Vista: now run by one in five users - Linux

This is a discussion on Vista: now run by one in five users - Linux ; In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Ben Miller-Jacobson wrote on Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:33:26 -0500 : > Hadron wrote: >> Gregory Shearman writes: >> >>> Hadron wrote: >>> >>>> flatfish writes: >>>> >>>>> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:23:49 +0100, Richard Rasker >>>>> ...

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Thread: Vista: now run by one in five users

  1. Re: Vista: now run by one in five users

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Ben Miller-Jacobson

    wrote
    on Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:33:26 -0500
    <47570adc$0$2302$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>:
    > Hadron wrote:
    >> Gregory Shearman writes:
    >>
    >>> Hadron wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> flatfish writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:23:49 +0100, Richard Rasker
    >>>>> wrote:
    >>>>> Where is desktop Linux after 15 years and considering it is FREE?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Less than 1 percent...
    >>>>>
    >>>>> When something that is free can't manage to even make it into the
    >>>>> single digits, something is seriously wrong with that product.
    >>>> Wrong.
    >>>>
    >>>> LINUX is *excellent*. What is not excellent is the OSS SW and the
    >>>> required documentation.
    >>> There's nothing wrong with the documentation of the majority of OSS
    >>> software. Some of it is a bit sparse...

    >>
    >> Incorrect.
    >>
    >> The majority of OSS SW has spartan/piss poor documentation.

    >
    > Just type "man (program's name)" into the terminal, and you will get
    > quite a bit of usually excellent documentation.


    That depends highly on one's system setup and the
    application; the Linux manpages can be very spotty -- or
    even nonexistent in some cases; check out, for example,
    earlier versions of the Gtk+ API (the newest version looks
    like someone's gone in there and properly fleshed it out,
    and kudos to them).

    Not that Windows is necessarily better in that regard,
    of course.

    Ultimately, of course, FOSS's documentation quality depends
    on us. Ideally, if one finds a documentation deficiency,
    one would report and fix it, and the fix gets uploaded
    to the documentation maintainers (for that particular
    application) for inclusion so that everyone else can
    benefit.

    In practice, there's a fair number of issues involving
    disruptive elements that might preclude such; if one
    can e.g. fix typos in Wikipedia, one can totally mangle
    articles and misrepresent facts in Wikipedia as well,
    absent tighter controls.

    (Fortunately, Wikipedia is audited on a frequent basis,
    which precludes the grosser abuses, if I'm not mistaken.)

    >
    >>>> And the "advocacy" can kiss my butt. I do more for advocacy in one day
    >>>> than the "advocates" here do in a year. *AND* I never installed two
    >>>> machines in my local library.
    >>> If advocacy is a new word for whining and crying then yes, you do a lot of
    >>> advocacy.

    >>
    >> Hint : fighting for a better product is not "crying". I realise you are
    >> happy to telnet into a nntp server and chat with your RFC by your
    >> side. Real people are not.
    >>

    >



    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    /dev/brain: Permission denied

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  2. Re: Vista: now run by one in five users

    The Ghost In The Machine writes:

    > In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Ben Miller-Jacobson
    >
    > wrote
    > on Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:33:26 -0500
    > <47570adc$0$2302$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>:
    >> Hadron wrote:
    >>> Gregory Shearman writes:
    >>>
    >>>> Hadron wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> flatfish writes:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:23:49 +0100, Richard Rasker
    >>>>>> wrote:
    >>>>>> Where is desktop Linux after 15 years and considering it is FREE?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Less than 1 percent...
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> When something that is free can't manage to even make it into the
    >>>>>> single digits, something is seriously wrong with that product.
    >>>>> Wrong.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> LINUX is *excellent*. What is not excellent is the OSS SW and the
    >>>>> required documentation.
    >>>> There's nothing wrong with the documentation of the majority of OSS
    >>>> software. Some of it is a bit sparse...
    >>>
    >>> Incorrect.
    >>>
    >>> The majority of OSS SW has spartan/piss poor documentation.

    >>
    >> Just type "man (program's name)" into the terminal, and you will get
    >> quite a bit of usually excellent documentation.

    >
    > That depends highly on one's system setup and the
    > application; the Linux manpages can be very spotty -- or
    > even nonexistent in some cases; check out, for example,
    > earlier versions of the Gtk+ API (the newest version looks
    > like someone's gone in there and properly fleshed it out,
    > and kudos to them).


