[News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition - Linux

This is a discussion on [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition - Linux ; http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7143912.stm Microsoft accused on net browser A complaint has been filed to the European Commission accusing Microsoft of stifling competition by tying its browser to Windows. (Passive voice? Please.) Opera Software said the close ties between Internet Explorer (IE) and ...

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Thread: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

  1. [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7143912.stm

    Microsoft accused on net browser

    A complaint has been filed to the European Commission accusing
    Microsoft of stifling competition by tying its browser to Windows.

    (Passive voice? Please.)

    Opera Software said the close ties between Internet Explorer (IE)
    and Windows made it hard for rivals to be a serious choice for web
    users.

    (Agreed.)

    Opera also said Microsoft flouted web standards, making it much
    harder for browsers to be interoperable.

    (Not sure about the flouting; I get the feeling it's
    more like "Oh, we'll do our own thing and maybe fix these
    issues [and there's a fair number!] if people scream at
    us loudly enough". Then again, they do add new things
    which are nonstandard, such as contenteditable='true'.)

    Microsoft said putting its browser in its operating
    system benefited users.

    (To a certain extent, it does -- it allows users to browse.
    However, an alternative solution would be to present a
    requester asking "Which browser do you want?" and hiding
    IE as the sixth or seventh entry, after Mozilla Firefox,
    Opera, Dillo, and others. Another possibility is randomly
    shuffling the list. Of course in order to download the
    list, one needs something that can download the list --
    which closes the circle, unless one uses a specialized
    download program such as wget, or a Web-capable package
    installer such as rpm, dpkg, yum, or emerge.)

    [...]

    In a statement Opera said it wanted the Commission to
    make Microsoft separate IE from Windows and pre-install
    alternative browsers on new PCs.

    (An interesting requirement, and hard to do well.)

    [...]

    In response Microsoft said the company would co-operate
    with any enquiries and added: "We believe the inclusion
    of the browser into the operating system benefits
    consumers, and that consumers and PC manufacturers
    already are free to choose any browsers they wish."

    (If they're sufficiently aware that there are other
    browsers out there and care enough. The second we
    can do little about; the first might simply require
    an information campaign by, Opera, Mozilla, and others.)

    [...]

    Estimates vary but IE is thought to be used by
    approximately 80% of web users. Opera is believed to
    have a 1-2% market share of web users.

    (And is probably the only browser to get it 100% right,
    when it comes to standards; certainly it passes the
    Acid2 Test. Even Mozilla doesn't quite get there.)

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #992381111:
    while(bit&BITMASK) ;

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  2. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

    * The Ghost In The Machine fired off this tart reply:

    > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7143912.stm
    >
    > Microsoft said putting its browser in its operating
    > system benefited users.
    >
    > (To a certain extent, it does -- it allows users to browse.
    > However, an alternative solution would be to present a
    > requester asking "Which browser do you want?" and hiding
    > IE as the sixth or seventh entry, after Mozilla Firefox,
    > Opera, Dillo, and others. Another possibility is randomly
    > shuffling the list.


    The best thing would be to have alternate commercial implementations of
    Windows, where each company could push their own set of branded add-ons.

    Instead, we have only one implementation, and a problematic one, at
    that.

    --
    Tux rox!

  3. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

    Micoshaft asstroturfer amicus_curious berger wrote on behalf of Micoshaft
    Corporation:

    >
    > "The Ghost In The Machine" wrote in
    > message news:qu6b35-pi1.ln1@sirius.tg00suus7038.net...
    >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7143912.stm
    >>
    >> Microsoft accused on net browser
    >>
    >> A complaint has been filed to the European Commission accusing
    >> Microsoft of stifling competition by tying its browser to Windows.
    >>
    >> (Passive voice? Please.)
    >>
    >> Opera Software said the close ties between Internet Explorer (IE)
    >> and Windows made it hard for rivals to be a serious choice for web
    >> users.
    >>

    > I think that is incredibly lame. What Opera is saying is that their



    I think its incredibly lame that Micoshaft Corporation has deployed
    its asstroturers against the EU and the makers of opera for nothing
    more than a few dollars as a way of avoiding millions if not more
    in anti-monopoly fines.

