[Opinion] How annoyed am I at Microsoft? Let me count the ways...

A rant, indeed a rant.

[1] Microsoft Windows Visual Studio 2008. I'll give
it points for working, and they have improved the GUI
in spots (the list of libraries can now be edited as an
actual *list*, for starters). Unfortunately it wants to
convert old format project files and has no backwards
compatibility mode for project files. MAKE files do
not have this problem. Not sure regarding GTK/Glade or
Kdevelop but suspect they're better off in this area, too.

[2] VS2008 has the bad habit of specifying paths with
respect to its destination, as opposed to VS2005 which
specified them with respect to the source. This meant that
I had to manually retype in paths often. I'll admit to
some curiosity as to how to properly handle the multihost
compilation and cross-compilation problems, but at least
with a Makefile one has a fighting chance.

[3] The compiler for 2005 allowed constructs such as

for(int i = 0; i < 10; i++)
{ ... }
printf("%d\n", i);

and

std::vector<SomeLocalClass *>::iterator it = NULL;

to compile.

The former has since been removed (the variable 'i' is
local to the for loop now); the latter used to work as
the iterator was a pointer; however, now it's a class.

Blech. Not sure if g++ was much better in this regard,
admittedly. I think I can get by without fixing this
by reinstalling 2005. Yeah, there's a great option. :-P

[4] The defragmenter is very weird today; the report says
"no files were unable to defragment" but the display
clearly shows a red band, indicating that there's one
file that has too many fragments. Also, the defragmenter
defragmented the files but still left the free space rather
fragmented. I'm going to try to rerun the defragmenter
after creating a 2 GiB file (I'm running it without a paging
file at the moment). Of course this will tip it over into
the below-15% area, which it doesn't like.

At this point, the best I can do is create 256Mi chunks and
let it play with those; at least that way I can guarantee
the chunks are clear.

A plus: it will create the paging file without a reboot.

A minus: it's in a weird spot: Control Panel, Change a
Setting, Performance and Maintenance (OK so far, actually),
System (as if I'm setting things for someone else's
system??), Advanced, Performance (what, again?), Advanced
(again again??), Virtual Memory at the bottom. One can
specify Custom Size (I would recommend a fixed size),
system managed size (oh, hello pagefile fragmentation),
or no paging file (which the system apparently does honor
now -- but one needs to reboot).

Not sure if Linux has -- or needs -- an analogue to this
weirdness. Those "in the know" can do

dd if=/dev/zero of=/var/tmp/scratch_space bs=1048576 count=size
mkswap /var/tmp/scratch_space
swapon /var/tmp/scratch_space

where size is in megabytes. To remove this,

swapoff /var/tmp/scratch_space
rm /var/tmp/scratch_space

Note that scratch_space must be on a local drive.

Those not in the know probably should just let the
installer create the default -- about 2x one's RAM --
as opposed to allowing for auto-extension, fragmentation,
system malfunctions, and other such stupidity which is a
little too common on Windows.

[5] VS2005 and VS2008 like to copy files into a temp area,
then extract them to the final location. This tends to use
more space than it really needs to. To be fair, the other
method of direct extraction into the destination probably
gives Windows some interesting headaches. (Linux doesn't
care too much as long as the package is guaranteed new.)

Yep, Windows is indeed state of the art. Can we shoot it
now or wait until the end of the election? :-P

--
#191, [email]ewill3@earthlink.net[/email] -- insert random irritations here
Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #992381111:
while(bit&BITMASK) ;

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from [url]http://www.teranews.com[/url]

"The Ghost In The Machine" <ewill@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote in message
news:ijpv45-rk9.ln1@sirius.tg00suus7038.net...[color=blue]
>A rant, indeed a rant.
>[/color]

Yet another COLA bozo who makes his living writing proprietary Microsoft
software but then complains how evil Windows is.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from [url]http://www.teranews.com[/url]

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Dusty Hendrix
<drix@freemail.com>
wrote
on Thu, 3 Jan 2008 14:44:09 -0500
<477d2f54$0$26043$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>:[color=blue]
>
> "The Ghost In The Machine" <ewill@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote in message
> news:ijpv45-rk9.ln1@sirius.tg00suus7038.net...[color=green]
>>A rant, indeed a rant.
>>[/color]
>
> Yet another COLA bozo who makes his living writing proprietary Microsoft
> software but then complains how evil Windows is.
>[/color]

OK, so you're on record as not liking alternatives, then?

