From the horse's mouth - Linux

This is a discussion on From the horse's mouth - Linux ; After takin' a swig o' grog, Kier belched out this bit o' wisdom: >> Except for one thing. He is full of it. He sounds like one of those >> trolls who boots to a live CD now and then ...

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Thread: From the horse's mouth

  1. Re: From the horse's mouth

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Kier belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    >> Except for one thing. He is full of it. He sounds like one of those
    >> trolls who boots to a live CD now and then to pick up some good FUD.

    >
    > Come on Lino, I thought you were a man of sense. The quotes are not all
    > teh article contains, and it's a useful guide about how to reinstall
    > Linux without losing data or configurations.


    Look, I have no access to the article. I'm simply responding to DFS's
    quote.

    >> Whoever reads that mag should write back to disabuse this idiot of his
    >> idiocy.

    >
    > Maybe you'd do better to read the article before calling the man an idiot,
    > since all of the above quotes are perfectly true. As good as it is, Linux
    > can and will break sometimes, usually for some of the reasons stated above.


    Except that most of what he said is manifestly /not/ true.

    Most of the time, it takes real idiocy to break a package-managed
    system.

    --
    Tux rox!

  2. Re: From the horse's mouth

    After takin' a swig o' grog, DFS belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > Don't take it too hard. So installing 3rd party software on Linux can make
    > it insecure and unstable, and break the dependency database, and distro
    > upgrades often fail, and a full reinstall is best, and Linux users shuffle
    > distros? cola knew all that long before I posted it.


    No. It is all /bull****/, in general. Like I said, at leat 80%
    /bull****/.

    Go back to the 90's dude.

    --
    Tux rox!

  3. Re: From the horse's mouth

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Kier belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:11:39 -0400, DFS wrote:
    >>
    >> Don't take it too hard. So installing 3rd party software on Linux can make
    >> it insecure and unstable, and break the dependency database, and distro
    >> upgrades often fail, and a full reinstall is best, and Linux users shuffle
    >> distros? cola knew all that long before I posted it.

    >
    > What you missed out is that fact that none of this is a huge problem with
    > Linux, precisely because you can upgrade or reinstall it, often without
    > even needing to touch your home directory. And Linux users don't need to
    > worry about begging MS for permission to use their PC just because
    > they've done a clean reinstall


    And, in fact, most of the bullet points DFS quoted are /rare events/.

    When the magazine and DFS make it appear that they are chronic problems,
    well that is simply /bull****/.

    > And exactly what is wrong with enjoying using various distros? SOme users
    > like doing that, some don't (my brother doesn't, he's always stuck to Red
    > Hat/Fedora/CentOS while I like a change now and then).


    But but but, DFS's article writer said all users constantly switch
    distros!!!!

    > As always, you don't really understand what it is you're complaining about.


    He's like the American dude who thinks that he, as an outsider, can
    legitimately complain about a culture in which he does not live. And
    then he's surprised when his statements are greeted with deserved
    derision.

    --
    Tux rox!

  4. Re: From the horse's mouth

    Linonut :
    >
    > He's like the American dude who thinks that he, as an outsider, can
    > legitimately complain about a culture in which he does not live. And
    > then he's surprised when his statements are greeted with deserved
    > derision.


    If you can get Lewis Blacks broadway show, he has a few choice words for
    those kind of people.

    (You've never even been to Canada?!? Even drunk on a bet you make it to
    Canada!!)

    --
    SHOW ME THE WAY

    http://www.websterscafe.com

  5. Re: From the horse's mouth

    Linonut wrote:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Kier belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >>> Except for one thing. He is full of it. He sounds like one of those
    >>> trolls who boots to a live CD now and then to pick up some good FUD.

    >>
    >> Come on Lino, I thought you were a man of sense. The quotes are not all
    >> teh article contains, and it's a useful guide about how to reinstall
    >> Linux without losing data or configurations.

    >
    > Look, I have no access to the article. I'm simply responding to DFS's
    > quote.
    >
    >>> Whoever reads that mag should write back to disabuse this idiot of his
    >>> idiocy.

