Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason tostick with Windows) - Linux

This is a discussion on Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason tostick with Windows) - Linux ; Gregory Shearman writes: > Hadron wrote: > >> Sinister Midget writes: >> >>> On 2007-12-22, Gregory Shearman claimed: >>> >>>> Programming is the same on any platform, so you won't have to learn >>>> that. Therefore you would probably be ...

+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 108

Thread: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason tostick with Windows)

  1. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    Gregory Shearman writes:

    > Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> Sinister Midget writes:
    >>
    >>> On 2007-12-22, Gregory Shearman claimed:
    >>>
    >>>> Programming is the same on any platform, so you won't have to learn
    >>>> that. Therefore you would probably be proficient after one year.
    >>>
    >>> Gosh you're optimistic! Maybe you're right about the average person.
    >>> But raydopez??

    >>
    >> "programming" is not "the same" on every platform. It is true that good
    >> programmer will adapt relatively quickly. It is vastly different in many
    >> cases. Tools are different, the IDEs you must use (corporate policy) can
    >> be different and unless you are familiar with a cross platform API and
    >> are allowed to use it then APIs are different too.

    >
    > Jesus Quark. I've programmed in C on MS-DOS, VAX/VMS and Linux. IDE? Who
    > needs 'em? Tools? An editor and a compiler, the same on all platforms.


    You seem to have missed my point completely. Yes some tools CAN be the
    same - certainly the names can. But guess what, most companies dont use
    vi or emacs as their IDE. They might use Brief and the Intel Compiler or
    Eclipse or ..... the list is endless. But the tools are NOT the main
    issue here.

    Different platforms have different APIs and different paradigms when it
    comes to UI etc.

    But, As I said above , a GOOD programmer will adapt relatively
    quickly. But to say it is the same on all platforms is blatant nonsense.

    I have produced commercial SW on about 10 different platform types and
    there is always a familiarisation overhead.

    --
    BOFH excuse #113:

    Root nameservers are out of sync

  2. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    ray wrote:
    > On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:07:22 -0500, DFS wrote:


    >> ray, you need to get one of those '100 Things To Do When I Retire'
    >> list. Put 'Install Linux at the local library' as #1, then scratch
    >> it off and move on.

    >
    > That was not on my list of things to do when I retired - which was
    > about three and a half years ago - it just came along. However, I
    > have indeed done several of the things which were on my list. I have
    > moved on - however it seems to make an excellent point from time to
    > time, so, yes I bring it up as an example. What is the problem there?


    From 'time to time'? You mean every week for 3 straight years.

    And I don't see how it's an excellent example about the ease of learning
    Linux, when the interface for a public-access library terminal is extremely
    locked down and dumbed down. As I recall, the Windows machines at my local
    library have 2 big icons on the interface: one for catalog searches, and one
    for the Internet. That's it.




  3. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    * DFS fired off this tart reply:

    > Hadron wrote:
    >> ray writes:

    >
    >>> FWIW - we have about 300 library patrons who have made the switch
    >>> from MS to Linux without any guidance or warning. Zero complaints in
    >>> nearly three years of operation.

    >>
    >> Library story ++. What is it now? 20,000 times?

    >
    > He seems to have quit saying he installed them - now he just tells about
    > them.
    >
    > 6-9 Linux systems in a library, and he talks about it several hundred times.
    > Strange.


    No stranger than you parrotting "Microsoft makes the best software in
    the world" about 30 times more than ray tells his library story.

    Or Hadron writing a post with "Linonut" in it. Man, if I had a kid, I'd
    be worried about it becoming the "Linonut baby".

    --
    Tux rox!

  4. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    * Gregory Shearman fired off this tart reply:

    > Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> "programming" is not "the same" on every platform. It is true that good
    >> programmer will adapt relatively quickly. It is vastly different in many
    >> cases. Tools are different, the IDEs you must use (corporate policy) can
    >> be different and unless you are familiar with a cross platform API and
    >> are allowed to use it then APIs are different too.

    >
    > Jesus Quark. I've programmed in C on MS-DOS, VAX/VMS and Linux. IDE? Who
    > needs 'em? Tools? An editor and a compiler, the same on all platforms.


    Hell, you can use the same paradigm with shell scripts, Perl, Python,
    Ruby, and any other language out there.

    But Microsoft windroids want you to cripple yourself by using only the
    Visual Studio IDE, it seems.