    Where did you get the man pages? Without rechecking I was looking a
    while back.

    http://lists-archives.org/gtk/05106-...o-for-gtk.html

  3. Re: Vista: now run by one in five users

    Hadron wrote:

    > Most of the desktop GUI apps I find to be a POS. The exceptions for me
    > are
    >
    > IceWeasel (rebranded firefox)
    > GIMP
    > Amarok (when it works)
    > Synaptic
    > mplayer
    > k3b
    > gparted
    >


    All the above look good. So do:

    KNode
    Pan
    Evolution
    Pidgin
    Kaffeine
    Konversation
    Ekiga Softphone
    K3B


  4. Re: Vista: now run by one in five users

    On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 05:02:53 +0100, Hadron wrote:

    > Robin T Cox writes:
    >
    >> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:34:18 +0100, Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >>> Robin T Cox writes:
    >>>
    >>>> On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:29:47 -0500, DFS wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> "As of October, approximately one in five of all U.S. respondents
    >>>>> have access to at least one computer with Vista installed, either at
    >>>>> home or work,"
    >>>>
    >>>> What does "have access to" mean? After all, anyone who goes to a
    >>>> store "has access to" a Vista installed machine.
    >>>>
    >>>> So isn't this a case of counting the chickens before they are
    >>>> hatched?
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> I really do wonder if you have reading problems. What part of "have
    >>> access to at either home or work" eludes you? You think they might
    >>> have to swing across a croc infested river? What do YOU think "access
    >>> to" might mean in this context.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> I'd love to hear your suggestion, if you have one.
    >>
    >> Apparently it is not your practice to query the claims of advertisers
    >> or spin doctors. There's a word for that: gullibility.
    >>
    >> Fortunately, not all of us are as green as we're cabbage-looking.

    >
    > Cauliflower ears are not an excuse. This is a reading exercise.


    The title of the thread says 'run by', but the report cited refers to
    'access to'.

    Anyone can read that, apart, it seems, from you.

    The discrepancy speaks volumes.


  5. Re: Vista: now run by one in five users

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Hadron

    wrote
    on Wed, 05 Dec 2007 22:45:25 +0100
    :
    > The Ghost In The Machine writes:
    >
    >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Ben Miller-Jacobson
    >>
    >> wrote
    >> on Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:33:26 -0500
    >> <47570adc$0$2302$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>:
    >>> Hadron wrote:
    >>>> Gregory Shearman writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Hadron wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> flatfish writes:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:23:49 +0100, Richard Rasker
    >>>>>>> wrote:
    >>>>>>> Where is desktop Linux after 15 years and considering it is FREE?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Less than 1 percent...
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> When something that is free can't manage to even make it into the
    >>>>>>> single digits, something is seriously wrong with that product.
    >>>>>> Wrong.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> LINUX is *excellent*. What is not excellent is the OSS SW and the
    >>>>>> required documentation.
    >>>>> There's nothing wrong with the documentation of the majority of OSS
    >>>>> software. Some of it is a bit sparse...
    >>>>
    >>>> Incorrect.
    >>>>
    >>>> The majority of OSS SW has spartan/piss poor documentation.
    >>>
    >>> Just type "man (program's name)" into the terminal, and you will get
    >>> quite a bit of usually excellent documentation.

    >>
    >> That depends highly on one's system setup and the
    >> application; the Linux manpages can be very spotty -- or
    >> even nonexistent in some cases; check out, for example,
    >> earlier versions of the Gtk+ API (the newest version looks
    >> like someone's gone in there and properly fleshed it out,
    >> and kudos to them).

    >
    > Where did you get the man pages? Without rechecking I was looking a
    > while back.
    >
    > http://lists-archives.org/gtk/05106-...o-for-gtk.html


    I was referring to the Gtk+ HTML documentation. As it
    is, there are no man pages as such for the Gtk widgets,
    unless someone's converted them.

    Try, for example 'man gtk_label_new'. There's not a lot there.
    (As one might expect, that creates a Gtk label, so even
    were the manpages working there's not a huge amount there.)

    This may not be that big an issue, admittedly, but I'm
    getting a little tired of using man here, info there,
    and HTML over there. Of course, the flip side is that
    someone would have to go through the man and info pages
    and convert them to XML, and clean up the HTML into XHTML,
    and possibly postprocess them all into a common format
    (SGML?) for eventual consumption by either a supertool,
    or by modified variants of all three systems.

    Whether it's all worth the effort, I for one can't say.
    Definitely a "would be nice, but not required" sort of thing.

