there are also another producs "or parts"

cedega, crossover office

cedega is special for games


"Giovanni Dicanio" wrote in message
news:%23jsXkD$GIHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>
> "Stefan Patric" ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:XEyVi.56170$054.2686@newsfe14.phx...
>
>>>>Have you thought of running Wine on your linux box? It runs windows
>>>>executables pretty nicely. http://www.winehq.org/
>>>
>>> Is it running them as fast as in native windows?
>>
>> Usually. Sometimes, the Windows apps run faster under Wine than they do
>> under Windows itself.
>
> Have you some benchmarks to prove that?
>
> Frankly speaking, I don't buy this thing that Wine-emulated Windows apps
> run faster than native Windows apps...
> (but I'm open to correct my idea.)
>
> Giovanni
>
>

there are also another producs "or parts"

cedega, crossover office

cedega is special for games


"Giovanni Dicanio" wrote in message
news:%23jsXkD$GIHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>
> "Stefan Patric" ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:XEyVi.56170$054.2686@newsfe14.phx...
>
>>>>Have you thought of running Wine on your linux box? It runs windows
>>>>executables pretty nicely. http://www.winehq.org/
>>>
>>> Is it running them as fast as in native windows?
>>
>> Usually. Sometimes, the Windows apps run faster under Wine than they do
>> under Windows itself.
>
> Have you some benchmarks to prove that?
>
> Frankly speaking, I don't buy this thing that Wine-emulated Windows apps
> run faster than native Windows apps...
> (but I'm open to correct my idea.)
>
> Giovanni
>
>

"Douglas O'Neal" wrote in message
news:fgajvv$352$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu...
> Giovanni Dicanio wrote:
>> "Stefan Patric" ha scritto nel messaggio
>> news:XEyVi.56170$054.2686@newsfe14.phx...
>>
>>>>> Have you thought of running Wine on your linux box? It runs windows
>>>>> executables pretty nicely. http://www.winehq.org/
>>>> Is it running them as fast as in native windows?
>>> Usually. Sometimes, the Windows apps run faster under Wine than they
>>> do
>>> under Windows itself.
>>
>> Have you some benchmarks to prove that?
>>
>> Frankly speaking, I don't buy this thing that Wine-emulated Windows apps
>> run
>> faster than native Windows apps...
>> (but I'm open to correct my idea.)
>>
>> Giovanni
>>
>>
>
> http://wiki.winehq.org/BenchMark-0.9.5


Oh yeah. Let the people who write WINE run these benchmarks so they can
tell you just how fast WINE is. While you're looking at these "impartial"
benchmarks why not go to Microsoft.com for an "unbiased" benchmark that
compares Windows performance to linux.

Here's an independent benchmark although even Phoronix tends to be very
linux oriented.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item=882&num=5


Ubuntu 7.1 + WINE vs Windows XP

Windows was the clear winner by a landslide. Windows XP was noticeably
faster and in some cases was nearly five times faster. The ONLY test where
WINE had outperformed Windows was with the 3DMark03 CPU Test.





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Douglas O'Neal" wrote in message
news:fgajvv$352$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu...
> Giovanni Dicanio wrote:
>> "Stefan Patric" ha scritto nel messaggio
>> news:XEyVi.56170$054.2686@newsfe14.phx...
>>
>>>>> Have you thought of running Wine on your linux box? It runs windows
>>>>> executables pretty nicely. http://www.winehq.org/
>>>> Is it running them as fast as in native windows?
>>> Usually. Sometimes, the Windows apps run faster under Wine than they
>>> do
>>> under Windows itself.
>>
>> Have you some benchmarks to prove that?
>>
>> Frankly speaking, I don't buy this thing that Wine-emulated Windows apps
>> run
>> faster than native Windows apps...
>> (but I'm open to correct my idea.)
>>
>> Giovanni
>>
>>
>
> http://wiki.winehq.org/BenchMark-0.9.5


Oh yeah. Let the people who write WINE run these benchmarks so they can
tell you just how fast WINE is. While you're looking at these "impartial"
benchmarks why not go to Microsoft.com for an "unbiased" benchmark that
compares Windows performance to linux.

