Golden Moment Lost For Making "Vista Killer" Linux or OS-X - What a WASTE - Linux

This is a discussion on Golden Moment Lost For Making "Vista Killer" Linux or OS-X - What a WASTE - Linux ; Did you ever get the feeling that both the Linux and Mac communies just missed the boat ? The incipent release of that horrorshow called "Vista" was the PERFECT time to have had a "Windows-killer" release of Linux ready - ...

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Thread: Golden Moment Lost For Making "Vista Killer" Linux or OS-X - What a WASTE

  1. Golden Moment Lost For Making "Vista Killer" Linux or OS-X - What a WASTE

    Did you ever get the feeling that both the Linux
    and Mac communies just missed the boat ? The
    incipent release of that horrorshow called "Vista"
    was the PERFECT time to have had a "Windows-killer"
    release of Linux ready - and/or a version of OS-X
    for generic X-86 boxes.

    Alas, Linux has as many driver-shortage issue as
    Vista and Apple is too keen to sell its own hardware.
    The golden moment is gone, perhaps for years, perhaps
    forever. Vista is SO crappy in SO many ways and will
    require SO many people to throw away SO many computers
    and peripherials ... but most of the sheep will just
    follow the "upgrade" path. Why ? No good ALTERNATIVES -
    good for Granny, good for Junior, good for the office,
    good for school - nada.

    Come ON folks, we've all been hearing about Vista for
    well over a year. Its delays should have been the
    opportunities to put together a standard release
    of Linux, preferably scalable from PDAs/Phones up
    through laptops, desktops and servers just by
    selecting more options from the installer. If hacks
    and gurus want their own weird custom versions, fine,
    but there should have been ONE "Windows Killer"
    ready in time to to take advantage of Windows weak
    moment.

    Think of how many PCs and peripherials businesses
    and schools will be expected to toss out just so they
    can run Vista. Think of how many people they will have
    to re-train just to handle the el-crapo 'improvements'
    to their pwescious MS Office package. Offer them a very
    nice Linux system and Open-Office instead ... tell them
    that Linux won't play expensive tricks on them like
    Microsoft ... and they'd have seen the cost savings
    both near and long term.

    Apple was perhaps the best equipped to take advantage
    of the golden moment. OS-X has already been ported to
    intel-based systems and has that creamy-good look and
    feel to it that consumers crave. Making OS-X work on
    generic X-86 boxes ... they'd have sold millions of
    copies overnight. But, they like to think of themselves
    as a "hardware" company. BUT, if you've got to throw
    out your PC for a Vista PC and you've got to throw out
    your PC for an OS-X PC, may as well just stick with
    good old Winders, right ?

    So, Microsoft is going to become even MORE entrenched,
    screwing-over and ripping-off the world for decades to
    come ... and financing NEW attacks against Linux and
    open-source.


  2. Re: Golden Moment Lost For Making "Vista Killer" Linux or OS-X - What a WASTE

    If I had to guess, I would say that Linux actually has better driver
    support than OS X. Even if Apple started porting their system to
    generic x86 boxes, it would be much more limited since it's new to the
    platform which, by contrast, has been Linux and Windows' home turf for
    decades.

    Ben

  3. Re: Golden Moment Lost For Making "Vista Killer" Linux or OS-X - What a WASTE

    On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:37:19 GMT, Benjamin Kwiecien
    wrote:

    >If I had to guess, I would say that Linux actually has better driver
    >support than OS X.


    My scanner doesn't work, my printer only halfway works,
    my color laser printer isn't supported, my video card
    is supported but insists on starting up up max-rez mode
    so I can't see anything on my monitor, I have lots of
    trouble with USB devices, memory-card readers and such ....

    It's not as if I buy off-brand equipment either. This is
    just plain ANNOYING and bound to put off a lot of potential
    Linux users. Yes, I fully understand that most Linux
    development is done for free and I can't whip on people
    for not doing what they're not paid to do ... but the
    general public won't see it that way. So, they'll stick
    with the abomination or maybe, just maybe, blow a wad
    and switch to Apple. The abomination will just get
    bigger and more powerful even as its software gets
    worse and worse. It's already tried to snuff-out
    open-source, currently pretends to embrace it (a
    little), and tomorrow ???

    Seems to me that an extraordinary amount of effort goes
    into making variant versions of Linux. HOW many are there
    now ? How many are binary compatible ? Why won't a Fedora
    RPM work properly with SUSE ? Look at the config files
    and you'll see vast amounts of compiler/library/linker
    data designed to cope with all of the versions. Just
    awful ... and pointless.