    >>
    >> Maybe you'd do better to read the article before calling the man an
    >> idiot, since all of the above quotes are perfectly true. As good as it
    >> is, Linux can and will break sometimes, usually for some of the reasons
    >> stated above.

    >
    > Except that most of what he said is manifestly /not/ true.
    >
    > Most of the time, it takes real idiocy to break a package-managed
    > system.


    And from the incompetence that DooFu$ has shown in the past, he's the right
    idiot for *that* job.

    --
    Operating systems: FreeBSD 6.2, PC-BSD 1.4,
    Testing: FreeBSD 7.0
    Linux systems: Debian 4.0, PCLinuxOS 2007,
    (K)Ubuntu 7.04. Testing: Ubuntu 7.10 "Gutsy" beta

  6. Re: From the horse's mouth

    Linonut wrote:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Kier belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:11:39 -0400, DFS wrote:
    >>>
    >>> Don't take it too hard. So installing 3rd party software on Linux can
    >>> make it insecure and unstable, and break the dependency database, and
    >>> distro upgrades often fail, and a full reinstall is best, and Linux
    >>> users shuffle
    >>> distros? cola knew all that long before I posted it.

    >>
    >> What you missed out is that fact that none of this is a huge problem with
    >> Linux, precisely because you can upgrade or reinstall it, often without
    >> even needing to touch your home directory. And Linux users don't need to
    >> worry about begging MS for permission to use their PC just because
    >> they've done a clean reinstall

    >
    > And, in fact, most of the bullet points DFS quoted are /rare events/.


    Very rare, IMO.

    > When the magazine and DFS make it appear that they are chronic problems,
    > well that is simply /bull****/.


    I read the article, & quite frankly it looked like it was written by a
    newbie.

    >> And exactly what is wrong with enjoying using various distros? SOme users
    >> like doing that, some don't (my brother doesn't, he's always stuck to Red
    >> Hat/Fedora/CentOS while I like a change now and then).

    >
    > But but but, DFS's article writer said all users constantly switch
    > distros!!!!


    Which is bull****.
    Newbies may do to start with, until they find a distro they like & settle
    with. But IMO the majority of "old hands" stay with a distro for years.
    Of course they may (like me) have a few distros on their machines, to test
    or see how they compare to their main OS.

    >> As always, you don't really understand what it is you're complaining
    >> about.

    >
    > He's like the American dude who thinks that he, as an outsider, can
    > legitimately complain about a culture in which he does not live. And
    > then he's surprised when his statements are greeted with deserved
    > derision.


    Quite.

    --
    Operating systems: FreeBSD 6.2, PC-BSD 1.4,
    Testing: FreeBSD 7.0
    Linux systems: Debian 4.0, PCLinuxOS 2007,
    (K)Ubuntu 7.04. Testing: Ubuntu 7.10 "Gutsy" beta

  7. Re: From the horse's mouth

    On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:40:00 +0000, Linonut wrote:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Kier belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >>> Except for one thing. He is full of it. He sounds like one of those
    >>> trolls who boots to a live CD now and then to pick up some good FUD.

    >>
    >> Come on Lino, I thought you were a man of sense. The quotes are not all
    >> teh article contains, and it's a useful guide about how to reinstall
    >> Linux without losing data or configurations.

    >
    > Look, I have no access to the article. I'm simply responding to DFS's
    > quote.


    Which, though accurate in themselves, are not the entirety of the article.

    >
    >>> Whoever reads that mag should write back to disabuse this idiot of his
    >>> idiocy.

    >>
    >> Maybe you'd do better to read the article before calling the man an idiot,
    >> since all of the above quotes are perfectly true. As good as it is, Linux
    >> can and will break sometimes, usually for some of the reasons stated above.

    >
    > Except that most of what he said is manifestly /not/ true.


    Sorry, but I don't agree. It does happen. Not to all users, but certainly
    to quite a few. It's happened to me with older versions of Mandrake, and
    with Mepis on two occasions. It's not that big a deal, though, because
    Linux is usually very easy to reinstall if that's what you want to do -
    and the article is mostly about the best and most efficient way to do that.

    >
    > Most of the time, it takes real idiocy to break a package-managed
    > system.


    Not if you go outside the regular packages and mess about with stuff,
    tinker, compile, add third-party progs, etc, as many Linux users are apt
    to do.