Here's an independent benchmark although even Phoronix tends to be very
linux oriented.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item=882&num=5


Ubuntu 7.1 + WINE vs Windows XP

Windows was the clear winner by a landslide. Windows XP was noticeably
faster and in some cases was nearly five times faster. The ONLY test where
WINE had outperformed Windows was with the 3DMark03 CPU Test.





--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Bruce Banner wrote:

>
> "Douglas O'Neal" wrote in message
> news:fgajvv$352$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu...
>> Giovanni Dicanio wrote:
>>> "Stefan Patric" ha scritto nel messaggio
>>> news:XEyVi.56170$054.2686@newsfe14.phx...
>>>
>>>>>> Have you thought of running Wine on your linux box? It runs windows
>>>>>> executables pretty nicely. http://www.winehq.org/
>>>>> Is it running them as fast as in native windows?
>>>> Usually. Sometimes, the Windows apps run faster under Wine than they
>>>> do
>>>> under Windows itself.
>>>
>>> Have you some benchmarks to prove that?
>>>
>>> Frankly speaking, I don't buy this thing that Wine-emulated Windows apps
>>> run
>>> faster than native Windows apps...
>>> (but I'm open to correct my idea.)
>>>
>>> Giovanni
>>>
>>>
>>
>> http://wiki.winehq.org/BenchMark-0.9.5
>
>
> Oh yeah. Let the people who write WINE run these benchmarks so they can
> tell you just how fast WINE is. While you're looking at these "impartial"
> benchmarks why not go to Microsoft.com for an "unbiased" benchmark that
> compares Windows performance to linux.
>
> Here's an independent benchmark although even Phoronix tends to be very
> linux oriented.
>
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item=882&num=5
>
>
> Ubuntu 7.1 + WINE vs Windows XP
>
> Windows was the clear winner by a landslide. Windows XP was noticeably
> faster and in some cases was nearly five times faster. The ONLY test where
> WINE had outperformed Windows was with the 3DMark03 CPU Test.
>
>

Let me get this straight... You are bashing the WINDOWS EMULATOR because it
fails to run window programs at native speeds? You even try to make this
seem like a linux problem of some sort...

You are a TOTAL idiot! GET A CLUE...

An emulator will never run programs as fast as the platform it is emulating.
The beauty of wine is... you don' needs windows to run windows apps on the
Linux platform.

Personally, I think wine should be abandoned. Supporting windows on Linux is
not something I agree with...

People, like yourself, are nothing more than windows weenie... try to spread
fud where you can and try to make it sound substantial.

Stick your fud where the sun dont shine, you idiot! You're looking pretty
stupid here...


--

Jerry McBride (jmcbride@mail-on.us

Bruce Banner wrote:

>
> "Douglas O'Neal" wrote in message
> news:fgajvv$352$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu...
>> Giovanni Dicanio wrote:
>>> "Stefan Patric" ha scritto nel messaggio
>>> news:XEyVi.56170$054.2686@newsfe14.phx...
>>>
>>>>>> Have you thought of running Wine on your linux box? It runs windows
>>>>>> executables pretty nicely. http://www.winehq.org/
>>>>> Is it running them as fast as in native windows?
>>>> Usually. Sometimes, the Windows apps run faster under Wine than they
>>>> do
>>>> under Windows itself.
>>>
>>> Have you some benchmarks to prove that?
>>>
>>> Frankly speaking, I don't buy this thing that Wine-emulated Windows apps
>>> run
>>> faster than native Windows apps...
>>> (but I'm open to correct my idea.)
>>>
>>> Giovanni
>>>
>>>
>>
>> http://wiki.winehq.org/BenchMark-0.9.5
>
>
> Oh yeah. Let the people who write WINE run these benchmarks so they can
> tell you just how fast WINE is. While you're looking at these "impartial"
> benchmarks why not go to Microsoft.com for an "unbiased" benchmark that
> compares Windows performance to linux.
>
> Here's an independent benchmark although even Phoronix tends to be very
> linux oriented.
>
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item=882&num=5
>
>
> Ubuntu 7.1 + WINE vs Windows XP
>
> Windows was the clear winner by a landslide. Windows XP was noticeably
> faster and in some cases was nearly five times faster. The ONLY test where
> WINE had outperformed Windows was with the 3DMark03 CPU Test.
>
>

Let me get this straight... You are bashing the WINDOWS EMULATOR because it
fails to run window programs at native speeds? You even try to make this
seem like a linux problem of some sort...

