you idiot.
    >>

    > Which I think is a very typical attitude on the part of the OSS proponents
    > and the key to their continued failure.


    You want someone to educate you...
    sign up for a course

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  20. Re: Microsoft Office blocks certain files as virus sources--why not add Linux next? Linux is virusware.

    amicus_curious did eloquently scribble:
    > "chrisv" wrote in message
    > news:H6qdnXKQGbCGNuLanZ2dnUVZ_sHinZ2d@giganews.com ...
    >> rat wrote:
    >>
    >>> "chrisv" wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> rat wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> (snip ignorant bull****)
    >>>>
    >>>> You're an ignorant, lying fsckwit, rat.
    >>>>
    >>> And you are a zero or even negative

    >>
    >> Why? Because I'm "mean" to liars and assholes? I don't think there's
    >> anything wrong with that.
    >>

    > No, because you have never contributed a single interesting comment to any
    > discussion ever.


    And you have?
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