Who "owns" =?UTF-8?B?TGludXjCrj8=?= - Linux

This is a discussion on Who "owns" =?UTF-8?B?TGludXjCrj8=?= - Linux ; This is a spawn of Roy's posting about Openoffice & Symphony. The article by Bruce Byfield states, "Available for both GNU/Linux and Windows XP and Vista..." It seemed to me that Symphony was only available for a small subset of ...

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Thread: Who "owns" =?UTF-8?B?TGludXjCrj8=?=

  1. Who "owns" =?UTF-8?B?TGludXjCrj8=?=

    This is a spawn of Roy's posting about Openoffice & Symphony. The article by
    Bruce Byfield states, "Available for both GNU/Linux and Windows XP and
    Vista..." It seemed to me that Symphony was only available for a small
    subset of Linux distros so I went back and checked the Symphony system
    requirements. Here they are:

    Lotus Symphony supports both Microsoft Windows® and Linux® platforms.

    Note: Be sure your system meets these client system requirements:

    * Supported Windows platforms: Windows XP, Windows Vista
    * Supported Linux platforms: SLED 10, RHEL 5, Redhat5
    * 750MB disk space minimum on Linux and 540M on Windows
    * 512MB RAM memory minimum
    * US English locale
    So Byfield's statement is a bit misleading. But what astonished me was the
    registered trademark symbol after Linux used by IBM. Who owns the Linux
    brand name? Was this an error?!?
    Attila
    --
    Registerd Linux user #445917 at http://counter.li.org/

  2. Re: Who "owns" Linux«?


    "Attila" wrote in message
    news:fe5kj7$1rf$1@registered.motzarella.org...
    > This is a spawn of Roy's posting about Openoffice & Symphony. The article
    > by
    > Bruce Byfield states, "Available for both GNU/Linux and Windows XP and
    > Vista..." It seemed to me that Symphony was only available for a small
    > subset of Linux distros so I went back and checked the Symphony system
    > requirements. Here they are:
    >
    > Lotus Symphony supports both Microsoft Windows« and Linux« platforms.
    >
    > Note: Be sure your system meets these client system requirements:
    >
    > * Supported Windows platforms: Windows XP, Windows Vista
    > * Supported Linux platforms: SLED 10, RHEL 5, Redhat5
    > * 750MB disk space minimum on Linux and 540M on Windows
    > * 512MB RAM memory minimum
    > * US English locale
    > So Byfield's statement is a bit misleading. But what astonished me was the
    > registered trademark symbol after Linux used by IBM. Who owns the Linux
    > brand name? Was this an error?!?
    > Attila


    Linus Torvalds owns the Linux trademark. He charges companies and annual fee
    in order to use the name "Linux."




    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  3. Re: Who "owns" =?UTF-8?B?TGludXjCrj8=?=

    Verily I say unto thee, that Attila spake thusly:

    > what astonished me was the registered trademark symbol after Linux
    > used by IBM. Who owns the Linux brand name? Was this an error?!?


    http://www.linuxmark.org/

    --
    K.
    http://slated.org

    ..----
    | "OOXML is a superb standard"
    | - GNU/Linux traitor, Miguel de Icaza.
    `----

    Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.22.1-41.fc7
    16:33:50 up 57 days, 15:28, 2 users, load average: 0.37, 0.35, 0.17

  4. Re: Who "owns" =?UTF-8?B?TGludXiuPw==?=

    Barb Dwyer wrote:

    >


    >> So Byfield's statement is a bit misleading. But what astonished me was
    >> the registered trademark symbol after Linux used by IBM. Who owns the
    >> Linux brand name? Was this an error?!?
    >> Attila

    >
    > Linus Torvalds owns the Linux trademark. He charges companies and annual
    > fee in order to use the name "Linux."
    >

    Thanks Barb,
    Is this true for all "companies"? For example, does Debian pay him an annual
    fee? Or does he pick and choose who he charges?
    Attila

    --
    Registerd Linux user #445917 at http://counter.li.org/

  5. Re: Who "owns" Linux


    "Attila" wrote in message
    news:fe5m0a$6nk$2@registered.motzarella.org...
    > Barb Dwyer wrote:
    >
    >>

    >
    >>> So Byfield's statement is a bit misleading. But what astonished me was
    >>> the registered trademark symbol after Linux used by IBM. Who owns the
    >>> Linux brand name? Was this an error?!?
    >>> Attila

    >>
    >> Linus Torvalds owns the Linux trademark. He charges companies and annual
    >> fee in order to use the name "Linux."
    >>

    > Thanks Barb,
    > Is this true for all "companies"? For example, does Debian pay him an
    > annual
    > fee? Or does he pick and choose who he charges?