You are a TOTAL idiot! GET A CLUE...

An emulator will never run programs as fast as the platform it is emulating.
The beauty of wine is... you don' needs windows to run windows apps on the
Linux platform.

Personally, I think wine should be abandoned. Supporting windows on Linux is
not something I agree with...

People, like yourself, are nothing more than windows weenie... try to spread
fud where you can and try to make it sound substantial.

Stick your fud where the sun dont shine, you idiot! You're looking pretty
stupid here...


--

Jerry McBride (jmcbride@mail-on.us

Those particular benchmarks just show relative quality of 3D driver on one
platform vs another. Just fps. It's not like XP is faster or slower.

"Bruce Banner" wrote in message
news:472b8e8a$0$26491$88260bb3@free.teranews.com.. .
>
>
> Oh yeah. Let the people who write WINE run these benchmarks so they can
> tell you just how fast WINE is. While you're looking at these "impartial"
> benchmarks why not go to Microsoft.com for an "unbiased" benchmark that
> compares Windows performance to linux.
>
> Here's an independent benchmark although even Phoronix tends to be very
> linux oriented.
>
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item=882&num=5
>
>
> Ubuntu 7.1 + WINE vs Windows XP
>
> Windows was the clear winner by a landslide. Windows XP was noticeably
> faster and in some cases was nearly five times faster. The ONLY test where
> WINE had outperformed Windows was with the 3DMark03 CPU Test.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>

Those particular benchmarks just show relative quality of 3D driver on one
platform vs another. Just fps. It's not like XP is faster or slower.

"Bruce Banner" wrote in message
news:472b8e8a$0$26491$88260bb3@free.teranews.com.. .
>
>
> Oh yeah. Let the people who write WINE run these benchmarks so they can
> tell you just how fast WINE is. While you're looking at these "impartial"
> benchmarks why not go to Microsoft.com for an "unbiased" benchmark that
> compares Windows performance to linux.
>
> Here's an independent benchmark although even Phoronix tends to be very
> linux oriented.
>
> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item=882&num=5
>
>
> Ubuntu 7.1 + WINE vs Windows XP
>
> Windows was the clear winner by a landslide. Windows XP was noticeably
> faster and in some cases was nearly five times faster. The ONLY test where
> WINE had outperformed Windows was with the 3DMark03 CPU Test.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
>

In article <#ZDL5dcHIHA.824@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl>, "Alexander Grigoriev" wrote:
>Those particular benchmarks just show relative quality of 3D driver on one
>platform vs another. Just fps. It's not like XP is faster or slower.
>
>"Bruce Banner" wrote in message
>news:472b8e8a$0$26491$88260bb3@free.teranews.com.. .
>>
>>
>> Oh yeah. Let the people who write WINE run these benchmarks so they can
>> tell you just how fast WINE is. While you're looking at these "impartial"
>> benchmarks why not go to Microsoft.com for an "unbiased" benchmark that
>> compares Windows performance to linux.
>>
>> Here's an independent benchmark although even Phoronix tends to be very
>> linux oriented.
>>
>> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item=882&num=5
>>
>>
>> Ubuntu 7.1 + WINE vs Windows XP
>>
>> Windows was the clear winner by a landslide. Windows XP was noticeably
>> faster and in some cases was nearly five times faster. The ONLY test where
>> WINE had outperformed Windows was with the 3DMark03 CPU Test.
>>

Interesting. But someone just said recently that vine runs
faster than native windoze.