  4. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

    ____/ Linonut on Friday 14 December 2007 21:43 : \____

    > * The Ghost In The Machine fired off this tart reply:
    >
    >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7143912.stm
    >>
    >> Microsoft said putting its browser in its operating
    >> system benefited users.
    >>
    >> (To a certain extent, it does -- it allows users to browse.
    >> However, an alternative solution would be to present a
    >> requester asking "Which browser do you want?" and hiding
    >> IE as the sixth or seventh entry, after Mozilla Firefox,
    >> Opera, Dillo, and others. Another possibility is randomly
    >> shuffling the list.

    >
    > The best thing would be to have alternate commercial implementations of
    > Windows, where each company could push their own set of branded add-ons.
    >
    > Instead, we have only one implementation, and a problematic one, at
    > that.
    >

    Have you forgotten de Icaza, Mono, and Novell? They help Microsoft make a
    second-class citizens (Windows catch-up) rather than a powerful UNIX
    environment.

    --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | Reclaim your workstation - install GNU/Linux today
    http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    Mem: 515500k total, 449988k used, 65512k free, 1324k buffers
    http://iuron.com - next generation of search paradigms

  5. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Roy Schestowitz

    wrote
    on Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:29:04 +0000
    <2755945.Vq37jkF0zt@schestowitz.com>:
    > ____/ Linonut on Friday 14 December 2007 21:43 : \____
    >
    >> * The Ghost In The Machine fired off this tart reply:
    >>
    >>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7143912.stm
    >>>
    >>> Microsoft said putting its browser in its operating
    >>> system benefited users.
    >>>
    >>> (To a certain extent, it does -- it allows users to browse.
    >>> However, an alternative solution would be to present a
    >>> requester asking "Which browser do you want?" and hiding
    >>> IE as the sixth or seventh entry, after Mozilla Firefox,
    >>> Opera, Dillo, and others. Another possibility is randomly
    >>> shuffling the list.

    >>
    >> The best thing would be to have alternate commercial implementations of
    >> Windows, where each company could push their own set of branded add-ons.
    >>
    >> Instead, we have only one implementation, and a problematic one, at
    >> that.
    >>

    > Have you forgotten de Icaza, Mono, and Novell? They help Microsoft make a
    > second-class citizens (Windows catch-up) rather than a powerful UNIX
    > environment.
    >


    I think Linux/Unix are the second-class citizens on the desktop here,
    with Microsoft in the proverbial catbird seat.

    It's a pity. Of course, the EU is angling to at least
    give them a very hard nudge (the US DoJ being hopelessly
    crippled because of sociopolitical issues), so we'll see.

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Murphy was an optimist.

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  6. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

    Linonut wrote:

    > The best thing would be to have alternate commercial implementations
    > of Windows, where each company could push their own set of branded
    > add-ons.


    The best thing would be more Linux users donate or buy Linux distros and
    support OSS projects financially so the developers have more time to
    dedicate, and can hopefully deliver better products than they deliver now.



    > Instead, we have only one implementation, and a problematic one, at
    > that.


    And Linux isn't problematic?




  7. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

    * Roy Schestowitz fired off this tart reply:

    > ____/ Linonut on Friday 14 December 2007 21:43 : \____
    >
    >> The best thing would be to have alternate commercial implementations of
    >> Windows, where each company could push their own set of branded add-ons.
    >>
    >> Instead, we have only one implementation, and a problematic one, at
    >> that.
    >>

    > Have you forgotten de Icaza, Mono, and Novell? They help Microsoft make a
    > second-class citizens (Windows catch-up) rather than a powerful UNIX
    > environment.


    Obviously, I'm talking about a sane, properly-administered DOJ remedy.
    Where companies are protected from Microsoft predation and API
    churn and obfuscation.

    Something that never happened.

    --
    Tux rox!

  8. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition


    "Rick" wrote in message
    news:13m84ahi2tuq517@news.supernews.com...
    >>>

    >> I never paid for a Netscape browser, they were always free as beta tests
    >> for the latest and the ISP always gave it away as part of the internet
    >> connection package.

    >
    > What you did does not matter. Netscape DID sell their browser. They then
    > had to stop selling because of Microsoft's dumping.
    >

    I guess that their browser wasn't worth much then, compared to IE. This
    only shows that Netscape had an inferior business case and strategy and that
    it succumbed to a better one and the world is far better off due to the
    increase efficiency. If there were any redeeming features about Netscape
    Navigator, then Netscape was remiss in not making it publicly known to
    potential consumers.

    >> Windows is considered by Microsoft and its
    >> customers as a one stop shop for a computer operating system platform
    >> and that necessitates having a browser as part of the package.

