Linux strong #3 in OS market - Linux

This is a discussion on Linux strong #3 in OS market - Linux ; * OK fired off this tart reply: > Yes, of course, very objective. Users leave trails when surfing the > web. Sure they do, but is even Google on the trail? > Anyway, Google - the geek's search engine by ...

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Thread: Linux strong #3 in OS market

  1. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    * OK fired off this tart reply:

    > Yes, of course, very objective. Users leave trails when surfing the
    > web.


    Sure they do, but is even Google on the trail?

    > Anyway, Google - the geek's search engine by excellence - never
    > counted more than 1% Linux hits, suggesting that Linux usage in the
    > general population was even lower than that:
    >
    > http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist/jan02-pie.gif
    > http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist/nov03_pie.gif


    That doesn't mean ****. That's from when Win98 was popular, for one
    thing.

    Lying asshole.

    --
    Tux rox!

  2. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    * cc fired off this tart reply:

    > On Dec 3, 5:18 pm, Linonut wrote:
    >> * Hadron fired off this tart reply:
    >>
    >> >>http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8

    >>
    >> > "This report lists the market share of the top operating systems in use
    >> > for browsing (not servers). This data is derived by aggregating the
    >> > traffic across our network of websites that use our service. "

    >>
    >> Yeah, that's a real objective measure of "market share".
    >>
    >> If you believe that, you're just as bonehead-stupid as OK.

    >
    > What's a more objective measure than people browsing the web?


    Actually counting people. All other counts are extremely suspect.

    When will you idiots understand this?

    Web hits, even in aggregrate, mean almost /nothing/ about Linux usage.

    They may mean something about "Linux usage for surfing web sites", or
    "searching through Google", but even that is subject to obfuscating
    factors.

    And when you throw Windows bots into the mix? Forgeddaboutit.

    --
    Tux rox!

  3. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    * OK fired off this tart reply:

    > On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 17:16:57 -0500, Linonut
    > wrote:
    >
    >>* OK fired off this tart reply:
    >>
    >>> http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8

    >>
    >>Give it up, asshole.

    >
    > http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist/nov03_pie.gif
    >
    > Hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


    An /old/ pie chart.

    As I said, an asshole.

    --
    Tux rox!

  4. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    Linonut wrote:

    > * cc fired off this tart reply:
    >
    >> On Dec 3, 5:18 pm, Linonut wrote:
    >>> * Hadron fired off this tart reply:
    >>>
    >>> >>http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8
    >>>
    >>> > "This report lists the market share of the top operating systems in
    >>> > use
    >>> > for browsing (not servers). This data is derived by aggregating the
    >>> > traffic across our network of websites that use our service. "
    >>>
    >>> Yeah, that's a real objective measure of "market share".
    >>>
    >>> If you believe that, you're just as bonehead-stupid as OK.

    >>
    >> What's a more objective measure than people browsing the web?

    >
    > Actually counting people. All other counts are extremely suspect.
    >
    > When will you idiots understand this?
    >
    > Web hits, even in aggregrate, mean almost /nothing/ about Linux usage.
    >
    > They may mean something about "Linux usage for surfing web sites", or
    > "searching through Google", but even that is subject to obfuscating
    > factors.
    >
    > And when you throw Windows bots into the mix? Forgeddaboutit.
    >


    A few days ago Heise (a computer magazine company) published their
    web-browser stats.
    Their pages are accessed by 2% Konqueror *alone* and that would indicate
    about 4-5% linux users (using KDE or Gnome), as KDE and Gnome have about
    same distribution among german users. Not counted are the users of other
    desktop environments. This is *desktop* usage of linux. It also shows that
    linux usage among Heise readers massivly surpasses the apple users in
    germany

    Now, granted, Heise is a selected sample (exactly like the sites shown by
    our resident "misunderstanders"), so it would not show a generally
    applicable usage stat

    It illustrates that web counters are always selected samples, they depend on
    the distribution of readers
    --
    La perfection est atteinte non quand il ne reste rien √* ajouter,
    mais quand il ne reste rien √* enlever. (Antoine de Saint-Exup√©ry)


  5. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    Linonut writes:

    > * cc fired off this tart reply:
    >
    >> On Dec 3, 5:18 pm, Linonut wrote:
    >>> * Hadron fired off this tart reply:
    >>>
    >>> >>http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8
    >>>
    >>> > "This report lists the market share of the top operating systems in use
    >>> > for browsing (not servers). This data is derived by aggregating the
    >>> > traffic across our network of websites that use our service. "
    >>>
    >>> Yeah, that's a real objective measure of "market share".
    >>>
    >>> If you believe that, you're just as bonehead-stupid as OK.