    I thought this was settled but a quick Google search shows that it's not.
    Here's a good article:

    http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news...le.php/3529246

    Red Hat, the number one Linux distributor, said it does not. Novell, the
    number two Linux distro, has a license but wouldn't publicly comment on
    whether it pays for it.

    Five years after Linus Torvalds and his supporters began to take steps to
    protect the Linux trademark, the issue has arisen again.

    Attorney Jeremy Malcolm has already contacted 90 Australian companies on
    behalf of Linus Torvalds in order to get them to obtain a license to use the
    Linux trademark. The letters have brought the issue to the forefront of the
    open source collective consciousness, yet again. "You may or may not be
    aware that it is your legal responsibility to obtain a license from the
    Linux Mark Institute before you are allowed to use the word 'Linux' as part
    of your product or service name or brand," the letter states.

    Linux trademark licensing is administered on behalf of Torvalds by the Linux
    Mark Institute (LMI). Fees range from $200 and go up to $5,000 for
    commercial firms with revenue greater than $1 million. It is important to
    note that the license is for vendors of Linux products to become a
    sub-licensee of the Linux trademark. It is not a license for users to use
    Linux (like SCOsource is advocating).




    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  6. Re: Who "owns" Linux?

    Attila wrote:

    >Barb Dwyer wrote:
    >>
    >> Linus Torvalds owns the Linux trademark. He charges companies and annual
    >> fee in order to use the name "Linux."
    >>

    >Thanks Barb,
    >Is this true for all "companies"? For example, does Debian pay him an annual
    >fee? Or does he pick and choose who he charges?


    Don't trust what a fsckwitted, trolling nym-shifter like "Barb" tells
    you.

    "approved sublicense holders pay no fees "

    http://www.linuxmark.org/


  7. Re: Who "owns" Linux


    Barb Dwyer wrote:
    [...]
    > Linux trademark licensing is administered on behalf of Torvalds by the Linux
    > Mark Institute (LMI). Fees range from $200 and go up to $5,000 for
    > commercial firms with revenue greater than $1 million. It is important to


    Over there in misc.int-property...

    -----
    Over in rec.games.chess.computer we recently had a discussion
    about trademark law.

    One poster referred to
    http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac...c/register.htm
    And opined that when it says:

    "You can establish rights in a mark based on legitimate
    use of the mark."

    this implies that your use of a mark only gives you the
    *possibility* of establishing rights with respect to that
    mark and that

    "Any time you claim rights in a mark..."

    implies that the rights do not exist until you claim them.

    Another poster referred to
    uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic/appcontent.htm#basis
    And argued that

    "the mark must appear on the goods, the container for the
    goods, or displays associated with the goods, and the
    goods must be sold or transported in commerce."

    ....says that the basis for a trademark is use in commerce,
    and does not mention any additional requiremt to explicitly
    say that it is a trademark.

    BACKGROUND:

    The particular case we were discussing was Linus Torvalds'
    Trademark on the word "Linux" as claimed in
    [ http://www.linuxmark.org/ ] ("This is the official website
    of the Linux Mark Institute, exclusive licensor of the Linux
    trademark on behalf of its owner, Linus Torvalds.").

    Timeline:

    Linus Torvalds created Linux in 1991. At that time and for
    years afterward he made no trademark claims.

    In 1994 one William R. Della Croce Jr. of Boston made what appears
    to be the first legal claim that "Linux" is a trademark -- one that
    he owns -- and in 1996 started demanding 10 percent royalties on
    sales from Linux vendors.