    >
    > It doesn't mean IE has to be included, and it doesn't mean IE has so
    > standards on-compliant.
    >

    It certainly does mean that. Imagine what people would say if they had to
    separately acquire a browser in order to use their new computer to view an
    internet site. Not even Linux is that backward.

    >> Linux does too as far as I can tell and so does Apple.

    >
    > Yes, every distro I know of includes multiple browsers. Apple includes
    > Safari, which far above IE in regards to standards compliance.
    >

    Does that mean that it doesn't show numerous sites as intended or does it
    mean that it shows sites better?
    >
    >> Maybe MS was first, but that is often the case.

    >
    > The only thing MS is first in is producing mediocre (at best) software,
    > and engaging in illegal, unethical and immoral activities.
    >

    Blah, blah, blah. You have no notion of producing software to start with.
    You only say that because you think it is cute and suits your dislike for
    Microsoft. They have done nothing unethical, immoral, or even illegal. You
    just show your lack of understanding when you mis-cite the various court
    cases.



  9. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition


    "Linonut" wrote in message
    news:nKC8j.42929$K27.32340@bignews6.bellsouth.net. ..
    >* The Ghost In The Machine fired off this tart reply:
    >
    >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7143912.stm
    >>
    >> Microsoft said putting its browser in its operating
    >> system benefited users.
    >>
    >> (To a certain extent, it does -- it allows users to browse.
    >> However, an alternative solution would be to present a
    >> requester asking "Which browser do you want?" and hiding
    >> IE as the sixth or seventh entry, after Mozilla Firefox,
    >> Opera, Dillo, and others. Another possibility is randomly
    >> shuffling the list.

    >
    > The best thing would be to have alternate commercial implementations of
    > Windows, where each company could push their own set of branded add-ons.
    >
    > Instead, we have only one implementation, and a problematic one, at
    > that.
    >

    But you could, you know. You could take Windows and repackage it with a new
    file system of your own devise, with or without any particular feature set
    that you saw as advantageous to offer in a package, just like a Linux
    distribution. You could fix anything that you though was broken badly
    enough to bother with and reap the rewards that you may think are there for
    doing so. You would have to pay Microsoft for their part or at least for
    using their brand, although you have to pay Linus for doing that, too.


  10. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

    amicus_curious wrote:
    >
    > But you could, you know. You could take Windows and repackage it with a new
    > file system of your own devise, with or without any particular feature set
    > that you saw as advantageous to offer in a package, just like a Linux
    > distribution. You could fix anything that you though was broken badly
    > enough to bother with and reap the rewards that you may think are there for
    > doing so. You would have to pay Microsoft for their part or at least for
    > using their brand, although you have to pay Linus for doing that, too.


    You can not sell a rebranded or repackaged version of Windows
    without the permission of Microsoft. Assuming they allow it,
    you will likely have to pay a royalty or license fee for every
    unit you sell. In contrast, you do not need permission from
    (nor do you need to pay) Linus or anyone else to make a Linux
    distribution. There are some circumstances in which you might
    pay to use the Linux trademark, but they are very narrow and
    extremely inexpensive (compare to getting a source code and OEM
    license for Windows, for example).

    The fact that you would even begin to equate the two boggles
    the mind.

    Thad
    --
    Yeah, I drank the Open Source cool-aid... Unlike the other brand, it had
    all the ingredients on the label.

  11. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition


    wrote in message
    news:243e35-lpv.ln1@tux.glaci.com...
    > amicus_curious wrote:
    >>
    >> But you could, you know. You could take Windows and repackage it with a
    >> new
    >> file system of your own devise, with or without any particular feature
    >> set
    >> that you saw as advantageous to offer in a package, just like a Linux
    >> distribution. You could fix anything that you though was broken badly
    >> enough to bother with and reap the rewards that you may think are there
    >> for
    >> doing so. You would have to pay Microsoft for their part or at least for
    >> using their brand, although you have to pay Linus for doing that, too.

    >
    > You can not sell a rebranded or repackaged version of Windows
    > without the permission of Microsoft.


    Easy enough to obtain and you would get their blessing, too. And many
    companies do just that.
    http://www.microsoft.com/windows/embedded/default.mspx


    > Assuming they allow it,
    > you will likely have to pay a royalty or license fee for every
    > unit you sell.


    Well, duh! That is what I said, as in "You would have to pay Microsoft for
    their part ."



