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  1. Roy Schestowitz == SPAM <EOM>

    ..


  2. how's the weather in Greece ...

    Path:news.datemas.de!newsfeed.datemas.de!news.alba sani.net!newsfeed.freenet.de!news.tiscali.de!tisca li!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!64.233.178.134.MISMATCH!postnews.goog le.com!d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
    From: raylopez99
    Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
    Subject: Roy Schestowitz == SPAM
    Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 10:13:25 -0700
    Organization: http://groups.google.com
    Lines: 2
    Message-ID: <1193418805.980283.132460@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: 87.202.122.46
    Mime-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
    X-Trace: posting.google.com 1193418806 2376 127.0.0.1 (26 Oct 2007
    17:13:26 GMT)
    X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com
    NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:13:26 +0000 (UTC)
    User-Agent: G2/1.0
    X-HTTP-UserAgent: Opera/9.24 (Windows NT 5.1; U; en),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe)
    Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com
    Injection-Info: d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com; posting-host=87.202.122.46;
    posting-account=ps2QrAMAAAA6_jCuRt2JEIpn5Otqf_w0
    raylopez99 wrote:

    How's the weather in Greece ...

  3. Re: how's the weather in Greece ...

    On Oct 26, 10:22 am, Doug Mentohl wrote:
    > Path:news.datemas.de!newsfeed.datemas.de!news.alba sani.net!newsfeed.freenet*.de!news.tiscali.de!tisc ali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.p*roxad.net!64.233.178.134.MISMATCH!postnews.goo gle.com!d55g2000hsg.googlegro*ups.com!not-for-mail
    > From: raylopez99
    > Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
    > Subject: Roy Schestowitz == SPAM
    > Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 10:13:25 -0700
    > Organization:http://groups.google.com
    > Lines: 2
    > Message-ID: <1193418805.980283.132460@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>
    > NNTP-Posting-Host: 87.202.122.46
    > Mime-Version: 1.0
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
    > X-Trace: posting.google.com 1193418806 2376 127.0.0.1 (26 Oct 2007
    > 17:13:26 GMT)
    > X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com
    > NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:13:26 +0000 (UTC)
    > User-Agent: G2/1.0
    > X-HTTP-UserAgent: Opera/9.24 (Windows NT 5.1; U; en),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe)
    > Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com
    > Injection-Info: d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com; posting-host=87.202.122.46;
    > posting-account=ps2QrAMAAAA6_jCuRt2JEIpn5Otqf_w0
    > Xref: news.datemas.de comp.os.linux.advocacy:31393840
    >
    > raylopez99 wrote:
    >
    > How's the weather in Greece ...


    How would I know? I have an open relay and am posting from non-
    Greece.

    How'se the weather in your basement cubicle, you Vitamin D challenged
    COLA nerd? Have you got your Linux distro installed (that's half the
    fun--or is it all the fun--with Linux)?

    Real people use a real OS like Windows (TM).

    RL




  4. Re: Roy Schestowitz == SPAM <EOM>


    "raylopez99" wrote in message
    news:1193418805.980283.132460@d55g2000hsg.googlegr oups.com...
    > .


    That Schestowitz child does nothing with his life other than take news
    articles, twist the subject and/or contents to something that was never said
    and post it to obscure news groups and websites.

    Roy Schestowitz is basically a dishonest liar.



    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  5. Re: how's the weather in Greece ...

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, raylopez99

    wrote
    on Fri, 26 Oct 2007 10:58:29 -0700
    <1193421509.944227.26680@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.c om>:
    > On Oct 26, 10:22 am, Doug Mentohl wrote:
    >> Path:news.datemas.de!newsfeed.datemas.de!news.alba sani.net!newsfeed.freenet*.de!news.tiscali.de!tisc ali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.p*roxad.net!64.233.178.134.MISMATCH!postnews.goo gle.com!d55g2000hsg.googlegro*ups.com!not-for-mail
    >> From: raylopez99
    >> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
    >> Subject: Roy Schestowitz == SPAM
    >> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 10:13:25 -0700
    >> Organization:http://groups.google.com
    >> Lines: 2
    >> Message-ID: <1193418805.980283.132460@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>
    >> NNTP-Posting-Host: 87.202.122.46
    >> Mime-Version: 1.0
    >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
    >> X-Trace: posting.google.com 1193418806 2376 127.0.0.1 (26 Oct 2007
    >> 17:13:26 GMT)
    >> X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com
    >> NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:13:26 +0000 (UTC)
    >> User-Agent: G2/1.0
    >> X-HTTP-UserAgent: Opera/9.24 (Windows NT 5.1; U; en),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe)
    >> Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com
    >> Injection-Info: d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com; posting-host=87.202.122.46;
    >> posting-account=ps2QrAMAAAA6_jCuRt2JEIpn5Otqf_w0
    >> Xref: news.datemas.de comp.os.linux.advocacy:31393840
    >>
    >> raylopez99 wrote:
    >>
    >> How's the weather in Greece ...

