WHS can't handle NTFS alt data streams - Linux

This is a discussion on WHS can't handle NTFS alt data streams - Linux ; Another good reason to use Linux instead for your home server: http://community.winsupersite.com/bl...-concerns.aspx Now, I see this scary little Microsoft knowledge base article (When you use certain programs to edit files on a home computer that uses Windows Home Server, the ...

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Thread: WHS can't handle NTFS alt data streams

  1. WHS can't handle NTFS alt data streams

    Another good reason to use Linux instead for your home server:

    http://community.winsupersite.com/bl...-concerns.aspx

    Now, I see this scary little Microsoft knowledge base article (When
    you use certain programs to edit files on a home computer that
    uses Windows Home Server, the files may become corrupted when
    you save them to the home server). As you might imagine, I use
    several of those applications. All my data is stored on the home
    server. Are you seriously telling me that my personal photo
    collection might be corrupt, Microsoft? Really? Sorry. But this is
    scary. Really scary.

    Is this stuff doesn't freak you out, it should. It freaks me out. I
    really, really like WHS and the HP MediaSmart Server specifically.
    But I've got this growing concern about these products, and I just
    need to communicate it. Is anyone else having any WHS issues? Is it
    just me?

    Update: There's also this WHS-related KB: Data files that contain
    NTFS alternate data streams can be corrupted on a Windows Home
    Server-based computer. This is related to the previous KB in that
    applications like Windows Photo Gallery and Windows Live Gallery are
    among those that use NTFS alternate data streams. Apparently, WHS has
    no idea how to deal with these kinds of files, which can lead to
    corruption.

    One has to ask why this is even an issue. Does Microsoft not do design
    reviews and walkthroughs, where people are able to come up with problems
    right up front, before this stuff is coded, let alone release to market?

    Seriously, this is just totally amateurish, a very sloppy process.

    http://support.microsoft.com/default...b/943393/en-us

    Microsoft is researching this problem and will post more information
    in this article when the information becomes available. Until an
    update for Windows Home Server is available, we advise the following:

    * Do not copy data files that contain alternate data streams
    to Windows Home Server shared folders.

    * Do not use applications that use data files that contain
    alternate data streams when those data files reside in a shared
    folder on a Windows Home Server-based computer.

    Visit the following Microsoft Web site to obtain a utility that can
    be used to determine whether a file contains an alternate data
    stream:

    http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sys...k/Streams.mspx

    --
    Tux rox!

  2. Re: WHS can't handle NTFS alt data streams

    In article ,
    Linonut wrote:
    > Another good reason to use Linux instead for your home server:
    >
    > http://community.winsupersite.com/bl...22/serious-win
    > dows-home-server-concerns.aspx
    >
    > Now, I see this scary little Microsoft knowledge base article (When


    That's an interesting knowledge base article:



    It basically lists symptoms, which are a bunch of listed programs have
    trouble with Windows Home Server. And then it lists the cause:

    CAUSE

    This issue may occur because of a recently discovered problem with
    Windows Home Server shared folders and with certain programs

    Am I reading that right? Is it basically saying the issue is that there
    is a problem? Did they hire ELIZA to write their knowledge base
    articles?

    ....
    > Update: There's also this WHS-related KB: Data files that contain
    > NTFS alternate data streams can be corrupted on a Windows Home
    > Server-based computer. This is related to the previous KB in that
    > applications like Windows Photo Gallery and Windows Live Gallery are
    > among those that use NTFS alternate data streams. Apparently, WHS has
    > no idea how to deal with these kinds of files, which can lead to
    > corruption.


    OK, now it is getting interesting. Here's the symptom the second
    knowledge base article mentions:

    You add a data file that contains NTFS alternate data streams to a
    shared folder on a Windows Home Server-based computer. Then, you try
    to access the data file by using a home computer that is running
    antivirus software. In this case, applications that are running on
    the home computer do not recognize the file format. Additionally,
    files such as executable files (.exe) and files that have an .avi
    extension do not appear correctly in Windows Explorer, and such
    files cannot be opened.