    >>
    >> What's a more objective measure than people browsing the web?

    >
    > Actually counting people. All other counts are extremely suspect.
    >
    > When will you idiots understand this?


    Sometimes I really wonder if you are a programmer. You seem incapable of
    understanding even the basics of sampling theory.

    Counting OS hits at a wide appeal web site is as good as you're going
    to, practically, get. It indicates people USING the OS.

    2-3% of Traffic is as good as 2-3% of the market share.

    Please don't repeat that a "free os" can not have a market share because
    you just come across as an anal retentive idiot. It's blindingly obvious
    what is meant.


  6. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    Robin T Cox writes:

    > On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 12:29:56 -0600, thad05 wrote:
    >
    >> flatfish wrote:
    >>>
    >>> Yet Linux still hasn't managed to break that illusive 1 percent
    >>> barrier.
    >>>
    >>> How does this constitute a "strong #3 " ?

    >>
    >> I'd be curious to know more about the type of sites that they are
    >> aggregating their stats from. Their Linux numbers are coming in much
    >> lower than what I see in the web logs and at my ISP clients. They've had
    >> linux in the solid single digits for a while now. I've never seen an
    >> average lower than 2%. Last time I looked it was around 3.9 (and that
    >> was a while ago).
    >>
    >> Thad

    >
    > My own straw poll on this NG has only shown 2 or at most 3 reports of



    *snip*

    Guffaw. On *THIS* NG.

    You get the "thicky award" for this week. Ask Mark Kent for it.


  7. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market


    "Matt" wrote in message
    news:Ue75j.21851$B25.5443@news01.roc.ny...
    > amicus_curious wrote:
    >
    >> I run a communit website for homeowners in a gated subdivision with about
    >> 500 houses.

    >
    > And do you make the site presentable when viewed with Firefox? Or is it
    > best viewed with IE?
    >
    > If your site looks like hell with FF, we couldn't be surprised that you
    > get few Linux hits.


    It looks the same with either, of course. It's just FrontPage stuff, after
    all.


  8. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    Hadron wrote:
    >
    > Sometimes I really wonder if you are a programmer. You seem incapable of
    > understanding even the basics of sampling theory.
    >
    > Counting OS hits at a wide appeal web site is as good as you're going
    > to, practically, get. It indicates people USING the OS.
    >
    > 2-3% of Traffic is as good as 2-3% of the market share.
    >
    > Please don't repeat that a "free os" can not have a market share because
    > you just come across as an anal retentive idiot. It's blindingly obvious
    > what is meant.


    Insulting language aside, I have to side with Hadron on this point.
    Barring actual house to house sampling, web stats are probably about
    the best we will get to estimate real world deployment on the
    consumer desktop. My only argument is with the accuracy of some
    of the samples thrown around here. I am skeptical of a source
    that claims only 0.5% Linux share when I've seen plenty of other
    sources with very large samples that show it in the solid single
    digits.

    Ultimately, I don't get very cranked up about it one way or another.
    Whether it is 0.5 or 5.0%, Linux meets my particular needs and appears
    to be constantly expanding and improving. That is enough for me.

    Later,

    Thad


  9. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    >Hadron wrote:
    >>
    >> Please don't repeat that a "free os" can not have a market share because
    >> you just come across as an anal retentive idiot.


    That's your buddy amicus who makes that claim, so tell him.


  10. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    On Tue, 4 Dec 2007 08:36:17 -0500, Linonut
    wrote:

    >* OK fired off this tart reply:
    >
    >> On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 17:16:57 -0500, Linonut
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>>* OK fired off this tart reply:
    >>>
    >>>> http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8
    >>>
    >>>Give it up, asshole.

    >>
    >> http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist/nov03_pie.gif
    >>
    >> Hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

    >
    >An /old/ pie chart.
    >
    >As I said, an asshole.


    Hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... here is a fresh one:

    http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8


  11. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, OK

    wrote
    on Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:55:23 +0100
    :
    > On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 07:08:39 GMT, Matt
    > wrote:
    >
    >>OK wrote:


    [snippage]

    >>> Beside that OpenGL is not a 2nd class citizen on Windows, which means
    >>> its essentially dead (the 0.57% Linux users will not be enough to
    >>> justify any new developement on that antique 3D platform)

    >>
    >>There is recent work on OpenGL standardization. It is used in
    >>cross-platform games. ActiveX is limited to Windows.