Good.

Let me know when Microsoft puts Symbian out of business.
Last I heard Symbian has about 70% of the mobile OS market.

I'll give credit to Microsoft for advancing the home
game console market with their XBox but their Zune has
been less than spectacular, and the Orange Phone was the
butt of jokes for awhile. Nevertheless, the preferred
direction obviously is ensuring that we have one OS vendor,
everywhere, indivisible, with Windows and Office for all.

Simplifies things enormously for everyone. (FSVO "everyone".)

Better tell Apple Computer as well. They really need to
modernize their MacOSX; it's so crappy it doesn't even
run on standard PC hardware (it can run on EFI, though,
and presumably that's where the PC is going) and has such
capabilities as emulating Windows and Unix, plus 99 cents
per song.

And of course there's other pieces of equipment, such
as the Amiga, which are fondly remembered and may be
resurrected in some form.

Can't have that; that just doesn't make sense from a
business standpoint.

Microsoft. Where did you want to go today?

--
#191, [email]ewill3@earthlink.net[/email]
New Technology? Not There. No Thanks.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from [url]http://www.teranews.com[/url]

* Dusty Hendrix fired off this tart reply:
[color=blue]
> "The Ghost In The Machine" <ewill@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote in message
> news:ijpv45-rk9.ln1@sirius.tg00suus7038.net...[color=green]
>>A rant, indeed a rant.[/color]
>
> Yet another COLA bozo who makes his living writing proprietary Microsoft
> software but then complains how evil Windows is.[/color]

You've posted the last bit of horse-ass stupidity I'll be seeing.

Idiot.

--
Dusty has expired. Please reactivate Dusty by paying $0.25
and entering the 30-character activation key that will be emailed to
your account.

* The Ghost In The Machine fired off this tart reply:
[color=blue]
> A rant, indeed a rant.
>
> Unfortunately it wants to
> convert old format project files and has no backwards
> compatibility mode for project files.[/color]

Of course. They want to nudge everyone on to the new version.
[color=blue]
> [2] VS2008 has the bad habit of specifying paths with
> respect to its destination, as opposed to VS2005 which
> specified them with respect to the source. This meant that
> I had to manually retype in paths often.[/color]

Wow, so MS finally borked that nice feature!
[color=blue]
> [3] The compiler for 2005 allowed constructs such as
>
> for(int i = 0; i < 10; i++)
> { ... }
> printf("%d\n", i);
>
> and
>
> std::vector<SomeLocalClass *>::iterator it = NULL;
>
> to compile.[/color]

Wow, that's a regression from our 2002 version, I think.

--
This sig has expired. Please reactivate your sig by paying $0.25
and entering the 30-character activation key that will be emailed to
your account.

____/ The Ghost In The Machine on Thursday 03 January 2008 19:28 : \____
[color=blue]
> Yep, Windows is indeed state of the art. Â*Can we shoot it
> now or wait until the end of the election? Â*:-P[/color]

Windows defines the 'art'. Seriously now, the main issue is that when something
becomes consistent enough (even buggy behaviour relating to leap years), it is
perceived as a necessary evil, a standard, or a norm. Some of the things you
mention above are not seen as odd given consistency. The thought of PCs
running for years without a reboot seems alien to most people. Elegant
XML-structured files (as opposed to tree with hexadecimals or even
binaries) --- likewise.

--
~~ Best of wishes

Roy S. Schestowitz | Useless fact: 21978 x 4 = 21978 backwards
[url]http://Schestowitz.com[/url] | RHAT Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
03:05:02 up 24 days, 15:53, 4 users, load average: 0.81, 1.33, 1.84
[url]http://iuron.com[/url] - Open Source knowledge engine project