    But you don't even need to use the IDE even for MS code. Our builds are
    done via batch file. Even Microsoft itself recognizes the utility of
    this method (though they perverted it by replacing make with the rather
    quirky invocation of devenv from the command line). Why can't its
    mavens/munchkins?

    --
    Tux rox!

  5. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    Linonut wrote:

    > No stranger than you parrotting "Microsoft makes the best software in
    > the world" about 30 times more than ray tells his library story.


    Some of the best.

    Results 1 - 10 of 55 from Jun 1, 2004 to Dec 23, 2007 for "best software"
    group:comp.os.linux.advocacy authorFS

    Results 1 - 10 of 43 from Jun 1, 2004 to Dec 23, 2007 for "best apps"
    group:comp.os.linux.advocacy authorFS

    Results 1 - 6 of 6 from Jun 1, 2004 to Dec 23, 2007 for "best programs"
    group:comp.os.linux.advocacy authorFS

    Results 1 - 3 of 3 from Jun 1, 2004 to Dec 23, 2007 for "best applications"
    group:comp.os.linux.advocacy authorFS

    Results 1 - 10 of 254 from Jun 1, 2004 to Dec 23, 2007 for "library"
    group:comp.os.linux.advocacy author:ray

    What's all this about 30x?


    btw, is this you 'ignoring my bull****'?



    > Or Hadron writing a post with "Linonut" in it. Man, if I had a kid,
    > I'd be worried about it becoming the "Linonut baby".


    ? You have a kid. She uses Windows. So does your wife. You're the odd
    man [out?] in your household !




  6. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 03:32:20 -0800, raylopez99 wrote:

    >
    > Kier--which book of the *three* are you now recommending? I still
    > can't get a straight answer out of you.


    What on Earth are you talking about? You didn't ask for a recommendation,
    as I recall, I merely gave you some good places to start *if* you were
    genuinely interested in Linux, rather than in trolling.

    Each book has different merits, there is no need to pick just one. They're
    all helpful.

    However, if I were pinned down to choosing only one, I would go for 'The
    Linux Phrasebook'. It's fairly comprehensive, and pocket-sized, so it vcan
    travel with you if needed.

    --
    Kier


  7. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    Linonut wrote:

    > But you don't even need to use the IDE even for MS code. *Our builds are
    > done via batch file. *Even Microsoft itself recognizes the utility of
    > this method (though they perverted it by replacing make with the rather
    > quirky invocation of devenv from the command line). *Why can't its
    > mavens/munchkins?
    >


    Yeah, they've had the commandline batchfile processing for years now. Looks
    like it's just the pretend programmers need to have their hands held.

    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  8. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    raylopez99 wrote:

    > On Dec 23, 3:25*am, Gregory Shearman wrote:
    >> Jesus Quark. I've programmed in C on MS-DOS, VAX/VMS and Linux. IDE? Who
    >> needs 'em? Tools? An editor and a compiler, the same on all platforms.
    >>
    >>

    >
    > C is a good language when dealing with a strange OS like Linux. For
    > the rest of us, we prefer something a little more user-friendly, like
    > Visual Studio.


    So, you are such a "great" programmer that you need hand-holding through the
    whole process....

    C is a good language on any machine.


    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  9. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 09:13:05 -0500, DFS wrote:

    > ray wrote:
    >> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:07:22 -0500, DFS wrote:

    >
    >>> ray, you need to get one of those '100 Things To Do When I Retire'
    >>> list. Put 'Install Linux at the local library' as #1, then scratch
    >>> it off and move on.

    >>
    >> That was not on my list of things to do when I retired - which was
    >> about three and a half years ago - it just came along. However, I
    >> have indeed done several of the things which were on my list. I have
    >> moved on - however it seems to make an excellent point from time to
    >> time, so, yes I bring it up as an example. What is the problem there?

    >
    > From 'time to time'? You mean every week for 3 straight years.


    Could you give actual references? I think I may have skipped a week here
    and there.

    >
    > And I don't see how it's an excellent example about the ease of learning
    > Linux, when the interface for a public-access library terminal is extremely
    > locked down and dumbed down. As I recall, the Windows machines at my local
    > library have 2 big icons on the interface: one for catalog searches, and one
    > for the Internet. That's it.


    Actually, they aren't. The systems are pretty wide open. The only changes
    I've made to a stock Ubuntu install were:

    1) add abiword and gnumeric as they are 'lighter' than OpenOffice apps.
    2) implement Dan's Guardian to do internet content filtering as pretty
    much required for systems accessible to children in a public place.
    3) implemented a one hour session limit by utilizing timeoutd.

