How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ? - Linux

This is a discussion on How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ? - Linux ; On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:16:13 +0000, [H]omer wrote: > As for job prospects related to Linux training, well just look at the > current job market and see for yourself, it's a 50/50 split between > database and administrators, ...

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Thread: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

  1. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:16:13 +0000, [H]omer wrote:

    > As for job prospects related to Linux training, well just look at the
    > current job market and see for yourself, it's a 50/50 split between
    > database and administrators, and most of it seems to be *nix related, or
    > at least in heterogeneous environments, and those with *nix experience
    > are a highly sought-after commodity, so you'll have /no/ problem
    > securing employment. Indeed, various studies over the last few years
    > indicates a massive IT staff shortage in the UK (and presumably
    > elsewhere too), so you'll end up having your pick of positions.


    Don't you think it's a bit.. umm.. over the top to get a degree in CS, only
    to become a system administrator or dba? Talk about wasting your
    education.

    That's not to say that SA's and DBA's don't need education, but they don't
    the CS Degrees.

  2. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Erik Funkenbusch belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:16:13 +0000, [H]omer wrote:
    >
    >> As for job prospects related to Linux training, well just look at the
    >> current job market and see for yourself, it's a 50/50 split between
    >> database and administrators, and most of it seems to be *nix related, or
    >> at least in heterogeneous environments, and those with *nix experience
    >> are a highly sought-after commodity, so you'll have /no/ problem
    >> securing employment. Indeed, various studies over the last few years
    >> indicates a massive IT staff shortage in the UK (and presumably
    >> elsewhere too), so you'll end up having your pick of positions.

    >
    > Don't you think it's a bit.. umm.. over the top to get a degree in CS, only
    > to become a system administrator or dba? Talk about wasting your
    > education.
    >
    > That's not to say that SA's and DBA's don't need education, but they don't
    > the CS Degrees.


    Would an MCSE suffice?

    --
    Tux rox!

  3. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:

    >
    >>
    >> I was surprised to see from other postings that there are clearly some
    >> strong advocates of Microsoft in this Group.

    >
    > There are several of them who post regularly, but one or two of them
    > use a million different aliases so they seem like more. Their main
    > pupose seems to be to disrupt this newsgroup, and they put a huge
    > effort into it, so you wonder what they're getting out of it (like
    > who's paying their bills). Hadron hasn't been around much lately, but
    > he has a nasty style that you will see if you read many of his
    > posts.


    He's in alt.os.linux.ubuntu ATM, trying to play all innocent.

    --
    Operating systems: FreeBSD 6.2, PC-BSD 1.4,
    Testing: FreeBSD 7.0-BETA1.5
    Linux systems: Debian 4.0, PCLinuxOS 2007,
    Kubuntu 7.10 "Gutsy"

  4. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Linonut

    wrote
    on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:55:07 GMT
    :
    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Erik Funkenbusch belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:16:13 +0000, [H]omer wrote:
    >>
    >>> As for job prospects related to Linux training, well just look at the
    >>> current job market and see for yourself, it's a 50/50 split between
    >>> database and administrators, and most of it seems to be *nix related, or
    >>> at least in heterogeneous environments, and those with *nix experience
    >>> are a highly sought-after commodity, so you'll have /no/ problem
    >>> securing employment. Indeed, various studies over the last few years
    >>> indicates a massive IT staff shortage in the UK (and presumably
    >>> elsewhere too), so you'll end up having your pick of positions.

    >>
    >> Don't you think it's a bit.. umm.. over the top to get a degree in CS, only
    >> to become a system administrator or dba? Talk about wasting your
    >> education.
    >>
    >> That's not to say that SA's and DBA's don't need education, but they don't
    >> the CS Degrees.

    >
    > Would an MCSE suffice?
    >


    No, one Must Consider Something Else.

    :-)

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #1123133:
    void f(FILE * fptr, char *p) { fgets(p, sizeof(p), fptr); }

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  5. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    William Poaster wrote:

    > nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>>
    >>> I was surprised to see from other postings that there are clearly some
    >>> strong advocates of Microsoft in this Group.

    >>
    >> There are several of them who post regularly, but one or two of them
    >> use a million different aliases so they seem like more. Their main
    >> pupose seems to be to disrupt this newsgroup, and they put a huge
    >> effort into it, so you wonder what they're getting out of it (like
    >> who's paying their bills). Hadron hasn't been around much lately, but
    >> he has a nasty style that you will see if you read many of his
    >> posts.

