Seagate snubs Linux - Linux

This is a discussion on Seagate snubs Linux - Linux ; SEAGATE'S latest batch of drives, the ironically titled Free Agent series are not compatible with the Open Sauce operating system Linux... The problem is to do with the power-saving systems on Seagate's latest range of drives and the fact that ...

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  1. Seagate snubs Linux


    SEAGATE'S latest batch of drives, the ironically titled Free Agent
    series are not compatible with the Open Sauce operating system
    Linux...

    The problem is to do with the power-saving systems on Seagate's latest
    range of drives and the fact that it is shipped already formatted to
    NTFS.

    The NTFS is only a slight hurdle to Linux users who have a kernel with
    NTFS writing enabled or can work mkfs. But the "power saving" timer is
    a real bugger.

    It will shut shut the drive off after several minutes of inactivity
    and helpfully drop the USB connection. When the connection does come
    back it returns as USB1 which is apparently as useful as a chocolate
    teapot.


    http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...te-snubs-linux

  2. Re: Seagate snubs Linux

    "nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu" writes:

    >
    > SEAGATE'S latest batch of drives, the ironically titled Free Agent
    > series are not compatible with the Open Sauce operating system
    > Linux...
    >
    > The problem is to do with the power-saving systems on Seagate's latest
    > range of drives and the fact that it is shipped already formatted to
    > NTFS.
    >
    > The NTFS is only a slight hurdle to Linux users who have a kernel with
    > NTFS writing enabled or can work mkfs. But the "power saving" timer is
    > a real bugger.
    >
    > It will shut shut the drive off after several minutes of inactivity
    > and helpfully drop the USB connection. When the connection does come
    > back it returns as USB1 which is apparently as useful as a chocolate
    > teapot.
    >

    >
    > http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...te-snubs-linux


    What if you (correctly) asign it a UUID and have an fstab based on UUID?

    the /dev/sdX system sucks for drives that go offline. Thex have always
    come back as the wrong drive in many editions of Linux. The UUID system
    addresses that by assigning a Unique ID to the drive and can thus
    correctly identify WHERE to mount it when it comes alive again.

    e.g

    UUID=34efec30-45af-4279-8a3c-************ /media/multimedia ext3
    defaults,user,auto 0 0

    auto mounts my multimedia drive in the right place when I power it on.

    --
    You definitely intend to start living sometime soon.

  3. Re: Seagate snubs Linux

    On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 09:55:47 -0800, nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:

    > SEAGATE'S latest batch of drives, the ironically titled Free Agent
    > series are not compatible with the Open Sauce operating system Linux...


    Better titled: 'Seagate shoot themselves in the foot'

    Why else would they deny sales of their products to a market which,
    albeit small, might give them a competitive advantage over all too many
    similar products?

    Can they afford to turn away customers?



  4. Re: Seagate snubs Linux

    On 2007-12-10, nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:
    >
    > SEAGATE'S latest batch of drives, the ironically titled Free Agent
    > series are not compatible with the Open Sauce operating system
    > Linux...
    >
    > The problem is to do with the power-saving systems on Seagate's latest
    > range of drives and the fact that it is shipped already formatted to
    > NTFS.
    >

    >
    > http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...te-snubs-linux


    The fact that it is formatted with NTFS is no impediment whatsoever to
    Linux. Stop spreading anti-Linux FUD.

  5. Re: Seagate snubs Linux

    On Dec 10, 12:55 pm, "ness...@wigner.berkeley.edu"
    wrote:
    >
    > SEAGATE'S latest batch of drives, the ironically titled Free Agent
    > series are not compatible with the Open Sauce operating system
    > Linux...


    This may be a form of "probe" to get a better sense of market demand.

    > The problem is to do with the power-saving systems on Seagate's latest
    > range of drives and the fact that it is shipped already formatted to
    > NTFS.