    That's interesting because it says the problem occurs when you try to
    access from a computer *running antivirus software*. Can computers that
    aren't running antivirus access the files fine? Is what is going wrong

    1. The file is not put on the server correctly in the first place, or

    2. The file is on the server fine, but clients running antivirus can't
    access it, or

    3. The file goes onto the server fine, but antivirus on the client
    corrupts it when the client tries to access it, and then it is broken
    for all clients?

    > One has to ask why this is even an issue. Does Microsoft not do design
    > reviews and walkthroughs, where people are able to come up with problems
    > right up front, before this stuff is coded, let alone release to market?
    >
    > Seriously, this is just totally amateurish, a very sloppy process.


    Worse, this is one of the places where a commercial software vendor is
    supposed to do *better* than open source (if the problem is not actually
    due to antivirus, but rather sloppy or non-existent ADS handling in some
    of Microsoft's programs). Lots of applications designed either before
    ADS became available, or designed by people who forgot about ADS, can
    have problems if a file contains an ADS that needs to be preserved.

    Same with things like metadata and access control lists. One of the
    difficulties in adding access control lists to Unix, for example, is
    doing it in a way that won't be messed up when someone uses a program
    that isn't aware of access control lists. E.g., what happens when you
    edit a file with a text editor? If the editor writes your edits to a
    new file, and then renames the original file to a backup, and renames
    the new file to the original name, well, what happens to the ACL on the
    original file? It stays with the backup, and your new file just has the
    default. Oops.

    Microsoft had a similar situation in Win95 with long file names. They
    knew lots of people would be using programs that weren't aware of long
    files names. That brings up the same situation with file names that I
    described in the previous paragraph with ACLs. A program saving your
    changes will just save under short names, and the long name would be
    lost. Long names would be very annoying if every time a program that
    wasn't designed for Win95 changed a file, the long name got lost! They
    kludged this with a cache of recently deleted long name/short name
    pairs. If you had a file whose long name was foobarspambletch.txt,
    short name foobar~1.txt, and that got deleted or renamed, and then
    shortly afterwards, some program tried to create foobar~1.txt, Win95
    used the cache to guess what the long name was.

    Anyway, as I said, this is the kind of thing a commercial software
    developer is supposed to handle, because, as a commercial developer,
    they've got managers who can tell programmers to fix these things, and
    bad things happen to the programmer's careers if they don't obey. So,
    for instance, when Apple went to Unix for the core of their system, they
    had these kind of potential problems to anticipate and deal with. MacOS
    from the start had used a filesystem where each file had two data
    streams, and both data streams were used in many files (it wasn't like
    Windows ADS where very little use was made of ADS). So, when they went
    to Unix, they had to go look at everything, and decide which Unix
    utilities needed to be modified to deal with multiple data streams.
    Utilities like cp, tar, zip, unzip and similar were changed to know
    about data streams, so you can manipulate Mac files from the command
    line with them, and you don't lose things. They did skip some things.
    Vi, for example, loses the resource fork. Presumably, they decided that
    it wasn't worth it with vi, because the kind of files that vi would lose
    data on are the kind of files you would not be editing in vi.
    Similarly, when they added an ACL system to OS X, they modified Unix
    utilities to work with it.

    Sounds like Microsoft just dropped the ball here. They should be able
    to make their own applications work with WHS!

    --
    --Tim Smith

  3. Re: WHS can't handle NTFS alt data streams

    On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:01:18 -0800, Tim Smith wrote:

    >> One has to ask why this is even an issue. Does Microsoft not do design
    >> reviews and walkthroughs, where people are able to come up with problems
    >> right up front, before this stuff is coded, let alone release to market?
    >>
    >> Seriously, this is just totally amateurish, a very sloppy process.