    >
    > Oh, I see, ActiveX is what you think to be the equivalent of OpenGL.


    ActiveX is far more general than OpenGL. For starters,
    ActiveX allows for a component to manage the entire machine
    (video, audio, file system, keyboard, mouse, etc.), if the
    user accepts the "trust" requester upon its start and the
    user has sufficient privileges.

    ActiveX should be able to run on Linux with WinE installed,
    though I'm not sure of the scope of its activities in such
    an environment.

    OpenGL, apart from some specialized computational uses
    (e.g., 4x4 matrix solutions), is purely visual. It is
    also being upstaged by DirectX10 on Windows Vista, and
    it is possible someone's raising unrealistic expectations
    regarding DirectX10:

    http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...ator-developer

    in the hopes that people will go to Windows for gaming,
    and developers will port each game's graphics engine
    to DirectX10.

    > Hahahaha. Keep writing shell scripts.


    Python in particular can have OpenGL bindings. It appears
    Python has ActiveX capabilities as well on Windows -- which
    is logical enough, since ActiveX (actually, COM) after
    all has QueryInterface and a well-known calling sequence.

    I do not know how Python would manage DirectX10 bindings.

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Linux. Because life's too short for a buggy OS.

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  12. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    OK wrote:

    >>>>>> Look at the w3schools site that gets posted here all the time. Linux has
    >>>>>> a miserable share, and dropping, on that one as well.
    >>>>> Are you citing the w3schools site as the key indicator of the take-up of
    >>>>> Linux going forward?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Please explain why, and confirm that this is the site you mean:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> http://w3schools.com/
    >>>> I s'pose he means this page:
    >>>> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp
    >>>>
    >>>> Here is the more important consideration (cross-platform browser Firefox
    >>>> at 36.0% prevalence, up from 28.8% the previous year):
    >>>> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
    >>>>
    >>>> Firefox and ODF will break the Windows lock-in for millions, leading to
    >>>> a general demand for porting applications to Linux and Mac, using
    >>>> cross-platform systems such as Java and OpenGL.
    >>> ..except that the w3schools stats are based on hits on their own
    >>> website (unlike http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8
    >>> which aggreate hits from a number of websites and webcounters)
    >>>
    >>> Also note that w3schools is aimed at web developers, a population
    >>> *believed* to be vastly favorable to FF and Linux, but despite that
    >>> claim, IE and Windows comes our very far ahead among the web
    >>> developers visiting w3schools,

    >> Right, since w3schools measures browser preferences of website
    >> developers, things look even more favorable for Firefox: it implies that
    >> an increasing proportion of website developers are using (hence
    >> developing for) Firefox instead of (nonstandard, Windows-only) IE
    >> browsers. So there is a snowball effect favoring Firefox.
    >>
    >> The w3schools _trend_ toward Firefox is the thing to notice.
    >>
    >>> Linux is even regressing...

    >> First the most important apps (browser, office apps), then the OS.
    >>
    >>> Beside that OpenGL is not a 2nd class citizen on Windows, which means
    >>> its essentially dead (the 0.57% Linux users will not be enough to
    >>> justify any new developement on that antique 3D platform)

    >> There is recent work on OpenGL standardization. It is used in
    >> cross-platform games. ActiveX is limited to Windows.

    >
    > Oh, I see, ActiveX is what you think to be the equivalent of OpenGL.
    > Hahahaha. Keep writing shell scripts.


    Well of course I meant Direct3D. Whatever---point is it's a throw-away
    platform-specific API.

  13. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    amicus_curious wrote:

    > I would think that the answer would be obvious to anyone. ¬*People are not
    > using Linux to do much web surfing in general purpose areas. ¬*When some
    > Linux fan is surfing the web it seems to generally be in search of a
    > driver or two or else to download the weekly release of Ubuntu or even to
    > find some other Linux fan to comiserate with. ¬*Thus they have no time for
    > the general purpose sort of web surfing that regular people indulge in and
    > so they do not show up in the statistics.


    Pfffft. I spend precious little time tinkering with my Linux installation. I
    let it update when it needs to and that's about it. Everything I needed to
    web-surf, do email, watch videos and listen to audio, etc, was in place
    after my initial install. It worked with all my hardware without even a
    hiccup.