____/ The Ghost In The Machine on Thursday 03 January 2008 21:28 : \____
[color=blue]
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Dusty Hendrix
> <drix@freemail.com>
> wrote
> on Thu, 3 Jan 2008 14:44:09 -0500
> <477d2f54$0$26043$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>:[color=green]
>>
>> "The Ghost In The Machine" <ewill@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote in message
>> news:ijpv45-rk9.ln1@sirius.tg00suus7038.net...[color=darkred]
>>>A rant, indeed a rant.
>>>[/color]
>>
>> Yet another COLA bozo who makes his living writing proprietary Microsoft
>> software but then complains how evil Windows is.
>>[/color]
>
> OK, so you're on record as not liking alternatives, then?
>
> Good.
>
> Let me know when Microsoft puts Symbian out of business.
> Last I heard Symbian has about 70% of the mobile OS market.[/color]

That is correct. Microsoft is good at PR, so it was successful at pretending
that desktop PCs /WERE/ the computer. Should it not matter that there are
several billions of smart phones (miniature PCs) out there? Microsoft is
very,very good at PR (poker face). It manages to convinced people that only an
O/S (even for phones) with "Shutdown" under some "Start" menu at the
bottom-left corner of the display is the 'standard'-- the only standard which
is 'user friendly' (read: like Windows). But guess what? After about 10 years
in the field and huge spending (losses too, which they hid by combining
divisions), Microsoft has only 6% market share in this area.
[color=blue]
> I'll give credit to Microsoft for advancing the home
> game console market with their XBox but their Zune has
> been less than spectacular, and the Orange Phone was the
> butt of jokes for awhile. Nevertheless, the preferred
> direction obviously is ensuring that we have one OS vendor,
> everywhere, indivisible, with Windows and Office for all.
>
> Simplifies things enormously for everyone. (FSVO "everyone".)
>
> Better tell Apple Computer as well. They really need to
> modernize their MacOSX; it's so crappy it doesn't even
> run on standard PC hardware (it can run on EFI, though,
> and presumably that's where the PC is going) and has such
> capabilities as emulating Windows and Unix, plus 99 cents
> per song.
>
> And of course there's other pieces of equipment, such
> as the Amiga, which are fondly remembered and may be
> resurrected in some form.
>
> Can't have that; that just doesn't make sense from a
> business standpoint.
>
> Microsoft. Where did you want to go today?[/color]

Anywhere which is warmer. Dcottt Douglas lives in Canada and I think that the
cold weather prevents blood from reaching all of his brain cells.

--
~~ Best of wishes

Roy S. Schestowitz | "I feed my 3 penguins with electricity and love"
[url]http://Schestowitz.com[/url] | RHAT Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
04:05:01 up 24 days, 16:53, 4 users, load average: 0.79, 1.18, 1.30
[url]http://iuron.com[/url] - Open Source knowledge engine project

[snips]

On Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:28:18 -0800, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
[color=blue]
> [3] The compiler for 2005 allowed constructs such as
>
> for(int i = 0; i < 10; i++)
> { ... }
> printf("%d\n", i);[/color]

Err... the *2005* version allowed this code? Shoulda burned the damn
thing, then; there's no excuse for that sort of slop. At the point of
the printf, i simply does not exist (unless it's in a visible scope from
elsewhere).

Their old - VC6 era - compilers allowed this sort of nonsense, but at
least those ones had the vague excuse of being (initially) pre-standard.

On 2008-01-04, Kelsey Bjarnason <kbjarnason@gmail.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> [snips]
>
> On Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:28:18 -0800, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
>[color=green]
>> [3] The compiler for 2005 allowed constructs such as
>>
>> for(int i = 0; i < 10; i++)
>> { ... }
>> printf("%d\n", i);[/color]
>
> Err... the *2005* version allowed this code? Shoulda burned the damn
> thing, then; there's no excuse for that sort of slop. At the point of
> the printf, i simply does not exist (unless it's in a visible scope from
> elsewhere).
>
> Their old - VC6 era - compilers allowed this sort of nonsense, but at
> least those ones had the vague excuse of being (initially) pre-standard.
>[/color]

That doesn't work for me in 2005. I just get:

error C2056: "i" : undeclared identifer

If you right click on the solution, and select properties, then select
C/C++, Language there is an option: Force Conformance In For Loop Scope

If this value is set to no, then the above will compile. But, the
default is Yes at least for new projects... I haven't converted any
older projects, so it is possible that the conversion wizard will set
this to no for compatability....