    >
    > How would I know? I have an open relay and am posting from non-
    > Greece.
    >
    > How'se the weather in your basement cubicle, you Vitamin D challenged
    > COLA nerd? Have you got your Linux distro installed (that's half the
    > fun--or is it all the fun--with Linux)?
    >
    > Real people use a real OS like Windows (TM).
    >
    > RL
    >


    And what, pray tell, defines a "real OS"?

    Be specific.

    Some characteristics of both I can readily identify.

    [1] File management. Both abstract data as files and
    directories. Windows IE further abstracts the
    problem as documents and folders, though it's a light
    abstraction; I've seen more comprehensive (since I
    used to work in the CAD/CAM/CAE space).

    [2] Memory management. Both provide virtual memory,
    and can map files into virtual memory; the process
    thinks it's reading memory with the kernel handling
    the page faults, reading the file on its behalf.

    [3] Video. Both handle video, and various problems
    relating thereto such as drawing windows, digital
    rights management, and codecs.

    [4] Audio. Both handle audio, MIDI, and synthesis.

    [5] Network packet communications. The full specification
    of network communications could probably hold books,
    but suffice it to say both OSes handle TCP/IP, and
    higher-level protocols like SMTP (email), HTTP, and
    FTP. Windows further implements SOAP, though add-on
    packages for Linux are also available.

    [6] Drag and drop. Strictly speaking, this is more related
    to the GUI than the OS, but both Linux and Windows
    implement some variant of dragging an icon and then
    dropping it into a window. (In Linux's case, however,
    the D&D is handled by a higher level: KDE or Gnome.)

    [7] Text editing. One can quibble regarding Linux but both
    solutions provide rudimentary text editing, with access
    to more sophisticated solutions.

    [8] Web browsing. This might be a combination of [3] and
    [5], and Linux does *not* implement Web browsing
    as such, but most distros throw in Firefox, Galeon,
    Epiphany, and Konqueror, all of which can be used for
    web browsing.

    There's a few more but this post runs overlong already.

    So go ahead; sell me on Windows and its "real OS" capabilities.
    If nothing else, I need the exercise in tearing your arguments
    into ragged shreds. :-P

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    "640K ought to be enough for anybody."
    - allegedly said by Bill Gates, 1981, but somebody had to make this up!

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  6. Re: raylopez99 == SPAM <EOM>

    Micoshaft Asstrotufer raylopez99 wrote on behalf of Micoshaft Corporation:

    > .



  7. Re: how's the weather in Greece ...

    On 2007-10-26 13:58:29 -0400, raylopez99 said:
    > Real people use a real OS like Windows (TM).
    >
    > RL



    No people into S&M use Windows. everyone else uses Linux or Macs.

    Thanks Roy for the posts which provide MUCH information...



  8. Re: how's the weather in Greece ...

    [snips]

    On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:27:21 -0700, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

    > "640K ought to be enough for anybody."
    > - allegedly said by Bill Gates, 1981, but somebody had to make this up!


    Not necessarily. Recall, he did write "The obvious mathematical
    breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime
    numbers. "

    Hmm. Here's an easy way: write down the large prime number and 1. Voila.
    Done. Just doesn't get much easier than that.

  9. Re: how's the weather in Greece ...

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Kelsey Bjarnason

    wrote
    on Sun, 28 Oct 2007 15:57:20 -0700
    :
    > [snips]
    >
    > On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:27:21 -0700, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    >
    >> "640K ought to be enough for anybody."
    >> - allegedly said by Bill Gates, 1981, but somebody had to make this up!

    >
    > Not necessarily. Recall, he did write "The obvious
    > mathematical breakthrough would be development of an
    > easy way to factor large prime numbers. "


    (Google suggests page 265 in _The Road Ahead_ for a variant
    of this, erm, wisdom. I'm not about to buy me a copy. :-) )

    >
    > Hmm. Here's an easy way: write down the large prime number
    > and 1. Voila. Done. Just doesn't get much easier than that.


    Heh...not exactly the most cogent explicator of complicated
    math subjects, is he? :-) Had he left out the "prime",
    he'd have been all right.

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Windows. Because it's not a question of if.
    It's a question of when.

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  10. Re: how's the weather in Greece ...


    The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

    > >> And what, pray tell, defines a "real OS"?
    > >>


    > This gets complicated. Windows might have the edge
    > here...mostly because the default filesystem (NTFS) has
    > a BTree. One could quibble about Linux inodes, though,
    > and other Linux filesystems are available, some of which
    > might have BTrees.


    OK, interesting. If BTrees are used NTFS is still too slow. Perhaps
    BTrees for the file names, but not the data within the files. Maybe
    that was the contribution of the homicidal nerd I read about.

