On Wednesday 05 Dec 2007 12:20 pm, Mark Kent wrote in comp.os.linux.advocacy:

> William Poaster espoused:
>> On Wednesday 05 Dec 2007 8:40 am, BearItAll wrote in comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>>
>>> Mark Kent wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But that to me is wrong. Because I don't see cc as a troll so I don't
>>>>>> think he should be included in Kent's list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kent's list?? Where?
>>>>
>>>> Carved in ancient runic script in tablets of stone..?
>>>>
>>>> Beats me, mate!
>>
>>
>>
>> Idiot.
>>
>
> I kfiled bearitall when he got abusive.

He seems to want to side with the trolls, he takes the consequences.

--
Operating systems: FreeBSD 6.2 (64bit), PC-BSD 1.4,
Testing: FreeBSD 7.0-BETA 3
Linux systems: Kubuntu 7.10 "Gutsy" amd64,
Debian 4.0, PCLinuxOS 2007.

William Poaster espoused:
> On Wednesday 05 Dec 2007 12:20 pm, Mark Kent wrote in comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>
>> William Poaster espoused:
>>> On Wednesday 05 Dec 2007 8:40 am, BearItAll wrote in comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>>>
>>>> Mark Kent wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But that to me is wrong. Because I don't see cc as a troll so I don't
>>>>>>> think he should be included in Kent's list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kent's list?? Where?
>>>>>
>>>>> Carved in ancient runic script in tablets of stone..?
>>>>>
>>>>> Beats me, mate!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Idiot.
>>>
>>
>> I kfiled bearitall when he got abusive.
>
> He seems to want to side with the trolls, he takes the consequences.
>

I've not read him for some time, so I'm not sure. He seemed to start
out okay, but, along with Peter K and Spike got all irrational about
GPLv3. Can't be doing with irrational folk...

--
| Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
| Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
| Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
| My (new) blog: http://www.thereisnomagic.org |

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Hadron

wrote
on Wed, 05 Dec 2007 04:42:18 +0100
:
> Kier writes:
>
>> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:48:37 -0800, cc wrote:
>>
>>> On Dec 4, 11:59 am, Tim Smith wrote:
>>>> On 2007-12-04, cc wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Dec 3, 8:54 pm, Tim Smith wrote:
>>>> >> There's actually only one Q that is FAed, as far as I've seen: which
>>>> >> distro should I use? Since the opinions on that change as fashion and
>>>> >> the group's composition change, I'm not sure that really has a good
>>>> >> answer that could go in a FAQ.
>>>>
>>>> > If you're new to Linux then go towww.distrowatch.comand download the
>>>> > most popular one. Guaranteed to have alot of support since it is
>>>> > currently being used by the most people.
>>>>
>>>> > If you're not new, post what you're looking for in a distro for
>>>> > Christ's sake. We're not mind readers.
>>>>
>>>> That's a common answer to that question. However, I disagree with it.
>>>> My answer is:
>>>>
>>>> Go to a bookstore and find the Linux section. Browse through the
>>>> books and find one you like, that has a CD included. Buy that book,
>>>> and start with the distro on that CD. Having a good book at hand as
>>>> you learn will be very helpful, especially for those steps of
>>>> installation where you might not have network access.
>>>>
>>>> Later, after you are comfortable with the distro that came with the
>>>> book, you will be knowledgeable enough to evaluate other distros
>>>> yourself. Start at distrowatch.com.
>>>
>>> That's a good one too. How good are the Linux books for beginners
>>> though? I've never used one myself.
>>
>> Most I've looked at seem to be pretty good.
>
> Why would you need a f*cking book to use an OS?!?!?!?!??!?
>

Define "book".

I could go far afield here, but basically a book helps
to communicate the capabilities of an OS, a system, a
computer unit, to someone who may not understand or know
the details thereof. There are other means to that end,
of varying utility/effectiveness.

[1] Self-documentation. Assuming it's obvious that one
can use a "Help" menu or some such, a utility can
provide its own documentation (or, in some cases,
a reader using an outside server) and bring up what
is needed for use. This is admittedly less than ideal
for those first encountering the tool, mostly because
the broad roadmap might not be clear, but it might
be handy for little "jog hints".