--
Tom Shelton

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Linonut
<linonut@bollsouth.nut>
wrote
on Thu, 3 Jan 2008 20:47:58 -0500
<S8gfj.64548$L%6.19658@bignews3.bellsouth.net>:[color=blue]
> * The Ghost In The Machine fired off this tart reply:
>[color=green]
>> A rant, indeed a rant.
>>
>> Unfortunately it wants to
>> convert old format project files and has no backwards
>> compatibility mode for project files.[/color]
>
> Of course. They want to nudge everyone on to the new version.[/color]

Not such a bad thing, though one hopes the nudge doesn't
push anyone off the cliff.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> [2] VS2008 has the bad habit of specifying paths with
>> respect to its destination, as opposed to VS2005 which
>> specified them with respect to the source. This meant that
>> I had to manually retype in paths often.[/color]
>
> Wow, so MS finally borked that nice feature![/color]

They certainly screwed it up somehow. Granted, this is
someone else's project so they might have borked it when
people moved around directories to begin with.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> [3] The compiler for 2005 allowed constructs such as
>>
>> for(int i = 0; i < 10; i++)
>> { ... }
>> printf("%d\n", i);
>>
>> and
>>
>> std::vector<SomeLocalClass *>::iterator it = NULL;
>>
>> to compile.[/color]
>
> Wow, that's a regression from our 2002 version, I think.
>[/color]

I'll admit to wondering when g++ allowed these constructs;
I'm old enough to remember this = (SomeClass*) malloc()
in the constructor in a now very old cfront. :-)

I'll have to investigate this.

--
#191, [email]ewill3@earthlink.net[/email]
Windows. Multi-platform(1), multi-tasking(1), multi-user(1).
(1) if one defines "multi" as "exactly one".

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from [url]http://www.teranews.com[/url]

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Kelsey Bjarnason
<kbjarnason@gmail.com>
wrote
on Fri, 04 Jan 2008 06:55:02 GMT
<5q1155-2i5.ln1@spanky.localhost.net>:[color=blue]
> [snips]
>
> On Thu, 03 Jan 2008 11:28:18 -0800, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
>[color=green]
>> [3] The compiler for 2005 allowed constructs such as
>>
>> for(int i = 0; i < 10; i++)
>> { ... }
>> printf("%d\n", i);[/color]
>
> Err... the *2005* version allowed this code? Shoulda burned the damn
> thing, then; there's no excuse for that sort of slop. At the point of
> the printf, i simply does not exist (unless it's in a visible scope from
> elsewhere).
>
> Their old - VC6 era - compilers allowed this sort of nonsense, but at
> least those ones had the vague excuse of being (initially) pre-standard.
>[/color]

It's possible that I'm misconstruing, and that this project I'm trying
to retrofit is actually a V6 variant.

--
#191, [email]ewill3@earthlink.net[/email]
Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #11823822:
signal(SIGKILL, catchkill);

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from [url]http://www.teranews.com[/url]

Roy Schestowitz wrote:[color=blue]
> The Ghost In The Machine on Thursday:[color=green]
>> Dusty Hendrix wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> "The Ghost In The Machine" wrote...
>>>
>>>> A rant, indeed a rant.
>>>
>>> Yet another COLA bozo who makes his living writing
>>> proprietary Microsoft software but then complains how evil
>>> Windows is.[/color]
>>
>> OK, so you're on record as not liking alternatives, then?
>>
>> Good.
>>
>> Let me know when Microsoft puts Symbian out of business.
>> Last I heard Symbian has about 70% of the mobile OS market.[/color]
>
> That is correct. Microsoft is good at PR, so it was successful
> at pretending that desktop PCs /WERE/ the computer. Should it
> not matter that there are several billions of smart phones
> (miniature PCs) out there? Microsoft is very,very good at PR
> (poker face). It manages to convinced people that only an O/S
> (even for phones) with "Shutdown" under some "Start" menu at
> the bottom-left corner of the display is the 'standard'-- the
> only standard which is 'user friendly' (read: like Windows).
> But guess what? After about 10 years in the field and huge
> spending (losses too, which they hid by combining divisions),
> Microsoft has only 6% market share in this area.[/color]

Future is in virtualisation and thin clients. It is easier to
manage a handful of "terminal servers" serving thin clients
instead of a slew of thick clients.