    > >>
    > >> [2] Memory management. Both provide virtual memory,
    > >> and can map files into virtual memory; the process
    > >> thinks it's reading memory with the kernel handling
    > >> the page faults, reading the file on its behalf.

    > >
    > > OK, makes sense. So a tie here.

    >
    > Absent further information on Windows extras. I've
    > forgotten how VMS handles this issue. Apollo DOMAIN
    > DomainOS (nee Aegis) treated every memory region as
    > a temporary file, IINM.



    > >>
    > >> [3] Video. Both handle video, and various problems
    > >> relating thereto such as drawing windows, digital
    > >> rights management, and codecs.

    > >
    > > Tie.

    >
    > Not quite. Windows has an edge because of Windows
    > Media Player. This is a definite victory for Windows.
    >


    If you say so. I would think there's a freeware Linux Media Player,
    and the .VOP format / codec for WMP can't be that superior.

    > >
    > >>
    > >> [4] Audio. Both handle audio, MIDI, and synthesis.

    > >
    > > Tie.

    >
    > A slight advantage for Windows, mostly because Linux audio
    > is still in flux as of this writing.


    Interesting.


    > >> [5] Network packet communications. The full specification
    > >> of network communications could probably hold books,
    > >> but suffice it to say both OSes handle TCP/IP, and
    > >> higher-level protocols like SMTP (email), HTTP, and
    > >> FTP. Windows further implements SOAP, though add-on
    > >> packages for Linux are also available.

    > >
    > > Uh huh, right, something about the OSI model comes to mind here, but
    > > it's not my field. A tie.

    >
    > Windows was at one point the more rigorous implementation
    > -- but that was back in the 3.1 timeframe, and TCP/IP
    > stacks on DOS were a mess. Linux wins here by a smidge,
    > because its stack is from all reports slightly better
    > from a reliability standpoint; however, both protocol
    > stacks have the same config options, and most Windows
    > installations have NAT frontends or items such as F5's
    > Big-IP handling the protection/networking, negating most
    > of Linux's advantages, real or perceived.


    Understood nothing--you're talking to yourself again (you seem to like
    that) but I trust your judgement on this issue.

    > >
    > >>
    > >> [6] Drag and drop. Strictly speaking, this is more related
    > >> to the GUI than the OS, but both Linux and Windows
    > >> implement some variant of dragging an icon and then
    > >> dropping it into a window. (In Linux's case, however,
    > >> the D&D is handled by a higher level: KDE or Gnome.)

    > >
    > > Interesting--KDE or Gnome seems to be not part of the OS but some sort
    > > of addon. No big deal; a tie.

    >
    > Actually, no; Windows wins here for obvious reasons.
    > Bear in mind that Linux qua Linux can't even *boot*
    > (/sbin/init or /bin/sh is required; check the source
    > code near the bottom in main.c if you don't believe me).
    > I've pointed this out in #8 below.


    Yes, apparently an add-on. Can't believe Windows is much better
    though, but I trust your judgement.

    >
    > Linux also borrowed the Win95 innovation of putting the
    > framing icons (iconify, maximize, close) at the upper
    > right. Prior to about Win95 the close was at the
    > upper *left*.
    >


    Copyright infringment--the MSFT software patent trolls are coming to
    get ya!

    > >

    > No, Windows wins *again* here; IE is part of Windows.
    > Opera, Lynx, Firefox, Kahehakase, Galeon, Epiphany,
    > and Konqueror are *not* part of Linux (although they are
    > offered by most distros).
    >


    Interesting.

    > So far...Windows +3 outright victories, +2 technical
    > victories. Linux: +1 technical victory, +1 reliability
    > victory.
    >
    > >
    > >>
    > >> There's a few more but this post runs overlong already.

    > >
    > > Right.
    > >>
    > >> So go ahead; sell me on Windows and its "real OS" capabilities.
    > >> If nothing else, I need the exercise in tearing your arguments
    > >> into ragged shreds. :-P

    > >
    > > You left out the BIGGEST REASON for using Windoze. It was a reason
    > > that was litigated in court, and vetted by high-powered lawyers making
    > > $500 an hour, so it must be true (or at least hard to refute). And it
    > > was made by the ENEMIES of MSFT. You know what that reason is?
    > >
    > > Answer: using Windows guarantees that 85-90% (depending on who's
    > > counting)

