Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason tostick with Windows) - Linux

This is a discussion on Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason tostick with Windows) - Linux ; "Paul Hovnanian P.E." writes: > raylopez99 wrote: >> >> Let's assume that the poster Kelsey Bjarnason is correct about the >> wonderful capabilities of Linux. My followup question: how long does >> it take to learn Linux in order to ...

+ Reply to Thread
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 108

Thread: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason tostick with Windows)

  1. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    "Paul Hovnanian P.E." writes:

    > raylopez99 wrote:
    >>
    >> Let's assume that the poster Kelsey Bjarnason is correct about the
    >> wonderful capabilities of Linux. My followup question: how long does
    >> it take to learn Linux in order to do all the wonderful things
    >> outlined by Kelsey below? It took me--and keep in mind I've taken
    >> courses in rocket science--between 1 to 10 years to become really
    >> proficient in Windows (the upper bound is for stuff like
    >> programming). If I was to switch to Linux it would take me another 10
    >> years, if not more, to become proficient in Linux.

    >
    > On the other hand, I've been using various brands of Unix for almost 2
    > decades. I rarely use Windows, as most of the serious engineering apps
    > have never been ported to it.


    Don't forget to list these engineering apps - it would be interesting to
    know which huge market that 3rd party SW companies have ignored.

    >
    > So, should I take 10 years out to learn Windows? And what happens when
    > Microsoft decides to switch its underlying design philosophy around in
    > mid stream?


    --
    En realidad, los seguros de vida son seguros de muerte.
    -- Ramón Gomez de la Serna. (1888-1963) Escritor español.

  2. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    Hadron wrote:

    > thad05@tux.glaci.delete-this.com writes:
    >
    >> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
    >>>
    >>> Don't even get me started about the Windows look and feel cut and paste
    >>> crap that more and more Linux apps are adopting.

    >>
    >> My girlfriend went on a rant the other day about Windows not using
    >> the middle mouse button to paste. She has grown quite used to the
    >> Linux/X way of doing things and finds it quite annoying when she
    >> occasionally has to use someone's Windows box.
    >>
    >> Thad

    >
    > Oh for goodness sake.
    >


    Do you actually claim that getting used to some of the fine features of
    linux is a bad thing, "true linux advocate", "kernel hacker", "emacs
    user", "swapfile expert", "X specialist", "CUPS guru", "USB-disk server
    admin", "defragger professional", "newsreader magician", "hardware
    maven", "time coordinator" and "email sage" Hadron Quark, aka Hans
    Schneider, aka Richard, aka Damian O'Leary?

    Windows way of cutting/pasting *is* annoying when one works mainly with
    linux
    --
    Linux is not a desktop OS for people whose VCRs are still
    flashing "12:00". -- Paul Tomblin


  3. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    Peter Köhlmann writes:

    > Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> thad05@tux.glaci.delete-this.com writes:
    >>
    >>> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> Don't even get me started about the Windows look and feel cut and paste
    >>>> crap that more and more Linux apps are adopting.
    >>>
    >>> My girlfriend went on a rant the other day about Windows not using
    >>> the middle mouse button to paste. She has grown quite used to the
    >>> Linux/X way of doing things and finds it quite annoying when she
    >>> occasionally has to use someone's Windows box.
    >>>
    >>> Thad

    >>
    >> Oh for goodness sake.
    >>

    >
    > Do you actually claim that getting used to some of the fine features of
    > linux is a bad thing, "true linux advocate", "kernel hacker", "emacs


    No. Why? I just think that that comment is so mundane as to not worth
    mentioning.

    BTW which "linux" feature is this Peter?

    Or are you confusing desktop manager/window manager with the core OS
    again?

    But you knew that this is a X thing?

    And that it's ALSO available for Windows?

    You didn't? Oh dear me. Poor Peter.

    http://www.ghacks.net/2006/09/11/cop...-mouse-button/


  4. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    Hadron wrote:
    > Peter Khlmann writes:



    > But you knew that this is a X thing?
    >
    > And that it's ALSO available for Windows?
    >
    > You didn't? Oh dear me. Poor Peter.
    >
    > http://www.ghacks.net/2006/09/11/cop...-mouse-button/




    Or you point-click your IntelliMouse system to set your wheel-middle button
    to Paste

    http://www.angelfire.com/linux/dfs0/...ddle_paste.png




  5. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    On Monday 31 Dec 2007 11:51 am, Peter Köhlmann wrote in comp.os.linux.advocacy:

    > Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> thad05@tux.glaci.delete-this.com writes:
    >>
    >>> Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> Don't even get me started about the Windows look and feel cut and paste
    >>>> crap that more and more Linux apps are adopting.
    >>>
    >>> My girlfriend went on a rant the other day about Windows not using
    >>> the middle mouse button to paste. She has grown quite used to the
    >>> Linux/X way of doing things and finds it quite annoying when she
    >>> occasionally has to use someone's Windows box.
    >>>
    >>> Thad

    >>
    >> Oh for goodness sake.
    >>

    >
    > Do you actually claim that getting used to some of the fine features of
    > linux is a bad thing, "true linux advocate", "kernel hacker", "emacs
    > user", "swapfile expert", "X specialist", "CUPS guru", "USB-disk server
    > admin", "defragger professional", "newsreader magician", "hardware
    > maven", "time coordinator" and "email sage" Hadron Quark, aka Hans
    > Schneider, aka Richard, aka Damian O'Leary?
    >
    > Windows way of cutting/pasting *is* annoying when one works mainly with
    > linux


    Maybe Quack wants linux distros to be like M$ Windoze. From his whines & moans,
    & his "Windows apps are better than linux ones" it would seem so.

    --
    It takes time, this. One slight error in any of my thirteen billion
    calculations and we'll be blasted to smithereens.
    Here we go, then: 10, 9, 8, 6, 5--
    --Holly - Red Dwarf--

  6. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    "DFS" writes:

    > Hadron wrote:
    >> Peter Köhlmann writes:

    >
    >
    >> But you knew that this is a X thing?
    >>
    >> And that it's ALSO available for Windows?
    >>
    >> You didn't? Oh dear me. Poor Peter.
    >>
    >> http://www.ghacks.net/2006/09/11/cop...-mouse-button/

    >
    >
    >
    > Or you point-click your IntelliMouse system to set your wheel-middle button
    > to Paste
    >
    > http://www.angelfire.com/linux/dfs0/...ddle_paste.png



    Shhh!!!!

    I'm being accused of being negative about kewl "linux things" by Peter!

  7. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    * Tim Smith fired off this tart reply:

    > In article <4778648F.4FE803A0@hovnanian.com>,
    > "Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote:
    >> Don't even get me started about the Windows look and feel cut and paste
    >> crap that more and more Linux apps are adopting.
    >>
    >> If you can get both methods to work, fine. But I'm seeing more Linux
    >> apps that don't work any way other than the 'Windows Way'.

    >
    > The Windows way is the standard X way, and has been for many many many
    > years:
    >
    >


    You're nuts, Tim. Did you even /read/ the article, or did you stop
    reading at this paragraph:

    Contrary to what you may have come to believe, copying and pasting
    text under X11 works pretty much exactly the same way it does under
    MacOS and Windows. Really.

    . . .

    It happens that X11 programs have a second way of copying and pasting
    text that is orthogonal to the Edit/Copy way described above.

    --
    Tux rox!

  8. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    * thad05@tux.glaci.delete-this.com fired off this tart reply:

    > Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
    >>
    >> Don't even get me started about the Windows look and feel cut and paste
    >> crap that more and more Linux apps are adopting.

    >
    > My girlfriend went on a rant the other day about Windows not using
    > the middle mouse button to paste. She has grown quite used to the
    > Linux/X way of doing things and finds it quite annoying when she
    > occasionally has to use someone's Windows box.


    Other Windows annoyances (besides Hadron and DFS obtuseness, anyway):

    o Lack of auto-focus
    o Lack of auto-raise
    o Lack of virtual desktops
    o Lack of Alt-mouse window movement and resizing (although the
    Alt-Space menu is a decent alternative, though not usable if
    the title-bar isn't visible.)

    And I've gotten quite fond of Fluxbox's window handling.

    Questions:

    1. Can you customize the Windows desktop keystrokes?

    2. Where can you find help for the Windows desktop keystrokes?

    --
    Tux rox!

  9. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    * DFS fired off this tart reply:

    > Hadron wrote:
    >> Peter Khlmann writes:

    >
    >
    >> But you knew that this is a X thing?
    >> And that it's ALSO available for Windows?
    >> You didn't? Oh dear me. Poor Peter.
    >>
    >> http://www.ghacks.net/2006/09/11/cop...-mouse-button/


    Cool!

    Did Microsoft provide this innovative technology?

    Apparently it is not quite the same as X, though. You have to hit the
    middle-button once to /copy/ the text, and once to /paste/ it.

    Yeah, I'm sure that will comfort the typical X Windows user, who expects
    the first middle-button click to /paste/ it.

