Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason tostick with Windows) - Linux

This is a discussion on Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason tostick with Windows) - Linux ; Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote: > On the other hand, I've been using various brands of Unix for almost 2 > decades. I rarely use Windows, as most of the serious engineering apps > have never been ported to it. Which ...

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Thread: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason tostick with Windows)

  1. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:

    > On the other hand, I've been using various brands of Unix for almost 2
    > decades. I rarely use Windows, as most of the serious engineering apps
    > have never been ported to it.


    Which apps?




  2. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reasonto stick with Windows)

    On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 08:42:23 -0800, raylopez99 wrote:


    > I want others to pay, but not me. MSFT can tighten its security on its
    > end to make their keys less hackable--that's their problem not mine.


    It's a pointless discussion -- you'll engage in piracy to save a few
    pennies so that you can "buy" the product which an investment of yours
    manufactures, and then you say it's "their" problem when you're an
    investor which makes you one of "them".


    -Thufir

  3. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    >Worthless wrote:
    >>
    >> I want others to pay, but not me. MSFT can tighten its security on its
    >> end to make their keys less hackable--that's their problem not mine.


    Wow. A wintroll who lacks ethics. What a shock.


  4. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reasonto stick with Windows)

    On Dec 27, 1:58*pm, Rex Ballard wrote:
    > On Dec 26, 6:29 pm, raylopez99 wrote:> On Dec 26, 1:31 pm, Rex Ballard wrote:
    >
    > > Nice thumbnail history Ballard.

    >
    > Thank you.
    >
    > > So when are you going to try Windows for a change?

    >
    > I use BOTH Windows AND Linux. *My Z61P runs both Linux and Windows
    > using virtualization. *My T40 runs Linux exclusively.
    >


    OK, thanks. If you know of any decent development tools for C++ with
    an emphasis on SQL language I might give Linux a whirl. I'm learning
    SQL programming now, and it seems the emphasis is on the GUI front end
    rather than the ANSI-standard SQL back end (Microsoft has excellent
    GUIs/APIs in the Access 2003 (Visual Basic) and SQL Server 2005
    (C#.NET) languages, which is pretty cute), so I'm curious what whiz-
    bang GUI/API the LInux folks use for the front end...I notice even
    Oracle uses their own programming API/language for their version of
    SQL. ..maybe I'll make this a seperate thread.

    RL

  5. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reasonto stick with Windows)

    On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 10:06:56 -0800, raylopez99 wrote:

    > I'm curious what whiz-
    > bang GUI/API the LInux folks use for the front end.


    Do mean a GUI interface to a db like <https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/
    firefox/addon/5817>? There's always if
    you're doing a web app.


    -Thufir

  6. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reasonto stick with Windows)

    On Dec 28, 2:02*pm, Thufir wrote:
    > On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 10:06:56 -0800, raylopez99 wrote:
    > > I'm curious what whiz-
    > > bang GUI/API the LInux folks use for the front end.

    >
    > Do mean a GUI interface to a db like <https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/
    > firefox/addon/5817>? *There's always if
    > you're doing a web app.
    >
    > -Thufir



    Eh-gawd Thufir, I thank you for the links, but the below "Ruby on
    Rails"blurb reminds me too much of Microsoft's "MFC" library, where
    there was a "Document/View" architecture. Nothing wrong with that,
    but two things: (1) it took several years to master the "doc/view"
    architecture, and, (2) every several years these architectures are
    superceeded. In the case of Doc/View, the .NET "Forms" architecture
    by MSFT has superceeded it (.Forms is much more easy to use, and
    powerful, though due to the legacy programmers out there, I hear next
    year MSFT will upgrade the MFC Doc/View library to make it more .NET
    Visual Studio friendly).

    In short, I don't need another 10 wasted years learning the locked in,
    closed, proprietary "Ruby on Rails" Linux architecture to write code
    that less than 1% of the computing public can see.

    Sorry.

    RL

    Rails is a full-stack framework for developing database-backed web
    applications according to the Model-View-Control pattern. From the
    Ajax in the view, to the request and response in the controller, to
    the domain model wrapping the database, Rails gives you a pure-Ruby
    development environment. To go live, all you need to add is a database
    and a web server.

  7. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reasonto stick with Windows)

    On Dec 28, 1:06 pm, raylopez99 wrote:
    > On Dec 27, 1:58 pm, RexBallard wrote:
    >
    > > On Dec 26, 6:29 pm, raylopez99 wrote:> On Dec 26, 1:31 pm, RexBallard wrote:

    >
    > > > Nice thumbnail historyBallard.

    >
    > > Thank you.

    >
    > > > So when are you going to try Windows for a change?

    >
    > > I use BOTH Windows AND Linux. My Z61P runs both Linux and Windows
    > > using virtualization. My T40 runs Linux exclusively.