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    /dev/signature: Resource temporarily unavailable

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  6. Re: Vista: now run by one in five users

    On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:57:43 -0500, Tattoo Vampire wrote:

    > Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> Most of the desktop GUI apps I find to be a POS. The exceptions for me
    >> are
    >>
    >> IceWeasel (rebranded firefox)
    >> GIMP
    >> Amarok (when it works)
    >> Synaptic
    >> mplayer
    >> k3b
    >> gparted
    >>

    >
    > All the above look good. So do:
    >
    > KNode
    > Pan
    > Evolution
    > Pidgin
    > Kaffeine
    > Konversation
    > Ekiga Softphone
    > K3B


    Avidemux
    Kate
    VLC
    Exaile
    DVD:rip
    Blender
    LinCity-NG

    --
    Kier


  7. Re: Vista: now run by one in five users

    Kier wrote:

    > On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:57:43 -0500, Tattoo Vampire wrote:
    >
    >> Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >>> Most of the desktop GUI apps I find to be a POS. The exceptions for me
    >>> are
    >>>
    >>> IceWeasel (rebranded firefox)
    >>> GIMP
    >>> Amarok (when it works)
    >>> Synaptic
    >>> mplayer
    >>> k3b
    >>> gparted
    >>>

    >>
    >> All the above look good. So do:
    >>
    >> KNode
    >> Pan
    >> Evolution
    >> Pidgin
    >> Kaffeine
    >> Konversation
    >> Ekiga Softphone
    >> K3B

    >
    > Avidemux
    > Kate
    > VLC
    > Exaile
    > DVD:rip
    > Blender
    > LinCity-NG
    >


    Lets throw in some more (just those I use most often besides those already
    mentioned)

    Konqueror
    Audacity
    KMediaFactory
    k9copy
    Kino
    KDevelop
    KWriter
    KWord
    QT3
    QT4
    Xine

    These are just the ones which are on my desktop quite often.
    There are other apps.
    But the "list" Hadron Quark supplied is just a very small one compared to
    the apps used regularly, and which are not at all "crappy" in any way

    And it should be clear by now that the "full list" encompasses most of the
    usual things a computer user might do. Except gaming, perhaps. And even
    that is not all that clear.
    My son likes to play "World of Warcraft". He assures me that it actually
    runs better on Wine/linux than on native windows
    And it is not the only game he plays on linux
    --
    FLASH! Intelligence of mankind decreasing. Details at ... uh, when
    the little hand is on the ....


  8. Re: Vista: now run by one in five users

    Robin T Cox writes:

    > On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 05:02:53 +0100, Hadron wrote:
    >
    >> Robin T Cox writes:
    >>
    >>> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:34:18 +0100, Hadron wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Robin T Cox writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 22:29:47 -0500, DFS wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> "As of October, approximately one in five of all U.S. respondents
    >>>>>> have access to at least one computer with Vista installed, either at
    >>>>>> home or work,"
    >>>>>
    >>>>> What does "have access to" mean? After all, anyone who goes to a
    >>>>> store "has access to" a Vista installed machine.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> So isn't this a case of counting the chickens before they are
    >>>>> hatched?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>> I really do wonder if you have reading problems. What part of "have
    >>>> access to at either home or work" eludes you? You think they might
    >>>> have to swing across a croc infested river? What do YOU think "access
    >>>> to" might mean in this context.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> I'd love to hear your suggestion, if you have one.
    >>>
    >>> Apparently it is not your practice to query the claims of advertisers
    >>> or spin doctors. There's a word for that: gullibility.
    >>>
    >>> Fortunately, not all of us are as green as we're cabbage-looking.

    >>
    >> Cauliflower ears are not an excuse. This is a reading exercise.

    >
    > The title of the thread says 'run by', but the report cited refers to
    > 'access to'.
    >
    > Anyone can read that, apart, it seems, from you.
    >
    > The discrepancy speaks volumes.
    >


    Robin, run off and do a nym change because you are not up to it. Here

    ,----
    | >>>>> "As of October, approximately one in five of all U.S. respondents
    | >>>>> have access to at least one computer with Vista installed, either at
    | >>>>> home or work,"
    `----

    "have access to".

    This is from the article. Not from the misworded subject. But that is
    immaterial. It is as obvious as the sun in the sky what is meant.