    And here's a comment on it:

    Sadly, this application overrides the other middle-mouse button
    functions, and it\u2019s somewhat unnerving to discover that it must
    come to this price.

    > Or you point-click your IntelliMouse system to set your wheel-middle button
    > to Paste
    >
    > http://www.angelfire.com/linux/dfs0/...ddle_paste.png


    That handles only the pasting side, unfortunately.

    Nice try, though.

    --
    Tux rox!

  10. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    Linonut wrote:

    > * DFS fired off this tart reply:
    >
    >> Hadron wrote:
    >>> Peter Köhlmann writes:

    >>
    >>
    >>> But you knew that this is a X thing?
    >>> And that it's ALSO available for Windows?
    >>> You didn't? Oh dear me. Poor Peter.
    >>>
    >>> http://www.ghacks.net/2006/09/11/cop...-mouse-button/

    >
    > Cool!
    >
    > Did Microsoft provide this innovative technology?
    >
    > Apparently it is not quite the same as X, though. You have to hit the
    > middle-button once to /copy/ the text, and once to /paste/ it.
    >
    > Yeah, I'm sure that will comfort the typical X Windows user, who expects
    > the first middle-button click to /paste/ it.
    >
    > And here's a comment on it:
    >
    > Sadly, this application overrides the other middle-mouse button
    > functions, and it\u2019s somewhat unnerving to discover that it must
    > come to this price.


    Hadron expects actually that I use a program like that?
    Why not ask directly to install the next round of malware willingly?
    Apart from disabling functions which are needed more

    >> Or you point-click your IntelliMouse system to set your wheel-middle
    >> button to Paste
    >>
    >> http://www.angelfire.com/linux/dfs0/...ddle_paste.png

    >
    > That handles only the pasting side, unfortunately.
    >
    > Nice try, though.
    >


    And totally useless for anyone without IntelliMouse

    So, no, still no viable windows alternative provided

    Poor Hadron
    --
    Windows: Because everyone needs a good laugh!


  11. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >> Do you actually claim that getting used to some of the fine features of
    >> linux is a bad thing, "true linux advocate", "kernel hacker", "emacs

    >
    > No. Why? I just think that that comment is so mundane as to not worth
    > mentioning.


    Humble appologies... I promise to strive for stomach twisting excitement
    in all future posts. :P Seriously, the GF prefers the X middle-button
    paste and claims she can work faster without having to hit the keyboard
    or hunt through drag down menus. Chalk it up to 'people like and are
    more productive with what they are used to' if you wish. I am just
    relaying some second hand Linux advocacy. You prefer I go do it in
    alt.os.ms.windows.my.pc.is.borked?

    Thad
    --
    Yeah, I drank the Open Source cool-aid... Unlike the other brand, it had
    all the ingredients on the label.

  12. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    In article ,
    Linonut wrote:
    > > The Windows way is the standard X way, and has been for many many many
    > > years:
    > >
    > >

    >
    > You're nuts, Tim. Did you even /read/ the article, or did you stop
    > reading at this paragraph:
    >
    > Contrary to what you may have come to believe, copying and pasting
    > text under X11 works pretty much exactly the same way it does under
    > MacOS and Windows. Really.
    >
    > . . .
    >
    > It happens that X11 programs have a second way of copying and pasting
    > text that is orthogonal to the Edit/Copy way described above.


    I don't consider that to be copy and paste. It is something...else.
    It's more grab and paste. Consider that if you select something, it is
    not actually copied anywhere at that point. If you go to another app,
    and the first app exists, you can't paste it in, for example. If the
    first app is still running, however, then you can have it go and grab
    the selection from the first app and enter it.

    But woe until you if you happen to select something in the destination
    app first--now you've lost the selection in the first app.

    But if you want to be pedantic (the pedantic side is strong in you...you
    will come over to the pedantic side sometime...don't fight it...), then
    I should have said the Windows way is *a* standard X way, and has been
    so for many many many years.

    --
    --Tim Smith

  13. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    * Tim Smith fired off this tart reply:

    > I don't consider that to be copy and paste. It is something...else.
    > It's more grab and paste. Consider that if you select something, it is
    > not actually copied anywhere at that point. If you go to another app,
    > and the first app exists, you can't paste it in, for example. If the
    > first app is still running, however, then you can have it go and grab
    > the selection from the first app and enter it.


    I'm not sure what the heck you are saying in the paragraph above. It
    doesn't make sense to me.