    > In contrast, you do not need permission from
    > (nor do you need to pay) Linus or anyone else to make a Linux
    > distribution. There are some circumstances in which you might
    > pay to use the Linux trademark, but they are very narrow and
    > extremely inexpensive (compare to getting a source code and OEM
    > license for Windows, for example).
    >

    Pretty broad, I think.
    http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news...le.php/3530001

    Daddy Moglen has been heard to say: "It is therefore likely that in any
    given case of a product or distributor using 'Linux' as all or part of a
    trade name, a U.S. court would find likelihood of confusion, and therefore
    infringement," Moglen said. "So it does indeed behoove anyone in the U.S.
    using 'Linux' as part of a name to sublicense the mark."


    > The fact that you would even begin to equate the two boggles
    > the mind.
    >

    You think in the box, eh?


  12. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

    amicus_curious wrote:
    >
    > Easy enough to obtain and you would get their blessing, too. And many
    > companies do just that.
    > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/embedded/default.mspx


    As someone working in the field of embedded programming, I am very
    familiar with what Microsoft has to offer, how they license it,
    and how that compares to Linux.

    >> Assuming they allow it,
    >> you will likely have to pay a royalty or license fee for every
    >> unit you sell.

    >
    > Well, duh! That is what I said, as in "You would have to pay Microsoft for
    > their part ."


    Chill. I was merely reiterating the point to draw a contrast to the
    Linux alternative.

    >> In contrast, you do not need permission from
    >> (nor do you need to pay) Linus or anyone else to make a Linux
    >> distribution. There are some circumstances in which you might
    >> pay to use the Linux trademark, but they are very narrow and
    >> extremely inexpensive (compare to getting a source code and OEM
    >> license for Windows, for example).
    >>

    > Pretty broad, I think.
    > http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news...le.php/3530001
    >
    > Daddy Moglen has been heard to say: "It is therefore likely that in any
    > given case of a product or distributor using 'Linux' as all or part of a
    > trade name, a U.S. court would find likelihood of confusion, and therefore
    > infringement," Moglen said. "So it does indeed behoove anyone in the U.S.
    > using 'Linux' as part of a name to sublicense the mark."


    There is a substantial difference between licensing the actual
    operating system and merely sub-licensing a trademark. A huge,
    cavernous, stupendously monstrous difference. If you do not
    understand that, you might want to an attorney about it. I
    can recommend a good one.

    >> The fact that you would even begin to equate the two boggles
    >> the mind.
    >>

    > You think in the box, eh?


    Considering how MS-centric your worldview happens to be...
    well... pot, kettle... you fill in th rest.

    By the way, I've actually entered into OEM software license
    contracts, and was recently awarded a trademark, so at the
    risk of sounding arrogant, I think I might know a little bit
    about what I'm talking about here.
    --
    Yeah, I drank the Open Source cool-aid... Unlike the other brand, it had
    all the ingredients on the label.

  13. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

    * thad05@tux.glaci.delete-this.com fired off this tart reply:

    > amicus_curious wrote:
    >>

    >
    > By the way, I've actually entered into OEM software license
    > contracts, and was recently awarded a trademark, so at the
    > risk of sounding arrogant, I think I might know a little bit
    > about what I'm talking about here.


    Lack of knowledge doesn't do much to stop amicuss, unfortunately. He's
    more interested in high-school debate club, where you are tasked with
    proving first one side of the argument, and then proving the other side.
    One's beliefs on the issue don't matter.

    --
    Tux rox!

  14. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft ofstifling competition

    On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 10:59:47 -0500, DFS wrote:
    (snip)
    >
    > Ah yes, always blame MS and everyone else but the developers for Linux
    > crud.


    I guess we can blame your parents for the crud that is you.



    --
    Rick

  15. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

    Rick writes:

    > On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 10:59:47 -0500, DFS wrote:
    > (snip)
    >>
    >> Ah yes, always blame MS and everyone else but the developers for Linux
    >> crud.

    >
    > I guess we can blame your parents for the crud that is you.


    Not bad. Almost as girly rude as Kier. Is there some sort of competition
    going on between you (guffaw) "advocates" to see who can insult others
    the most rather than to address the issues?

    Head in the sand, arse in the air and whistling the star spangled
    banner.

    It's the COLA way.

  16. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

    On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:53:16 +0100, Hadron wrote:

    > Rick writes:
    >
    >> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 10:59:47 -0500, DFS wrote:
    >> (snip)
    >>>
    >>> Ah yes, always blame MS and everyone else but the developers for Linux
    >>> crud.