    In the resulting lawsuit, R. Della Croce's claim was nullified
    and the Linux trademark was legally assigned to Linus Torvalds
    (by settlement, not by court ruling).

    The question is, when did When did Linus Torvalds first own a
    trademark on the word "Linux?" Was it when the first disks
    were sold even though nobody at the time explicitly claimed
    that it was a trademark, or much later when Linus first claimed
    that it was a rtrademark?

    Also see:

    Petition to Cancel filed by Linus Torvalds and others:
    http://lwn.net/Articles/148228/ ].

    The Linux Trademark - Tempest in a Teapot
    http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s...50816092029989

    Jon "maddog" Hall on Linux Trademarks
    http://lists.linux.org.au/archives/l.../msg00084.html
    -----

    Now, from the 7th Circuit of the United States:

    1.) [FOSS contributors can't charge -- no software commerce] "Thus
    the GPL propagates from user to user and revision to revision:
    neither the original author, nor any creator of a revised or
    improved version, may charge for the software or allow any
    successor to charge. ... Linux and other open-source projects have
    been able to cover their fixed costs through donations of time"

    and

    2.) [FOSS is junk] "People willingly pay for quality software even
    when they can get free (but imperfect) substitutes. Open Office is
    a free, open-source suite of word processor, spreadsheet and
    presentation software, but the proprietary Microsoft Office has
    many more users. Gimp is a free, open-source image editor, but the
    proprietary Adobe Photoshop enjoys the lion's share of the market."

    and

    3.) [FOSS is doomed] "The number of proprietary operating systems
    is growing, not shrinking, so competition in this market continues
    quite apart from the fact that the GPL ensures the future
    availability of Linux and other Unix offshoots."

    EASTERBROOK, Chief Judge of the U.S. Court of Appeals for 7th Circuit.

    So go figure the legal basis for "Linux" trademark licensing scheme...

    http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/fdocs/do...6-2454_008.pdf

    http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/fdocs/do...6-2454_010.pdf

    regards,
    alexander.

    --
    "The revolution might take significantly longer than anticipated."

    -- The GNU Monk Harald Welte

  8. Re: Who "owns" =?iso-8859-1?Q?Linux=AE=3F?=

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Attila

    wrote
    on Fri, 05 Oct 2007 17:18:04 +0200
    :
    > This is a spawn of Roy's posting about Openoffice & Symphony. The article by
    > Bruce Byfield states, "Available for both GNU/Linux and Windows XP and
    > Vista..." It seemed to me that Symphony was only available for a small
    > subset of Linux distros so I went back and checked the Symphony system
    > requirements. Here they are:
    >
    > Lotus Symphony supports both Microsoft Windows« and Linux« platforms.
    >
    > Note: Be sure your system meets these client system requirements:
    >
    > * Supported Windows platforms: Windows XP, Windows Vista
    > * Supported Linux platforms: SLED 10, RHEL 5, Redhat5
    > * 750MB disk space minimum on Linux and 540M on Windows
    > * 512MB RAM memory minimum
    > * US English locale
    > So Byfield's statement is a bit misleading. But what astonished me was the
    > registered trademark symbol after Linux used by IBM. Who owns the Linux
    > brand name? Was this an error?!?
    > Attila


    Linux is owned by Linus Torvalds, presumably as a defensive measure.

    http://www.linuxmark.org/

    (Trademark serial number 74560867, registered in September, 1995.)

    Note that there are other variations of Linux running about, in
    non-computer contexts. One of the funnier ones might be
    familiar to those using a certain brand of detergent.

    http://samanathon.com/linux-detergen...bric-softener/

    This is *not* a joke, though:

    http://www.roesch-swiss.ch/?id=1142&prod_id=33

    though they probably get some mildly interesting questions.

    (Trademark serial number 75735641, registered in December, 2000.)

    I doubt it's free, though the company offers a technical
    sheet (presumably with the ingredients used in the powder)
    readily enough. Price probably depends on area. (And yes,
    there's free beer... http://freebeer.org/blog/recipe/
    .... just to confuse things even more. Personally, I don't
    drink the stuff or use Swiss washing powders -- mostly
    because I don't live in Switzerland.)