    > But woe until you if you happen to select something in the destination
    > app first--now you've lost the selection in the first app.


    True. However, if you're running Gnome, the gnome clipboard will have
    all selections (I think -- I've only seen that when running gnome-session
    under fluxbox. Gnome-session takes over the clipboard. After I learned
    that, I switch back to using xfce-mcs-manager).

    And if you are not running Gnome, you can always run xclipboard, a
    primitive-looking (you can fix it up with some standard X options like
    -geometry, -fn, -fg, and -bg, of course) but quite useful little
    app.

    It can even grab stuff that Edit/Copy-only web pages or apps will copy.
    (I've had Firefox selections give me an <> in certain
    web pages, and this case requires using Edit/Copy).

    > But if you want to be pedantic (the pedantic side is strong in you...you
    > will come over to the pedantic side sometime...don't fight it...), then
    > I should have said the Windows way is *a* standard X way, and has been
    > so for many many many years.


    If so, that would seem to be by chance . Anyway, I've grown to
    prefer the X Windows middle-click mantra to the One Windows Way. As
    I've said before, I find Windows pretty confining now. And I can't be
    "arsed" to go out of my way to track down some shareware to cope with
    Windows deficiencies.

    --
    Tux rox!

  14. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason tostick with Windows)

    Linonut wrote:
    >

    [snip]

    > If so, that would seem to be by chance . Anyway, I've grown to
    > prefer the X Windows middle-click mantra to the One Windows Way. As
    > I've said before, I find Windows pretty confining now. And I can't be
    > "arsed" to go out of my way to track down some shareware to cope with
    > Windows deficiencies.


    And try selecting/pasting between clients running on different Windows
    systems. Oh, wait. You can't even direct multiple Windows hosts to a
    single display (without major hacks or 3rd party s/w).

    You can do the above between any clients that use X as a native display,
    regardless of their underlying O/S. In fact, (with the aforementioned
    major hacks and 3rd party s/w), a Windows desktop can be displayed as a
    single window on an X display. And then the standard X select/paste
    operations using mouse buttons alone work.

    > --
    > Tux rox!


    --
    Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    The world is coming to an end. Please log off.

  15. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)


    "Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
    news:477EE959.B83509AB@hovnanian.com...
    > Linonut wrote:
    >>

    > [snip]
    >
    >> If so, that would seem to be by chance . Anyway, I've grown to
    >> prefer the X Windows middle-click mantra to the One Windows Way. As
    >> I've said before, I find Windows pretty confining now. And I can't be
    >> "arsed" to go out of my way to track down some shareware to cope with
    >> Windows deficiencies.

    >
    > And try selecting/pasting between clients running on different Windows
    > systems. Oh, wait. You can't even direct multiple Windows hosts to a
    > single display (without major hacks or 3rd party s/w).
    >

    Works just fine on Windows. Use Remote Desktop to connect to a number of
    other Windows machines. Then you can cut/paste between them all you want.

    ..


  16. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    * Paul Hovnanian P.E. fired off this tart reply:

    > You can do the above between any clients that use X as a native display,
    > regardless of their underlying O/S. In fact, (with the aforementioned
    > major hacks and 3rd party s/w), a Windows desktop can be displayed as a
    > single window on an X display. And then the standard X select/paste
    > operations using mouse buttons alone work.


    You can set up VMware so that a Ctrl-C (copy) of text in Windows can
    then be middle-click pasted into a document.

    --
    This sig has expired. Please reactivate your sig by paying $0.25
    and entering the 30-character activation key that will be emailed to
    your account.

  17. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    * amicus_curious fired off this tart reply:

    > "Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
    > news:477EE959.B83509AB@hovnanian.com...
    >> Linonut wrote:
    >>
    >>> If so, that would seem to be by chance . Anyway, I've grown to
    >>> prefer the X Windows middle-click mantra to the One Windows Way. As
    >>> I've said before, I find Windows pretty confining now. And I can't be
    >>> "arsed" to go out of my way to track down some shareware to cope with
    >>> Windows deficiencies.

    >>
    >> And try selecting/pasting between clients running on different Windows
    >> systems. Oh, wait. You can't even direct multiple Windows hosts to a
    >> single display (without major hacks or 3rd party s/w).
    >>

    > Works just fine on Windows. Use Remote Desktop to connect to a number of
    > other Windows machines. Then you can cut/paste between them all you want.


    Maybe Paul thinks RDP is a "major hack". (If so, then so is VNC on
    Windwos ).