    >>
    >> I guess we can blame your parents for the crud that is you.

    >
    > Not bad. Almost as girly rude as Kier. Is there some sort of competition
    > going on between you (guffaw) "advocates" to see who can insult others
    > the most rather than to address the issues?


    What issues? That DFS is loud-mouthed, lying anti-Linux idiot?

    >
    > Head in the sand, arse in the air and whistling the star spangled
    > banner.
    >
    > It's the COLA way.


    WTF are you babbling about?

    --
    Kier


  17. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

    Kier wrote:

    > What issues? That DFS is loud-mouthed, lying anti-Linux idiot?


    Where's the lie, in this thread or elsewhere? Every time you call me a liar
    I ask you to show me the lie, and every single time (100%) you run away. So
    does spike and Kohlmann, etc.




  18. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft ofstifling competition

    On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:53:16 +0100, Hadron wrote:

    > Rick writes:
    >
    >> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 10:59:47 -0500, DFS wrote: (snip)
    >>>
    >>> Ah yes, always blame MS and everyone else but the developers for Linux
    >>> crud.

    >>
    >> I guess we can blame your parents for the crud that is you.

    >
    > Not bad. Almost as girly rude as Kier. Is there some sort of competition
    > going on between you (guffaw) "advocates" to see who can insult others
    > the most rather than to address the issues?


    Issues? DFS doesn't deal with issues. Neother do you.

    >
    > Head in the sand, arse in the air and whistling the star spangled
    > banner.


    About what? I use Linux. I use it daily as my personal desktop OS. I have
    done this for around 10 years. Do I still use Windows for a few things?
    Yes, I do. So what?

    Are Linux based distros perfect? No. Nothing is. But they beat the hell
    out of Windows.

    >
    > It's the COLA way.

    Your bigotry and dishonesty is showing.

    --
    Rick

  19. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft of stifling competition

    Rick writes:

    > On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:53:16 +0100, Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> Rick writes:
    >>
    >>> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 10:59:47 -0500, DFS wrote: (snip)
    >>>>
    >>>> Ah yes, always blame MS and everyone else but the developers for Linux
    >>>> crud.
    >>>
    >>> I guess we can blame your parents for the crud that is you.

    >>
    >> Not bad. Almost as girly rude as Kier. Is there some sort of competition
    >> going on between you (guffaw) "advocates" to see who can insult others
    >> the most rather than to address the issues?

    >
    > Issues? DFS doesn't deal with issues. Neother do you.
    >
    >>
    >> Head in the sand, arse in the air and whistling the star spangled
    >> banner.

    >
    > About what? I use Linux. I use it daily as my personal desktop OS. I have
    > done this for around 10 years. Do I still use Windows for a few things?
    > Yes, I do. So what?
    >
    > Are Linux based distros perfect? No. Nothing is. But they beat the hell
    > out of Windows.
    >
    >>
    >> It's the COLA way.

    > Your bigotry and dishonesty is showing.


    What bigotry and dishonesty? You confuse me. I too use Linux. Your point is?

  20. Re: [News] [Rival] Opera files brief in EC accusing Microsoft ofstifling competition

    On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:46:30 +0100, Hadron wrote:

    > Rick writes:
    >
    >> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:53:16 +0100, Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >>> Rick writes:
    >>>
    >>>> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 10:59:47 -0500, DFS wrote: (snip)
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Ah yes, always blame MS and everyone else but the developers for
    >>>>> Linux crud.
    >>>>
    >>>> I guess we can blame your parents for the crud that is you.
    >>>
    >>> Not bad. Almost as girly rude as Kier. Is there some sort of
    >>> competition going on between you (guffaw) "advocates" to see who can
    >>> insult others the most rather than to address the issues?

    >>
    >> Issues? DFS doesn't deal with issues. Neother do you.
    >>
    >>
    >>> Head in the sand, arse in the air and whistling the star spangled
    >>> banner.

    >>
    >> About what? I use Linux. I use it daily as my personal desktop OS. I
    >> have done this for around 10 years. Do I still use Windows for a few
    >> things? Yes, I do. So what?
    >>
    >> Are Linux based distros perfect? No. Nothing is. But they beat the
    >> hell out of Windows.
    >>
    >>
    >>> It's the COLA way.

    >> Your bigotry and dishonesty is showing.

    >
    > What bigotry and dishonesty? You confuse me. I too use Linux. Your point
    > is?


    I see you are confused. I am not surprised.

    --
    Rick

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