    --
    Kier


  8. Re: From the horse's mouth

    On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:45:46 +0000, Linonut wrote:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Kier belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:11:39 -0400, DFS wrote:
    >>>
    >>> Don't take it too hard. So installing 3rd party software on Linux can make
    >>> it insecure and unstable, and break the dependency database, and distro
    >>> upgrades often fail, and a full reinstall is best, and Linux users shuffle
    >>> distros? cola knew all that long before I posted it.

    >>
    >> What you missed out is that fact that none of this is a huge problem with
    >> Linux, precisely because you can upgrade or reinstall it, often without
    >> even needing to touch your home directory. And Linux users don't need to
    >> worry about begging MS for permission to use their PC just because
    >> they've done a clean reinstall

    >
    > And, in fact, most of the bullet points DFS quoted are /rare events/.


    That depends on the users in question. Some people do thier install and
    don't do anything to it afterwards, don't tinker, don't stray outside the
    official repositories, and some do exactly the opposite. And with the
    latter group, something may eventually break. So what? Linux is much
    easier to fix.

    >
    > When the magazine and DFS make it appear that they are chronic problems,
    > well that is simply /bull****/.


    No, the *magazine* doesn't. It says they happen to a lot of us, but that's
    hardly a big deal. Why are Linux advocates so frightened to admit this?

    >
    >> And exactly what is wrong with enjoying using various distros? Some
    >> users like doing that, some don't (my brother doesn't, he's always
    >> stuck to Red Hat/Fedora/CentOS while I like a change now and then).

    >
    > But but but, DFS's article writer said all users constantly switch
    > distros!!!!


    No, he didn't. That's why I said you should read the article.



    --
    Kier

  9. Re: From the horse's mouth

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Kier belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:40:00 +0000, Linonut wrote:
    >>
    >> Look, I have no access to the article. I'm simply responding to DFS's
    >> quote.

    >
    > Which, though accurate in themselves, are not the entirety of the article.


    Indeed.

    >> Except that most of what he said is manifestly /not/ true.

    >
    > Sorry, but I don't agree. It does happen. Not to all users, but certainly
    > to quite a few. It's happened to me with older versions of Mandrake, and
    > with Mepis on two occasions. It's not that big a deal, though, because
    > Linux is usually very easy to reinstall if that's what you want to do -
    > and the article is mostly about the best and most efficient way to do that.


    I haven't had any of that kind of trouble since Red Hat 7 and the
    new-glibc two-step.

    Even changing over from XFree86 to Xorg was a piece of cake (on Gentoo).

    >> Most of the time, it takes real idiocy to break a package-managed
    >> system.

    >
    > Not if you go outside the regular packages and mess about with stuff,
    > tinker, compile, add third-party progs, etc, as many Linux users are apt
    > to do.


    I disagree. "Mess about" is one thing. Compiling and installing
    third-party apps? No way.

    Hint: /usr and /usr/local

    --
    Tux rox!

  10. Re: From the horse's mouth

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Kier belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:45:46 +0000, Linonut wrote:
    >>
    >> And, in fact, most of the bullet points DFS quoted are /rare events/.

    >
    > That depends on the users in question. Some people do thier install and
    > don't do anything to it afterwards, don't tinker, don't stray outside the
    > official repositories, and some do exactly the opposite. And with the
    > latter group, something may eventually break.


    Now you get it. May... eventually... break.

    In other words, rare.

    > So what? Linux is much
    > easier to fix.
    >
    >> When the magazine and DFS make it appear that they are chronic problems,
    >> well that is simply /bull****/.

    >
    > No, the *magazine* doesn't. It says they happen to a lot of us, but that's
    > hardly a big deal. Why are Linux advocates so frightened to admit this?


    Because it is /bull****/. It doesn't happen "to a lot of us".

    --
    Tux rox!

  11. Re: From the horse's mouth

    On Oct 15, 12:03 pm, William Poaster wrote:
    > Linonut wrote:
    > > After takin' a swig o' grog, Kier belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    >
    > >> On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:11:39 -0400, DFS wrote:

    >
    > >>> Don't take it too hard. So installing 3rd party software on Linux can
    > >>> make it insecure and unstable, and break the dependency database, and
    > >>> distro upgrades often fail, and a full reinstall is best, and Linux
    > >>> users shuffle
    > >>> distros? cola knew all that long before I posted it.