  14. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:47:30 -0500, Tattoo Vampire
    wrote:

    >amicus_curious wrote:
    >
    >> I would think that the answer would be obvious to anyone. *People are not
    >> using Linux to do much web surfing in general purpose areas. *When some
    >> Linux fan is surfing the web it seems to generally be in search of a
    >> driver or two or else to download the weekly release of Ubuntu or even to
    >> find some other Linux fan to comiserate with. *Thus they have no time for
    >> the general purpose sort of web surfing that regular people indulge in and
    >> so they do not show up in the statistics.

    >
    >Pfffft. I spend precious little time tinkering with my Linux installation. I
    >let it update when it needs to and that's about it. Everything I needed to
    >web-surf, do email, watch videos and listen to audio, etc, was in place
    >after my initial install. It worked with all my hardware without even a
    >hiccup.


    I don't doubt that.

  15. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    On Dec 4, 8:35 am, Linonut wrote:
    > * cc fired off this tart reply:
    >
    > > On Dec 3, 5:18 pm, Linonut wrote:
    > >> * Hadron fired off this tart reply:

    >
    > >> >>http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8

    >
    > >> > "This report lists the market share of the top operating systems in use
    > >> > for browsing (not servers). This data is derived by aggregating the
    > >> > traffic across our network of websites that use our service. "

    >
    > >> Yeah, that's a real objective measure of "market share".

    >
    > >> If you believe that, you're just as bonehead-stupid as OK.

    >
    > > What's a more objective measure than people browsing the web?

    >
    > Actually counting people. All other counts are extremely suspect.
    >
    > When will you idiots understand this?



    When will you idiots understand that almost all people who use a
    computer, surf the web. You're not more likely to visit websites (in
    general websites, not specific websites) because you use Windows. The
    OS has nothing to do with it. So you want to estimate how many users
    there are of an OS. People surf the web regardless of OS. Therefore
    web stats are an unbiased way of estimating users of an OS. Like all
    statistics, it has to been done right, but there are people out there
    doing.



    > Web hits, even in aggregrate, mean almost /nothing/ about Linux usage.
    >
    > They may mean something about "Linux usage for surfing web sites", or
    > "searching through Google", but even that is subject to obfuscating
    > factors.


    See, either you're purposefully being a jackass, or you just don't
    understand statistics. It doesn't mean anything about "Linux usage for
    surfing websites." It means "Linux usage for surfting websites vs. all
    other OSes," which is proportionate "Linux usage vs. all other OSes."

    > And when you throw Windows bots into the mix? Forgeddaboutit.
    >


    Are Windows bots running on Linux now? It's not volume of traffic
    that's measured.


  16. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    On Dec 4, 12:18 pm, tha...@tux.glaci.delete-this.com wrote:
    > Hadron wrote:
    >
    > > Sometimes I really wonder if you are a programmer. You seem incapable of
    > > understanding even the basics of sampling theory.

    >
    > > Counting OS hits at a wide appeal web site is as good as you're going
    > > to, practically, get. It indicates people USING the OS.

    >
    > > 2-3% of Traffic is as good as 2-3% of the market share.

    >
    > > Please don't repeat that a "free os" can not have a market share because
    > > you just come across as an anal retentive idiot. It's blindingly obvious
    > > what is meant.

    >
    > Insulting language aside, I have to side with Hadron on this point.
    > Barring actual house to house sampling, web stats are probably about
    > the best we will get to estimate real world deployment on the
    > consumer desktop. My only argument is with the accuracy of some
    > of the samples thrown around here. I am skeptical of a source
    > that claims only 0.5% Linux share when I've seen plenty of other
    > sources with very large samples that show it in the solid single
    > digits.
    >
    > Ultimately, I don't get very cranked up about it one way or another.
    > Whether it is 0.5 or 5.0%, Linux meets my particular needs and appears
    > to be constantly expanding and improving. That is enough for me.
    >


    Yes, exactly. "Linux usage < 1%" posts are generally just looking to
    rile up some people, so I wasn't trying to defend that. Linonut got
    mad at me and snipped my main points, but 3rd place and hopefully
    growing is nothing to be pissy about or try to exaggerate.

  17. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    * Hadron fired off this tart reply:

    > Sometimes I really wonder if you are a programmer. You seem incapable of
    > understanding even the basics of sampling theory.


    What does programming have to do with sampling theory?

    In any case, I've approached statistical analysis from three different
    angles in my academic "career":

    o statistical thermodynamics and quantum theory
    o stats for psychology, including various forms of multivariate
    analysis
    o signal-detection theory

    It is you who does not seem to understand "sampling theory".