[2] HTML. Everyone now uses a more or less standardized
fat client -- a web browser -- and servers can leverage
that client to display text. Microsoft in particular
has its MSDN library, which not only displays help
but also provides sophisticated list management.
IMO, that's overkill for this particular problem, but
it illustrates the "fat client"/web browser nicely.
Something along the lines of Gtk or PHP is more than
adequate, consisting of little more than a table of
contents and explanatory text as to the procedure
name, what it does, what parameters it needs, what
it returns. Unfortunately parts of the Gtk interface
remain undocumented. I've not looked at Qt.

[3] Ask a question on a forum (Usenet, web forum, etc.).
There's a few problems with this, mostly of the
form "how do I phrase the question" -- and then one
has to wait for the answer, which makes this a
"round trip" problem.

[4] .h/.hpp files. While highly condensed and at times
very cryptic, they're better than nothing. The general
idea is to find the routine names and the parameter
types. In many include files a short comment is
nearby as well; if one's really lucky it will contain a
sentence or two about the general use of the routine.
Note that compilers generally require .h/.hpp files
to do anything useful with a library.

[5] .c/.cpp files. This is generally unavailable to the
end user in most closed-source applications, but at
least with FOSS one can get it, in a pinch. The
internals are laid bare for anyone to read, though
the clarity may be lacking, depending on how good
the writer is. (Assuming the writer is human; automated
translators such as yacc and bison have been around for
awhile.)

[6] Man pages. These are actually fat clients as well,
though primarily text-based. The general idea is
based on nroff/troff (if anyone remembers those),
as opposed to HTML; the implementation now uses
a GNU variant thereof.

[7] Kindle. I'm not entirely sure as to its capabilities
but Amazon now has an interesting standalone fat
client realized in hardware. Presumably it, among
other things, contains an HTML fat client, a cache,
an ultra-low power display, and a battery. However,
it's missing some capabilities, which I'll detail
below.

[8] Paperback or hardcover book. Curl up with it, put
sticky tabs on its pages to mark important passages,
use a highlighter on the important bits, put it in a
library and have it look impressive -- it's cheap,
easy to use, and, assuming one can read English,
actually might assist in learning subject matter,
giving one's mind a voyage through imaginary worlds,
or just giving one a chuckle on occasion.

As someone once put it, the only intuitive interface is
the human nipple, and, if one wants to include it, the
male member, and both of those have at least two modes
(three if one counts various forms of torture).

--
#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
Murphy was an optimist.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Wednesday 05 Dec 2007 1:22 pm, Mark Kent wrote in comp.os.linux.advocacy:

> William Poaster espoused:
>> On Wednesday 05 Dec 2007 12:20 pm, Mark Kent wrote in
>> comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>>
>>> William Poaster espoused:
>>>> On Wednesday 05 Dec 2007 8:40 am, BearItAll wrote in
>>>> comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>>>>
>>>>> Mark Kent wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But that to me is wrong. Because I don't see cc as a troll so I don't
>>>>>>>> think he should be included in Kent's list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kent's list?? Where?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Carved in ancient runic script in tablets of stone..?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Beats me, mate!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Idiot.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I kfiled bearitall when he got abusive.
>>
>> He seems to want to side with the trolls, he takes the consequences.
>>
>
> I've not read him for some time, so I'm not sure. He seemed to start
> out okay, but, along with Peter K and Spike got all irrational about
> GPLv3. Can't be doing with irrational folk...

Seems like he's leaving anyway.

--
Operating systems: FreeBSD 6.2 (64bit), PC-BSD 1.4,
Testing: FreeBSD 7.0-BETA 3
Linux systems: Kubuntu 7.10 "Gutsy" amd64,
Debian 4.0, PCLinuxOS 2007.

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On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:11:17 +0100,
Hadron wrote:
>
> Kier writes:
>
>> On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:49:19 +0100, Hadron wrote:
>>
>>> You do realise that good documentation removes the need for a book?
>>
>> YOu're the one saying there's no good documentation. Your whole argumnent
>> makes zero sense, you're just whining for the sake of it.
>
> Let's take it slowly. I find it incredible that so many people do indeed
> buy a book for Linux. In some ways it can be justified because of the
> total environment change. Things are MUCH more complicated in Linux land
> - even just learning the basics can be hard because of the
> "choice". However, decent desktop tutorials/introductions and
> documentation would remove the need for half the books out there.
>

given the huge number of books on using MS-Windows, does that mean that
MS-Windows has crap tutorials/introduction and documentation?


> Yes, I like good books. And I do own the Debian Bible. But thats more
> for browsing hints n tips than "getting going".
>
>>
>> Some people, amazingly enough, still like to use books. And a good book
>> allied to an appropriate Linux distro is one way of helping a newbie to
>> get to know Linux. What's your problem with that?
>
> It shouldn't be mandatory. Sometimes it seems it almost is.
>




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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
My friends tell me that I refuse to grow up, but I know they're just
jealous because they don't have pajamas with feet.

Jim Richardson writes:

> On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:11:17 +0100,
> Hadron wrote:
>>
>> Kier writes:
>>
>>> On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:49:19 +0100, Hadron wrote:
>>>
>>>> You do realise that good documentation removes the need for a book?
>>>
>>> YOu're the one saying there's no good documentation. Your whole argumnent
>>> makes zero sense, you're just whining for the sake of it.
>>
>> Let's take it slowly. I find it incredible that so many people do indeed
>> buy a book for Linux. In some ways it can be justified because of the
>> total environment change. Things are MUCH more complicated in Linux land
>> - even just learning the basics can be hard because of the
>> "choice". However, decent desktop tutorials/introductions and
>> documentation would remove the need for half the books out there.
>>
>
> given the huge number of books on using MS-Windows, does that mean that
> MS-Windows has crap tutorials/introduction and documentation?
>

Who mentioned Linux/Windows?

Again - needing a book to use a desktop OS is madness IMO. The
documentation SHOULD be sufficient on any platform. OSS generally falls
down IMO.

Hadron wrote:

> Jim Richardson writes:
>
>> On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:11:17 +0100,
>> Hadron wrote:
>>>
>>> Kier writes:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:49:19 +0100, Hadron wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You do realise that good documentation removes the need for a book?
>>>>
>>>> YOu're the one saying there's no good documentation. Your whole
>>>> argumnent makes zero sense, you're just whining for the sake of it.
>>>
>>> Let's take it slowly. I find it incredible that so many people do indeed
>>> buy a book for Linux. In some ways it can be justified because of the
>>> total environment change. Things are MUCH more complicated in Linux land
>>> - even just learning the basics can be hard because of the
>>> "choice". However, decent desktop tutorials/introductions and
>>> documentation would remove the need for half the books out there.
>>>
>>
>> given the huge number of books on using MS-Windows, does that mean that
>> MS-Windows has crap tutorials/introduction and documentation?
>>
>
> Who mentioned Linux/Windows?
>
> Again - needing a book to use a desktop OS is madness IMO. The
> documentation SHOULD be sufficient on any platform. OSS generally falls
> down IMO.

Nice way not to answer the question, "true linux advocate", "kernel
hacker", "emacs user", "swapfile expert", "X specialist", "CUPS
guru", "USB-disk server admin", "defragger professional", "newsreader
magician", "hardware maven" and "time coordinator" Hadron Quark, aka Hans
Schneider, aka Richard, aka Damian O'Leary

--
Microsoft's Guide To System Design:
Let it get in YOUR way. The problem for your problem.

William Poaster espoused:
> On Wednesday 05 Dec 2007 1:22 pm, Mark Kent wrote in comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>
>> William Poaster espoused:
>>> On Wednesday 05 Dec 2007 12:20 pm, Mark Kent wrote in
>>> comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>>>
>>>> William Poaster espoused:
>>>>> On Wednesday 05 Dec 2007 8:40 am, BearItAll wrote in
>>>>> comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark Kent wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But that to me is wrong. Because I don't see cc as a troll so I don't
>>>>>>>>> think he should be included in Kent's list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kent's list?? Where?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Carved in ancient runic script in tablets of stone..?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Beats me, mate!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Idiot.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I kfiled bearitall when he got abusive.
>>>
>>> He seems to want to side with the trolls, he takes the consequences.
>>>
>>
>> I've not read him for some time, so I'm not sure. He seemed to start
>> out okay, but, along with Peter K and Spike got all irrational about
>> GPLv3. Can't be doing with irrational folk...
>
> Seems like he's leaving anyway.
>

Really? Oh well...

--
| Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
| Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
| Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
| My (new) blog: http://www.thereisnomagic.org |

>Hadron trolled:
>
>> Jim Richardson writes:
>>
>>> Hadron trolled:
>>>>
>>>>However, decent desktop tutorials/introductions and
>>>> documentation would remove the need for half the books out there.
>>>
>>> given the huge number of books on using MS-Windows, does that mean that
>>> MS-Windows has crap tutorials/introduction and documentation?
>>
>> Who mentioned Linux/Windows?

I think the should be "who just made a jackasshole of himself again?"

(The answer would be you, Quirk.)

>> Again - needing a book to use a desktop OS is madness IMO. The
>> documentation SHOULD be sufficient on any platform. OSS generally falls
>> down IMO.

What "falls down" is your pathetic, illogical attack on OSS, you POS.

On Thu, 6 Dec 2007 11:57:04 +0000, Mark Kent
wrote:

>William Poaster espoused:
>> On Wednesday 05 Dec 2007 1:22 pm, Mark Kent wrote in comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>>
>>> William Poaster espoused:
>>>> On Wednesday 05 Dec 2007 12:20 pm, Mark Kent wrote in
>>>> comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>>>>
>>>>> William Poaster espoused:
>>>>>> On Wednesday 05 Dec 2007 8:40 am, BearItAll wrote in
>>>>>> comp.os.linux.advocacy:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mark Kent wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But that to me is wrong. Because I don't see cc as a troll so I don't
>>>>>>>>>> think he should be included in Kent's list.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kent's list?? Where?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Carved in ancient runic script in tablets of stone..?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Beats me, mate!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Idiot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I kfiled bearitall when he got abusive.
>>>>
>>>> He seems to want to side with the trolls, he takes the consequences.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've not read him for some time, so I'm not sure. He seemed to start
>>> out okay, but, along with Peter K and Spike got all irrational about
>>> GPLv3. Can't be doing with irrational folk...
>>
>> Seems like he's leaving anyway.
>>
>
>Really? Oh well...

So now you're down to 5 advocates again.
How come you guys keep scaring them all away?

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Hadron

wrote
on Thu, 06 Dec 2007 01:39:53 +0100
:
> Jim Richardson writes:
>
>> On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:11:17 +0100,
>> Hadron wrote:
>>>
>>> Kier writes:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:49:19 +0100, Hadron wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You do realise that good documentation removes the need for a book?
>>>>
>>>> YOu're the one saying there's no good documentation. Your whole argumnent
>>>> makes zero sense, you're just whining for the sake of it.
>>>
>>> Let's take it slowly. I find it incredible that so many people do indeed
>>> buy a book for Linux. In some ways it can be justified because of the
>>> total environment change. Things are MUCH more complicated in Linux land
>>> - even just learning the basics can be hard because of the
>>> "choice". However, decent desktop tutorials/introductions and
>>> documentation would remove the need for half the books out there.
>>>
>>
>> given the huge number of books on using MS-Windows, does that mean that
>> MS-Windows has crap tutorials/introduction and documentation?
>>
>
> Who mentioned Linux/Windows?
>
> Again - needing a book to use a desktop OS is madness IMO. The
> documentation SHOULD be sufficient on any platform. OSS generally falls
> down IMO.
>

And what is a book, but another document?

But you're right in that OSS has a problem; the
documentation available for it generally can't keep up
with the code changes. This is a process issue, though
it's hard to say how serious it is.

Microsoft might have an advantage here, since they don't
upgrade their stuff as often. Of course the flip side to
that is that they fall behind.

--
#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #104392:
for(int i = 0; i < 1000000; i++) sleep(0);

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com