In April last year, Microsoft did an "about face" and now is
working to support thin clients, albeit at roughly twice the cost
of their thick client licenses. They are not yet supporting per
user license. (One has 1,000 machines but only 500 users must
pay 1,000 licenses, not 500.)

There are merits in this as the servers maintain the software, an
upgrade to a server upgrades all thin clients. Also having
software managed at server level has better control over viruses,
trojans, root kits, etc. Server can't be back doored or
"bypassed" through an infected thick client, since thin client is
essentially a terminal. Backups are simplified since they are
done as server level. It is inherently easier to backup user files.

This is where Linux shines. With Linux running an alternative to
Windows API's to run software applications negates the need for
the Windows operating system. Vista is the best thing that ever
happened to Linux.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Microsoft. Where did you want to go today?[/color][/color]

I still remember Corel Linux showing, "Where do you want to go
tomorrow?" when mouse was hovered over the "Start" button. :-)
[color=blue]
> Anywhere which is warmer. Scottt Douglas lives in Canada and I
> think that the cold weather prevents blood from reaching all
> of his brain cells.[/color]

As Microsoft and some major software houses with heavy Microsoft
ties will not want "food taken off their plate" (AKA maintain the
monopoly), the FUD campaigns against Linux and other alternative
operating systems will continue.

Best form of freedom is for people to simply try Linux and other
FOSS software out, judge for themselves.

--
HPT

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, High Plains Thumper
<highplainsthumper@invalid.invalid>
wrote
on Fri, 04 Jan 2008 08:40:45 -0700
<fllk20$q62$1@registered.motzarella.org>:[color=blue]
> Roy Schestowitz wrote:[color=green]
>> The Ghost In The Machine on Thursday:[color=darkred]
>>> Dusty Hendrix wrote:
>>>> "The Ghost In The Machine" wrote...
>>>>
>>>>> A rant, indeed a rant.
>>>>
>>>> Yet another COLA bozo who makes his living writing
>>>> proprietary Microsoft software but then complains how evil
>>>> Windows is.
>>>
>>> OK, so you're on record as not liking alternatives, then?
>>>
>>> Good.
>>>
>>> Let me know when Microsoft puts Symbian out of business.
>>> Last I heard Symbian has about 70% of the mobile OS market.[/color]
>>
>> That is correct. Microsoft is good at PR, so it was successful
>> at pretending that desktop PCs /WERE/ the computer. Should it
>> not matter that there are several billions of smart phones
>> (miniature PCs) out there? Microsoft is very,very good at PR
>> (poker face). It manages to convinced people that only an O/S
>> (even for phones) with "Shutdown" under some "Start" menu at
>> the bottom-left corner of the display is the 'standard'-- the
>> only standard which is 'user friendly' (read: like Windows).
>> But guess what? After about 10 years in the field and huge
>> spending (losses too, which they hid by combining divisions),
>> Microsoft has only 6% market share in this area.[/color]
>
> Future is in virtualisation and thin clients. It is easier to
> manage a handful of "terminal servers" serving thin clients
> instead of a slew of thick clients.[/color]

How "thin" is thin here? I see a multilayer problem, and
the Web brower is getting extremely fat -- to the point
of becoming a development environment itself (Javascript
can do Erastothene's Sieve without much difficulty,
for example). Contrast this to dumb glass tube terminals
which might have have to make a decision on where to put
the cursor based on 8-bit codes, but that's about it.

X terminals are somewhere in the middle and are very
rare nowadays. Nowadays it's cheaper to get a new or used
Laptop and slap Linux on it running an X server and using
SSH tunnelling.
[color=blue]
>
> In April last year, Microsoft did an "about face" and now is
> working to support thin clients, albeit at roughly twice the cost
> of their thick client licenses. They are not yet supporting per
> user license. (One has 1,000 machines but only 500 users must
> pay 1,000 licenses, not 500.)[/color]

Gosh, how nice of them to overcharge us! :-P Of course
part of the problem with a "thin" client is authenticating
that client; think of a laptop on a corporate network,
for example. Best I can do there is put something in .ssh
and that would allow login to a server; the server can
also use HTTP for session authentication if the laptop
has a web browser (even Dillo can handle cookies).