    >
    > Worse, this is one of the places where a commercial software vendor is
    > supposed to do *better* than open source (if the problem is not actually
    > due to antivirus, but rather sloppy or non-existent ADS handling in some
    > of Microsoft's programs). Lots of applications designed either before
    > ADS became available, or designed by people who forgot about ADS, can
    > have problems if a file contains an ADS that needs to be preserved.


    Indeed. This is a serious dropping of the ball by Microsoft in WHS.

    I'd guess the problem is that WHS does something called "storage balancing"
    which is a simple form of RAID that allows disks of any size to be added to
    the array and managed without extending partitions or other "dangerous"
    filesystem actions.

    Storage balancing makes copies of files and balances those copies across
    multiple volumes, and i'd bet the balancer doesn't take ADS's into account.

    I wouldn't call it "amateurish", but it's certainly sloppy.

  4. Re: WHS can't handle NTFS alt data streams

    * Erik Funkenbusch fired off this tart reply:

    > On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:01:18 -0800, Tim Smith wrote:
    >
    >>> Seriously, this is just totally amateurish, a very sloppy process.

    >>
    >> Worse, this is one of the places where a commercial software vendor is
    >> supposed to do *better* than open source (if the problem is not actually
    >> due to antivirus, but rather sloppy or non-existent ADS handling in some
    >> of Microsoft's programs). Lots of applications designed either before
    >> ADS became available, or designed by people who forgot about ADS, can
    >> have problems if a file contains an ADS that needs to be preserved.

    >
    > Indeed. This is a serious dropping of the ball by Microsoft in WHS.
    >
    > I'd guess the problem is that WHS does something called "storage balancing"
    > which is a simple form of RAID that allows disks of any size to be added to
    > the array and managed without extending partitions or other "dangerous"
    > filesystem actions.
    >
    > Storage balancing makes copies of files and balances those copies across
    > multiple volumes, and i'd bet the balancer doesn't take ADS's into account.
    >
    > I wouldn't call it "amateurish", but it's certainly sloppy.


    Well, "sloppy" may be worse than "amateurish", in this case.

    --
    Tux rox!

  5. Re: WHS can't handle NTFS alt data streams

    On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 17:09:19 -0500, Linonut wrote:

    >> Storage balancing makes copies of files and balances those copies
    >> across multiple volumes, and i'd bet the balancer doesn't take ADS's
    >> into account.
    >>
    >> I wouldn't call it "amateurish", but it's certainly sloppy.

    >
    > Well, "sloppy" may be worse than "amateurish", in this case.


    Either way, this is a deal breaker. Not that I'd recommend WHS to anyone,
    this would be a really good reason to run - not walk - away from WHS.

  6. Re: WHS can't handle NTFS alt data streams

    * Roy Schestowitz fired off this tart reply:

    > MS Insider: The Office Crew Isn't Smart Enough to Supplant Real Windows
    > Developers
    >
    > ,----[ Quote ]
    >| "With Alchin retiring, MarkL and MarkZ, two of the most talented
    >| architects in MS already having left, the picture gets really
    >| ugly for the Windows division," my friend claimed, and the BV's
    >| core team members, Ian McDonald, Jack Mayo, Todd Wanke, Clyde
    >| Rodriguez and others are starting to connect the dots.
    >|
    >| [...]
    >|
    >| He concluded ominously. "A trainwreck of biblical proportions looms.
    >| Pick a good seat on the sidelines, trainwrecks this large take
    >| awhile to complete. Vista may be the last MS OS for some time to
    >| come, especially if Cutler decides to play hardball."
    > `----
    >
    > http://www.emailbattles.com/2006/09/...ws-developers/
    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/35eqrt


    "The Office team is taking over Windows. They have no idea
    what they\u2019re biting into. Office source is at least an order
    of magnitude smaller in size than Windows source and Heaven knows
    how many fewer sku's produce. The product compile times
    aren't even in the same time measurement window."