    >
    > OK, thanks. If you know of any decent development tools for C++ with
    > an emphasis on SQL language I might give Linux a whirl. I'm learning
    > SQL programming now, and it seems the emphasis is on the GUI front end
    > rather than the ANSI-standard SQL back end (Microsoft has excellent
    > GUIs/APIs in the Access 2003 (Visual Basic) and SQL Server 2005
    > (C#.NET) languages, which is pretty cute), so I'm curious what whiz-
    > bang GUI/API the LInux folks use for the front end...I notice even
    > Oracle uses their own programming API/language for their version of
    > SQL. ..maybe I'll make this a seperate thread.
    >
    > RL


    I replied in your other thread.

  8. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason tostick with Windows)

    Rex Ballard wrote:
    >
    > On Dec 26, 2:10 pm, Thufir wrote:
    > > On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 06:23:30 -0800, raylopez99 wrote:
    > > > Yes, good point. As a MSFT shareholder, I'm pleased that virtual OSes
    > > > are finally being pursued seriously by Microsoft. After all, who cares
    > > > if you want to switch to Linux or Unix or Mac OS from inside a Windows
    > > > OS shell--as long as MSFT corporation gets the royalty.

    >
    > Even if you decide to install Linux as the primary operating system,
    > if you have to upgrade to Vista Business edition, even to install XP
    > Professional, then Microsoft has actually found a way to generate MORE
    > revenue from LINUX users who want to be able to run Linux and Windows
    > concurrently on the same machine.


    Have to? Upgrade?

    There isn't much call for Windows in the business I'm in.


    --
    Paul Hovnanian paul@hovnanian.com
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Procrastinators: The leaders for tomorrow.

  9. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reasonto stick with Windows)

    On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 14:07:32 -0800, raylopez99 wrote:


    > In short, I don't need another 10 wasted years learning the locked in,
    > closed, proprietary "Ruby on Rails" Linux architecture to write code
    > that less than 1% of the computing public can see.


    ROFL. Are you talking about programming or a GUI for a db?


    -Thufir

  10. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reasonto stick with Windows)

    On Dec 28, 2:07 pm, raylopez99 wrote:
    [...]
    > Eh-gawd Thufir, I thank you for the links, but the below "Ruby on
    > Rails"blurb reminds me too much of Microsoft's "MFC" library, where
    > there was a "Document/View" architecture.

    [...]

    Do you mean http://www.c-sharpcorner.com/UploadF...MVCDesign.aspx
    ?

    Model-View-Controller is ?25? years old and doesn't appear to be going
    anywhere.



    -Thufir

  11. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    "Paul Hovnanian P.E." writes:

    > raylopez99 wrote:
    >>
    >> Let's assume that the poster Kelsey Bjarnason is correct about the
    >> wonderful capabilities of Linux. My followup question: how long does
    >> it take to learn Linux in order to do all the wonderful things
    >> outlined by Kelsey below? It took me--and keep in mind I've taken
    >> courses in rocket science--between 1 to 10 years to become really
    >> proficient in Windows (the upper bound is for stuff like
    >> programming). If I was to switch to Linux it would take me another 10
    >> years, if not more, to become proficient in Linux.

    >
    > On the other hand, I've been using various brands of Unix for almost 2
    > decades. I rarely use Windows, as most of the serious engineering apps
    > have never been ported to it.


    Which "serious engineering" apps would you be talking about here? Be
    precise and tell us - please do.
    >
    > So, should I take 10 years out to learn Windows? And what happens when


    "learn windows"?!?!? What do you mean? it is a desktop OS. You learn the
    apps which are designed to integrate with the OS.

    > Microsoft decides to switch its underlying design philosophy around in
    > mid stream?


    Whatever that means.

  12. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    Rex Ballard writes:

    > There doesn't seem to be one. One of the problems with a monopoly
    > market is that if you MUST have the monopoly product, the supplier can
    > pretty much charge as much as they would like.


    Any supplier can charge as much as they want. People will vote with
    their wallets. For goodness sake - Ubuntu/Debian are Free and free. I
    use them. Others can too. There is NO monopoly.
    >
    > It's quite possible that Dell, HP, Lenovo, and Acer are making more
    > noise about Linux to get a better terms from Microsoft on these
    > "transition" configurations.



    *snip more King Maker Ballard nonsense*

  13. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reasonto stick with Windows)

    On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:25:00 +0100, Hadron wrote:

    > Rex Ballard writes:
    >
    >> There doesn't seem to be one. One of the problems with a monopoly
    >> market is that if you MUST have the monopoly product, the supplier can
    >> pretty much charge as much as they would like.

    >
    > Any supplier can charge as much as they want. People will vote with
    > their wallets. For goodness sake - Ubuntu/Debian are Free and free. I
    > use them. Others can too. There is NO monopoly.


    Microsoft has been found to be a monopoly by courts on 2 continents. It
    has been found to wield monopoly power and to have done so illegally.

    >>
    >> It's quite possible that Dell, HP, Lenovo, and Acer are making more
    >> noise about Linux to get a better terms from Microsoft on these
    >> "transition" configurations.