My previous employer had exactly this problem, as they used
X Windows to draw their stuff -- and X has an inherent
remoting capability, which can be exacerbated by various
proxies to allow more than 1 user to share a window or
desktop (the most obvious one nowadays is VNC).
[color=blue]
>
> There are merits in this as the servers maintain the software, an
> upgrade to a server upgrades all thin clients.[/color]

Actually, it doesn't ... but never mind; I'm being
pedantic. Suffice it to say that the thin clients do
not need to upgrade nearly as often as the servers since
the thin client protocol is relatively simple, and that
lessens IT work. Of course upgrading the server allows
the thin clients to access the new version -- transparently.

No doubt that's what you meant, and it can be a *big* advantage.
[color=blue]
> Also having
> software managed at server level has better control over viruses,
> trojans, root kits, etc. Server can't be back doored or
> "bypassed" through an infected thick client, since thin client is
> essentially a terminal. Backups are simplified since they are
> done as server level. It is inherently easier to backup user files.
>
> This is where Linux shines. With Linux running an alternative to
> Windows API's to run software applications negates the need for
> the Windows operating system. Vista is the best thing that ever
> happened to Linux.[/color]

And the worst thing to happen to Microsoft. :-)
[color=blue]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> Microsoft. Where did you want to go today?[/color][/color]
>
> I still remember Corel Linux showing, "Where do you want to go
> tomorrow?" when mouse was hovered over the "Start" button. :-)[/color]

Heh. Can't say I remember that, but that's because I've not
used that distro.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> Anywhere which is warmer. Scottt Douglas lives in Canada and I
>> think that the cold weather prevents blood from reaching all
>> of his brain cells.[/color]
>
> As Microsoft and some major software houses with heavy Microsoft
> ties will not want "food taken off their plate" (AKA maintain the
> monopoly), the FUD campaigns against Linux and other alternative
> operating systems will continue.
>
> Best form of freedom is for people to simply try Linux and other
> FOSS software out, judge for themselves.
>[/color]

If they're aware of it. At least the "buzz" is still
around Linux, and if Microsoft denigrates Linux in their
ads, it is also *mentioning* Linux -- a double-edged sword.

--
#191, [email]ewill3@earthlink.net[/email]
Error 16: Not enough space on file system to delete file(s)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from [url]http://www.teranews.com[/url]

The Ghost In The Machine wrote:[color=blue]
> High Plains Thumper wrote:[color=green]
>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> That is correct. Microsoft is good at PR, so it was
>>> successful at pretending that desktop PCs /WERE/ the
>>> computer. Should it not matter that there are several
>>> billions of smart phones (miniature PCs) out there?
>>> Microsoft is very,very good at PR (poker face). It manages
>>> to convinced people that only an O/S (even for phones)
>>> with "Shutdown" under some "Start" menu at the bottom-left
>>> corner of the display is the 'standard'-- the only
>>> standard which is 'user friendly' (read: like Windows).
>>> But guess what? After about 10 years in the field and huge
>>> spending (losses too, which they hid by combining
>>> divisions), Microsoft has only 6% market share in this
>>> area.[/color]
>>
>> Future is in virtualisation and thin clients. It is easier
>> to manage a handful of "terminal servers" serving thin
>> clients instead of a slew of thick clients.[/color]
>
> How "thin" is thin here? I see a multilayer problem, and the
> Web brower is getting extremely fat -- to the point of
> becoming a development environment itself (Javascript can do
> Erastothene's Sieve without much difficulty, for example).
> Contrast this to dumb glass tube terminals which might have
> have to make a decision on where to put the cursor based on
> 8-bit codes, but that's about it.[/color]

If we are talking about weight, then I guess I am a fat client. :-)

You are talking about dumb terminals like DEC VT100, VT220,
Concurrent PE6312, Tektronix 4312, etc., which we back some 20
years ago called "smart terminals".