    >
    > >> What you missed out is that fact that none of this is a huge problem with
    > >> Linux, precisely because you can upgrade or reinstall it, often without
    > >> even needing to touch your home directory. And Linux users don't need to
    > >> worry about begging MS for permission to use their PC just because
    > >> they've done a clean reinstall

    >
    > > And, in fact, most of the bullet points DFS quoted are /rare events/.

    >
    > Very rare, IMO.
    >
    > > When the magazine and DFS make it appear that they are chronic problems,
    > > well that is simply /bull****/.

    >
    > I read the article, & quite frankly it looked like it was written by a
    > newbie.
    >


    If it was written by a newbie then that means there is some work to do
    to make Linux better for newbies. Was the author intentionally
    misleading people? Ask yourself why he wrote the article. It obviously
    wasn't to slag Linux because he's paid by Microsoft. It was his
    experience and his perceptions. So you can sit around and call it
    bull**** all you want, but some change has to be made or articles like
    this will continue to be written.


  12. Re: From the horse's mouth

    Linonut wrote:


    > Except that most of what he said is manifestly /not/ true.


    Then you're accusing him of lying, and the magazine's editorial staff of
    compounding the lie.



    > Most of the time, it takes real idiocy to break a package-managed
    > system.


    He's talking about the potential effects of installing outside the package
    manager.



  13. Re: From the horse's mouth

    Kier wrote:

    > What you missed out is that fact that none of this is a huge problem
    > with Linux, precisely because you can upgrade or reinstall it, often
    > without even needing to touch your home directory.


    Tell it to Kelsey Bjarnason. His 13gb home folder was massacred by an
    attempted Fedora Core install.


    > And Linux users
    > don't need to worry about begging MS for permission to use their PC
    > just because they've done a clean reinstall


    Though you do have to beg Novell for permission to get updates to the
    product you already purchased:
    http://support.novell.com/techcenter...ctivation.html



    > And exactly what is wrong with enjoying using various distros? SOme
    > users like doing that, some don't (my brother doesn't, he's always
    > stuck to Red Hat/Fedora/CentOS while I like a change now and then).


    Nothing at all wrong with trying distros - it's interesting in fact and I've
    tried about 10 myself - but cola claims the term "distro shuffle" was made
    up by "trolls" and it's not a common thing. But it is.



    > As always, you don't really understand what it is you're complaining
    > about.


    I understand it all perfectly well - at least as well as you - and I wasn't
    complaining (matter of fact it's probably easier to reinstall Linux and
    personal settings than doing the same in Windows). I just found it amusing
    to see a Linux writer speaking the truth about Linux problems; that's not
    something you see very often. Kudos to him, and to you for not denying it
    like Linonutjob.




  14. Re: From the horse's mouth

    On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 21:32:56 -0400, DFS wrote:

    > Linonut wrote:
    >
    >
    >> Except that most of what he said is manifestly /not/ true.

    >
    > Then you're accusing him of lying, and the magazine's editorial staff of
    > compounding the lie.


    Are you asking a question or making a statement?

    >
    >
    >
    >> Most of the time, it takes real idiocy to break a package-managed
    >> system.

    >
    > He's talking about the potential effects of installing outside the
    > package manager.


    If you don't know what you are doing, don't install outside of the
    manager.

    --
    Rick

  15. Re: From the horse's mouth

    Linonut wrote:

    > I disagree. "Mess about" is one thing. Compiling and installing
    > third-party apps? No way.
    >
    > Hint: /usr and /usr/local


    How does that help? Isn't /usr where most packages are installed in the
    first place? Won't compiling and installing to /usr, without using your
    package manager, possibly overwrite libraries and break dependencies already
    established for versions in /usr/lib and /usr/bin?