    By default (at least in my usage of RDP at home to connect from Linux to
    an XP box), the RDP logon kicks off the current user of the XP
    desktop. I assume that's a function of XP Pro not being a server, and
    hence not being licensed for multiple simultaneous users.

    This feature matrix indicates that RDP is pretty feature-full compared
    to other remoting protocols, although the union of protocols featured
    for X WIndows seems to match the feature set of RDP.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...sktop_software

    Has anyone here used Sun Secure Global Desktop?

    --
    This sig has expired. Please reactivate your sig by paying $0.25
    and entering the 30-character activation key that will be emailed to
    your account.

  18. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reasonto stick with Windows)

    On Jan 5, 11:03 am, Linonut wrote:
    > * amicus_curious fired off this tart reply:
    > > "Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message


    > >> And try selecting/pasting between clients running on different Windows
    > >> systems. Oh, wait. You can't even direct multiple Windows hosts to a
    > >> single display (without major hacks or 3rd party s/w).

    >
    > > Works just fine on Windows. Use Remote Desktop to connect to a number of
    > > other Windows machines. Then you can cut/paste between them all you want.

    >
    > Maybe Paul thinks RDP is a "major hack". (If so, then so is VNC on
    > Windwos ).


    He might not think so, but Microsoft does. If you read the Windows XP
    EULA very carefully, Microsoft forbids remote access of the desktop
    from a machine that is not licensed with Windows XP. So even if you
    put VNC server on a dozen Windows workstations, you can't access any
    them from a Linux system, unless the box was purchased with an XP
    Professional license.

    I'm not sure how Microsoft gets away with that, given that they are
    expressly forbidden by the DOJ settlement from taking actions that
    exclude Linux users from accessing Windows servers, even if those
    servers are workstations, but that doesn't seem to stop Microsoft, and
    the Bush administration doesn't seem to think this is a problem.

    > By default (at least in my usage of RDP at home to connect from Linux to
    > an XP box), the RDP logon kicks off the current user off the XP
    > desktop.


    There are actually several products which will allow a Linux user to
    access a Windows console, but Microsoft's license mandates that the
    Linux box must be licensed for Windows XP.

    Vista doesn't even allow this. In fact, the Vista license expressly
    forbids calling any Vista library function from any system other than
    Vista, even if the machine also runs Linux. If you buy Vista Business
    edition, you can run Vista as a virtual client, but then again, who
    would want to, it's a memory pig.

    > I assume that's a function of XP Pro not being a server, and
    > hence not being licensed for multiple simultaneous users.


    Actually, it's a restriction in the workstation, and even though you
    only have one user accessing the remote workstation, the workstation
    has to be licensed for Windows XP. Perhaps this is why so many Linux
    users order their machines with Windows XP preinstalled.



  19. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason tostick with Windows)

    amicus_curious wrote:
    >
    > "Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
    > news:477EE959.B83509AB@hovnanian.com...
    > > Linonut wrote:
    > >>

    > > [snip]
    > >
    > >> If so, that would seem to be by chance . Anyway, I've grown to
    > >> prefer the X Windows middle-click mantra to the One Windows Way. As
    > >> I've said before, I find Windows pretty confining now. And I can't be
    > >> "arsed" to go out of my way to track down some shareware to cope with
    > >> Windows deficiencies.

    > >
    > > And try selecting/pasting between clients running on different Windows
    > > systems. Oh, wait. You can't even direct multiple Windows hosts to a
    > > single display (without major hacks or 3rd party s/w).
    > >

    > Works just fine on Windows. Use Remote Desktop to connect to a number of
    > other Windows machines. Then you can cut/paste between them all you want.


    Sorry. The stuff I need isn't on Windows machines.

    And its a nightmare of license restrictions and EULAs to access Windows
    machines from non-Windows systems or vice versa. Its just not worth our
    time.

    --
    Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    I love guns. Its bullets that I can't stand.

  20. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason tostick with Windows)

    Linonut wrote:
    >
    > * Paul Hovnanian P.E. fired off this tart reply:
    >
    > > You can do the above between any clients that use X as a native display,
    > > regardless of their underlying O/S. In fact, (with the aforementioned
    > > major hacks and 3rd party s/w), a Windows desktop can be displayed as a
    > > single window on an X display. And then the standard X select/paste
    > > operations using mouse buttons alone work.

    >
    > You can set up VMware so that a Ctrl-C (copy) of text in Windows can
    > then be middle-click pasted into a document.


    Too many extra keystrokes. I can just feel my carpal tunnel flaring up
    thinking about it

    --
    Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Life is like an analogy.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3 4 5 6 LastLast