    > Counting OS hits at a wide appeal web site is as good as you're going
    > to, practically, get. It indicates people USING the OS.


    Even that is /not/ necessarily true.

    Browser headers modifications, proxies, even packet spoofing are
    possible.

    > 2-3% of Traffic is as good as 2-3% of the market share.


    No. It is /not/.

    Never heard of web bots?

    > Please don't repeat that a "free os" can not have a market share because
    > you just come across as an anal retentive idiot. It's blindingly obvious
    > what is meant.


    I, myself, have never made that mistake in this and related threads.

    In any case....

    Peter, I think you can add "sampling theory" to the list of Hadron's
    "accomplishments".

    --
    Tux rox!

  18. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    * thad05@tux.glaci.delete-this.com fired off this tart reply:

    > Insulting language aside, I have to side with Hadron on this point.
    > Barring actual house to house sampling, web stats are probably about
    > the best we will get to estimate real world deployment on the
    > consumer desktop.


    Then they are not very good.

    This is a world of spoofing, web bots, automated astroturfing, open proxies, and browser obfuscation.

    > My only argument is with the accuracy of some
    > of the samples thrown around here. I am skeptical of a source
    > that claims only 0.5% Linux share when I've seen plenty of other
    > sources with very large samples that show it in the solid single
    > digits.


    I certainly would not contend that, when count the massive number of
    consumers out there, that Linux has more than a single-digit
    representation. I know very few consumers who have the savvy and
    fortitude to go beyond what is handed to them by "the system".

    Sure, a fair number will try a new browser.

    But a new operating system? No way.

    > Ultimately, I don't get very cranked up about it one way or another.
    > Whether it is 0.5 or 5.0%, Linux meets my particular needs and appears
    > to be constantly expanding and improving. That is enough for me.


    I get cranked up about a small sampling of idiots continually posting
    the same small sampling of "market hits" web sites.

    You might as well sample the viewer statistics for advertisements to
    determine the state of higher education in the U.S.

    It is ludicrous in the extreme. Trolling numbskulls like Hadron,
    flatfish, and OK rely on some very basic misunderstandings of statistics.

    I do hope to have some more interesting numbers at some point, but my
    wife's hospital stay is my priority.

    --
    Sampling Linux usage by browser statistics?

    You might as well sample the viewer statistics for advertisements to
    determine the state of higher education in the U.S.

  19. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    * cc fired off this tart reply:

    >> Actually counting people. All other counts are extremely suspect.
    >>
    >> When will you idiots understand this?

    >
    > When will you idiots understand that almost all people who use a
    > computer, surf the web. You're not more likely to visit websites (in
    > general websites, not specific websites) because you use Windows. The
    > OS has nothing to do with it. So you want to estimate how many users
    > there are of an OS. People surf the web regardless of OS. Therefore
    > web stats are an unbiased way of estimating users of an OS.


    You need to really check out the statistical meaning of "bias".

    > Are Windows bots running on Linux now? It's not volume of traffic
    > that's measured.


    Obviously. (My god! The obtuseness!)

    --
    Tux rox!

  20. Re: Linux strong #3 in OS market

    Linonut writes:

    > * cc fired off this tart reply:
    >
    >> Yes, exactly. "Linux usage < 1%" posts are generally just looking to
    >> rile up some people, so I wasn't trying to defend that. Linonut got
    >> mad at me and snipped my main points, but 3rd place and hopefully
    >> growing is nothing to be pissy about or try to exaggerate.

    >
    > I'm not "mad" at you. I'm dumbfounded that you think the stats are
    > meaning full.
    >
    > There is almost no way, unless you can access the logs of all the access
    > points through which those packets come and go, to determine what the
    > real numbers are.
    >
    > And, even if you do, it /still/ does not tell you anything more than
    > Linux usage by people who browse.


    What is gob smacking is your inability to see outside of the box. There
    will NEVER be "real" numbers. It's all based on sampling.
    >
    > The "market hits" sites can be affected by various things, and until you
    > account for them (preferable by multivariate analysis), you won't have
    > reliable numbers.


    Bull****. Find a website that appeals across all trenches and see the
    relative proportions.

    Remember we are talking percentages, NOT REAL NUMBERS.

    --
    La televisión es una hija del cine que le ha salido disipada y de malas
    costumbres.
    -- Ram√≥n J. S√©nder. (1902-1982) Escritor espa√Īol.

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