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In article <#ZDL5dcHIHA.824@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl>, "Alexander Grigoriev" wrote:
>Those particular benchmarks just show relative quality of 3D driver on one
>platform vs another. Just fps. It's not like XP is faster or slower.
>
>"Bruce Banner" wrote in message
>news:472b8e8a$0$26491$88260bb3@free.teranews.com.. .
>>
>>
>> Oh yeah. Let the people who write WINE run these benchmarks so they can
>> tell you just how fast WINE is. While you're looking at these "impartial"
>> benchmarks why not go to Microsoft.com for an "unbiased" benchmark that
>> compares Windows performance to linux.
>>
>> Here's an independent benchmark although even Phoronix tends to be very
>> linux oriented.
>>
>> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item=882&num=5
>>
>>
>> Ubuntu 7.1 + WINE vs Windows XP
>>
>> Windows was the clear winner by a landslide. Windows XP was noticeably
>> faster and in some cases was nearly five times faster. The ONLY test where
>> WINE had outperformed Windows was with the 3DMark03 CPU Test.
>>

Interesting. But someone just said recently that vine runs
faster than native windoze.

--
The most powerful Usenet tool you have ever heard of.
NewsMaestro v. 4.0.6 - Dictionary Update/Expert Mode has been released.

* Significant improvement in symbol substitution mechanism
for verb tense and plurals.
* Expert mode.
* Miscellaneous improvements and bug fixes.
* Templates generator improvements.
* Multi-job support.

Note: In some previous releases some class files were missing.
As a result, the program would not run.
Sorry for the inconvenience.

Web page:
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Download page:
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Send any feedback, ideas, suggestions, test results to
newsmaestroinfo \at/ mail.ru.

Your personal info will not be released and your privacy
will be honored.

See below...
On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 18:54:32 -0400, Jerry McBride wrote:

>Bruce Banner wrote:
>
>>
>> "Douglas O'Neal" wrote in message
>> news:fgajvv$352$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu...
>>> Giovanni Dicanio wrote:
>>>> "Stefan Patric" ha scritto nel messaggio
>>>> news:XEyVi.56170$054.2686@newsfe14.phx...
>>>>
>>>>>>> Have you thought of running Wine on your linux box? It runs windows
>>>>>>> executables pretty nicely. http://www.winehq.org/
>>>>>> Is it running them as fast as in native windows?
>>>>> Usually. Sometimes, the Windows apps run faster under Wine than they
>>>>> do
>>>>> under Windows itself.
>>>>
>>>> Have you some benchmarks to prove that?
>>>>
>>>> Frankly speaking, I don't buy this thing that Wine-emulated Windows apps
>>>> run
>>>> faster than native Windows apps...
>>>> (but I'm open to correct my idea.)
>>>>
>>>> Giovanni
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> http://wiki.winehq.org/BenchMark-0.9.5
>>
>>
>> Oh yeah. Let the people who write WINE run these benchmarks so they can
>> tell you just how fast WINE is. While you're looking at these "impartial"
>> benchmarks why not go to Microsoft.com for an "unbiased" benchmark that
>> compares Windows performance to linux.
>>
>> Here's an independent benchmark although even Phoronix tends to be very
>> linux oriented.
>>
>> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item=882&num=5
>>
>>
>> Ubuntu 7.1 + WINE vs Windows XP
>>
>> Windows was the clear winner by a landslide. Windows XP was noticeably
>> faster and in some cases was nearly five times faster. The ONLY test where
>> WINE had outperformed Windows was with the 3DMark03 CPU Test.
>>
>>
>
>Let me get this straight... You are bashing the WINDOWS EMULATOR because it
>fails to run window programs at native speeds? You even try to make this
>seem like a linux problem of some sort...
****
I saw no bashing; I did see that it was pointed out that WINE runs slower than native
Win32. If facts constitute bashing, you need to get a clue.

What it says is that if you plan to run a native WIndows app on linux, it will run slower.
Whether or not this is a "problem" depends on your needs
****
>
>You are a TOTAL idiot! GET A CLUE...
>
>An emulator will never run programs as fast as the platform it is emulating.
>The beauty of wine is... you don' needs windows to run windows apps on the
>Linux platform.
****
Not true. I know several emulators that emulate their platforms faster than the native
platforms, because the native platforms are quite old. You can emulate all kinds of old
machines that had 1us instruction times without straining on a 2GHz machine, and in
general they will run MUCH faster than the native platform ever did!