    When people ask me if Linux is good for what they do - which
    is usually e-mail, chat, web and photos - I generally tell
    them to get a Knoppix disk instead of trying to install and
    find software for any of the 'big' distributions. Knoppix
    is pretty good, most grannies could use it, and it doesn't
    mess up your Winders installation.

    >Even if Apple started porting their system to
    >generic x86 boxes, it would be much more limited since it's new to the
    >platform which, by contrast, has been Linux and Windows' home turf for
    >decades.


    Running an Epson XYZ printer requires the same commands
    and processing whether it's being run from Linux, Winders,
    OS-X or whatever. In THEORY their drivers ought to port
    over with little effort.

    Wouldn't hurt if manufacturers got a little more enthused
    over OS-X and Linux and supplied their own drivers. But
    why SHOULD they since 90+ percent have little alternative
    but to stick with Winders ? Almost a chicken/egg sort of
    problem. No software = no users and no users = no software.

    I can see Apple selling geniune iMacs as their "deluxe
    package". Having fairly tight control on the hardware
    used in the computer lets them really optimize things.
    However, a generic X-86 version of OS-X doesn't seem
    all that impossible and shouldn't be all that much
    trouble to use. Winders may always support a few more
    devices, but combining "close enough" with the joy
    of being MS free ... I'd buy it.


  4. Re: Golden Moment Lost For Making "Vista Killer" Linux or OS-X - What a WASTE

    Of course, I'm talking about platform drivers, not peripheral drivers!
    If the platform is not supported, *none* of the peripherals will work.

    If you think it's bad that your scanner isn't supported, what are you
    going to do when your USB controller isn't supported?

    Ben

  5. Re: Golden Moment Lost For Making "Vista Killer" Linux or OS-X -What a WASTE

    Luminoso wrote:
    snip
    > Wouldn't hurt if manufacturers got a little more enthused
    > over OS-X and Linux and supplied their own drivers. But
    > why SHOULD they since 90+ percent have little alternative
    > but to stick with Winders ? Almost a chicken/egg sort of
    > problem. No software = no users and no users = no software.
    >

    You're the CEO of Nvidia. You write a letter to Bill Gates.

    Dear Bill,
    Our new line of video cards supports open source. We have drivers
    for linux and OSX. We enthusiastically support full video capability
    without DRM limitations. We have NOT implemented the mandated Vista
    restrictions. We trust that this will not impact the other 99% of our
    existing business based on our existing partnership with Microsoft...

    If you were the CEO of a graphics vendor, what would you do?

    Bill already owns the software. Vista will give him the hardware...
    AND control of content.
    This is a dark day for Linux.
    And as soon as the content owners wake up and realize that Gates
    has them by the balls, it will be a dark day for them too.

    The only practical way out is for someone with deep pockets to take
    on MS and Hollywood.
    Wal-Mart took on the drug companies. Wouldn't it be cool if
    they built a high-performance restriction-free linux system from the
    ground up?

    mike

  6. Re: Golden Moment Lost For Making "Vista Killer" Linux or OS-X - What a WASTE

    mike wrote:

    >Luminoso wrote:
    >snip
    >> Wouldn't hurt if manufacturers got a little more enthused
    >> over OS-X and Linux and supplied their own drivers. But
    >> why SHOULD they since 90+ percent have little alternative
    >> but to stick with Winders ? Almost a chicken/egg sort of
    >> problem. No software = no users and no users = no software.
    >>

    >You're the CEO of Nvidia. You write a letter to Bill Gates.
    >
    >Dear Bill,
    >Our new line of video cards supports open source. We have drivers
    >for linux and OSX. We enthusiastically support full video capability
    >without DRM limitations. We have NOT implemented the mandated Vista
    >restrictions. We trust that this will not impact the other 99% of our
    >existing business based on our existing partnership with Microsoft...
    >
    >If you were the CEO of a graphics vendor, what would you do?
    >
    >Bill already owns the software. Vista will give him the hardware...
    >AND control of content.
    >This is a dark day for Linux.
    >And as soon as the content owners wake up and realize that Gates
    >has them by the balls, it will be a dark day for them too.
    >
    >The only practical way out is for someone with deep pockets to take
    >on MS and Hollywood.
    >Wal-Mart took on the drug companies. Wouldn't it be cool if
    >they built a high-performance restriction-free linux system from the
    >ground up?