Now we are getting into flavours of virtualisation. That is
where diligent IT planning and purchase comes into play.
[color=blue]
> X terminals are somewhere in the middle and are very rare
> nowadays. Nowadays it's cheaper to get a new or used Laptop
> and slap Linux on it running an X server and using SSH
> tunnelling.[/color]

True. Haven't tested as of late but a while back had X on a 100
MHz 486, ran fine.
[color=blue][color=green]
>> In April last year, Microsoft did an "about face" and now is
>> working to support thin clients, albeit at roughly twice
>> the cost of their thick client licenses. They are not yet
>> supporting per user license. (One has 1,000 machines but
>> only 500 users must pay 1,000 licenses, not 500.)[/color]
>
> Gosh, how nice of them to overcharge us! :-P Of course part
> of the problem with a "thin" client is authenticating that
> client; think of a laptop on a corporate network, for example.
> Best I can do there is put something in .ssh and that would
> allow login to a server; the server can also use HTTP for
> session authentication if the laptop has a web browser (even
> Dillo can handle cookies).[/color]

I am sure there is a way to authenticate. I was referring to
hardwired clients, not laptops. One would most likely not use
thin in residences and smallest businesses.
[color=blue]
> My previous employer had exactly this problem, as they used X
> Windows to draw their stuff -- and X has an inherent remoting
> capability, which can be exacerbated by various proxies to
> allow more than 1 user to share a window or desktop (the most
> obvious one nowadays is VNC).
>[color=green]
>> There are merits in this as the servers maintain the
>> software, an upgrade to a server upgrades all thin clients.[/color]
>
> Actually, it doesn't ... but never mind; I'm being pedantic.
> Suffice it to say that the thin clients do not need to upgrade
> nearly as often as the servers since the thin client protocol
> is relatively simple, and that lessens IT work. Of course
> upgrading the server allows the thin clients to access the new
> version -- transparently.
>
> No doubt that's what you meant, and it can be a *big*
> advantage.
>[color=green]
>> Also having software managed at server level has better
>> control over viruses, trojans, root kits, etc. Server can't
>> be back doored or "bypassed" through an infected thick
>> client, since thin client is essentially a terminal.
>> Backups are simplified since they are done as server level.
>> It is inherently easier to backup user files.
>>
>> This is where Linux shines. With Linux running an
>> alternative to Windows API's to run software applications
>> negates the need for the Windows operating system. Vista is
>> the best thing that ever happened to Linux.[/color]
>
> And the worst thing to happen to Microsoft. :-)
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>> Microsoft. Where did you want to go today?[/color]
>>
>> I still remember Corel Linux showing, "Where do you want to
>> go tomorrow?" when mouse was hovered over the "Start"
>> button. :-)[/color]
>
> Heh. Can't say I remember that, but that's because I've not
> used that distro.[/color]

It was very nicely done, using KDE 1.0. Those who say that KDE
was amateurish say without experience, Corel had a very nice
implementation of it. They even had SMB integration where one
could see similar to Windows Network Neighborhood other Windows
clients.
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>> Anywhere which is warmer. Scottt Douglas lives in Canada
>>> and I think that the cold weather prevents blood from
>>> reaching all of his brain cells.[/color]
>>
>> As Microsoft and some major software houses with heavy
>> Microsoft ties will not want "food taken off their plate"
>> (AKA maintain the monopoly), the FUD campaigns against Linux
>> and other alternative operating systems will continue.
>>
>> Best form of freedom is for people to simply try Linux and
>> other FOSS software out, judge for themselves.[/color]
>
> If they're aware of it. At least the "buzz" is still around
> Linux, and if Microsoft denigrates Linux in their ads, it is
> also *mentioning* Linux -- a double-edged sword.[/color]

You are right about that. The fat lady is singing and they can't
seem to shut her up. :-)