I had the idea of running my 1401 emulator by having it generate native x86 code (it was
running 7 times slower than the native platform) but then I got a machine 1000 times
faster than the one I wrote it on, and, well, it runs its emulation about 100 times faster
than the native platform. I've been told that the DEC-20 emulator running on a PC is a
good 20 times faster than the original DEC-20.
****
>
>Personally, I think wine should be abandoned. Supporting windows on Linux is
>not something I agree with...
****
Does this suggest that you believe that linux should be discarded and therefore Windows
should win, or that everyone should adopt linux because it is smaller, faster, less
capable, outdated, harder to use, and has a command line interface from the dark ages?

I stopped using Unix in 1991 and have never been happier. In fact, in 1991, I could
develop code on a PC under MS-DOS faster than I could develop code on Unix, because the
compiler and linker were faster, the compiler had no bugs, the linker worked, and the
debugger worked, none of which were true of Unix.
****
>
>People, like yourself, are nothing more than windows weenie... try to spread
>fud where you can and try to make it sound substantial.
****
Why would I ever consider a platform for which very little software is available? At
least, professional software with complete support departments? I just checked Adobe's
Master Collection, and it is available for Windows and Mac OS X, but not linux. (I just
got my copy, so it is sitting beside me). Don't tell me about OpenOffice: that is a very,
very small part of what I do. Most of the tools I use are available only on Windows, or
for Windows and Mac. Linux is not an interesting desktop market at the moment, and
therefore not particularly interesting to other than hard-core linux types.

Perhaps you are nothing more than a linux weenie, and believe that linux and free software
solve all known problems. Alas, I've been living in the Real World far too long to
believe that. As far as I can tell, the only real advantage seems to be that it makes a
good server, and there's a lot of argument about whether or not that is really true.
****
>
>Stick your fud where the sun dont shine, you idiot! You're looking pretty
>stupid here...
****
You're not looking too good, yourself...
joe
****
Joseph M. Newcomer [MVP]
email: newcomer@flounder.com
Web: http://www.flounder.com
MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm

Jerry McBride writes:

>Bruce Banner wrote:

>>
>> "Douglas O'Neal" wrote in message
>> news:fgajvv$352$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu...
>>> Giovanni Dicanio wrote:
>>>> "Stefan Patric" ha scritto nel messaggio
>>>> news:XEyVi.56170$054.2686@newsfe14.phx...
>>>>
>>>>>>> Have you thought of running Wine on your linux box? It runs windows
>>>>>>> executables pretty nicely. http://www.winehq.org/
>>>>>> Is it running them as fast as in native windows?
>>>>> Usually. Sometimes, the Windows apps run faster under Wine than they
>>>>> do
>>>>> under Windows itself.
>>>>
>>>> Have you some benchmarks to prove that?
>>>>
>>>> Frankly speaking, I don't buy this thing that Wine-emulated Windows apps
>>>> run
>>>> faster than native Windows apps...
>>>> (but I'm open to correct my idea.)
>>>>
>>>> Giovanni
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> http://wiki.winehq.org/BenchMark-0.9.5
>>
>>
>> Oh yeah. Let the people who write WINE run these benchmarks so they can
>> tell you just how fast WINE is. While you're looking at these "impartial"
>> benchmarks why not go to Microsoft.com for an "unbiased" benchmark that
>> compares Windows performance to linux.
>>
>> Here's an independent benchmark although even Phoronix tends to be very
>> linux oriented.
>>
>> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item=882&num=5
>>
>>
>> Ubuntu 7.1 + WINE vs Windows XP
>>
>> Windows was the clear winner by a landslide. Windows XP was noticeably
>> faster and in some cases was nearly five times faster. The ONLY test where
>> WINE had outperformed Windows was with the 3DMark03 CPU Test.
>>
>>

>Let me get this straight... You are bashing the WINDOWS EMULATOR because it
>fails to run window programs at native speeds? You even try to make this
>seem like a linux problem of some sort...