    The hardware vendors are going to fall all over themselves
    to implement any restrictions MS desires. Count on it. At
    this point the only way to thwart MS would be to hire 100
    ninjas and tell them to go nuts - OR convince the Chinese
    government that MS is bad for them and get them to flood
    the US market with noncompliant machines so cheap that
    all the MS suck-ups will go broke.


  7. Re: Golden Moment Lost For Making "Vista Killer" Linux or OS-X - What a WASTE

    On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 21:43:15 +0000, Luminoso wrote:

    > My scanner doesn't work, my printer only halfway works, my color laser
    > printer isn't supported, my video card is supported but insists on
    > starting up up max-rez mode so I can't see anything on my monitor, I
    > have lots of trouble with USB devices, memory-card readers and such


    So? One apocryphal story about one user's experience does not mean Linux
    has poor driver support. In *my* experience, my hardware has typically
    worked better and more readily than on Windows XP. Take network cards, for
    example. Install Windows XP right off the disc and you typically will not
    have any network connection until you then instal the manufacturer's
    driver from their driver disc. Linux? All the linuces I've used -- MEPIS,
    Ubuntu, Fedora, Red Hat -- pretty much all have working NICs out-of-the
    box. That does make things much esasier, 'specially when you've lost the
    manufacturer's driver CD.

    --
    JDS


  8. Re: Golden Moment Lost For Making "Vista Killer" Linux or OS-X -What a WASTE

    On Sun, 06 May 2007 19:06:20 +0000, Luminoso wrote:

    > ...
    >
    > Vista represents a stumble at a very bad moment. OS-X and linux are
    > now in a position to exploit any mistake MS makes.


    I would agree with that assessment. Except that, there has to be some
    sort of centralized organization/authority/other in place and able to
    move swiftly enough to capture the opportunity. I'm sorry to say, I don't
    know of anything like that in the linux/FOSS community. A shame,
    really....

    Businesses are
    > worried about getting locked into MS proprietary data formats and the
    > constant headaches of dealing with the virus/spyware problems and the
    > increasing costs of upgrades/licences/retraining. Many of them are
    > already using linux-based servers and that has reduced their
    > instinctive paranoia about anything "different".
    >
    > Government is rightly concerned about the terrible security problems
    > with Winders, including Vista. It also suffers from the costs of
    > upgrades, licences and re-training personell. It too has been phasing
    > in linux servers with good results.
    >
    > Foreign governments and businesses are even more worried about
    > becoming "slaves" to a US-based company. Many can't afford to pay for
    > Winders anyway. Linux is the logical way to go, and we're talking a
    > few of BILLION potential customers here. They will help keep
    > "alternatives" alive and well.


    I think there may be a dollars and cents issue here. I have both m$ and
    Linux in my home, and while the up-front cost for winders is or can be a
    bit steep, those numbers eventually drop off over time, especially once
    the system's dialled in correctly. My linux box, I'm always tweaking and
    freaking on something or other, whether maintenance or what-have-you. And
    with the age of the install, that figure climbs. I have the feeling,
    based on what I've read on the net and in the papers that companies may
    be seeing much the same thing. That, in turn, may be causing them to be a
    bit shy or skittish about moving over completely.
    >
    > Now if Corel would port its latest office suite to linux and support
    > it ... beats the crap out of the MS suite and OpenOffice. A business
    > suite that slick and sophisticated would really attract a lot of
    > business customers to linux. One big fat fly in the ointment is the
    > sheer number of distros - all too many of which are subtly
    > incompatible with each other. There really needs to be a "standard
    > linux" or at least just a few distros "for the masses". Vendors can
    > cope with that.


    I haven't seen the Corel office offering in a LONG time - call it 15
    years or thereabouts since I saw its ancestors, so I can't speak to it.

    The idea of a 'standardized' distro sort of goes against the grain of
    what Linux/FOSS is all about, which in part follows a certain hamburger
    retailer's advice - have it your way. Mind, I like the notion, and think
    it might be a good thing in some ways, especially in the interest of
    getting John Q. Public interested or involved. But, I dunno, sounds a bit
    like a slippery slope leading roughly in the same direction as the folks
    in Redmond and the folks in Cupertino went.

  9. Re: Golden Moment Lost For Making "Vista Killer" Linux or OS-X - What a WASTE

    M. Trimble wrote:

    > On Sun, 06 May 2007 19:06:20 +0000, Luminoso wrote:
    >
    >> ...
    >>
    >> Vista represents a stumble at a very bad moment. OS-X and linux are
    >> now in a position to exploit any mistake MS makes.