    A more comprehensive answer is at

    http://www.informationweek.com/blog/...wns_linux.html

    which mentions these two instances and a number of other
    variations, such as "The Linux Foundation".

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    /dev/signature: No such file or directory

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  9. Re: Who "owns" =?iso-8859-1?q?Linux=AE=3F?=

    On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 17:18:04 +0200, Attila wrote:

    > This is a spawn of Roy's posting about Openoffice & Symphony. The article by
    > Bruce Byfield states, "Available for both GNU/Linux and Windows XP and
    > Vista..." It seemed to me that Symphony was only available for a small
    > subset of Linux distros so I went back and checked the Symphony system
    > requirements. Here they are:
    >
    > Lotus Symphony supports both Microsoft Windows® and Linux® platforms.
    >
    > Note: Be sure your system meets these client system requirements:
    >
    > * Supported Windows platforms: Windows XP, Windows Vista
    > * Supported Linux platforms: SLED 10, RHEL 5, Redhat5
    > * 750MB disk space minimum on Linux and 540M on Windows
    > * 512MB RAM memory minimum
    > * US English locale
    > So Byfield's statement is a bit misleading. But what astonished me was the
    > registered trademark symbol after Linux used by IBM. Who owns the Linux
    > brand name? Was this an error?!?
    > Attila


    I believe that would be Linus Torvalds - the creator.


  10. Re: Who "owns" =?iso-8859-1?Q?Linux=AE=3F?=

    Is it true that RMS/FSF (the "GNU/Linux" folk) enjoys the status of
    "approved sublicense holders" (pay no fees) regarding rights rightfully
    owned by the "Linux Mark Institute"? Or do they (RMS/FSF/SFLC) actually
    pay some fees to the "Linux Mark Institute"? Hmmm.

    regards,
    alexander.

    --
    "The revolution might take significantly longer than anticipated."

    -- The GNU Monk Harald Welte

  11. Re: Who "owns" =?UTF-8?B?TGludXjCrj8=?=

    ____/ ray on Friday 05 October 2007 19:22 : \____

    > On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 17:18:04 +0200, Attila wrote:
    >
    >> This is a spawn of Roy's posting about Openoffice & Symphony. The article by
    >> Bruce Byfield states, "Available for both GNU/Linux and Windows XP and
    >> Vista..." It seemed to me that Symphony was only available for a small
    >> subset of Linux distros so I went back and checked the Symphony system
    >> requirements. Here they are:
    >>
    >> Lotus Symphony supports both Microsoft Windows® and Linux® platforms.
    >>
    >> Note: Be sure your system meets these client system requirements:
    >>
    >> * Supported Windows platforms: Windows XP, Windows Vista
    >> * Supported Linux platforms: SLED 10, RHEL 5, Redhat5
    >> * 750MB disk space minimum on Linux and 540M on Windows
    >> * 512MB RAM memory minimum
    >> * US English locale
    >> So Byfield's statement is a bit misleading. But what astonished me was the
    >> registered trademark symbol after Linux used by IBM. Who owns the Linux
    >> brand name? Was this an error?!?
    >> Attila

    >
    > I believe that would be Linus Torvalds - the creator.


    Yes, it's a registered trademark because the word use to be abused in the 90s
    (that's what I've read).

    http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/otherunix.html

    --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | No Makefile, no business
    http://Schestowitz.com | GNU is Not UNIX | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    http://iuron.com - proposing a non-profit search engine

  12. Re: Who "owns" =?UTF-8?B?TGludXjCrj8=?=

    Attila wrote:

    ...But what astonished me was the
    > registered trademark symbol after Linux used by IBM. Who owns the Linux
    > brand name? Was this an error?!?
    > Attila

    Thanks for all the feedback. One of the joys of COLA is that you learn some
    interesting things. I got a jolt seeing "Linux®" which I had never seen
    before. It was a bit like seeing, "drink water® and get plenty of rest." I
    can understand the need to keep the Linux name out of unsavoury hands but
    isn't there there a GPL equivalent for name registration?