  9. Re: Vista: now run by one in five users

    The Ghost In The Machine writes:

    > In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Hadron
    >
    > wrote
    > on Wed, 05 Dec 2007 22:45:25 +0100
    > :
    >> The Ghost In The Machine writes:
    >>
    >>> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Ben Miller-Jacobson
    >>>
    >>> wrote
    >>> on Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:33:26 -0500
    >>> <47570adc$0$2302$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>:
    >>>> Hadron wrote:
    >>>>> Gregory Shearman writes:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Hadron wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> flatfish writes:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:23:49 +0100, Richard Rasker
    >>>>>>>> wrote:
    >>>>>>>> Where is desktop Linux after 15 years and considering it is FREE?
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Less than 1 percent...
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> When something that is free can't manage to even make it into the
    >>>>>>>> single digits, something is seriously wrong with that product.
    >>>>>>> Wrong.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> LINUX is *excellent*. What is not excellent is the OSS SW and the
    >>>>>>> required documentation.
    >>>>>> There's nothing wrong with the documentation of the majority of OSS
    >>>>>> software. Some of it is a bit sparse...
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Incorrect.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> The majority of OSS SW has spartan/piss poor documentation.
    >>>>
    >>>> Just type "man (program's name)" into the terminal, and you will get
    >>>> quite a bit of usually excellent documentation.
    >>>
    >>> That depends highly on one's system setup and the
    >>> application; the Linux manpages can be very spotty -- or
    >>> even nonexistent in some cases; check out, for example,
    >>> earlier versions of the Gtk+ API (the newest version looks
    >>> like someone's gone in there and properly fleshed it out,
    >>> and kudos to them).

    >>
    >> Where did you get the man pages? Without rechecking I was looking a
    >> while back.
    >>
    >> http://lists-archives.org/gtk/05106-...o-for-gtk.html

    >
    > I was referring to the Gtk+ HTML documentation. As it
    > is, there are no man pages as such for the Gtk widgets,
    > unless someone's converted them.
    >
    > Try, for example 'man gtk_label_new'. There's not a lot there.
    > (As one might expect, that creates a Gtk label, so even
    > were the manpages working there's not a huge amount there.)
    >
    > This may not be that big an issue, admittedly, but I'm
    > getting a little tired of using man here, info there,
    > and HTML over there.


    Exactly my point. I want one uniform help method and man pages can be
    brought up into emacs easily. Typical inconsistency. man pages are the
    standard and nothing should be accepted into the development
    repositories at least without those man pages.

  10. Re: Vista: now run by one in five users

    Robin T Cox wrote:

    > The title of the thread says 'run by', but the report cited refers to
    > 'access to'.
    >
    > Anyone can read that, apart, it seems, from you.
    >
    > The discrepancy speaks volumes.


    Take a closer look at the original post.

    Apology accepted.






  11. Re: Vista: now run by one in five users

    On 2007-12-05, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    >> Just type "man (program's name)" into the terminal, and you will get
    >> quite a bit of usually excellent documentation.

    >
    > That depends highly on one's system setup and the
    > application; the Linux manpages can be very spotty -- or
    > even nonexistent in some cases; check out, for example,
    > earlier versions of the Gtk+ API (the newest version looks
    > like someone's gone in there and properly fleshed it out,
    > and kudos to them).


    Another thing to keep in mind specifically about man pages is that they
    were generally meant to be quick reference documents for people who
    already generally knew how to use the program. E.g., a man page is a
    place to find out, if you can't happen to remember, how to read a sed
    script from a file. It's not a place to find out the details of, say,
    the regular expression language accepted by sed.

    ....
    > Ultimately, of course, FOSS's documentation quality depends
    > on us. Ideally, if one finds a documentation deficiency,
    > one would report and fix it, and the fix gets uploaded
    > to the documentation maintainers (for that particular
    > application) for inclusion so that everyone else can
    > benefit.


    One source of documentation problems is that the documentation
    maintainers sometimes aren't the program maintainers. The documentation
    is often an independent effort, operating on an independent release
    schedule. That can lead to annoying mismatches.

    And documentation found on the web often doesn't have a timestamp, and
    doesn't explicitly list the version of the software it applies to, which
    can lead to the annoying situation of reading a document, and finding
    out after you've put a lot of time into it, that it isn't applicable to
    the version of the software you are running! Ouch!

  12. Re: Vista: now run by one in five users

    Hadron wrote:

    > Exactly my point. I want one uniform help method and man pages can be
    > brought up into emacs easily. Typical inconsistency. man pages are the
    > standard and nothing should be accepted into the development
    > repositories at least without those man pages.


    You want it? Do it yourself or get a team together. This isn't proprietary
    software.

    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

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