No, he was countering a claim that programs under wine run faster than
programs under native windows. He found that hard to beleive.
Mind you the benchmarks were pretty weird-- frames per second on graphics
cards for some games. I guess if you are playing games that is important.
Note that it might have more to do with the graphics drivers than with
wine. Ie, as a benchmark it is has a pretty limited use.

Bruce Banner wrote:
> "Douglas O'Neal" wrote in message
> news:fgajvv$352$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu...
>> Giovanni Dicanio wrote:
>>> "Stefan Patric" ha scritto nel messaggio
>>> news:XEyVi.56170$054.2686@newsfe14.phx...
>>>
>>>>>> Have you thought of running Wine on your linux box? It runs windows
>>>>>> executables pretty nicely. http://www.winehq.org/
>>>>> Is it running them as fast as in native windows?
>>>> Usually. Sometimes, the Windows apps run faster under Wine than they
>>>> do
>>>> under Windows itself.
>>> Have you some benchmarks to prove that?
>>>
>>> Frankly speaking, I don't buy this thing that Wine-emulated Windows apps
>>> run
>>> faster than native Windows apps...
>>> (but I'm open to correct my idea.)
>>>
>>> Giovanni
>>>
>>>
>> http://wiki.winehq.org/BenchMark-0.9.5
>
>
> Oh yeah. Let the people who write WINE run these benchmarks so they can
> tell you just how fast WINE is. While you're looking at these "impartial"
> benchmarks why not go to Microsoft.com for an "unbiased" benchmark that
> compares Windows performance to linux.
>

I generally assume that any product comparison is ether done by or paid
for by an interested party and is biased. If they're not interested,
then why bother with a comparison? The benchmark on the winehq site
is better than many in that it explicitly lists the hardware used and
lists the benchmarks with pointers to their source. I would like it
even better however if the author provided more details about the
software builds and patchlevels.

Now on your part, can you criticize the benchmark itself instead of
the benchmark's authors? If the numbers are solid then it doesn't
matter who published them. By the same token, if the numbers are
garbage, it doesn't matter who published them. So attack the
numbers, not the publishers.

Doug

Bruce Banner wrote:
> "Douglas O'Neal" wrote in message
> news:fgajvv$352$1@scrotar.nss.udel.edu...
>> Giovanni Dicanio wrote:
>>> "Stefan Patric" ha scritto nel messaggio
>>> news:XEyVi.56170$054.2686@newsfe14.phx...
>>>
>>>>>> Have you thought of running Wine on your linux box? It runs windows
>>>>>> executables pretty nicely. http://www.winehq.org/
>>>>> Is it running them as fast as in native windows?
>>>> Usually. Sometimes, the Windows apps run faster under Wine than they
>>>> do
>>>> under Windows itself.
>>> Have you some benchmarks to prove that?
>>>
>>> Frankly speaking, I don't buy this thing that Wine-emulated Windows apps
>>> run
>>> faster than native Windows apps...
>>> (but I'm open to correct my idea.)
>>>
>>> Giovanni
>>>
>>>
>> http://wiki.winehq.org/BenchMark-0.9.5
>
>
> Oh yeah. Let the people who write WINE run these benchmarks so they can
> tell you just how fast WINE is. While you're looking at these "impartial"
> benchmarks why not go to Microsoft.com for an "unbiased" benchmark that
> compares Windows performance to linux.
>

I generally assume that any product comparison is ether done by or paid
for by an interested party and is biased. If they're not interested,
then why bother with a comparison? The benchmark on the winehq site
is better than many in that it explicitly lists the hardware used and
lists the benchmarks with pointers to their source. I would like it
even better however if the author provided more details about the
software builds and patchlevels.

Now on your part, can you criticize the benchmark itself instead of
the benchmark's authors? If the numbers are solid then it doesn't
matter who published them. By the same token, if the numbers are
garbage, it doesn't matter who published them. So attack the
numbers, not the publishers.

Doug