    (note: don't start screaming "You're stupid Doofus!" I'm asking, not
    telling)




  16. Re: From the horse's mouth

    DFS wrote:

    > Linonut wrote:
    >
    >> I disagree. "Mess about" is one thing. Compiling and installing
    >> third-party apps? No way.
    >>
    >> Hint: /usr and /usr/local

    >
    > How does that help? Isn't /usr where most packages are installed in the
    > first place? Won't compiling and installing to /usr, without using your
    > package manager, possibly overwrite libraries and break dependencies
    > already established for versions in /usr/lib and /usr/bin?
    >
    > (note: don't start screaming "You're stupid Doofus!" I'm asking, not
    > telling)


    Why don't you simply write "I know absolutely nothing about linux" as first
    sentence of your post? It would explain clueless stuff like this last post
    of yours
    --
    Another name for a Windows tutorial is crash course


  17. Re: From the horse's mouth

    DFS did eloquently scribble:
    > Kier wrote:


    >> What you missed out is that fact that none of this is a huge problem
    >> with Linux, precisely because you can upgrade or reinstall it, often
    >> without even needing to touch your home directory.


    > Tell it to Kelsey Bjarnason. His 13gb home folder was massacred by an
    > attempted Fedora Core install.


    Even IF that's true, all it means is he made a rather large booboo during
    partitioning.

    Human error can not be blamed on a linux distro.
    --
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    | spike1@freenet.co.uk | Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
    | | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
    |Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
    | in |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
    | Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  18. Re: From the horse's mouth

    DFS did eloquently scribble:
    > Linonut wrote:


    >> I disagree. "Mess about" is one thing. Compiling and installing
    >> third-party apps? No way.
    >>
    >> Hint: /usr and /usr/local


    > How does that help? Isn't /usr where most packages are installed in the
    > first place? Won't compiling and installing to /usr, without using your
    > package manager, possibly overwrite libraries and break dependencies already
    > established for versions in /usr/lib and /usr/bin?


    But you DON'T compile and install to /usr
    That's the whole ****in point!
    Compiled programs go in /usr/local. They do not touch files installed by the
    package manager unless explicitely ordered by the user whilst doing the
    ../configure stage.

    Gonna blame the distro if the user mashes his install by using
    ../configure --prefix /usr
    all the time?
    --
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    | spike1@freenet.co.uk | Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
    | | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
    |Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
    | in |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
    | Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

  19. Re: From the horse's mouth

    High Plains Thumper wrote:

    > Gregory Shearman wrote:
    >
    >> My gentoo boxes have never been reinstalled.

    >
    > I kept my SuSE 6.4 Linux/KDE installation/partition for several
    > years. The downloaded patches from YaST continued just fine,
    > very user friendly. It even survived a crapped out Ampro PM9900
    > mobo and AMD 450 MHz K6-2 processor. I replaced it with a Slot-1
    > Pentium Celeron 333 MHz mobo. Did some minor hardware
    > redetecting after booting from same partition, continued another
    > year in that configuration, no reloading the OS.


    I've had to migrate to a new HD on one machine, after it started to fail.
    With LVM it is easy.



    --
    Regards,

    Gregory.
    Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

  20. Re: From the horse's mouth

    spike1@freenet.co.uk wrote:

    > DFS did eloquently scribble:
    >> Kier wrote:

    >
    >>> What you missed out is that fact that none of this is a huge problem
    >>> with Linux, precisely because you can upgrade or reinstall it, often
    >>> without even needing to touch your home directory.

    >
    >> Tell it to Kelsey Bjarnason. His 13gb home folder was massacred by an
    >> attempted Fedora Core install.

    >
    > Even IF that's true, all it means is he made a rather large booboo during
    > partitioning.
    >
    > Human error can not be blamed on a linux distro.


    Quite. The thing is about a linux distro is that you are *supposed* to know
    what you're doing. Unlike windoze, which apparently asks if you're
    *sure* "you want to do something" for the umpteenth time, GNU/Linux expects
    that you will have read & learnt *something* about the OS. However, human
    errors can still creep in.....but that can happen in the installation of
    *any* OS. Or is Doofu$ going to claim it doesn't in windows.

    --
    Operating systems: FreeBSD 6.2, PC-BSD 1.4,
    Testing: FreeBSD 7.0
    Linux systems: Debian 4.0, PCLinuxOS 2007,
    (K)Ubuntu 7.04. Testing: Ubuntu 7.10 "Gutsy" beta

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