    >
    > 97%+ percent Windows as of one accounting -- I'd have
    > to find it. Dual-boots complicate things, but a lot of
    > Apple Macs run Windows in a VmWare-like offering; a lot
    > of Linux setups are dual boots. Servers are more varied,
    > but presumably Windows would win there, too -- except
    > that the IT guys haven't discovered that integration of
    > a Windows-Windows solution (using .NET) is superior to a
    > Linux-Linux, MacOSX-Linux, Linux-MacOSX, MacOSX-MaxOSX,
    > Windows-Linux, or Linux-Windows solution.
    >
    > (This is, of course, on the desktop; mobiles have a more
    > varied market, with Symbian taking the lion's share.)
    >
    > Remember, IIS supports everything IE can throw at it, and
    > ActiveX is a powerful (some say too powerful) solution that
    > can do anything on the user's box that the server requires.
    >
    > Of course, there are other issues which are "softer".
    > One problem, for instance, is which solution is faster,
    > and since Linux is clearly *not* the solution here, one
    > has to specify additional parameters -- e.g., Linux/Gentoo,
    > Linux/Fedora, Linux/Damn Small Linux -- in other words, the
    > "distro explosion" problem. Not that Windows doesn't have
    > a somewhat similar problem; there are now 9 Vista editions
    > one can choose from, with differing capabilities, and none
    > of which are appropriate for the server side. I have no
    > idea how many server variants there are, but those should
    > be considered as well, especially since they are going to
    > be on the other side of the client-server problem.
    >
    > Other issues include power consumption, general system
    > reliability, general extensibility, and cost. However,
    > the IDC report's conclusions are very very clear (if the
    > premises thereof are questionable): Linux does not win in
    > the TCO category.


    TCO is what TLA? Total Cost Ownership? Clearly Linux loses there.

    >
    > Windows is advancing in the service area, and we will
    > (presumably!) ultimately see the economies of scale that
    > are so badly needed in the server arena, especially
    > if Microsoft sets up a proper UDDI[*] server to find
    > business solutions. Unfortunately, Vista was a bit of
    > a setback on the desktop, and Microsoft's not exactly
    > generating a lot of good press. To be fair, Microsoft
    > seems to be recovering, but they do have the problem of
    > an oversaturated market; Linux is "fresher" and therefore
    > more interesting to some.


    Yes, I'm holding off Vista until 2009--by that time they'll have a 64
    bit and/or parallel processor version of Office and the next
    generation of Vista.

    >
    > But "fresher" != "more useful".
    >


    Yes, agreed, but if I buy a new machine (again, in 2009 for me) it
    will have Vista. And maybe people will buy machines for the first
    time between now and then. As a MSFT shareholder I like the sound of
    that (cha-ching! $$$).

    > One hopes IBM's next generation of mainframes can in fact
    > run Windows Mainframe Edition, giving everyone massive
    > economies of scale --


    You're joking? Or is there really a WMEdition? I hope so.


    >
    > I should note that lemmings are reputed to toss
    > themselves off cliffs. (While the veracity of
    > this report is slightly questionable, this does
    > appear to be an observed behavior according to
    > http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.asp; however,
    > the intent is not to suicide, but to find additional,
    > unavailable habitat, and the poor animals eventually simply
    > drown; the effect has been adapted to a classic video game
    > released in early 1991.)


    I think it's an urban (or rural) legend, but an apt metaphore, like
    the ostritch's head in the sand.



    > Since when is Linux technically superior? Be specific
    > here! I've not even got into ADO yet, for instance.


    ADO is some framework for the net....it's in my ToDo list to study,
    for databases.

    > > Another company
    > > (actually several, including Amiga) comes to mind in this respect.
    > > Think differently for once.

    >
    > Commodore died because of bad marketing. Windows won't
    > have that problem, unless they totally bodge up their solution.
    >


    Yes. X-box is another MSFT plus BTW,

    > >
    > > Got it?
    > >
    > > Got Windows (TM)?
    > >

    >
    > I've got Windows. I wish I could shoot it at times, of course.
    >


    No OS is perfect, but one of the advantages of buying MSFT is that as
    the stock goes up you feel better, even while using the bloated crap-
    ware called Windows (for lack of a better OS). And I do intend to
    play around with Linux, which does have a future--with governments,
    etc, a niche market.

    RL


  11. Re: how's the weather in Greece ...

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, raylopez99

    wrote
    on Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:49:09 -0700
    <1193690949.032555.305210@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.c om>:
    >
    > The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    >
    >> >> And what, pray tell, defines a "real OS"?
    >> >>

    >
    >> This gets complicated. Windows might have the edge
    >> here...mostly because the default filesystem (NTFS) has
    >> a BTree. One could quibble about Linux inodes, though,
    >> and other Linux filesystems are available, some of which
    >> might have BTrees.

    >
    > OK, interesting. If BTrees are used NTFS is still too slow. Perhaps
    > BTrees for the file names, but not the data within the files. Maybe
    > that was the contribution of the homicidal nerd I read about.


    The NTFS BTree key is the file name, AFAIK. The actual file
    is a blob of data blocks, and I don't know the details on
    the representation thereof offhand.

    >
    >> >>
    >> >> [2] Memory management. Both provide virtual memory,
    >> >> and can map files into virtual memory; the process
    >> >> thinks it's reading memory with the kernel handling
    >> >> the page faults, reading the file on its behalf.
    >> >
    >> > OK, makes sense. So a tie here.