    >
    > He's in alt.os.linux.ubuntu ATM, trying to play all innocent.
    >


    And getting the flak from all corners by now

    His MS astroturfing was a bit too obvious
    --
    Hardware, n.:
    The parts of a computer system that can be kicked.


  6. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    Peter Köhlmann wrote:

    > William Poaster wrote:
    >
    >> nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>> I was surprised to see from other postings that there are clearly some
    >>>> strong advocates of Microsoft in this Group.
    >>>
    >>> There are several of them who post regularly, but one or two of them
    >>> use a million different aliases so they seem like more. Their main
    >>> pupose seems to be to disrupt this newsgroup, and they put a huge
    >>> effort into it, so you wonder what they're getting out of it (like
    >>> who's paying their bills). Hadron hasn't been around much lately, but
    >>> he has a nasty style that you will see if you read many of his
    >>> posts.

    >>
    >> He's in alt.os.linux.ubuntu ATM, trying to play all innocent.
    >>

    >
    > And getting the flak from all corners by now
    >
    > His MS astroturfing was a bit too obvious


    Yes, quite a few have noticed that.

    --
    Operating systems: FreeBSD 6.2, PC-BSD 1.4,
    Testing: FreeBSD 7.0-BETA1.5
    Linux systems: Debian 4.0, PCLinuxOS 2007,
    Kubuntu 7.10 "Gutsy"

  7. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 00:03:14 +0000, William Poaster wrote:

    > Peter Köhlmann wrote:
    >
    >> William Poaster wrote:
    >>
    >>> nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> I was surprised to see from other postings that there are clearly
    >>>>> some strong advocates of Microsoft in this Group.
    >>>>
    >>>> There are several of them who post regularly, but one or two of them
    >>>> use a million different aliases so they seem like more. Their main
    >>>> pupose seems to be to disrupt this newsgroup, and they put a huge
    >>>> effort into it, so you wonder what they're getting out of it (like
    >>>> who's paying their bills). Hadron hasn't been around much lately,
    >>>> but he has a nasty style that you will see if you read many of his
    >>>> posts.
    >>>
    >>> He's in alt.os.linux.ubuntu ATM, trying to play all innocent.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> And getting the flak from all corners by now
    >>
    >> His MS astroturfing was a bit too obvious

    >
    > Yes, quite a few have noticed that.



    But aren't Google posts filtered by virtue of your fantastic filtering
    mechanism?
    --
    flatfish+++

    "Why do they call it a flatfish?"
    "Is this the year of Linux?"
    "Linux is free only when your time has no value"

  8. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Oct 30, 3:49 pm, Peter Khlmann
    wrote:
    > The "true linux advocate", "kernel hacker", "emacs user", "swapfile
    > expert", "X specialist", "CUPS guru", "USB-disk server admin", "newsreader
    > magician", "hardware maven" and "time coordinator" Hadron Quark, aka Hans
    > Schneider, aka Damian O'Leary wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > spi...@freenet.co.uk writes:

    >
    > >> Hadron did eloquently scribble:
    > >>> As far as practical "courses" for the languages and tools of interest
    > >>> keep an eye out for

    >
    > >>> C/C++
    > >>> GDB
    > >>> Eclipse
    > >>> Perl
    > >>> PHP
    > >>> Python
    > >>> Apache/Tomcat
    > >>> Mysql/RDBMS

    >
    > >> You forgot java, unless that fad has passed now. It was just introduced
    > >> as the main computer language for the first year when I was in the
    > >> second, but then, this was 11 years ago.

    >
    > >> Before then we did modula-2.
    > >> You also forgot SML, occam and prolog, which feature quite greatly in
    > >> some courses (different programming approaches, AI/expert systems,
    > >> parallel processing, etc)

    >
    > > None of which have any practical usage in an Open Source
    > > environment.

    >
    > Lets see:
    >
    > Modula-2: Supplied on SuSE by default
    > SML: Supplied on SuSE by default
    > Occam: released for linux in 1999
    > Prolog: Supplied on SuSE by default
    >
    > All of those are also on the Debian disks
    >
    > Yes, that certainly reeks of "no practical usage"
    >
    > When will you start to get your very first clue about linux, Hadron Quark?
    >
    > < snip more Hadron idiocy >


    Supplied by default does not instantly make it have practical usage.
    That said, they certainly don't have widespread usage, but are the
    best choices in certain instances. In general they are good to know
    just for a different programming paradigm.