    We have a number of patrons who download, for example, tax forms and other
    forms and print them out. We also have quite a number who have worked on
    written documents which they've either started elsewhere or taken
    elsewhere to complete or turn in assignments.

    With MS machines, yes, you have to very careful. The library administrator
    has told me that before Linux, when they used MS on less fewer public
    access computers, she was invariably called to the floor several times a
    day to help patrons with internet problems of one sort or another. Now,
    she is not called - at least for the nine Linux computers.


  10. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    Linonut writes:

    > * Gregory Shearman fired off this tart reply:
    >
    >> Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >>> "programming" is not "the same" on every platform. It is true that good
    >>> programmer will adapt relatively quickly. It is vastly different in many
    >>> cases. Tools are different, the IDEs you must use (corporate policy) can
    >>> be different and unless you are familiar with a cross platform API and
    >>> are allowed to use it then APIs are different too.

    >>
    >> Jesus Quark. I've programmed in C on MS-DOS, VAX/VMS and Linux. IDE? Who
    >> needs 'em? Tools? An editor and a compiler, the same on all platforms.

    >
    > Hell, you can use the same paradigm with shell scripts, Perl, Python,
    > Ruby, and any other language out there.


    There is no paradigm regarding those.I distinctly said "corporate
    policy" indicating to all but the most entrenched COLA advocate that not
    all people use or are able to use the same OSS/Gnus development tools
    from platform/project to project.

    I said the APIs and the platform specifics. Clearly shell scripts to do
    things like manipulate images via a GNU library will be similar. But
    writing cutting edge C/C++ from platform to platform? Sure *SOME* use
    common cross platform APIs (as you claim to) but most do not when it
    comes to UIs. A LOT is and can be similar. But it is not "the same" as
    claimed.



  11. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    * DFS fired off this tart reply:

    > Linonut wrote:
    >
    > btw, is this you 'ignoring my bull****'?


    Nope. At this point, I hadn't made my resolution.

    I did break it a few minutes earlier, though.

    So sue me.

    > ? You have a kid. She uses Windows. So does your wife. You're the odd
    > man [out?] in your household !


    Indeed. Family dynamics are a funny thing. I think half the reason
    they don't (often) use Linux is to spite me .

    --
    Tux rox!

  12. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    Linonut wrote:
    > * DFS fired off this tart reply:
    >
    >> Linonut wrote:
    >>
    >> btw, is this you 'ignoring my bull****'?

    >
    > Nope. At this point, I hadn't made my resolution.
    >
    > I did break it a few minutes earlier, though.
    >
    > So sue me.


    Make ignoring DFS your New Year's resolution.

    I tried to unsubscribe from cola more than once. It never lasted more than
    a day.



    >> ? You have a kid. She uses Windows. So does your wife. You're
    >> the odd man [out?] in your household !

    >
    > Indeed. Family dynamics are a funny thing. I think half the reason
    > they don't (often) use Linux is to spite me .


    I'm with you there. My wife is disdainful of lots of my recommendations:
    food, movies, music, clothing.




  13. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reasonto stick with Windows)

    On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 03:32:20 -0800, raylopez99 wrote:


    > C is a good language when dealing with a strange OS like Linux. For the
    > rest of us, we prefer something a little more user-friendly, like Visual
    > Studio.


    I didn't realize that Microsoft Windows was written in Visual Studio.



    -Thufir

  14. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    On 2007-12-24, Thufir claimed:
    > On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 03:32:20 -0800, raylopez99 wrote:
    >
    >
    >> C is a good language when dealing with a strange OS like Linux. For the
    >> rest of us, we prefer something a little more user-friendly, like Visual
    >> Studio.

    >
    > I didn't realize that Microsoft Windows was written in Visual Studio.


    It isn't. It's written in crayon, with a little paste added in.

    --
    I bought a new camouflage shirt and now I can't find it!

  15. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason tostick with Windows)

    raylopez99 wrote:
    >
    > Let's assume that the poster Kelsey Bjarnason is correct about the
    > wonderful capabilities of Linux. My followup question: how long does
    > it take to learn Linux in order to do all the wonderful things
    > outlined by Kelsey below? It took me--and keep in mind I've taken
    > courses in rocket science--between 1 to 10 years to become really
    > proficient in Windows (the upper bound is for stuff like
    > programming). If I was to switch to Linux it would take me another 10
    > years, if not more, to become proficient in Linux.