    >>
    >> Absent further information on Windows extras. I've
    >> forgotten how VMS handles this issue. Apollo DOMAIN
    >> DomainOS (nee Aegis) treated every memory region as
    >> a temporary file, IINM.

    >
    >
    >> >>
    >> >> [3] Video. Both handle video, and various problems
    >> >> relating thereto such as drawing windows, digital
    >> >> rights management, and codecs.
    >> >
    >> > Tie.

    >>
    >> Not quite. Windows has an edge because of Windows
    >> Media Player. This is a definite victory for Windows.
    >>

    >
    > If you say so. I would think there's a freeware Linux Media Player,
    > and the .VOP format / codec for WMP can't be that superior.


    WMP is in fact superior because many record companies use it.
    In this case, it's not a technical point, but a marketing one.

    >
    >> >
    >> >>
    >> >> [4] Audio. Both handle audio, MIDI, and synthesis.
    >> >
    >> > Tie.

    >>
    >> A slight advantage for Windows, mostly because Linux audio
    >> is still in flux as of this writing.

    >
    > Interesting.


    Painful is more like it. I for one am not happy with mic
    handling right now. The actual audio output is a little
    squirrely in spots as well, though I'm not sure if that's
    an actual audio problem or a library problem or a library
    configuration problem. Briefly put, most of my output
    audio works fine, but the miking is shot to hell on a bad
    day, and the openAlsa library wants to muddle things for
    some reason.

    >
    >
    >> >> [5] Network packet communications. The full specification
    >> >> of network communications could probably hold books,
    >> >> but suffice it to say both OSes handle TCP/IP, and
    >> >> higher-level protocols like SMTP (email), HTTP, and
    >> >> FTP. Windows further implements SOAP, though add-on
    >> >> packages for Linux are also available.
    >> >
    >> > Uh huh, right, something about the OSI model comes to mind here, but
    >> > it's not my field. A tie.

    >>
    >> Windows was at one point the more rigorous implementation
    >> -- but that was back in the 3.1 timeframe, and TCP/IP
    >> stacks on DOS were a mess. Linux wins here by a smidge,
    >> because its stack is from all reports slightly better
    >> from a reliability standpoint; however, both protocol
    >> stacks have the same config options, and most Windows
    >> installations have NAT frontends or items such as F5's
    >> Big-IP handling the protection/networking, negating most
    >> of Linux's advantages, real or perceived.

    >
    > Understood nothing--you're talking to yourself again (you seem to like
    > that) but I trust your judgement on this issue.


    To put it metaphorically:

    If a castle is surrounded by a wide enough moat and the
    attacking army has no proper siege equipment, cannon,
    or riflery, it matters little whether the walls of
    the castle are the highest quality riveted molybdenum
    steel, the finest mortared stone, a pile of sticks with
    interweaved rope, or rags of tissue paper; the people
    within the castle are perfectly safe.

    NAT is a moat, and a pretty good one too; the only possible
    attacks involve already open connections (bridges, in
    our metaphor -- or perhaps slides from the top of the
    castle crenellations). On a more technical front, a NAT
    router consumes the packet entire (I'd have to look to see
    what it does with fragmented packets) and retransmits it
    substituting its outgoing IP address for the incoming one,
    and recording the incoming IP address so that a return
    packet from a server will be directed back to the right
    place.

    As for F5's Big-IP hardware -- I'll refer you to F5's
    documentation for the details thereof. There are other
    vendors such as Barracuda that have similar capabilities.

    >
    >> >
    >> >>
    >> >> [6] Drag and drop. Strictly speaking, this is more related
    >> >> to the GUI than the OS, but both Linux and Windows
    >> >> implement some variant of dragging an icon and then
    >> >> dropping it into a window. (In Linux's case, however,
    >> >> the D&D is handled by a higher level: KDE or Gnome.)
    >> >
    >> > Interesting--KDE or Gnome seems to be not part of the OS but some sort
    >> > of addon. No big deal; a tie.

    >>
    >> Actually, no; Windows wins here for obvious reasons.
    >> Bear in mind that Linux qua Linux can't even *boot*
    >> (/sbin/init or /bin/sh is required; check the source
    >> code near the bottom in main.c if you don't believe me).
    >> I've pointed this out in #8 below.

    >
    > Yes, apparently an add-on. Can't believe Windows is much better
    > though, but I trust your judgement.


    Well, /bin/sh is an add-on to Linux, yes; Windows wins here
    because it is a reasonably complete solution. The rough
    equivalent of Windows in Linuxland is Linux + X + Gnome
    or Linux + X + KDE, and even then I don't know if
    Linux + X + Gnome is complete enough (mostly because it's
    not clear where gedit fits in), and Linux + X + Gnome may
    be missing a browser without additional code (Epiphany is a
    Gecko derivative, and Gecko is not part of Gnome, really).