--
HPT

High Plains Thumper <highplainsthumper@invalid.invalid> writes:
[color=blue]
> Roy Schestowitz wrote:[color=green]
>> The Ghost In The Machine on Thursday:[color=darkred]
>>> Dusty Hendrix wrote:
>>>> "The Ghost In The Machine" wrote...
>>>>
>>>>> A rant, indeed a rant.
>>>>
>>>> Yet another COLA bozo who makes his living writing
>>>> proprietary Microsoft software but then complains how evil
>>>> Windows is.
>>>
>>> OK, so you're on record as not liking alternatives, then?
>>>
>>> Good.
>>>
>>> Let me know when Microsoft puts Symbian out of business. Last I
>>> heard Symbian has about 70% of the mobile OS market.[/color]
>>
>> That is correct. Microsoft is good at PR, so it was successful
>> at pretending that desktop PCs /WERE/ the computer. Should it
>> not matter that there are several billions of smart phones
>> (miniature PCs) out there? Microsoft is very,very good at PR
>> (poker face). It manages to convinced people that only an O/S
>> (even for phones) with "Shutdown" under some "Start" menu at
>> the bottom-left corner of the display is the 'standard'-- the
>> only standard which is 'user friendly' (read: like Windows).
>> But guess what? After about 10 years in the field and huge
>> spending (losses too, which they hid by combining divisions),
>> Microsoft has only 6% market share in this area.[/color]
>
> Future is in virtualisation and thin clients. It is easier to manage
> a handful of "terminal servers" serving thin clients instead of a slew
> of thick clients.[/color]

For who? Not for joe soap at home. They dont want their private ****
being mangled by dorks like you. They want to pay videos, games, audio
etc. They want a thick client. YOu seem to think this "networking" for
centralised resources is some sort of new thing. Err, it's not.
[color=blue]
>
> In April last year, Microsoft did an "about face" and now is working
> to support thin clients, albeit at roughly twice the cost of their
> thick client licenses. They are not yet supporting per user license.
> (One has 1,000 machines but only 500 users must pay 1,000 licenses,
> not 500.)
>
> There are merits in this as the servers maintain the software, an
> upgrade to a server upgrades all thin clients. Also having software
> managed at server level has better control over viruses, trojans, root
> kits, etc. Server can't be back doored or "bypassed" through an
> infected thick client, since thin client is essentially a terminal.
> Backups are simplified since they are done as server level. It is
> inherently easier to backup user files.[/color]

I have never worked on a SW project where the compiling/build
environments were stored on the local machine. Sure some check outs
could be, but generally we worked on the network - for obvious reasons
(which you feel the need to describe (wrongly) at length).

Your total lack of knowledge here is shocking. What "thin clients" are
you talking about? HTML? What? Java? AJAX? What?
[color=blue]
>
> This is where Linux shines. With Linux running an alternative to
> Windows API's to run software applications negates the need for the
> Windows operating system. Vista is the best thing that ever happened
> to Linux.[/color]

And yet Mono is being actively developed. And who are they copying? Yup
..... And guess what? MS make servers too. In fact MS servers are
currently displacing Linux servers. But you knew that.
[color=blue]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> Microsoft. Where did you want to go today?[/color][/color]
>
> I still remember Corel Linux showing, "Where do you want to go
> tomorrow?" when mouse was hovered over the "Start" button. :-)[/color]

Linonut'esque in it's unfunniness.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> Anywhere which is warmer. Scottt Douglas lives in Canada and I
>> think that the cold weather prevents blood from reaching all
>> of his brain cells.[/color]
>
> As Microsoft and some major software houses with heavy Microsoft ties
> will not want "food taken off their plate" (AKA maintain the
> monopoly), the FUD campaigns against Linux and other alternative
> operating systems will continue.[/color]

What FUD campaign?
[color=blue]
>
> Best form of freedom is for people to simply try Linux and other FOSS
> software out, judge for themselves.[/color]

Well, its out there. Its free. So what's stopping them. Oh yes. You and
your kind scare them off.

High Plains Thumper <highplainsthumper@invalid.invalid> writes:
[color=blue]
> Hadron wrote:[color=green]
>> High Plains Thumper writes:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Future is in virtualisation and thin clients. It is easier
>>> to manage a handful of "terminal servers" serving thin
>>> clients instead of a slew of thick clients.[/color]
>>
>> For who? Not for joe soap at home. They dont want their
>> private **** being mangled by dorks like you. They want to pay
>> videos, games, audio etc. They want a thick client. YOu seem
>> to think this "networking" for centralised resources is some
>> sort of new thing. Err, it's not.[/color]
>
> Your incompetence is showing, Hadron. Where is your common
> sense? *Most* home users are *unmanaged* (by a local server that
> is). I was referring to thin client usage in a corporate work
> environment.[/color]

Then say that.
[color=blue]
>
> Also you put words in my mouth that I did not say. Thin clients
> are not a new concept, but until now have been overall not widely
> used in office environments.[/color]

And are still not.