    >
    > I would agree with that assessment. Except that, there has to be some
    > sort of centralized organization/authority/other in place and able to
    > move swiftly enough to capture the opportunity. I'm sorry to say, I don't
    > know of anything like that in the linux/FOSS community. A shame,
    > really....


    Not really - later in your post your point out that Linux has a large number
    choices, which is good. There are a few really /big/ distros, any of which
    can be easily adopted by business. For example, my company uses a modified
    Ubuntu as distro of choice - we built our own version which includes
    software we need by default, and omits the stuff we don't need. We run Red
    Hat on our servers, and have an entirely stable, reliable, secure computing
    system that requires minimal maintenance.

    >> Government is rightly concerned about the terrible security problems
    >> with Winders, including Vista. It also suffers from the costs of
    >> upgrades, licences and re-training personell. It too has been phasing
    >> in linux servers with good results.
    >>
    >> Foreign governments and businesses are even more worried about
    >> becoming "slaves" to a US-based company. Many can't afford to pay for
    >> Winders anyway. Linux is the logical way to go, and we're talking a
    >> few of BILLION potential customers here. They will help keep
    >> "alternatives" alive and well.

    >
    > I think there may be a dollars and cents issue here. I have both m$ and
    > Linux in my home, and while the up-front cost for winders is or can be a
    > bit steep, those numbers eventually drop off over time, especially once
    > the system's dialled in correctly.


    No - you're entirely wrong. The use of MS rubbish-ware demands constant
    expenditure - endless "anti-virus", "anti-malware", "firewall" updates and
    upgrades ( *NONE* of which work effectively ) and constant monitoring of
    licences and the update state of the machines. It requires (in a company
    of our size) the full-time employment of at least three dedicated staff.

    With FOSS systems, we employ ONE person (at about 1.5 times the cost of a
    Windows "Administrator"), so there's an immediate saving there. We can
    easily "push" upgrades and updates across our internal network - a facility
    supposed to be possible with Windows, but has never actually worked
    reliably - which radically reduces the admin's workload.

    > My linux box, I'm always tweaking and
    > freaking on something or other, whether maintenance or what-have-you. And
    > with the age of the install, that figure climbs. I have the feeling,
    > based on what I've read on the net and in the papers that companies may
    > be seeing much the same thing. That, in turn, may be causing them to be a
    > bit shy or skittish about moving over completely.


    You may do that with your personal system - that's /your/ /choice,/ but in a
    commercial environment, it doesn't happen. We have an annual upgrade cycle
    (which seldom requires new hardware), and a fortnightly update cycle. We
    use proper remote administration (even with remote laptops) and even use
    Tight VNC for training purposes!

    > The idea of a 'standardized' distro sort of goes against the grain of
    > what Linux/FOSS is all about, which in part follows a certain hamburger
    > retailer's advice - have it your way.


    The diversity is probably the greatest strength. I would argue that there
    are distros aimed squarely at differing users - Suse for business, Mandriva
    for the more clued-in home user, Ubuntu for beginners, and so on. The
    facility for companies to build their own distro, as we've done, is truly
    wonderful, and requires less effort than you would believe.

    It's easy to set up and maintain a truly secure company network, to set up a
    "corporate look" for the machines, and to keep everything right up to date.
    We find that computers /increase/ our productivity rather than act as a
    drain on resources. (Most companies complain about /reduced/ productivity
    with Windows systems). Our training requirements are easily handled, and
    new staff, who've known nothing but MS before, are using our systems
    confidently within a hour of two.

    > Mind, I like the notion, and think
    > it might be a good thing in some ways, especially in the interest of
    > getting John Q. Public interested or involved. But, I dunno, sounds a bit
    > like a slippery slope leading roughly in the same direction as the folks
    > in Redmond and the folks in Cupertino went.


    Standardisation /is/ happening to some extent - most distros now include
    Open Office, for example. All distros can be /made/ to work alike (apart
    from their update tools) if you want.

    Linux has finally come of age, and is being widely adopted both in the
    commercial world and for home users. MS have hobbled themselves with their
    newest products, and with their insistence on carrying on with their
    spaghetti-code kernel (which /still/ contains the broken, stolen BSD TCP/IP
    stack - they couldn't even steal the corrected, working version!). Bits of
    the guts of "Vista" are actually written in BASIC, which probably goes some
    of the way to explaining its' lack of performance!

    C.


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