    Contrariwise, Windows has IE in every installation.

    >
    >>
    >> Linux also borrowed the Win95 innovation of putting the
    >> framing icons (iconify, maximize, close) at the upper
    >> right. Prior to about Win95 the close was at the
    >> upper *left*.
    >>

    >
    > Copyright infringment--the MSFT software patent trolls are coming to
    > get ya!


    The three concepts are quite different.

    Trade secrets: Microsoft writes some C code. I get a copy
    of that C code somehow, and put it into my system.

    Copyright: Microsoft writes some C code, and publishes it,
    with appropriate copyright headers and license.
    I get a copy of that C code and put it into my system,
    claiming that it's mine or otherwise violating the
    license -- e.g., a non-disclosure agreement.

    Patent: Microsoft patents an algorithm and implements
    some C code. I implement the same algorithm in Pascal
    and put it into my system.

    All are in violation, but for different reasons.

    >
    >> >

    >> No, Windows wins *again* here; IE is part of Windows.
    >> Opera, Lynx, Firefox, Kahehakase, Galeon, Epiphany,
    >> and Konqueror are *not* part of Linux (although they are
    >> offered by most distros).
    >>

    >
    > Interesting.


    Hadn't that occurred to you? It's one of the keys to
    Linux's flexibility -- but one has to be very careful not
    to confuse the Linux *kernel* with an arbitrary Linux
    *distro*. There's only one kernel but there are 350+
    distros -- and the number increases daily, though most of
    the new ones are relatively unknown.

    Just to increase the fun, many distros include patches to
    the kernel, modifying it conceptually.

    >
    >> So far...Windows +3 outright victories, +2 technical
    >> victories. Linux: +1 technical victory, +1 reliability
    >> victory.
    >>
    >> >
    >> >>
    >> >> There's a few more but this post runs overlong already.
    >> >
    >> > Right.
    >> >>
    >> >> So go ahead; sell me on Windows and its "real OS" capabilities.
    >> >> If nothing else, I need the exercise in tearing your arguments
    >> >> into ragged shreds. :-P
    >> >
    >> > You left out the BIGGEST REASON for using Windoze. It was a reason
    >> > that was litigated in court, and vetted by high-powered lawyers making
    >> > $500 an hour, so it must be true (or at least hard to refute). And it
    >> > was made by the ENEMIES of MSFT. You know what that reason is?
    >> >
    >> > Answer: using Windows guarantees that 85-90% (depending on who's
    >> > counting)

    >>
    >> 97%+ percent Windows as of one accounting -- I'd have
    >> to find it. Dual-boots complicate things, but a lot of
    >> Apple Macs run Windows in a VmWare-like offering; a lot
    >> of Linux setups are dual boots. Servers are more varied,
    >> but presumably Windows would win there, too -- except
    >> that the IT guys haven't discovered that integration of
    >> a Windows-Windows solution (using .NET) is superior to a
    >> Linux-Linux, MacOSX-Linux, Linux-MacOSX, MacOSX-MaxOSX,
    >> Windows-Linux, or Linux-Windows solution.
    >>
    >> (This is, of course, on the desktop; mobiles have a more
    >> varied market, with Symbian taking the lion's share.)
    >>
    >> Remember, IIS supports everything IE can throw at it, and
    >> ActiveX is a powerful (some say too powerful) solution that
    >> can do anything on the user's box that the server requires.
    >>
    >> Of course, there are other issues which are "softer".
    >> One problem, for instance, is which solution is faster,
    >> and since Linux is clearly *not* the solution here, one
    >> has to specify additional parameters -- e.g., Linux/Gentoo,
    >> Linux/Fedora, Linux/Damn Small Linux -- in other words, the
    >> "distro explosion" problem. Not that Windows doesn't have
    >> a somewhat similar problem; there are now 9 Vista editions
    >> one can choose from, with differing capabilities, and none
    >> of which are appropriate for the server side. I have no
    >> idea how many server variants there are, but those should
    >> be considered as well, especially since they are going to
    >> be on the other side of the client-server problem.
    >>
    >> Other issues include power consumption, general system
    >> reliability, general extensibility, and cost. However,
    >> the IDC report's conclusions are very very clear (if the
    >> premises thereof are questionable): Linux does not win in
    >> the TCO category.

    >
    > TCO is what TLA? Total Cost Ownership? Clearly Linux loses there.


    Total Cost of Onwership, as defined by the IDC report.
    Presumably, this includes initial machine acquisition,
    initial software license fee, installation costs,
    maintenance costs, power costs, and personnell costs.