  9. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:55:07 GMT, Linonut wrote:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Erik Funkenbusch belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:16:13 +0000, [H]omer wrote:
    >>
    >>> As for job prospects related to Linux training, well just look at the
    >>> current job market and see for yourself, it's a 50/50 split between
    >>> database and administrators, and most of it seems to be *nix related, or
    >>> at least in heterogeneous environments, and those with *nix experience
    >>> are a highly sought-after commodity, so you'll have /no/ problem
    >>> securing employment. Indeed, various studies over the last few years
    >>> indicates a massive IT staff shortage in the UK (and presumably
    >>> elsewhere too), so you'll end up having your pick of positions.

    >>
    >> Don't you think it's a bit.. umm.. over the top to get a degree in CS, only
    >> to become a system administrator or dba? Talk about wasting your
    >> education.
    >>
    >> That's not to say that SA's and DBA's don't need education, but they don't
    >> the CS Degrees.

    >
    > Would an MCSE suffice?


    MCSE isn't education, it's certification. Do you not understand the
    difference?

  10. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    cc did eloquently scribble:
    > Supplied by default does not instantly make it have practical usage.
    > That said, they certainly don't have widespread usage, but are the
    > best choices in certain instances. In general they are good to know
    > just for a different programming paradigm.


    Which is why they're taught in univerities.
    No-one would use Modula-2 to produce a serious program, it's an educational
    language mainly. As the whole language dictates that you specify inputs and
    outputs to all routines, it's good for getting into the habit of documenting
    your code.

    prolog CAN be used more seriously. I never did get much of a grip of it, too
    different to the normal procedural paradigm, I was used to, but I understand
    where it's useful if not vital.

    It'd take reams of C source to perform something 1 line of prolog could do.
    --
    __________________________________________________ ____________________________
    | spike1@freenet.co.uk | |
    |Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't |
    | in | suck is probably the day they start making |
    | Computer science | vacuum cleaners" - Ernst Jan Plugge |
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  11. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Erik Funkenbusch belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:55:07 GMT, Linonut wrote:
    >> After takin' a swig o' grog, Erik Funkenbusch belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>
    >>> Don't you think it's a bit.. umm.. over the top to get a degree in CS, only
    >>> to become a system administrator or dba? Talk about wasting your
    >>> education.
    >>>
    >>> That's not to say that SA's and DBA's don't need education, but they don't
    >>> the CS Degrees.

    >>
    >> Would an MCSE suffice?

    >
    > MCSE isn't education, it's certification. Do you not understand the
    > difference?


    Which specialist did you go to for the sense-of-humor-ectomy?

    --
    Looks like the only smile he has is the permanent vertical one!

  12. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 01:58:15 GMT, Linonut wrote:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Erik Funkenbusch belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:55:07 GMT, Linonut wrote:
    >>> After takin' a swig o' grog, Erik Funkenbusch belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>>
    >>>> Don't you think it's a bit.. umm.. over the top to get a degree in CS, only
    >>>> to become a system administrator or dba? Talk about wasting your
    >>>> education.
    >>>>
    >>>> That's not to say that SA's and DBA's don't need education, but they don't
    >>>> the CS Degrees.
    >>>
    >>> Would an MCSE suffice?

    >>
    >> MCSE isn't education, it's certification. Do you not understand the
    >> difference?

    >
    > Which specialist did you go to for the sense-of-humor-ectomy?


    Oh, I have a sense of humor. I just require jokes to make some semblance
    of logical sense for them to be funny.

  13. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    Hadron :
    > "finbarr2008@googlemail.com" writes:
    >
    >> Next year I would like to go to University to do a BSc Computer
    >> Science.
    >>
    >> However, I think my job prospects on leaving University would be
    >> greatly enhanced if I had studied Open Source computing. A lot of
    >> companies seem to be using it, but Universities insist on turning out
    >> graduates who seem to only know Microsoft/Windows.

    >
    > Total and utter bull****.


    With a bow to Hadron, I'm going to rephrase, or paraphrase, his answer
    with my interpretation:

    If you want to study code, OSS can offer you more code than you can
    possibly handle. If you want to study system integration techniques,
    Windows has a really nice idea. If you can build a system on OSS with
    all of it's nice features, and make it as integrated as Windows, Kudos
    to you.