    This makes sense. Hard drives can easily be reformatted to any format
    required, but the extremely large storage sizes of modern hard drives,
    many growing to over a terabyte, mean that FAT32 pre-formatting is not
    practical. Preformatting the drive means you don't have to wait as
    much as a few hours to format a 700 gigabyte or 1 terabyte hard drive.

    > The NTFS is only a slight hurdle to Linux users who have a kernel with
    > NTFS writing enabled or can work mkfs.


    The point is that if the NTFS preformatted version is priced slightly
    higher, but the demand does not increase, or more business goes to
    competitors, Seagate knows that these expansion drives are being used
    by customers who are using Linux, or are using Linux based storage
    controllers such as the LinkSys SAN controller.

    On the flip side, if Seagate can get a slightly higher price for a
    machine based on NTFS, then this would indicate that most of their
    customers are purchasing the expansion drives for Windows systems.

    > But the "power saving" timer is a real bugger.


    This may be another "Market Meter". If these drives are rejected in
    favor of Western Digital Drives, which have the same type of power
    saver feature that DOES work with Linux, then Seagate would know that
    they need to put more of their focus on Linux than on Windows.

    > It will shut shut the drive off after several minutes of inactivity
    > and helpfully drop the USB connection.


    The Western Digital "MyBook" also does this, and does it with both
    LInux and EXT3 based SAN drive controllers such as the LinkSys NSLU2
    would need more attention.

    A similar tactic was attempted by NetGear. They produced the SC-101
    storage controller. Netgear not only found that it didn't sell as
    well as the NSLU2, but they were flooded with e-mails asking for Linux
    drivers, complaining about the lack of Linux support, and even
    requests for refunds. As a result, the next generation of similar
    devices were made fully Linux compatible.

    We've seen similar "market probes" in the form of video cards.
    NVidia, Intel, and ATI all offered DirectX video cards or chipsets
    that supported ONLY Windows, and OpenGL video cards that supported
    both Windows AND Linux. Much to their surprise, the demand for the
    DirectX video chips and cards (including PCs which used them), was
    much lower than expected. At the same time, demand for OpenGL video
    chips and cards was much higher than originally anticipated. This
    gave a very clear indicator that Linux compatibility was a critical
    requirement. Even if all of the machines were not being converted to
    Linux immediately, it was very clear that corporate customers and
    government agencies were looking for machines that could be quickly
    and easily converted to Linux.

    > When the connection does come back it returns as USB1 which is apparently
    > as useful as a chocolate teapot.
    >


    Unless there is a quick and efficient way to upgrade the connection
    from USB-1 (10Kbytes/second) up to USB2 (40 Megabytes/second), that's
    probably true. Of course, such a drive will pretty much be black-
    listed by corporate, government, and Linux "Power Users" who want
    Linux capabilities in their peripherals.

    This may be what Seagate wants to do. They may want to confirm what
    they already suspect, that a substantial portion of their market is
    not Windows based storage, but rather Linux based storage. Such a
    discovery might be an incentive for Seagate to switch from SATA drive
    manufacture, to SAS drive manufacture. Windows cannot effectively
    exploit the enhanced scheduling and power of SAS drives, but Linux can
    fully exploit these advantages.

    If it turns out that the target market for Seagate is actually Linux
    based desktops, laptops, and SAN controllers, then there might be more
    demand for iSCSI, SAS, and Linux based SAN controllers for the
    consumer market.

    > http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...seagate-snubs-...



  6. Re: Seagate snubs Linux

    ____/ Robin T Cox on Monday 10 December 2007 18:34 : \____

    > On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 09:55:47 -0800, nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:
    >
    >> SEAGATE'S latest batch of drives, the ironically titled Free Agent
    >> series are not compatible with the Open Sauce operating system Linux...

    >
    > Better titled: 'Seagate shoot themselves in the foot'
    >
    > Why else would they deny sales of their products to a market which,
    > albeit small, might give them a competitive advantage over all too many
    > similar products?
    >
    > Can they afford to turn away customers?