    Here's a Ballmeresque episode from Windows-Live-guy-cum-kernel-developer
    David Cutler:

    As for Cutler... the hard-nosed kernel developer has gone from
    Windows development to "improving" Windows Live. When
    teased about his new assignment, my friend told me he threw a
    "Cutler classic temper tantrum," nearly wrecking a small
    part of the cafeteria.

    "Considering that he and not MS owns the kernel code," my
    buddy said, "This is amazingly stupid! He's just biding
    time to vest some stock and then he'll split, I just know
    it!"

    What? Cutler owns with Windows kernel code? Can that possibly be true.
    It seems amazingly unbelievable to me.

    He concluded ominously. "A trainwreck of biblical proportions
    looms. Pick a good seat on the sidelines, trainwrecks this large take
    awhile to complete. Vista may be the last MS OS for some time to
    come, especially if Cutler decides to play hardball."

    On the other hand, Ballmer just promised new releases every two
    years, from here on out.

    Funny how reality doesn't quite match up with the press
    releases, isn't it?

    --
    Tux rox!

  7. Re: WHS can't handle NTFS alt data streams

    ____/ Linonut on Tuesday 25 December 2007 18:29 : \____

    > * Roy Schestowitz fired off this tart reply:
    >
    >> MS Insider: The Office Crew Isn't Smart Enough to Supplant Real Windows
    >> Developers
    >>
    >> ,----[ Quote ]
    >>| "With Alchin retiring, MarkL and MarkZ, two of the most talented
    >>| architects in MS already having left, the picture gets really
    >>| ugly for the Windows division," my friend claimed, and the BV's
    >>| core team members, Ian McDonald, Jack Mayo, Todd Wanke, Clyde
    >>| Rodriguez and others are starting to connect the dots.
    >>|
    >>| [...]
    >>|
    >>| He concluded ominously. "A trainwreck of biblical proportions looms.
    >>| Pick a good seat on the sidelines, trainwrecks this large take
    >>| awhile to complete. Vista may be the last MS OS for some time to
    >>| come, especially if Cutler decides to play hardball."
    >> `----
    >>
    >>

    http://www.emailbattles.com/2006/09/...ws-developers/
    >>
    >> http://tinyurl.com/35eqrt

    >
    > "The Office team is taking over Windows. They have no idea
    > what they\u2019re biting into. Office source is at least an order
    > of magnitude smaller in size than Windows source and Heaven knows
    > how many fewer sku's produce. The product compile times
    > aren't even in the same time measurement window."
    >
    > Here's a Ballmeresque episode from Windows-Live-guy-cum-kernel-developer
    > David Cutler:
    >
    > As for Cutler... the hard-nosed kernel developer has gone from
    > Windows development to "improving" Windows Live. When
    > teased about his new assignment, my friend told me he threw a
    > "Cutler classic temper tantrum," nearly wrecking a small
    > part of the cafeteria.
    >
    > "Considering that he and not MS owns the kernel code," my
    > buddy said, "This is amazingly stupid! He's just biding
    > time to vest some stock and then he'll split, I just know
    > it!"
    >
    > What? Cutler owns with Windows kernel code? Can that possibly be true.
    > It seems amazingly unbelievable to me.
    >
    > He concluded ominously. "A trainwreck of biblical proportions
    > looms. Pick a good seat on the sidelines, trainwrecks this large take
    > awhile to complete. Vista may be the last MS OS for some time to
    > come, especially if Cutler decides to play hardball."
    >
    > On the other hand, Ballmer just promised new releases every two
    > years, from here on out.
    >
    > Funny how reality doesn't quite match up with the press
    > releases, isn't it?


    They are still failing at this. Their diary is made out of vapour. Wait until
    they 'rename' (no, they won't call it a rename) a Service Pack to make it seem
    like a new&shiny release. A year ago, Allchin said he regretted not calling
    the XP Service Packs something else, which would make them seem like new
    O/Ses. I think it was in Mary Jo Foley's blog, but I can't recall for sure
    (this might take a while to find).