    Gnome and KDE are well on their way though, so study the code, then join
    a group or start your own based on their code. That's how OSS works!

    --
    Ooooooh, nooooooo, not tonite!!

    http://www.websterscafe.com

  14. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    In article <1193770464.281929.253640@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.c om>,
    Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    > > > - Caltech (founded by former MITers not too happy with the Boston
    > > > weather)

    ....
    > > And where did you get that interesting bit of Caltech history? You
    > > should write to them and let them know, so they can correct their
    > > publications, which have omitted their MIT origins. Caltech was founded
    > > in 1891 by a local Pasadena businessman, as a vocational school. The
    > > only early MIT connection seems to be when the George Hale joined the
    > > board of directors in 1907, and played a major role in transforming the
    > > school into a major scientific research institution. He did convince
    > > other prominent scientists to come to Pasadena, but most of them were
    > > not from MIT. They were from top universities all over the world.

    >
    >
    > You shouldn't have stopped at Wikipedia, Tim. Just go to the "History
    > of Caltech":
    >
    > http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/p...cles/goodstein
    >
    > and search for "MIT".


    OK, done. What was that supposed to show? Hale came from MIT. He
    later got Noyes to come from MIT. Millikan came from the University of
    Chicago. The ones who came shortly after that came from quite a diverse
    set of top universities. And where did you get the notion that Hale and
    Noyes came because of the Boston weather?

    Caltech doesn't mention being founding by former MITers on the public
    tour, nor in the history section of their catalog. I never heard that
    story when I was a student there, either.

  15. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    In article <1193769240.042082.116470@v3g2000hsg.googlegroups.c om>,
    Finbarr wrote:
    > > I would suggest you learn what computer science is. All your questions
    > > have nothing to do with computer science. To put it in non-CS terms,
    > > you are like a student preparing to study mechanical engineering asking
    > > if he should get a car with a manual transmission or an automatic
    > > transmission. That's an interesting question, but has nothing to do
    > > with getting a mechanical engineering degree.

    >
    > A big thank you to both Rex and Ramon for their lengthy, and
    > informative, replies. With regard to Tim's reply that I should learn
    > what computer science is, that is exactly what I am in the process of
    > doing. I am only 16yrs old and clearly do not know as much as you
    > guys, which is why I am seeking a range of advice before choosing the
    > right course for me.


    Well, that's why I gave you an analogy. Take a look here:



    That will give you a decent idea of what is covered by computer science.

  16. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Erik Funkenbusch belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 01:58:15 GMT, Linonut wrote:
    >
    >> After takin' a swig o' grog, Erik Funkenbusch belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>
    >>> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:55:07 GMT, Linonut wrote:
    >>>> After takin' a swig o' grog, Erik Funkenbusch belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Don't you think it's a bit.. umm.. over the top to get a degree in CS, only
    >>>>> to become a system administrator or dba? Talk about wasting your
    >>>>> education.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> That's not to say that SA's and DBA's don't need education, but they don't
    >>>>> the CS Degrees.
    >>>>
    >>>> Would an MCSE suffice?
    >>>
    >>> MCSE isn't education, it's certification. Do you not understand the
    >>> difference?

    >>
    >> Which specialist did you go to for the sense-of-humor-ectomy?

    >
    > Oh, I have a sense of humor. I just require jokes to make some semblance
    > of logical sense for them to be funny.


    In other words, you have no sense of humor.

    By the way, dude, is a Ph.D. an education or a certification?

    --
    Tux rox!

  17. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

    >On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 01:58:15 GMT, Linonut wrote:
    >
    >> After takin' a swig o' grog, Erik Funkenbusch belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>
    >>> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:55:07 GMT, Linonut wrote:
    >>>> After takin' a swig o' grog, Erik Funkenbusch belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Don't you think it's a bit.. umm.. over the top to get a degree in CS, only
    >>>>> to become a system administrator or dba? Talk about wasting your
    >>>>> education.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> That's not to say that SA's and DBA's don't need education, but they don't
    >>>>> the CS Degrees.
    >>>>
    >>>> Would an MCSE suffice?
    >>>
    >>> MCSE isn't education, it's certification. Do you not understand the
    >>> difference?