    >
    >>
    >> Windows is advancing in the service area, and we will
    >> (presumably!) ultimately see the economies of scale that
    >> are so badly needed in the server arena, especially
    >> if Microsoft sets up a proper UDDI[*] server to find
    >> business solutions. Unfortunately, Vista was a bit of
    >> a setback on the desktop, and Microsoft's not exactly
    >> generating a lot of good press. To be fair, Microsoft
    >> seems to be recovering, but they do have the problem of
    >> an oversaturated market; Linux is "fresher" and therefore
    >> more interesting to some.

    >
    > Yes, I'm holding off Vista until 2009--by that time they'll have a 64
    > bit and/or parallel processor version of Office and the next
    > generation of Vista.


    They already have a 64-bit version. 2 years for a "modern
    OS" is a bit long to wait, though it may depend on your
    current machine's capabilities as to whether you want Vista
    or not.

    >
    >>
    >> But "fresher" != "more useful".
    >>

    >
    > Yes, agreed, but if I buy a new machine (again, in 2009 for me) it
    > will have Vista. And maybe people will buy machines for the first
    > time between now and then. As a MSFT shareholder I like the sound of
    > that (cha-ching! $$$).


    It gets more interesting as well, as most machines will
    have Premium Edition. Premium Edition is missing some
    essential functionality for some applications; Ultimate
    Edition may have to be installed on those particular
    systems.

    Two licenses for the price of one.

    >
    >> One hopes IBM's next generation of mainframes can in fact
    >> run Windows Mainframe Edition, giving everyone massive
    >> economies of scale --

    >
    > You're joking? Or is there really a WMEdition? I hope so.


    Obviously, if Microsoft Windows is going to run on the
    client side, the whole idea is for it to interface with
    something that it likes -- and that would be Windows on the
    server side, a Windows Server OS base, SQL Server maybe,
    and IIS.

    >
    >
    >>
    >> I should note that lemmings are reputed to toss
    >> themselves off cliffs. (While the veracity of
    >> this report is slightly questionable, this does
    >> appear to be an observed behavior according to
    >> http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.asp; however,
    >> the intent is not to suicide, but to find additional,
    >> unavailable habitat, and the poor animals eventually simply
    >> drown; the effect has been adapted to a classic video game
    >> released in early 1991.)

    >
    > I think it's an urban (or rural) legend, but an apt metaphore, like
    > the ostritch's head in the sand.
    >
    >
    >
    >> Since when is Linux technically superior? Be specific
    >> here! I've not even got into ADO yet, for instance.

    >
    > ADO is some framework for the net....it's in my ToDo list to study,
    > for databases.


    I'll have to look up the details myself, but it allows for
    a tabular presentation of database rows; the rows can be
    sorted by clicking on the column. I do not know if the
    columns can be shuffled, though (Java allows that in its
    Swing JTable implementation).

    >
    >> > Another company
    >> > (actually several, including Amiga) comes to mind in this respect.
    >> > Think differently for once.

    >>
    >> Commodore died because of bad marketing. Windows won't
    >> have that problem, unless they totally bodge up their solution.
    >>

    >
    > Yes. X-box is another MSFT plus BTW,


    It works reasonably well, though I'm not sure what's going on regarding
    its overheating of late.

    >
    >> >
    >> > Got it?
    >> >
    >> > Got Windows (TM)?
    >> >

    >>
    >> I've got Windows. I wish I could shoot it at times, of course.
    >>

    >
    > No OS is perfect, but one of the advantages of buying MSFT is that as
    > the stock goes up you feel better, even while using the bloated crap-
    > ware called Windows (for lack of a better OS). And I do intend to
    > play around with Linux, which does have a future--with governments,
    > etc, a niche market.


    Linux does not have a future. Isn't that obvious?
    Why should governments use an inferior OS? They should
    use the absolute best OS out there. Why are *they*
    wasting *our* tax dollars on a solution that doesn't work?

    (To be fair, that sword cuts both ways.)

    >
    > RL
    >



    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    Error 16: Not enough space on file system to delete file(s)

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  12. Re: how's the weather in Greece ...

    On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:13:11 -0700, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

    > In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Kelsey Bjarnason
    >
    > wrote
    > on Sun, 28 Oct 2007 15:57:20 -0700
    > :
    >> [snips]
    >>
    >> On Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:27:21 -0700, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    >>
    >>> "640K ought to be enough for anybody."
    >>> - allegedly said by Bill Gates, 1981, but somebody had to make this up!

    >>
    >> Not necessarily. Recall, he did write "The obvious
    >> mathematical breakthrough would be development of an
    >> easy way to factor large prime numbers. "

    >
    > (Google suggests page 265 in _The Road Ahead_ for a variant
    > of this, erm, wisdom. I'm not about to buy me a copy. :-) )
    >
    >>
    >> Hmm. Here's an easy way: write down the large prime number
    >> and 1. Voila. Done. Just doesn't get much easier than that.

    >
    > Heh...not exactly the most cogent explicator of complicated
    > math subjects, is he? :-) Had he left out the "prime",
    > he'd have been all right.