    On the other hand, I've been using various brands of Unix for almost 2
    decades. I rarely use Windows, as most of the serious engineering apps
    have never been ported to it.

    So, should I take 10 years out to learn Windows? And what happens when
    Microsoft decides to switch its underlying design philosophy around in
    mid stream?

    --
    Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    And the beast shall come forth surrounded by a roiling cloud of
    vengeance.
    The house of the unbelievers shall be razed and they shall be scorched
    to
    the earth. Their tags shall blink until the end of days.
    --The Book of Mozilla, 12:10

  16. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reasonto stick with Windows)

    On Dec 24, 11:52*pm, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote:

    > On the other hand, I've been using various brands of Unix for almost 2
    > decades. I rarely use Windows, as most of the serious engineering apps
    > have never been ported to it.
    >
    > So, should I take 10 years out to learn Windows? And what happens when
    > Microsoft decides to switch its underlying design philosophy around in
    > mid stream?
    >


    Yes, good point. As a MSFT shareholder, I'm pleased that virtual OSes
    are finally being pursued seriously by Microsoft. After all, who
    cares if you want to switch to Linux or Unix or Mac OS from inside a
    Windows OS shell--as long as MSFT corporation gets the royalty.

    RL

  17. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reasonto stick with Windows)

    On Dec 21, 11:35 am, raylopez99 wrote:
    > Let's assume that the poster Kelsey Bjarnason is correct about the
    > wonderful capabilities of Linux.


    He is.

    > My followup question: how long does
    > it take to learn Linux in order to do all the wonderful things
    > outlined by Kelsey below?


    One can become fully functional on a pre-installed Linux machine in a
    few hours. There are minor differences which will take very little
    extra effort to learn. It's about the same as upgrading from Windows
    XP to Vista, or Windows 2000 to Windows XP or Windows 95 to Windows
    NT.

    This would give you the same capabilities you have on a Windows
    machine.
    But that's just the tip of the iceberg.

    > It took me--and keep in mind I've taken
    > courses in rocket science--between 1 to 10 years to become really
    > proficient in Windows (the upper bound is for stuff like
    > programming).


    Part of the problem with Windows is that you always had that moving
    target. What was a "well behaved" application in 1990 was wrong with
    the release of Windows 3.1. There were new features like OLE, COM,
    DCOM, COM+, MSMQ, MTS, VBA, VB, JavaScript, ActiveScript, ActiveX. and
    you had to learn all of this in Visual BASIC, Visual C++, Visual Java,
    and Visual C#.

    On the other hand, if you did all of this, you also learned some
    fundamental principles. You learned to read library functions, you
    learned how to structure programs, you learned control structures, and
    you learned how to test and debug complex programs based on simpler
    functions.

    > If I was to switch to Linux it would take me another 10
    > years, if not more, to become proficient in Linux.


    Linux is actually pretty easy to learn. The challenge is the
    applications.
    If Microsoft included 30,000 applications, would you really want to
    learn ALL of them? On the other hand, if your favorite application
    actually 20 other applications that you didn't know about, but worked
    perfectly, would you really care?

    The strength of Linux is that most Linux applications are built using
    building blocks consisting of self-contained programs that can be
    connected like "lego blocks" using streams or pipes.

    Since you are a programmer, most of your favorite languages, including
    BASIC, C++, C#, and Java are available, but there are also languages
    such as PERL which is very easy to learn, and has a huge library of
    applications available which can quickly be combined to create new
    applications.

    > Another reason--of many--to stick with Windows--the steep learning
    > curve associated with Linux.


    The irony is that many Windows users are now demanding Linux
    applications on their machines. Cygwin is a simple way to get popular
    applications such as Sed, Awk, PERL, PostgreSQL, and other popular
    applications at no additional cost.

    With Linux, you get Office Suite, programming tools, graphics tools,
    photo editors, video editors, and dozens of other applications, many
    of which would cost you hundreds, even thousands on Windows, included
    with Linux. If you want better versions, commercial versions are
    available.

    For many people however, the included applications are "good enough"
    for their general use. Let's face it, unless you are editing full-
    length feature films for a living, you probably won't be springing for
    a $50,000 video editor package. On the other hand, if Linux offers a
    free editor, you might want to try some video editing. One version of
    Linux, Sabayon(?) Linux, is oriented toward the media market, and
    offers a system which supports everything from music composition,
    synthesis, and mixing, to animations and 3D CAD, to video editing.