    This isn't exactly new. They have been Microsoft pals for quite some time. I
    wrote about it in the weekend.
    http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archiv...ye-to-seagate/

    --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | Y |-(1^2)|^(1/2)+1 K
    http://Schestowitz.com | Free as in Free Beer | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    Cpu(s): 20.2%us, 3.4%sy, 0.9%ni, 71.6%id, 3.5%wa, 0.2%hi, 0.1%si, 0.0%st
    http://iuron.com - semantic engine to gather information

  7. Linux can't format hard drives????

    On 2007-12-11, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    > This isn't exactly new. They have been Microsoft pals for quite some time. I
    > wrote about it in the weekend.
    > http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archiv...ye-to-seagate/


    From the above link:

    Seagate has many more issues. They preformat their external drives
    with a Windows filesystem. This leads to interoperability issues
    with a local drives that use a Linux filesystem and the drive
    sometimes ‘hangs up’ on Linux (this aligns with the experiences
    mentioned in the new article, which is cited above). I bought my way
    into this Seagate mess 2 years ago (300GB), but the Maxtor one I
    bought this year is much better (not preformatted either).

    I'm curious--when were the commands to format drives removed from Linux?
    Last time I installed a new drive on a Linux box, the procedure to deal
    with one that wasn't preformatted was exactly the same as the procedure
    to deal with one that was preformatted with a Windows filesystem (which
    is most of the external drives nowadays):

    mkfs.ext3 /dev/sd?

    or

    mkfs.reiser4 /dev/sd?

    or something similar, depending on what filesystem you want to use. Are
    you claiming this does not work on Seagate drives, and also did not work
    two years ago???

  8. Re: Seagate snubs Linux


    "Robin T Cox" wrote in message
    news:1Ff7j.3334$1j1.1611@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
    >>

    > Why else would they deny sales of their products to a market which,
    > albeit small, might give them a competitive advantage over all too many
    > similar products?
    >
    > Can they afford to turn away customers?
    >

    Certainly they can. They turn away some Linux customers, you suggest, but
    do they improve their appeal to Windows customers by this means? If so,
    they gain more than they could ever lose.


  9. Re: Linux can't format hard drives????

    On 2007-12-11, Tim Smith wrote:
    > On 2007-12-11, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
    >> This isn't exactly new. They have been Microsoft pals for quite some time. I
    >> wrote about it in the weekend.
    >> http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archiv...ye-to-seagate/

    >
    > From the above link:
    >
    > Seagate has many more issues. They preformat their external drives
    > with a Windows filesystem. This leads to interoperability issues
    > with a local drives that use a Linux filesystem and the drive
    > sometimes ‘hangs up’ on Linux (this aligns with the experiences
    > mentioned in the new article, which is cited above). I bought my way
    > into this Seagate mess 2 years ago (300GB), but the Maxtor one I
    > bought this year is much better (not preformatted either).


    PS: Maxtor is part of Seagate.

  10. Re: Seagate snubs Linux

    Hadron wrote:

    > "nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu" writes:
    >
    >>
    >> SEAGATE'S latest batch of drives, the ironically titled Free Agent
    >> series are not compatible with the Open Sauce operating system
    >> Linux...
    >>
    >> The problem is to do with the power-saving systems on Seagate's latest
    >> range of drives and the fact that it is shipped already formatted to
    >> NTFS.
    >>
    >> The NTFS is only a slight hurdle to Linux users who have a kernel with
    >> NTFS writing enabled or can work mkfs. But the "power saving" timer is
    >> a real bugger.
    >>
    >> It will shut shut the drive off after several minutes of inactivity
    >> and helpfully drop the USB connection. When the connection does come
    >> back it returns as USB1 which is apparently as useful as a chocolate
    >> teapot.
    >>