    Factorization into large primes, perhaps, which is sorta the point. Not
    what he managed to get into his book.

    On a related note, I still get a chuckle every time I think of the talk
    show where Bill sat by while another guest was being interviewed - and
    this guy had created the CTRL-ALT-DEL sequence. His comment? "I invented
    it, but Bill made it famous."

    Much laughter, to be sure, but Bill looked like someone shot his pony.

  13. Re: how's the weather in Greece ...


    The Ghost In The Machine wrote:

    Thanks Ghost, as I wrote in another post that seemed to have been lost
    in the ether, you are quite the polymath and informative.

    >
    > Linux does not have a future. Isn't that obvious?
    > Why should governments use an inferior OS? They should
    > use the absolute best OS out there. Why are *they*
    > wasting *our* tax dollars on a solution that doesn't work?
    >
    >


    I will be the Devils Advocate and argue that Linux has a future in
    Apache (if IIS or whatever MSFT equivalent doesn't win out), and MSFT
    helps Linux when they push authentication of Windows too hard--since
    people in government who don't want to pay royalties will switch to
    Linux for those boxes that don't require the full blown capabilities
    of Windows. THen there's online "cloud computing" via Google Apps or
    equivalents--if Linux OS can get you on the net then you're good to
    go. And regarding Windows there's always Apple OS as a substitute,
    which is gaining traction.

    RL


  14. Re: how's the weather in Greece ...

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, raylopez99

    wrote
    on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 04:01:20 -0700
    <1193742080.201985.184610@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups. com>:
    >
    > The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
    >
    > Thanks Ghost, as I wrote in another post that seemed to have been lost
    > in the ether, you are quite the polymath and informative.
    >
    >>
    >> Linux does not have a future. Isn't that obvious?
    >> Why should governments use an inferior OS? They should
    >> use the absolute best OS out there. Why are *they*
    >> wasting *our* tax dollars on a solution that doesn't work?
    >>
    >>

    >
    > I will be the Devils Advocate and argue that Linux has a future in
    > Apache (if IIS or whatever MSFT equivalent doesn't win out),


    Why wouldn't it?

    Be specific. Bear in mind IIS6 can run PHP and Python as
    well, *and* has access to ODBC. Also IIS has been gaining
    in the last few months according to Netcraft:

    http://news.netcraft.com/archives/we...er_survey.html

    As you can see, IIS has taken quite a jump in the last
    6 months or so, and has almost equaled Apache -- 47.73%
    to 37.13% as of October. (To be fair, Google's webserver
    has taken a bit of a jump as well, and both are eating
    into Apache's market share.)

    Whether this is because IIS is actually better, because
    Microsoft is aggressively selling IIS, because Microsoft
    has registered domains like crazy or acquired more
    GoDaddy's, or because Microsoft zombies are being counted
    as IIS (unlikely but possible!), I can't tell.

    > and MSFT
    > helps Linux when they push authentication of Windows too hard--since
    > people in government who don't want to pay royalties will switch to
    > Linux for those boxes that don't require the full blown capabilities
    > of Windows.


    Then people need to wake up and read the IDC study.

    http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/docs/TCO.pdf

    Most of the cost advantages for Windows are in Windows file
    sharing and Windows printing, but all rows in Table 1 show
    Windows as being cheaper. The IDC study does acknowledge
    that Windows uptime is 99.995% versus Linux's 99.998% --
    so neither one quite made the "5 9's", but it's clear
    which one is closer. Table 3 indicates a lot of Linux
    expertise is outsourced -- a peculiarity -- and that apart
    from networking Linux staffing is more expensive across
    the board, with staffing and downtime being the bulk of
    the costs except for Security and Web, where staffing is
    almost all of the costs.

    (There is a counter study thanks to:
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/12...ss_than_linux/

    http://www-03.ibm.com/linux/RFG-Linu...AL-Jul2002.pdf

    This study uses a three-way: Linux, Solaris, and Windows,
    and doesn't go into quite as much detail -- 8 vs. 24 pages.
    Solaris comes off very badly for some reason.)

    Windows is purportedly *cheaper*. (Unless one counts the
    viruses, perhaps; of course those are easily counterable
    via use of a NAT router. Phishing and pharming are a
    slightly different matter. Neither report goes into much
    detail regarding delousing, although IDC does break out
    "security". Take all of these with a big grain of salt.)

    > THen there's online "cloud computing" via Google Apps or
    > equivalents--if Linux OS can get you on the net then you're good to
    > go. And regarding Windows there's always Apple OS as a substitute,
    > which is gaining traction.


    You mean MacOSX, and that's not a substitute if one has
    a large number of Windows-specific applications, unless
    one buys some XP licenses. (Vista cannot legally be run
    under an emulator for some reason. Some applications
    might run under WinE.)

    >
    > RL
    >


    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of
    elderberries!" - Monty Python and the Holy Grail

    --
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