    --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Linux is like a girlfriend; try to stick to one distribution for a lifetime
    http://Schestowitz.com | Free as in Free Beer | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    Cpu(s): 25.4%us, 4.2%sy, 1.0%ni, 65.5%id, 3.6%wa, 0.3%hi, 0.2%si, 0.0%st
    http://iuron.com - semantic engine to gather information

  8. Re: WHS can't handle NTFS alt data streams

    Roy Schestowitz espoused:
    > ____/ Linonut on Tuesday 25 December 2007 18:29 : \____
    >
    >> * Roy Schestowitz fired off this tart reply:
    >>
    >>> MS Insider: The Office Crew Isn't Smart Enough to Supplant Real Windows
    >>> Developers
    >>>
    >>> ,----[ Quote ]
    >>>| "With Alchin retiring, MarkL and MarkZ, two of the most talented
    >>>| architects in MS already having left, the picture gets really
    >>>| ugly for the Windows division," my friend claimed, and the BV's
    >>>| core team members, Ian McDonald, Jack Mayo, Todd Wanke, Clyde
    >>>| Rodriguez and others are starting to connect the dots.
    >>>|
    >>>| [...]
    >>>|
    >>>| He concluded ominously. "A trainwreck of biblical proportions looms.
    >>>| Pick a good seat on the sidelines, trainwrecks this large take
    >>>| awhile to complete. Vista may be the last MS OS for some time to
    >>>| come, especially if Cutler decides to play hardball."
    >>> `----
    >>>
    >>>

    > http://www.emailbattles.com/2006/09/...ws-developers/
    >>>
    >>> http://tinyurl.com/35eqrt

    >>
    >> "The Office team is taking over Windows. They have no idea
    >> what they\u2019re biting into. Office source is at least an order
    >> of magnitude smaller in size than Windows source and Heaven knows
    >> how many fewer sku's produce. The product compile times
    >> aren't even in the same time measurement window."
    >>
    >> Here's a Ballmeresque episode from Windows-Live-guy-cum-kernel-developer
    >> David Cutler:
    >>
    >> As for Cutler... the hard-nosed kernel developer has gone from
    >> Windows development to "improving" Windows Live. When
    >> teased about his new assignment, my friend told me he threw a
    >> "Cutler classic temper tantrum," nearly wrecking a small
    >> part of the cafeteria.
    >>
    >> "Considering that he and not MS owns the kernel code," my
    >> buddy said, "This is amazingly stupid! He's just biding
    >> time to vest some stock and then he'll split, I just know
    >> it!"
    >>
    >> What? Cutler owns with Windows kernel code? Can that possibly be true.
    >> It seems amazingly unbelievable to me.
    >>
    >> He concluded ominously. "A trainwreck of biblical proportions
    >> looms. Pick a good seat on the sidelines, trainwrecks this large take
    >> awhile to complete. Vista may be the last MS OS for some time to
    >> come, especially if Cutler decides to play hardball."
    >>
    >> On the other hand, Ballmer just promised new releases every two
    >> years, from here on out.
    >>
    >> Funny how reality doesn't quite match up with the press
    >> releases, isn't it?

    >
    > They are still failing at this. Their diary is made out of vapour. Wait until
    > they 'rename' (no, they won't call it a rename) a Service Pack to make it seem
    > like a new&shiny release. A year ago, Allchin said he regretted not calling
    > the XP Service Packs something else, which would make them seem like new
    > O/Ses. I think it was in Mary Jo Foley's blog, but I can't recall for sure
    > (this might take a while to find).
    >


    It's all noise and no substance, isn't it? I suppose the thinking is
    that if the SPs had been called "new releases", then Microsoft could've
    tried to squeeze even more cash from their unsuspecting customer base.