    As for uses:

    > > > But serious business word processing,
    > > > spreadsheets, databases, programming, that sort of stuff.


    Remember, before Office, most people used Lotus 1-2-3, WordPerfect,
    and DBase. Microsoft locked up the market with their monopoly
    tactics.

    Linux encourages competition. There are several excellent competing
    products, all of which are based on industry standards to promote
    interchange between applications.

    > > Say what? Are you retarded? It's but one of many things. Postfix and
    > > Exim, to name a couple more. Postgres and MySQL. bind and any
    > > of a hatful of other DNS options. dcc. amavis.


    These are server applications. The reality is that you are probably
    using Linux and Unix every day and don't even realize it. The reality
    is that you probably use Linux and Unix more than you use Windows.
    Windows just functions as a "Terminal" to Linux and UNIX
    applications. This includes most of you web browsing, e-mail, instant
    messaging, security, authentication, ordering, banking, and even your
    stock brokerage.

    > > The list goes on (and on and
    > > on and on) and that's just a tiny fraction, server-side.




    > > Then there's anything from OOo to kmail,
    > > quanta to kdevelop, monodevelop,
    > > firefox, konq, gimp, gwenview and on and on and on for the desktop.


    Again, while Microsoft attempts to enforce a monopoly control it it's
    market, Linux actually encourages competition. Often, the "best" tool
    depends on the situation. For example, konquerer is much faster and
    more responsive, but Firefox is more widely supported. Some of the e-
    mail programs are better at managing large quantities of e-mail,
    others have better automated junk-mail filters.

    > > And let's not forget items such as egroupware and other enterprise
    > > information services.


    This is where Linux really excels. Microsoft has struggled for years
    to keep up with Linux in terms of collaboration tools.

    > > Or konsole, which allows me to connect to and control umpteen
    > > servers at once


    > > > Seriously, who uses Linux for *serious* work?


    > > I do, every single day.


    I use Linux and Windows concurrently. Windows gives me access to
    "Legacy" Microsoft applications, but Linux gives me access to a huge
    array of powerful tools and applications that help me do my job better
    and more effectively.


  18. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reasonto stick with Windows)

    On Dec 26, 1:31*pm, Rex Ballard wrote:

    Nice thumbnail history Ballard.

    So when are you going to try Windows for a change?

    You might just learn to like it.

    RL

  19. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reasonto stick with Windows)

    On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:26:43 -0800, raylopez99 wrote:


    > Well personally I paid $3 from a store in SE Asia for my copy of Vista
    > Ultimate...



    Do you believe that you have a genuine copy of windows? As a
    shareholder, what's your position on piracy? Are you advocating that
    everyone who wants to run Windows buy a ticket to SE Asia to buy a
    pirated version? Do you not see a contradiction in purchasing a copy of
    "your" companies product for less than ten percent of the suggested
    retail price; how can that be good for Microsoft's bottom line?


    -Thufir

  20. Re: Linux takes many years, if not decades, to lern (another reason to stick with Windows)

    * Rex Ballard fired off this tart reply:

    > I was reading Redmond Channel Partner - January 2008 edition, and saw
    > on page 16, that 53% had no plans to deploy vista, and only 13% had
    > plans to be fully deployed on Vista.


    Vista Excels!

    > I noticed on page 10, that Microsoft partners global impact was $100
    > billion, however, Global spending on IT was $1.2 Trillion - which
    > means that even with it's partners, Microsoft is less than 10% of the
    > total IT budget. In addition, the estimated growth was only 6.1%, yet
    > Microsoft intends to increase revenue by 20%. How much blood can you
    > get from a turnip?


    An interesting corroboration of the 10% or so percent I've read
    elsewhere (in an academic history of the computing industry).

    As for the turnip, there are quite a few people, some of whom post to
    this ng, whose heads are apparently filled with a turnip-like substance.
    Maybe they'll ante up.

    Maybe Microsoft's DRM/activation tactics are working well enough that
    they feel they can implement a plan to increase their margins in certain
    areas.

    For example, they've apparently been working a long time on IPTV,
    becoming more adept at it. Hasn't Microsoft's strategy always been

    Get the business! Get the business! Get the business!

    followed by

    Give 'em the business! Give 'em the business! Give 'em the business!

    --
    Tux rox!

+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast