How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ? - Linux

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Thread: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

  1. How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    Next year I would like to go to University to do a BSc Computer
    Science.

    However, I think my job prospects on leaving University would be
    greatly enhanced if I had studied Open Source computing. A lot of
    companies seem to be using it, but Universities insist on turning out
    graduates who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.

    Does anyone know of a university with a degree in Open Source
    Computing, or a degree which has a large element of Open Source ?

    If I make my choice, what Open Source type modules should you think I
    should be looking for. Obviously operating systems (linux, of
    course), but what else ?

    I live in the UK, and want to study here - does anyone know of a
    suitable course in the UK ? However, suggestions as to what modules I
    should take are welcome from anywhere.

    Your suggestions and guidance would be appreciated.

    Finbarr


  2. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    finbarr2008@googlemail.com wrote:


    > However, I think my job prospects on leaving University would be
    > greatly enhanced if I had studied Open Source computing. *


    It's sort of like regular computing, except the software sucks, the pay is
    bad, the hardware is old, and the beard is scraggly.


    > A lot of
    > companies seem to be using it, but Universities insist on turning out
    > graduates who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.


    Those are the graduates who understand how the world works. *

    *
    > Does anyone know of a university with a degree in Open Source
    > Computing, or a degree which has a large element of Open Source ?


    After a fashion: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm


    *
    > If I make my choice, what Open Source type modules should you think I
    > should be looking for. *Obviously operating systems (linux, of
    > course), but what else ?


    Any of these subjects will give you a headstart in the OSS world:

    Freeloading For Life
    Designing Clones Of MS Office
    Borrowing Ideas From Microsoft
    Whining About Windows
    Lying About Microsoft
    Windows By Day, Linux By Night

    The local cola "advocates" are PhDs in these fields, so you're in the right
    place.


  3. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    finbarr2008@googlemail.com wrote:

    > .. Universities insist on turning out graduates who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.


    Real computer science people are hard to train, that's why most
    businesses go with the click-and-fill-in-some-tick-boxes merchants that
    are laughing refered to as Microsoft trained professionals.

    You may have to do a conventional BSc course, but with access to the
    computer lab, you can do your own pet project on the side.

  4. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Oct 30, 9:44 am, "finbarr2...@googlemail.com"
    wrote:
    > Next year I would like to go to University to do a BSc Computer
    > Science.
    >
    > However, I think my job prospects on leaving University would be
    > greatly enhanced if I had studied Open Source computing. A lot of
    > companies seem to be using it, but Universities insist on turning out
    > graduates who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.
    >
    > Does anyone know of a university with a degree in Open Source
    > Computing, or a degree which has a large element of Open Source ?
    >
    > If I make my choice, what Open Source type modules should you think I
    > should be looking for. Obviously operating systems (linux, of
    > course), but what else ?
    >
    > I live in the UK, and want to study here - does anyone know of a
    > suitable course in the UK ? However, suggestions as to what modules I
    > should take are welcome from anywhere.
    >
    > Your suggestions and guidance would be appreciated.
    >
    > Finbarr



    In the USA (and in a South American country I am familiar with), the
    academic situation is very clear. You have respected universities and
    colleges, and then you have community colleges and others which seem
    to be branches of the Disney Corporation.

    As a rule of thumb, the higher the academic rigor, intellectual level
    and research standing, the less teaching of Windows and related
    "knowledge" you will see on the institution. In every single one of
    the best universities, the teaching is firmly based on Unix and open
    source. In fact, a substantial fraction of OSS is produced precisely
    by those schools. The community colleges OTH, crank out graduates
    whose skills are pretty much limited at Visual Basic, Excel and SQL
    server.

    In every single one of the best USA universities, there is a
    widespread presence Unix and OSS:

    - MIT (birthplace of OSS)
    - Caltech (founded by former MITers not too happy with the Boston
    weather)
    - Stanford (they brought us Google)
    - Berkeley (need I say more?)
    - Carnegie Mellon
    - Georgia Tech
    - Yale U.
    - Columbia (of Kermit fame)
    - Washington University (WU ftp)

    We could get into the corporate area, where the general rule applies
    as well: the most respected and successful companies will have a
    higher use of Unix and/or OSS. Let's just compare the Bank of America
    with some inconsequential little bank, not to mention Fedex, NYSE,
    etc.

    Additionally, there are other fertile grounds where OSS is being
    nurtured, such as NASA.

    -Ramon




  5. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Oct 30, 4:08 pm, Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    > On Oct 30, 9:44 am, "finbarr2...@googlemail.com"
    >
    >
    >
    > wrote:
    > > Next year I would like to go to University to do a BSc Computer
    > > Science.

    >
    > > However, I think my job prospects on leaving University would be
    > > greatly enhanced if I had studied Open Source computing. A lot of
    > > companies seem to be using it, but Universities insist on turning out
    > > graduates who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.

    >
    > > Does anyone know of a university with a degree in Open Source
    > > Computing, or a degree which has a large element of Open Source ?

    >
    > > If I make my choice, what Open Source type modules should you think I
    > > should be looking for. Obviously operating systems (linux, of
    > > course), but what else ?

    >
    > > I live in the UK, and want to study here - does anyone know of a
    > > suitable course in the UK ? However, suggestions as to what modules I
    > > should take are welcome from anywhere.

    >
    > > Your suggestions and guidance would be appreciated.

    >
    > > Finbarr

    >
    > In the USA (and in a South American country I am familiar with), the
    > academic situation is very clear. You have respected universities and
    > colleges, and then you have community colleges and others which seem
    > to be branches of the Disney Corporation.
    >
    > As a rule of thumb, the higher the academic rigor, intellectual level
    > and research standing, the less teaching of Windows and related
    > "knowledge" you will see on the institution. In every single one of
    > the best universities, the teaching is firmly based on Unix and open
    > source. In fact, a substantial fraction of OSS is produced precisely
    > by those schools. The community colleges OTH, crank out graduates
    > whose skills are pretty much limited at Visual Basic, Excel and SQL
    > server.
    >
    > In every single one of the best USA universities, there is a
    > widespread presence Unix and OSS:
    >
    > - MIT (birthplace of OSS)
    > - Caltech (founded by former MITers not too happy with the Boston
    > weather)
    > - Stanford (they brought us Google)
    > - Berkeley (need I say more?)
    > - Carnegie Mellon
    > - Georgia Tech
    > - Yale U.
    > - Columbia (of Kermit fame)
    > - Washington University (WU ftp)
    >
    > We could get into the corporate area, where the general rule applies
    > as well: the most respected and successful companies will have a
    > higher use of Unix and/or OSS. Let's just compare the Bank of America
    > with some inconsequential little bank, not to mention Fedex, NYSE,
    > etc.
    >
    > Additionally, there are other fertile grounds where OSS is being
    > nurtured, such as NASA.
    >
    > -Ramon


    So are you saying there appears to be a distinction between academic
    (Universities - underpinning knowledge and platform independent) and
    vocational ( Colleges - all things Microsoft) ?

    I was surprised to see from other postings that there are clearly some
    strong advocates of Microsoft in this Group.


    Finbarr


  6. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Oct 30, 9:44 am, "finbarr2...@googlemail.com"
    wrote:
    > Next year I would like to go to University to do a BSc Computer
    > Science.


    For the moment, I'll assume that you are not a troll.

    > However, I think my job prospects on leaving University would be
    > greatly enhanced if I had studied Open Source computing. A lot of
    > companies seem to be using it, but Universities insist on turning out
    > graduates who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.


    Unfortunately, I think that is becoming way too common. There are
    many schools, especially technical schools, who's only goal is to get
    someone prepared for the MCSE exam so that they can call themselves
    "Engineers".

    > Does anyone know of a university with a degree in Open Source
    > Computing, or a degree which has a large element of Open Source ?


    Fortunately, there are a number of excellent programs that focus on
    the fundamentals of computing. Usually, these programs are BSEE
    degrees rather than Computer Science degrees. There are several
    excellent schools such as UC Berkely, Carnagie-Mellon, Stamford,
    Massechusetts Institute of Technology, and hundreds of others that
    have excellent programs which focus on the fundamentals of computer
    ENGINEERING.

    Even in a computer science degree, the goal shouldn't be to train you
    in how to play "video games" with a particular GUI interface, it
    should be to teach you the fundamental principles of the computer. If
    you understand the Algebra, than any programming language will come
    easily. If you understand the Calculus and Physics of hard drive
    rotation, gate propagation, and latency, you will better understand
    how and when to use different system constructs. If you understand
    Statustics, you can improve your ability to crunch complex data into
    relevant solutions in the shortest possible time.

    If you understand the design of a queue, a pipe, and a semaphore, you
    can more easily grasp the concepts of operating system optimizations,
    schedulers, and memory mapping. You can understand WHY Linux is
    better at certain things, and WHY Microsoft can create benchmarks that
    make it look better at certain things.

    Especially in the early stages of your career, you will probably be
    much more focused on how to help the user enter information into a
    form, and how to convert that information into a format or class
    object that can easily be manipulated by other library functions or
    business logic. You will go on to learning how to distill and
    organize the information so that it can be stored as efficiently as
    possible in the shortest possible time. You will also learn
    networking at a higher level, and eventually begin looking at the
    protocols and how to convert a particular object into a form that can
    be passed across a network to other servers to improve load balancing
    and performance.

    You will also need to understand law, especially contract law,
    copyright law, and patent law, because you will be using other
    people's intellectual property as part of your solutions and you will
    be integrating with other parts of your own organizations as well as
    other companies. Many modern B2B solutions are actually software
    implementations of legislation and contracts.

    You will also need to learn how to plan, schedual, and organize a
    project so that other people on the team can contribute to the
    solution. You don't want people sitting around idly (and getting paid
    for waiting), and you don't want to have people working 20 hour days
    and then making serious mistakes. If you use Microsoft project to
    help you learn how to plan, you will quickly find out how easily it is
    to fall into BOTH of these pitfals. I've known project managers who
    used Index cards and string to make sure that they had a workable
    project plan, and they got better resource balancing than some of the
    best scheduling tools.

    You need to understand general business concepts like accounting and
    economics. Knowing how your efforts impact someones' "bottom line",
    as well as how to properly and legally calculate that bottom line
    using a database and algorythms to generate reliable and accurate
    financial reports - any time they are needed is MUCH more important
    than whether you did it on Base/MySQL or SQL Server. As the folks at
    Anderson or PWC can tell you, getting it RIGHT is MUCH more important
    that which software you use. Enron had some of the best software on
    the market, but executive decisions were made to put certain
    transactions into the wrong columns. Some of those decisions were
    deliberate, others may have been misunderstandings of accounting
    principles.

    It really doesn't matter whether you learn by using all OSS, All
    Windows, or some combination of the two. There are some things you
    probably MUST learn by studying OSS. For example, most CS students
    learn Operating System theory by studying Minix, BSD, and/or Linux
    kernels. Minix is better as an elementary teaching tool. Linux is an
    interesting study in how all of those concepts of physics,
    electronics, gate theory, and statistics can be combined into an
    extraordinary piece of software.

    > If I make my choice, what Open Source type modules should you think I
    > should be looking for. Obviously operating systems (linux, of
    > course), but what else ?


    If the courses have titles like "Word 101" or "Intro to Office" and
    these are prerequisites, find a different school. If you haven't
    achieved at least some degree of competency on these applications
    before starting college, you probably shouldn't be in college. If
    these are the only applications you know, or the school only teaches
    Microsoft, then you probably shouldn't be in college.

    Courses in Java, C++, and SQL are all good, but you still need
    Calculus, Statistics, solid state theory (gates and their
    combinations), accounting, and law - preferably in the first 2 years.
    You also want a course in technical writing. If the teacher only
    accepts documents generated by Microsoft word, you probably want to
    look elsewhere.

    What you are looking for is the fundamentals, not the rigid compliance
    with a particular company's dogma. There are MIS students whose
    training was focused on programming in COBOL, use of DOS/VS, and JCL.
    How practical are those skills today? Fortunately, they also took
    courses in database theory, algorythms, and technical writing, so many
    of them had long careers that lasted 20, 30, even 40 years, and went
    on to be teachers.

    > I live in the UK, and want to study here - does anyone know of a
    > suitable course in the UK ? However, suggestions as to what modules I
    > should take are welcome from anywhere.


    I don't know enough about UK schools to reccomend specific schools,
    but I would reccomend any schools which set a "goal" such as "At the
    end of this program you will be able to pass the xyz certification
    exam". That might be a legitimate goal for the midterm exam of a
    reputable school, and even then, if you have focused on the
    fundemantals rather than a particular company's implementation quirks,
    you probably wouldn't pass. You do need to know how an IP mask
    interacts with an IP address, but there might be questions such as
    which tabs and windows you have to access to set the IP address and
    mask on Windows NT 4.0, and which ones you would used on Red Hat Linux
    version 4.2, you will probably miss those questions, and it will
    probably be different for XP, Vista, and RHEL 5.
    You probably should be able to answer a question on how to set the IP
    address and mask using ifconfig that has barely changed at all in 20
    years, and you are very likely to need to write scripts that configure
    servers as they are being booted.

    > Your suggestions and guidance would be appreciated.


    Make sure that the school focuses on the fundamentals. When
    Interviewing, as if you will be allowed to submit your papers in ODF
    format. Many schools would be impressed by your initiative, your
    understanding of emerging standards, and your willingness to engage in
    self-directed learning. You would be the kind of student they want.

    However, don't be beligerant about it. For example, don't say "I
    don't want to use Microsoft products, I want to ONLY use FOSS software
    for all of my assignments". This would show a rebellious atitude and
    a tendency to rejoct standards and policies set by the college or
    future employers. This is not their ideal alumni.

    Avoid "Religeous fanaticism" in either direction. You don't want to
    be Rabidly pro-Microsoft, and you don't want to be rabidly anti-
    Microsoft. Be as rabid as you want in the usenet newsgroups, but in
    your collegiate and professional activities, you need to be sensitive
    to the needs, values, and concerns of others. A good course in
    sociology or psychology or theater can be very useful as well.


    > Finbarr




  7. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?


    >
    > I was surprised to see from other postings that there are clearly some
    > strong advocates of Microsoft in this Group.


    There are several of them who post regularly, but one or two of them
    use a million different aliases so they seem like more. Their main
    pupose seems to be to disrupt this newsgroup, and they put a huge
    effort into it, so you wonder what they're getting out of it (like
    who's paying their bills). Hadron hasn't been around much lately, but
    he has a nasty style that you will see if you read many of his
    posts.


  8. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?


    "Finbarr" wrote in message
    news:1193763189.543765.8350@50g2000hsm.googlegroup s.com...
    > On Oct 30, 4:08 pm, Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    >> On Oct 30, 9:44 am, "finbarr2...@googlemail.com"
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> wrote:
    >> > Next year I would like to go to University to do a BSc Computer
    >> > Science.

    >>
    >> > However, I think my job prospects on leaving University would be
    >> > greatly enhanced if I had studied Open Source computing. A lot of
    >> > companies seem to be using it, but Universities insist on turning out
    >> > graduates who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.

    >>
    >> > Does anyone know of a university with a degree in Open Source
    >> > Computing, or a degree which has a large element of Open Source ?

    >>
    >> > If I make my choice, what Open Source type modules should you think I
    >> > should be looking for. Obviously operating systems (linux, of
    >> > course), but what else ?

    >>
    >> > I live in the UK, and want to study here - does anyone know of a
    >> > suitable course in the UK ? However, suggestions as to what modules I
    >> > should take are welcome from anywhere.

    >>
    >> > Your suggestions and guidance would be appreciated.

    >>
    >> > Finbarr

    >>
    >> In the USA (and in a South American country I am familiar with), the
    >> academic situation is very clear. You have respected universities and
    >> colleges, and then you have community colleges and others which seem
    >> to be branches of the Disney Corporation.
    >>
    >> As a rule of thumb, the higher the academic rigor, intellectual level
    >> and research standing, the less teaching of Windows and related
    >> "knowledge" you will see on the institution. In every single one of
    >> the best universities, the teaching is firmly based on Unix and open
    >> source. In fact, a substantial fraction of OSS is produced precisely
    >> by those schools. The community colleges OTH, crank out graduates
    >> whose skills are pretty much limited at Visual Basic, Excel and SQL
    >> server.
    >>
    >> In every single one of the best USA universities, there is a
    >> widespread presence Unix and OSS:
    >>
    >> - MIT (birthplace of OSS)
    >> - Caltech (founded by former MITers not too happy with the Boston
    >> weather)
    >> - Stanford (they brought us Google)
    >> - Berkeley (need I say more?)
    >> - Carnegie Mellon
    >> - Georgia Tech
    >> - Yale U.
    >> - Columbia (of Kermit fame)
    >> - Washington University (WU ftp)
    >>
    >> We could get into the corporate area, where the general rule applies
    >> as well: the most respected and successful companies will have a
    >> higher use of Unix and/or OSS. Let's just compare the Bank of America
    >> with some inconsequential little bank, not to mention Fedex, NYSE,
    >> etc.
    >>
    >> Additionally, there are other fertile grounds where OSS is being
    >> nurtured, such as NASA.
    >>
    >> -Ramon

    >
    > So are you saying there appears to be a distinction between academic
    > (Universities - underpinning knowledge and platform independent) and
    > vocational ( Colleges - all things Microsoft) ?
    >
    > I was surprised to see from other postings that there are clearly some
    > strong advocates of Microsoft in this Group.
    >
    >
    > Finbarr
    >


    If you're going to a "technical school" like 'Tyler Tech' to study
    "television repair" or "printer maitenance" then OSS software is what you'll
    be using.

    http://media.www.thetowerlight.com/m...-3045983.shtml
    "Tyler Tech: Open-source a software alternative"


    But if you'll be attending an elite Ivy League university then they all use
    and recommend Windows for their students to prepare them for the real world.




    MIT - Check!

    http://itinfo.mit.edu/product.php?vid=642

    All MIT students are entitled to obtain one copy of Windows XP Professional
    for use on a personally owned computer via the Microsoft Campus Agreement
    (MSCA). See the MSCA web pages for further details.


    Stanford - Check!

    http://windows.stanford.edu/Public/I...AdminGuide.htm

    Infrastructure Overview
    The Stanford Windows Infrastructure is built on Microsoft's Active Directory
    and the Windows Server 2003 operating system.


    Harvard - Check!

    http://www.fas.harvard.edu/computing/kb/kb0129.html

    For the 2007-08 academic year, the system requirements are:
    Windows (PC):
    Recommended minimum for new purchases: Intel Core Duo Processor, 1 GB RAM,
    60 GB hard disk, Windows XP or Vista.
    (No support is offered for Linux, other versions of Unix, or operating
    systems earlier than Windows 2000 or Macintosh 8.6.)


    Princeton - Check!

    http://helpdesk.princeton.edu/kb/display.plx?id=9874

    Princeton University
    Office of Information Technology

    If you are a current or incoming student and purchase your new Windows
    computer through the University, all new SCI 2007-08 computers will be
    delivered to you with Vista Ultimate installed.






    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  9. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Oct 30, 1:30 pm, "Keith Windsor" wrote:
    > "Finbarr" wrote in message
    >
    > news:1193763189.543765.8350@50g2000hsm.googlegroup s.com...
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Oct 30, 4:08 pm, Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    > >> On Oct 30, 9:44 am, "finbarr2...@googlemail.com"

    >
    > >> wrote:
    > >> > Next year I would like to go to University to do a BSc Computer
    > >> > Science.

    >
    > >> > However, I think my job prospects on leaving University would be
    > >> > greatly enhanced if I had studied Open Source computing. A lot of
    > >> > companies seem to be using it, but Universities insist on turning out
    > >> > graduates who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.

    >
    > >> > Does anyone know of a university with a degree in Open Source
    > >> > Computing, or a degree which has a large element of Open Source ?

    >
    > >> > If I make my choice, what Open Source type modules should you think I
    > >> > should be looking for. Obviously operating systems (linux, of
    > >> > course), but what else ?

    >
    > >> > I live in the UK, and want to study here - does anyone know of a
    > >> > suitable course in the UK ? However, suggestions as to what modules I
    > >> > should take are welcome from anywhere.

    >
    > >> > Your suggestions and guidance would be appreciated.

    >
    > >> > Finbarr

    >
    > >> In the USA (and in a South American country I am familiar with), the
    > >> academic situation is very clear. You have respected universities and
    > >> colleges, and then you have community colleges and others which seem
    > >> to be branches of the Disney Corporation.

    >
    > >> As a rule of thumb, the higher the academic rigor, intellectual level
    > >> and research standing, the less teaching of Windows and related
    > >> "knowledge" you will see on the institution. In every single one of
    > >> the best universities, the teaching is firmly based on Unix and open
    > >> source. In fact, a substantial fraction of OSS is produced precisely
    > >> by those schools. The community colleges OTH, crank out graduates
    > >> whose skills are pretty much limited at Visual Basic, Excel and SQL
    > >> server.

    >
    > >> In every single one of the best USA universities, there is a
    > >> widespread presence Unix and OSS:

    >
    > >> - MIT (birthplace of OSS)
    > >> - Caltech (founded by former MITers not too happy with the Boston
    > >> weather)
    > >> - Stanford (they brought us Google)
    > >> - Berkeley (need I say more?)
    > >> - Carnegie Mellon
    > >> - Georgia Tech
    > >> - Yale U.
    > >> - Columbia (of Kermit fame)
    > >> - Washington University (WU ftp)

    >
    > >> We could get into the corporate area, where the general rule applies
    > >> as well: the most respected and successful companies will have a
    > >> higher use of Unix and/or OSS. Let's just compare the Bank of America
    > >> with some inconsequential little bank, not to mention Fedex, NYSE,
    > >> etc.

    >
    > >> Additionally, there are other fertile grounds where OSS is being
    > >> nurtured, such as NASA.

    >
    > >> -Ramon

    >
    > > So are you saying there appears to be a distinction between academic
    > > (Universities - underpinning knowledge and platform independent) and
    > > vocational ( Colleges - all things Microsoft) ?

    >
    > > I was surprised to see from other postings that there are clearly some
    > > strong advocates of Microsoft in this Group.

    >
    > > Finbarr

    >
    > If you're going to a "technical school" like 'Tyler Tech' to study
    > "television repair" or "printer maitenance" then OSS software is what you'll
    > be using.
    >
    > http://media.www.thetowerlight.com/m...57/news/2007/1...
    > "Tyler Tech: Open-source a software alternative"
    >
    > But if you'll be attending an elite Ivy League university then they all use
    > and recommend Windows for their students to prepare them for the real world.
    >
    > MIT - Check!
    >
    > http://itinfo.mit.edu/product.php?vid=642
    >
    > All MIT students are entitled to obtain one copy of Windows XP Professional
    > for use on a personally owned computer via the Microsoft Campus Agreement
    > (MSCA). See the MSCA web pages for further details.
    >
    > Stanford - Check!
    >
    > http://windows.stanford.edu/Public/I...AdminGuide.htm
    >
    > Infrastructure Overview
    > The Stanford Windows Infrastructure is built on Microsoft's Active Directory
    > and the Windows Server 2003 operating system.
    >
    > Harvard - Check!
    >
    > http://www.fas.harvard.edu/computing/kb/kb0129.html
    >
    > For the 2007-08 academic year, the system requirements are:
    > Windows (PC):
    > Recommended minimum for new purchases: Intel Core Duo Processor, 1 GB RAM,
    > 60 GB hard disk, Windows XP or Vista.
    > (No support is offered for Linux, other versions of Unix, or operating
    > systems earlier than Windows 2000 or Macintosh 8.6.)
    >
    > Princeton - Check!
    >
    > http://helpdesk.princeton.edu/kb/display.plx?id=9874
    >
    > Princeton University
    > Office of Information Technology
    >
    > If you are a current or incoming student and purchase your new Windows
    > computer through the University, all new SCI 2007-08 computers will be
    > delivered to you with Vista Ultimate installed.
    >
    > --
    > Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com



    Keith:

    Could you possibly be more idiot? Windows has some 95% of market share
    on the desktop, would you expect universities to be an exception?

    Perhaps you could understand the situation with a simple example. NASA
    engineers have to take an old fashioned, low tech public
    transportation vehicle on their way to work, to design a Mars probe,
    which most certainly doesn't have a bit of Microsoft software in it.

    -Ramon



  10. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    In article <1193751891.492608.172280@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.c om>,
    "finbarr2008@googlemail.com" wrote:
    > Next year I would like to go to University to do a BSc Computer
    > Science.
    >
    > However, I think my job prospects on leaving University would be
    > greatly enhanced if I had studied Open Source computing. A lot of
    > companies seem to be using it, but Universities insist on turning out
    > graduates who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.
    >
    > Does anyone know of a university with a degree in Open Source
    > Computing, or a degree which has a large element of Open Source ?
    >
    > If I make my choice, what Open Source type modules should you think I
    > should be looking for. Obviously operating systems (linux, of
    > course), but what else ?
    >
    > I live in the UK, and want to study here - does anyone know of a
    > suitable course in the UK ? However, suggestions as to what modules I
    > should take are welcome from anywhere.
    >
    > Your suggestions and guidance would be appreciated.


    I would suggest you learn what computer science is. All your questions
    have nothing to do with computer science. To put it in non-CS terms,
    you are like a student preparing to study mechanical engineering asking
    if he should get a car with a manual transmission or an automatic
    transmission. That's an interesting question, but has nothing to do
    with getting a mechanical engineering degree.

  11. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    In article <1193760524.235895.109160@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups. com>,
    Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    > In the USA (and in a South American country I am familiar with), the
    > academic situation is very clear. You have respected universities and
    > colleges, and then you have community colleges and others which seem
    > to be branches of the Disney Corporation.
    >
    > As a rule of thumb, the higher the academic rigor, intellectual level
    > and research standing, the less teaching of Windows and related
    > "knowledge" you will see on the institution. In every single one of
    > the best universities, the teaching is firmly based on Unix and open
    > source. In fact, a substantial fraction of OSS is produced precisely
    > by those schools. The community colleges OTH, crank out graduates
    > whose skills are pretty much limited at Visual Basic, Excel and SQL
    > server.
    >
    > In every single one of the best USA universities, there is a
    > widespread presence Unix and OSS:
    >
    > - MIT (birthplace of OSS)
    > - Caltech (founded by former MITers not too happy with the Boston
    > weather)


    You've never actually been within 50 miles of a top university, have
    you? Windows, of course, is all through them, as is Unix and Mac.

    And where did you get that interesting bit of Caltech history? You
    should write to them and let them know, so they can correct their
    publications, which have omitted their MIT origins. Caltech was founded
    in 1891 by a local Pasadena businessman, as a vocational school. The
    only early MIT connection seems to be when the George Hale joined the
    board of directors in 1907, and played a major role in transforming the
    school into a major scientific research institution. He did convince
    other prominent scientists to come to Pasadena, but most of them were
    not from MIT. They were from top universities all over the world.

  12. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On 30 Oct, 18:18, Tim Smith wrote:
    > In article <1193751891.492608.172...@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.c om>,
    >
    >
    >
    > "finbarr2...@googlemail.com" wrote:
    > > Next year I would like to go to University to do a BSc Computer
    > > Science.

    >
    > > However, I think my job prospects on leaving University would be
    > > greatly enhanced if I had studied Open Source computing. A lot of
    > > companies seem to be using it, but Universities insist on turning out
    > > graduates who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.

    >
    > > Does anyone know of a university with a degree in Open Source
    > > Computing, or a degree which has a large element of Open Source ?

    >
    > > If I make my choice, what Open Source type modules should you think I
    > > should be looking for. Obviously operating systems (linux, of
    > > course), but what else ?

    >
    > > I live in the UK, and want to study here - does anyone know of a
    > > suitable course in the UK ? However, suggestions as to what modules I
    > > should take are welcome from anywhere.

    >
    > > Your suggestions and guidance would be appreciated.

    >
    > I would suggest you learn what computer science is. All your questions
    > have nothing to do with computer science. To put it in non-CS terms,
    > you are like a student preparing to study mechanical engineering asking
    > if he should get a car with a manual transmission or an automatic
    > transmission. That's an interesting question, but has nothing to do
    > with getting a mechanical engineering degree.


    A big thank you to both Rex and Ramon for their lengthy, and
    informative, replies. With regard to Tim's reply that I should learn
    what computer science is, that is exactly what I am in the process of
    doing. I am only 16yrs old and clearly do not know as much as you
    guys, which is why I am seeking a range of advice before choosing the
    right course for me.

    Again, a genuine thank you to all those who have contributed, You
    have given me food for thought.


    Finbarr


  13. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Oct 30, 2:29 pm, Tim Smith wrote:
    > In article <1193760524.235895.109...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups. com>,
    > Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > In the USA (and in a South American country I am familiar with), the
    > > academic situation is very clear. You have respected universities and
    > > colleges, and then you have community colleges and others which seem
    > > to be branches of the Disney Corporation.

    >
    > > As a rule of thumb, the higher the academic rigor, intellectual level
    > > and research standing, the less teaching of Windows and related
    > > "knowledge" you will see on the institution. In every single one of
    > > the best universities, the teaching is firmly based on Unix and open
    > > source. In fact, a substantial fraction of OSS is produced precisely
    > > by those schools. The community colleges OTH, crank out graduates
    > > whose skills are pretty much limited at Visual Basic, Excel and SQL
    > > server.

    >
    > > In every single one of the best USA universities, there is a
    > > widespread presence Unix and OSS:

    >
    > > - MIT (birthplace of OSS)
    > > - Caltech (founded by former MITers not too happy with the Boston
    > > weather)

    >
    > You've never actually been within 50 miles of a top university, have
    > you? Windows, of course, is all through them, as is Unix and Mac.
    >
    > And where did you get that interesting bit of Caltech history? You
    > should write to them and let them know, so they can correct their
    > publications, which have omitted their MIT origins. Caltech was founded
    > in 1891 by a local Pasadena businessman, as a vocational school. The
    > only early MIT connection seems to be when the George Hale joined the
    > board of directors in 1907, and played a major role in transforming the
    > school into a major scientific research institution. He did convince
    > other prominent scientists to come to Pasadena, but most of them were
    > not from MIT. They were from top universities all over the world.



    You shouldn't have stopped at Wikipedia, Tim. Just go to the "History
    of Caltech":

    http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/p...cles/goodstein

    and search for "MIT".

    -Ramon



  14. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 06:44:51 -0700, finbarr2008@googlemail.com wrote:

    > Next year I would like to go to University to do a BSc Computer Science.


    Bad choice.


    > However, I think my job prospects on leaving University would be greatly
    > enhanced if I had studied Open Source computing. A lot of companies
    > seem to be using it, but Universities insist on turning out graduates
    > who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.


    Not in my experience and that is with 3 kids in/going to college.
    One going to law school next year.

    > Does anyone know of a university with a degree in Open Source Computing,
    > or a degree which has a large element of Open Source ?


    Linux courses are offered all over the place.
    Maybe you are looking in the wrong schools?
    A "degree" in "open source" is like a "degree" in "Windows".
    No such thing.


    > If I make my choice, what Open Source type modules should you think I
    > should be looking for. Obviously operating systems (linux, of course),
    > but what else ?


    Do you like the weather in India?
    Pakistan?
    Bangalore?


    That's where the jobs are and that is where companies are looking for
    cheap help.
    It has nothing to do with Linux vs Microsoft BTW.

    Find a career where you actually have to TOUCH SOMETHING.
    IOW, a career that can't be outsourced to 3rd world nations.

    Better yet, go into business for yourself.

    > I live in the UK, and want to study here - does anyone know of a
    > suitable course in the UK ? However, suggestions as to what modules I
    > should take are welcome from anywhere.


    Ask Roy Schestowitz.
    He's a professional student and may be able to guide you.

    > Your suggestions and guidance would be appreciated.
    >
    > Finbarr


    Bottom line..........

    Do something that requires physical contact.
    I'm not kidding here.

    In USA even Xray/MRI reading is being outsourced to India.
    Yep....

    A network tech with full Cisco certs can easily earn well into the 6
    figures.
    Why?

    They haven't figured out how to outsource a screwdriver to India yet.

    Think about it.....

    As for Linux, personally I think you are wise to expand your horizons.
    Getting in on the ground floor will almost guarantee you will rise up as
    Linux's popularity (servers) increases, and it will.

    BTW this goes for engineering as well.

    Personally, if I would tell you to start your own business as a plumber,
    electrician, carpenter etc.
    You'll make a fortune.
    Better yet, get involved in the healthcare field because the baby boomer
    population is aging, rapidly, and there will not be enough people around
    to care for them.


    --
    flatfish+++

    "Why do they call it a flatfish?"
    "Is this the year of Linux?"
    "Linux is free only when your time has no value"

  15. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:54:54 -0400, DFS wrote:

    > finbarr2008@googlemail.com wrote:
    >
    >
    >> However, I think my job prospects on leaving University would be
    >> greatly enhanced if I had studied Open Source computing.

    >
    > It's sort of like regular computing, except the software sucks, the pay
    > is bad, the hardware is old, and the beard is scraggly.
    >
    >
    >> A lot of
    >> companies seem to be using it, but Universities insist on turning out
    >> graduates who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.

    >
    > Those are the graduates who understand how the world works.
    >
    >
    >> Does anyone know of a university with a degree in Open Source
    >> Computing, or a degree which has a large element of Open Source ?

    >
    > After a fashion: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm
    >
    >
    >
    >> If I make my choice, what Open Source type modules should you think I
    >> should be looking for. *Obviously operating systems (linux, of course),
    >> but what else ?

    >
    > Any of these subjects will give you a headstart in the OSS world:
    >
    > Freeloading For Life
    > Designing Clones Of MS Office
    > Borrowing Ideas From Microsoft
    > Whining About Windows
    > Lying About Microsoft
    > Windows By Day, Linux By Night


    In COLA yes.
    Not really in the real world though, at least not typically.
    Most of the people I know work both sides of the fence and fully
    acknowledge the pluses and minuses of both OS's.

    > The local cola "advocates" are PhDs in these fields, so you're in the
    > right place.


    True.

    --
    flatfish+++

    "Why do they call it a flatfish?"
    "Is this the year of Linux?"
    "Linux is free only when your time has no value"

  16. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    Hadron did eloquently scribble:
    >> You forgot java, unless that fad has passed now. It was just introduced as
    >> the main computer language for the first year when I was in the second, but
    >> then, this was 11 years ago.
    >>
    >> Before then we did modula-2.
    >> You also forgot SML, occam and prolog, which feature quite greatly in some
    >> courses (different programming approaches, AI/expert systems, parallel
    >> processing, etc)


    > None of which have any practical usage in an Open Source
    > environment. The languages I listed are the ones most commonly used (I
    > did forget JS and Java to be honest) in a GNU/Linux environment.


    Prolog has no practical use in an open source environment?
    How so?
    SML has no practical use in an open source environment?
    How so?
    Occam has no practical use in an open source environment?
    How so?

    --
    __________________________________________________ ____________________________
    | spike1@freenet.co.uk | |
    |Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
    | in | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
    | Computer Science | - Father Jack in "Father Ted" |
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  17. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:53:09 +0000, Finbarr wrote:

    > On Oct 30, 4:08 pm, Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    >> On Oct 30, 9:44 am, "finbarr2...@googlemail.com"
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> wrote:
    >> > Next year I would like to go to University to do a BSc Computer
    >> > Science.

    >>
    >> > However, I think my job prospects on leaving University would be
    >> > greatly enhanced if I had studied Open Source computing. A lot of
    >> > companies seem to be using it, but Universities insist on turning out
    >> > graduates who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.

    >>
    >> > Does anyone know of a university with a degree in Open Source
    >> > Computing, or a degree which has a large element of Open Source ?

    >>
    >> > If I make my choice, what Open Source type modules should you think I
    >> > should be looking for. Obviously operating systems (linux, of
    >> > course), but what else ?

    >>
    >> > I live in the UK, and want to study here - does anyone know of a
    >> > suitable course in the UK ? However, suggestions as to what modules
    >> > I should take are welcome from anywhere.

    >>
    >> > Your suggestions and guidance would be appreciated.

    >>
    >> > Finbarr

    >>
    >> In the USA (and in a South American country I am familiar with), the
    >> academic situation is very clear. You have respected universities and
    >> colleges, and then you have community colleges and others which seem to
    >> be branches of the Disney Corporation.
    >>
    >> As a rule of thumb, the higher the academic rigor, intellectual level
    >> and research standing, the less teaching of Windows and related
    >> "knowledge" you will see on the institution. In every single one of the
    >> best universities, the teaching is firmly based on Unix and open
    >> source. In fact, a substantial fraction of OSS is produced precisely by
    >> those schools. The community colleges OTH, crank out graduates whose
    >> skills are pretty much limited at Visual Basic, Excel and SQL server.
    >>
    >> In every single one of the best USA universities, there is a widespread
    >> presence Unix and OSS:
    >>
    >> - MIT (birthplace of OSS)
    >> - Caltech (founded by former MITers not too happy with the Boston
    >> weather)
    >> - Stanford (they brought us Google)
    >> - Berkeley (need I say more?)
    >> - Carnegie Mellon
    >> - Georgia Tech
    >> - Yale U.
    >> - Columbia (of Kermit fame)
    >> - Washington University (WU ftp)
    >>
    >> We could get into the corporate area, where the general rule applies as
    >> well: the most respected and successful companies will have a higher
    >> use of Unix and/or OSS. Let's just compare the Bank of America with
    >> some inconsequential little bank, not to mention Fedex, NYSE, etc.
    >>
    >> Additionally, there are other fertile grounds where OSS is being
    >> nurtured, such as NASA.
    >>
    >> -Ramon

    >
    > So are you saying there appears to be a distinction between academic
    > (Universities - underpinning knowledge and platform independent) and
    > vocational ( Colleges - all things Microsoft) ?
    >
    > I was surprised to see from other postings that there are clearly some
    > strong advocates of Microsoft in this Group.
    >
    >
    > Finbarr


    Of course.

    Take a look at the school a highly prolific poster in this group attends
    and then ask yourself, if this school's program were so demanding, how
    would he have the time to spend in this and 20 other Linux forums?

    Maybe things have changed and maybe I'm not as bright as this person is,
    but when I was in college I barely had time to eat let alone the time to
    post 2000 messages or more to comp.os.linux.advocacy each month.

    How many MIT students do you see doing the same thing?
    Do you think Harvard Law students are spening all their time on groklaw?
    Doubtful.

    However students at less demanding colleges may have the time to do such.

    --
    flatfish+++

    "Why do they call it a flatfish?"
    "Is this the year of Linux?"
    "Linux is free only when your time has no value"

  18. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    The "true linux advocate", "kernel hacker", "emacs user", "swapfile
    expert", "X specialist", "CUPS guru", "USB-disk server admin", "newsreader
    magician", "hardware maven" and "time coordinator" Hadron Quark, aka Hans
    Schneider, aka Damian O'Leary wrote:

    > spike1@freenet.co.uk writes:
    >
    >> Hadron did eloquently scribble:
    >>> As far as practical "courses" for the languages and tools of interest
    >>> keep an eye out for

    >>
    >>> C/C++
    >>> GDB
    >>> Eclipse
    >>> Perl
    >>> PHP
    >>> Python
    >>> Apache/Tomcat
    >>> Mysql/RDBMS

    >>
    >> You forgot java, unless that fad has passed now. It was just introduced
    >> as the main computer language for the first year when I was in the
    >> second, but then, this was 11 years ago.
    >>
    >> Before then we did modula-2.
    >> You also forgot SML, occam and prolog, which feature quite greatly in
    >> some courses (different programming approaches, AI/expert systems,
    >> parallel processing, etc)

    >
    > None of which have any practical usage in an Open Source
    > environment.


    Lets see:

    Modula-2: Supplied on SuSE by default
    SML: Supplied on SuSE by default
    Occam: released for linux in 1999
    Prolog: Supplied on SuSE by default

    All of those are also on the Debian disks

    Yes, that certainly reeks of "no practical usage"

    When will you start to get your very first clue about linux, Hadron Quark?

    < snip more Hadron idiocy >
    --
    Windows: Because everyone needs a good laugh!


  19. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    finbarr2008@googlemail.com wrote:
    > Next year I would like to go to University to do a BSc Computer
    > Science.
    >
    > However, I think my job prospects on leaving University would be
    > greatly enhanced if I had studied Open Source computing. A lot of
    > companies seem to be using it, but Universities insist on turning out
    > graduates who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.
    >
    > Does anyone know of a university with a degree in Open Source
    > Computing, or a degree which has a large element of Open Source ?
    >
    > If I make my choice, what Open Source type modules should you think I
    > should be looking for. Obviously operating systems (linux, of
    > course), but what else ?
    >
    > I live in the UK, and want to study here - does anyone know of a
    > suitable course in the UK ? However, suggestions as to what modules I
    > should take are welcome from anywhere.
    >
    > Your suggestions and guidance would be appreciated.
    >
    > Finbarr
    >

    Take a look at UMIST. They produce an Electrical Engineering program
    that I have used on MS XP (not my choice!). I am fairly sure that it was
    originally written for Linux.




  20. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:16:13 +0000, [H]omer wrote:

    >
    > IME Universities (in the UK at least) do not teach "Microsoft", they
    > teach the fundamentals of what you need to become a Software Engineer.



    Judging by the top poster in this group, they teach spamming 101.
    Judging by your contributions they teach knee pads 102.

    --
    flatfish+++

    "Why do they call it a flatfish?"
    "Is this the year of Linux?"
    "Linux is free only when your time has no value"

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