    --
    | Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
    | Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
    | Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
    | My (new) blog: http://www.thereisnomagic.org |

  9. Re: WHS can't handle NTFS alt data streams

    ____/ Mark Kent on Tuesday 01 January 2008 16:13 : \____

    > Roy Schestowitz espoused:
    >> ____/ Linonut on Tuesday 25 December 2007 18:29 : \____
    >>
    >>> * Roy Schestowitz fired off this tart reply:
    >>>
    >>>> MS Insider: The Office Crew Isn't Smart Enough to Supplant Real Windows
    >>>> Developers
    >>>>
    >>>> ,----[ Quote ]
    >>>>| "With Alchin retiring, MarkL and MarkZ, two of the most talented
    >>>>| architects in MS already having left, the picture gets really
    >>>>| ugly for the Windows division," my friend claimed, and the BV's
    >>>>| core team members, Ian McDonald, Jack Mayo, Todd Wanke, Clyde
    >>>>| Rodriguez and others are starting to connect the dots.
    >>>>|
    >>>>| [...]
    >>>>|
    >>>>| He concluded ominously. "A trainwreck of biblical proportions looms.
    >>>>| Pick a good seat on the sidelines, trainwrecks this large take
    >>>>| awhile to complete. Vista may be the last MS OS for some time to
    >>>>| come, especially if Cutler decides to play hardball."
    >>>> `----
    >>>>
    >>>>

    >>

    http://www.emailbattles.com/2006/09/...ws-developers/
    >>>>
    >>>> http://tinyurl.com/35eqrt
    >>>
    >>> "The Office team is taking over Windows. They have no idea
    >>> what they\u2019re biting into. Office source is at least an order
    >>> of magnitude smaller in size than Windows source and Heaven knows
    >>> how many fewer sku's produce. The product compile times
    >>> aren't even in the same time measurement window."
    >>>
    >>> Here's a Ballmeresque episode from Windows-Live-guy-cum-kernel-developer
    >>> David Cutler:
    >>>
    >>> As for Cutler... the hard-nosed kernel developer has gone from
    >>> Windows development to "improving" Windows Live. When
    >>> teased about his new assignment, my friend told me he threw a
    >>> "Cutler classic temper tantrum," nearly wrecking a small
    >>> part of the cafeteria.
    >>>
    >>> "Considering that he and not MS owns the kernel code," my
    >>> buddy said, "This is amazingly stupid! He's just biding
    >>> time to vest some stock and then he'll split, I just know
    >>> it!"
    >>>
    >>> What? Cutler owns with Windows kernel code? Can that possibly be true.
    >>> It seems amazingly unbelievable to me.
    >>>
    >>> He concluded ominously. "A trainwreck of biblical proportions
    >>> looms. Pick a good seat on the sidelines, trainwrecks this large take
    >>> awhile to complete. Vista may be the last MS OS for some time to
    >>> come, especially if Cutler decides to play hardball."
    >>>
    >>> On the other hand, Ballmer just promised new releases every two
    >>> years, from here on out.
    >>>
    >>> Funny how reality doesn't quite match up with the press
    >>> releases, isn't it?

    >>
    >> They are still failing at this. Their diary is made out of vapour. Wait
    >> until they 'rename' (no, they won't call it a rename) a Service Pack to make
    >> it seem like a new&shiny release. A year ago, Allchin said he regretted not
    >> calling the XP Service Packs something else, which would make them seem like
    >> new
    >> O/Ses. I think it was in Mary Jo Foley's blog, but I can't recall for sure
    >> (this might take a while to find).
    >>

    >
    > It's all noise and no substance, isn't it? I suppose the thinking is
    > that if the SPs had been called "new releases", then Microsoft could've
    > tried to squeeze even more cash from their unsuspecting customer base.


    Pay for alpha (RTM), beta (SP1) and final (SP2). What could be better for a
    cash cow?

    --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | Disclaimer: no SCO code used to generate this post
    http://Schestowitz.com | Free as in Free Beer | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    Cpu(s): 24.8%us, 4.0%sy, 1.0%ni, 66.1%id, 3.7%wa, 0.3%hi, 0.1%si, 0.0%st
    http://iuron.com - semantic engine to gather information

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