    >>
    >> Which specialist did you go to for the sense-of-humor-ectomy?

    >
    >Oh, I have a sense of humor. I just require jokes to make some semblance
    >of logical sense for them to be funny.


    Well, a joke can't be funny if it comes at the expense of your
    masters, can it, Fuddie? Funny Fuddie.


  18. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    On Oct 31, 12:44 am, Tim Smith
    wrote:
    > In article <1193770464.281929.253...@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.c om>,
    > Ramon F Herrera wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > > > - Caltech (founded by former MITers not too happy with the Boston
    > > > > weather)

    > ...
    > > > And where did you get that interesting bit of Caltech history? You
    > > > should write to them and let them know, so they can correct their
    > > > publications, which have omitted their MIT origins. Caltech was founded
    > > > in 1891 by a local Pasadena businessman, as a vocational school. The
    > > > only early MIT connection seems to be when the George Hale joined the
    > > > board of directors in 1907, and played a major role in transforming the
    > > > school into a major scientific research institution. He did convince
    > > > other prominent scientists to come to Pasadena, but most of them were
    > > > not from MIT. They were from top universities all over the world.

    >
    > > You shouldn't have stopped at Wikipedia, Tim. Just go to the "History
    > > of Caltech":

    >
    > > http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/p...cles/goodstein

    >
    > > and search for "MIT".

    >
    > OK, done. What was that supposed to show? Hale came from MIT. He
    > later got Noyes to come from MIT. Millikan came from the University of
    > Chicago. The ones who came shortly after that came from quite a diverse
    > set of top universities. And where did you get the notion that Hale and
    > Noyes came because of the Boston weather?
    >


    I heard that legend at MIT when I was there, and never bothered to
    confirm it (being too busy connecting the school to the Internet).
    They also have plenty of anecdotes such as this one: There are 6
    people in an elevator which has a clear sign: "Max capacity: 6
    persons". When a new passenger tries to enter, he is asked: "Are you
    from Harvard and therefore you don't know how to count, or from MIT
    and therefore you don't know how to read?"

    -RFH



  19. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    spike1@freenet.co.uk writes:

    > Hadron did eloquently scribble:
    >>> You forgot java, unless that fad has passed now. It was just introduced as
    >>> the main computer language for the first year when I was in the second, but
    >>> then, this was 11 years ago.
    >>>
    >>> Before then we did modula-2.
    >>> You also forgot SML, occam and prolog, which feature quite greatly in some
    >>> courses (different programming approaches, AI/expert systems, parallel
    >>> processing, etc)

    >
    >> None of which have any practical usage in an Open Source
    >> environment. The languages I listed are the ones most commonly used (I
    >> did forget JS and Java to be honest) in a GNU/Linux environment.

    >
    > Prolog has no practical use in an open source environment?
    > How so?
    > SML has no practical use in an open source environment?
    > How so?
    > Occam has no practical use in an open source environment?
    > How so?


    "practical"

    These skills are not widely sort.

    I did Occam back in 1988 I think it was. Haven't seen anything of it
    since in the wild.

    Yes, these as skills are good for improving someones thinking and
    strategy but they are not wideley sought skills for professional
    programmers coming out of University - Open Source or not.


    --
    I don't think anyone should write their autobiography until after
    they're dead. -Samuel Goldwyn

  20. Re: How can I study Computer Science - but avoid Microsoft ?

    William Poaster writes:

    > nessuno@wigner.berkeley.edu wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>>
    >>> I was surprised to see from other postings that there are clearly some
    >>> strong advocates of Microsoft in this Group.

    >>
    >> There are several of them who post regularly, but one or two of them
    >> use a million different aliases so they seem like more. Their main
    >> pupose seems to be to disrupt this newsgroup, and they put a huge
    >> effort into it, so you wonder what they're getting out of it (like
    >> who's paying their bills). Hadron hasn't been around much lately, but
    >> he has a nasty style that you will see if you read many of his
    >> posts.

    >
    > He's in alt.os.linux.ubuntu ATM, trying to play all innocent.


    I have been in Ubuntu since I have been here Willy. The question is why
    are you there? You seem to know next to nothing about Linux and only
    ever talk about killfiles. You are a nothing. High Plains Rafael offers
    more than you.

    Nessuno : shame on you.

    --
    I don't think anyone should write their autobiography until after
    they're dead. -Samuel Goldwyn

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