    Anyway, thanks to all.
    Attila
    --
    Registerd Linux user #445917 at http://counter.li.org/

  13. Re: Linus Torvalds "owns" =?UTF-8?B?TGludXjCriEg?=

    Attila wrote:
    > Attila wrote:
    >
    > ...But what astonished me was the
    >> registered trademark symbol after Linux used by IBM. Who owns the Linux
    >> brand name? Was this an error?!?
    >> Attila

    > Thanks for all the feedback. One of the joys of COLA is that you learn some
    > interesting things. I got a jolt seeing "Linux®" which I had never seen
    > before. It was a bit like seeing, "drink water® and get plenty of rest." I
    > can understand the need to keep the Linux name out of unsavoury hands but
    > isn't there there a GPL equivalent for name registration?
    >
    > Anyway, thanks to all.
    > Attila

    Linux is the registered trademark by Linus Torvalds
    after that nasty episode where a software thief/nym whore/cybersquatter
    register it as his property, in the USA, circa ~1995.

    "Monterey, California, August 20, 1997--A long standing dispute over
    ownership of the Linux operating system trademark has just been
    resolved. As a result of litigation brought by a group of five Linux
    companies and individuals against William R. Della Croce, Jr. of Boston,
    Massachusetts." Always known as a bum, a thief, a liar, forever.
    Nothing will redeem him in the eyes of honest men.

    It was settled in 1997, and later announced in November 1997.
    http://www2.linuxjournal.com/article/2559


    The consortium of Linux defenders created the Linux Mark Institute in
    1997. http://www.linuxmark.org/about.php

    Many large corporations provided the funding for attorneys to snatch it
    back and the need was for Linus to register the marque.

    You can read it yourself: http://www.linuxmark.org/

  14. =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Who_=22owns=22_Linux=AE=3F?=

    On Oct 5, 11:42 am, Attila wrote:
    > Barb Dwyer wrote:
    >
    >
    > >> So Byfield's statement is a bit misleading. But what astonished me was
    > >> the registered trademark symbol after Linux used by IBM. Who owns the
    > >> Linux brand name? Was this an error?!?
    > >> Attila

    >
    > > Linus Torvalds owns the Linux trademark. He charges companies and annual
    > > fee in order to use the name "Linux."

    >
    > Thanks Barb,
    > Is this true for all "companies"? For example, does Debian pay him an annual
    > fee? Or does he pick and choose who he charges?
    > Attila
    >
    > --
    > Registerd Linux user #445917 athttp://counter.li.org/


    If it uses Linux as part of its brand name or in their slogan, they
    have to pay. Linspire has to pay because their slogan is "The World's
    Easiest Desktop Linux". Xandros has to pay because their slogan is
    "Making Linux Work For You". Canonical has to pay because Ubuntu's
    slogan is "Linux For Human Beings". And so on.


  15. Re: Who "owns" =?iso-8859-1?Q?Linux=AE=3F?=

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Attila belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > What we need now is a linux docu-drama along the lines of Pirates of
    > Silicone Valley. Who would play Torvalds, Stallman, Mad Dog, Debbie & Ian,
    > etc.?


    Say, are Debbie and Ian still together? If not, isn't that a sad
    reflection on the state of Linux?

    --
    Tut rot!

  16. Re: Who "owns" =?UTF-8?B?TGludXjCrj8=?=

    Linonut wrote:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Attila belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> What we need now is a linux docu-drama along the lines of Pirates of
    >> Silicone Valley. Who would play Torvalds, Stallman, Mad Dog, Debbie &
    >> Ian, etc.?

    >
    > Say, are Debbie and Ian still together? If not, isn't that a sad
    > reflection on the state of Linux?
    >

    Together? Absolutely! I saw them holding hands in a candle-lit, romantic
    restaurant in BCN.
    Att
    --
    Registerd Linux user #445917 at http://counter.li.org/

  17. Re: Who "owns" =?iso-8859-1?Q?Linux=AE=3F?=

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Attila belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > Linonut wrote:
    >
    >> After takin' a swig o' grog, Attila belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>
    >>> What we need now is a linux docu-drama along the lines of Pirates of
    >>> Silicone Valley. Who would play Torvalds, Stallman, Mad Dog, Debbie &
    >>> Ian, etc.?