    >
    >
    > *snip more King Maker Ballard nonsense*






    --
    Rick

  14. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    CLI Warrior Paul Hovnanian wrote:
    >
    > I'm not as interested on propagating Linux to every desktop as others
    > might be. What I am interested in doing is to separate the business
    > and professional desktops from the toys.


    http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

    You've been granted your wish.


    > the end users. In some cases, I've seen companies forced
    > to abandon some very interesting technologies in order to get their
    > "100% Microsoft" certification.
    >


    Of course you have Rexx.



  15. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    ray espoused:
    > On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 08:35:35 -0800, raylopez99 wrote:
    >
    >> Let's assume that the poster Kelsey Bjarnason is correct about the
    >> wonderful capabilities of Linux. My followup question: how long does
    >> it take to learn Linux in order to do all the wonderful things
    >> outlined by Kelsey below? It took me--and keep in mind I've taken
    >> courses in rocket science--between 1 to 10 years to become really
    >> proficient in Windows (the upper bound is for stuff like
    >> programming). If I was to switch to Linux it would take me another 10
    >> years, if not more, to become proficient in Linux.
    >>
    >> Another reason--of many--to stick with Windows--the steep learning
    >> curve associated with Linux.
    >>

    >
    > Geez - I did not realize I was so intelligent. It took me only a matter of
    > a few weeks. You must really be a dolt.
    >
    >


    Why does everyone seem to get the learning curve thing the wrong way
    around? If the curve is steep, then it implies very rapid and easy
    learning. If it's shallow, it implies that it takes a very long time to
    learn.

    I learnt all that long ago.

    --
    | Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
    | Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
    | Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
    | My (new) blog: http://www.thereisnomagic.org |

  16. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:

    > On the other hand, I've been using various brands of Unix for almost 2
    > decades. I rarely use Windows, as most of the serious engineering apps
    > have never been ported to it.


    Which apps?




  17. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    In article <4778648F.4FE803A0@hovnanian.com>,
    "Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote:
    > Don't even get me started about the Windows look and feel cut and paste
    > crap that more and more Linux apps are adopting.
    >
    > > But making certain Linux DMs/GUIs "usable" and "stable" and "intuitive"
    > > is not "dumbing down" - it's making it WORK, and making it APPEAL.

    >
    > I'd say that forcing people to highlight, then Alt-C, Alt-V (or whatever
    > the magic key combo happens to be), or worse yet, go hunting through
    > menus for the Cut or Copy function, is much less intuitive than the
    > classic Motif mouse gestures.
    >
    > If you can get both methods to work, fine. But I'm seeing more Linux
    > apps that don't work any way other than the 'Windows Way'.


    The Windows way is the standard X way, and has been for many many many
    years:





    --
    --Tim Smith

  18. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
    >
    > Don't even get me started about the Windows look and feel cut and paste
    > crap that more and more Linux apps are adopting.


    My girlfriend went on a rant the other day about Windows not using
    the middle mouse button to paste. She has grown quite used to the
    Linux/X way of doing things and finds it quite annoying when she
    occasionally has to use someone's Windows box.

    Thad
    --
    Yeah, I drank the Open Source cool-aid... Unlike the other brand, it had
    all the ingredients on the label.

  19. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    thad05@tux.glaci.delete-this.com writes:

    > Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
    >>
    >> Don't even get me started about the Windows look and feel cut and paste
    >> crap that more and more Linux apps are adopting.

    >
    > My girlfriend went on a rant the other day about Windows not using
    > the middle mouse button to paste. She has grown quite used to the
    > Linux/X way of doing things and finds it quite annoying when she
    > occasionally has to use someone's Windows box.
    >
    > Thad


    Oh for goodness sake.

    --
    En realidad, los seguros de vida son seguros de muerte.
    -- Ramón Gomez de la Serna. (1888-1963) Escritor español.

  20. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    "Paul Hovnanian P.E." writes:

    > Hadron wrote:
    > Don't even get me started about the Windows look and feel cut and paste
    > crap that more and more Linux apps are adopting.
    >
    >> But making certain Linux DMs/GUIs "usable" and "stable" and "intuitive"
    >> is not "dumbing down" - it's making it WORK, and making it APPEAL.

    >
    > I'd say that forcing people to highlight, then Alt-C, Alt-V (or whatever
    > the magic key combo happens to be), or worse yet, go hunting through
    > menus for the Cut or Copy function, is much less intuitive than the
    > classic Motif mouse gestures.


    LOL. You have to be joking. I almost NEVER touch the mouse.

    >
    > If you can get both methods to work, fine. But I'm seeing more Linux
    > apps that don't work any way other than the 'Windows Way'.


    You mean the classic way?

    >
    >> The more people who come to Linux the more it will improve.
    >>
    >> Isn't this NG ABOUT Linux advocacy?
    >>
    >> I lose track.


    --
    En realidad, los seguros de vida son seguros de muerte.
    -- Ramón Gomez de la Serna. (1888-1963) Escritor español.

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