    >>
    >>

    http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...te-snubs-linux
    >
    > What if you (correctly) asign it a UUID and have an fstab based on UUID?
    >
    > the /dev/sdX system sucks for drives that go offline. Thex have always
    > come back as the wrong drive in many editions of Linux. The UUID system
    > addresses that by assigning a Unique ID to the drive and can thus
    > correctly identify WHERE to mount it when it comes alive again.
    >
    > e.g
    >
    > UUID=34efec30-45af-4279-8a3c-************ /media/multimedia ext3
    > defaults,user,auto 0 0
    >
    > auto mounts my multimedia drive in the right place when I power it on.
    >


    ....or you can also mount by volume label.

    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  11. Re: Seagate snubs Linux

    On 2007-12-11, Gregory Shearman claimed:

    > ...or you can also mount by volume label.


    My preferred method.

    Although I have trouble with vfat drives on PCLinuxOS using labels as
    the test for mounting. I keep getting errors that the device-by-label
    can't be found. But the same drive/partition mounts on every other
    distro I've used it with. And I can manually mount it using the
    filesystem-type and other options.

    I don't use PCLOS much anyway. And I only had this problem with the
    latest, partly because I didn't use disk labels that much in the past.
    Next time I do use PCLOS (probably next release) I'll play with it more
    and report what I found to Texstar.

    --
    Me and my 4th wife believe in family values.

  12. Re: Seagate snubs Linux

    * Sinister Midget fired off this tart reply:

    > --
    > Me and my 4th wife believe in family values.


    You have a very wide "stance"!

    --
    Tux rox!

  13. Re: Seagate snubs Linux

    On 2007-12-11, Linonut claimed:
    > * Sinister Midget fired off this tart reply:
    >
    >> --
    >> Me and my 4th wife believe in family values.

    >
    > You have a very wide "stance"!


    After finding how happy a family can be when subscribing to such
    precepts I've decided that _all_ of my future wives have to be family
    values-based or I'll divorce them and move on.

    --
    A bird in the hand is not as good as a girl in the bush.

  14. Re: Seagate snubs Linux

    * Gregory Shearman fired off this tart reply:

    > Hadron wrote:
    >>>

    > http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...te-snubs-linux
    >>
    >> What if you (correctly) asign it a UUID and have an fstab based on UUID?
    >>
    >> the /dev/sdX system sucks for drives that go offline. Thex have always
    >> come back as the wrong drive in many editions of Linux. The UUID system
    >> addresses that by assigning a Unique ID to the drive and can thus
    >> correctly identify WHERE to mount it when it comes alive again.
    >>
    >> e.g
    >>
    >> UUID=34efec30-45af-4279-8a3c-************ /media/multimedia ext3
    >> defaults,user,auto 0 0
    >>
    >> auto mounts my multimedia drive in the right place when I power it on.

    >
    > ...or you can also mount by volume label.


    Or use udev.

    $ ls -l /dev/disk/by-uuid/
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 Dec 11 08:28 07D7-0206 -> ../../sda1
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 Dec 11 08:28 23168ec6-c572-4bec-92f3-d99d35a419b2 -> ../../sda3
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 Dec 11 08:28 3e651772-3639-43d5-a975-7ab885bfaed5 -> ../../sda11
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 Dec 11 08:28 428156b2-63db-4e10-a165-daaa83f1c7c4 -> ../../sda10
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 Dec 11 08:28 9c528305-18d4-4ea2-ade0-00316046e24b -> ../../sda8
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 Dec 11 08:28 9d536a03-6137-40f3-b76d-ded2d6f89793 -> ../../sda9
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 Dec 11 08:28 E83CFA633CFA2C66 -> ../../sda2
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 Dec 11 08:28 c71621cf-6996-4742-a90b-612244f642e8 -> ../../sda6
    lrwxrwxrwx 1 Dec 11 08:28 d2ba0294-b637-42d4-951d-10cbb9bbf43e -> ../../sda5

    --
    Tux rox!

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