    >>
    >> Say, are Debbie and Ian still together? If not, isn't that a sad
    >> reflection on the state of Linux?
    >>

    > Together? Absolutely! I saw them holding hands in a candle-lit, romantic
    > restaurant in BCN.


    Ah, love! All is well.

    --
    Tux rox!

  18. Re: Who "owns" =?UTF-8?B?TGludXjCrj8=?=

    ____/ Linonut on Monday 08 October 2007 21:44 : \____

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Attila belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >
    >> Linonut wrote:
    >>
    >>> After takin' a swig o' grog, Attila belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>>
    >>>> What we need now is a linux docu-drama along the lines of Pirates of
    >>>> Silicone Valley. Who would play Torvalds, Stallman, Mad Dog, Debbie &
    >>>> Ian, etc.?
    >>>
    >>> Say, are Debbie and Ian still together? If not, isn't that a sad
    >>> reflection on the state of Linux?
    >>>

    >> Together? Absolutely! I saw them holding hands in a candle-lit, romantic
    >> restaurant in BCN.

    >
    > Ah, love! All is well.


    For OpenSolaris/Indiana or for GNU/Linux?

    --
    ~~ Best of wishes

    Roy S. Schestowitz | Gas, brake, honk! Honk, honk, punch! Gas, gas!
    http://Schestowitz.com | RHAT Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
    22:05:01 up 28 days, 20:11, 7 users, load average: 0.13, 0.43, 0.65
    http://iuron.com - Open Source knowledge engine project

  19. Re: Who "owns" =?iso-8859-1?Q?Linux=AE=3F?=

    After takin' a swig o' grog, Roy Schestowitz belched out this bit o' wisdom:

    > ____/ Linonut on Monday 08 October 2007 21:44 : \____
    >
    >> After takin' a swig o' grog, Attila belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>
    >>> Linonut wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> After takin' a swig o' grog, Attila belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>>>
    >>>>> What we need now is a linux docu-drama along the lines of Pirates of
    >>>>> Silicone Valley. Who would play Torvalds, Stallman, Mad Dog, Debbie &
    >>>>> Ian, etc.?
    >>>>
    >>>> Say, are Debbie and Ian still together? If not, isn't that a sad
    >>>> reflection on the state of Linux?
    >>>>
    >>> Together? Absolutely! I saw them holding hands in a candle-lit, romantic
    >>> restaurant in BCN.

    >>
    >> Ah, love! All is well.

    >
    > For OpenSolaris/Indiana or for GNU/Linux?


    For Debbie-Ian, of course!

    --
    Tux rox!

  20. Re: Who "owns" =?UTF-8?B?TGludXjCrj8=?=

    Linonut wrote:

    > After takin' a swig o' grog, Roy Schestowitz belched out this bit o'
    > wisdom:
    >
    >> ____/ Linonut on Monday 08 October 2007 21:44 : \____
    >>
    >>> After takin' a swig o' grog, Attila belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>>
    >>>> Linonut wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> After takin' a swig o' grog, Attila belched out this bit o' wisdom:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> What we need now is a linux docu-drama along the lines of Pirates of
    >>>>>> Silicone Valley. Who would play Torvalds, Stallman, Mad Dog, Debbie &
    >>>>>> Ian, etc.?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Say, are Debbie and Ian still together? If not, isn't that a sad
    >>>>> reflection on the state of Linux?
    >>>>>
    >>>> Together? Absolutely! I saw them holding hands in a candle-lit,
    >>>> romantic restaurant in BCN.
    >>>
    >>> Ah, love! All is well.

    >>
    >> For OpenSolaris/Indiana or for GNU/Linux?

    >
    > For Debbie-Ian, of course!
    >

    Lino,
    Just to be sure, Debbie is a blonde isn't she? I want to be accurate here
    since the future of Gnu/Linux depends on it.
    Att
    --
    Registerd Linux user #445917 at http://counter.li.org/

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