Re: 463 kernel developers missing! - Kernel

This is a discussion on Re: 463 kernel developers missing! - Kernel ; Hi Jon, On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Jon Smirl wrote: > Rene used his email in the immutable log of a public GPL'd project. > It has become part of the public domain and can't be removed. ...

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Thread: Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

  1. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    Hi Jon,

    On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Jon Smirl wrote:
    > Rene used his email in the immutable log of a public GPL'd project.
    > It has become part of the public domain and can't be removed. So new
    > users of the log are supposed to start editing history to remove
    > actions from the past?
    >
    > If you want your email kept private don't use it to submit patches to
    > a GPL'd project.


    OK, I'm not interested in arguing about this. I just don't understand
    what you're trying to accomplish with pissing of kernel contributors,
    that's all. (Not that I'm happy about being on your list either, I
    just don't care enough to argue it.)

    Pekka
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  2. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    On 29-07-08 16:27, Jon Smirl wrote:

    > On 7/29/08, Pekka Enberg wrote:


    >> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Jon Smirl wrote:
    >> >> Like I told you, I don't. Others do. And while that's not a huge issue in
    >> >> itself, you harvesting it into your nicely formatted google and spam-base
    >> >> MAKES it an issue. Just stop this crap. Be away.
    >> >
    >> > Google got the list the second it was mailed on LKML. Why haven't you
    >> > told Google to remove the 1,054 pages that contain your email?
    >> >
    >> > http://www.google.com/support/webmas...08&topic=13511
    >> >
    >> > If you really want to spam kernel developers there is a much easier
    >> > way, just send the message to LKML.

    >>
    >>
    >> Why does any of this matter? Rene asked you to drop his email from
    >> your list and refusing to do so is somewhat rude, isn't it?

    >
    > Rene used his email in the immutable log of a public GPL'd project.
    > It has become part of the public domain and can't be removed. So new
    > users of the log are supposed to start editing history to remove
    > actions from the past?
    >
    > If you want your email kept private don't use it to submit patches to
    > a GPL'd project.


    Jon, **** of. I told you three times now -- I DO NOT, OTHERS DO. And it
    is only your bureaucrat attitude which is turning it into a problem. Go
    apply for a job at IBM if you love IT bureaucracy.

    Rene.
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  3. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 12:39:51PM +0200, Rene Herman wrote:
    > On 29-07-08 02:50, Jon Smirl wrote:
    >
    >>>> Why do these all end in (none)?
    >>>> Craig Hughes
    >>>> Dave Neuer
    >>>> David Brownell
    >>>> David Woodhouse
    >>>> Deepak Saxena
    >>>> Enrico Scholz
    >>>>
    >>> Because rmk rewrites addresses to comply with privacy laws. Another good
    >>> example of why this nonsense of yours is exactly that.
    >>>
    >>> I checked and am personally in there three times, once even without any
    >>> valid email address listed. And any time there's anything other than my
    >>> gmail address in some submission it at least recently means that someone
    >>> _else_ took my from: address and stuck it on there and while I don't
    >>> terribly mind that generally, I find it really annoying to see even those
    >>> mistakes harvested into your hugely google-accessible resource.

    >
    > [ .. ]
    >
    >> As for privacy, if you don't want your email address in a file like
    >> this don't put it into a GPL'd public project.

    >
    > Like I told you, I don't. Others do. And while that's not a huge issue
    > in itself, you harvesting it into your nicely formatted google and
    > spam-base MAKES it an issue. Just stop this crap. Be away.


    Whether Jon's patch is a good idea one might discuss, but as soon as
    someone puts an email address into a kernel commit Google will anyway
    find it:

    The ChangeLog-* files at http://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/
    also contain all addresses in Jon's list, and Google harvests them.
    The same goes for mailing list archives of git-commits-head.

    > Rene.


    cu
    Adrian

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  4. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 04:46:24PM -0400, Dave Jones wrote:
    > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 04:22:36PM -0400, Theodore Tso wrote:
    > > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 03:00:13PM -0400, Jon Smirl wrote:
    > > > Other people aren't perfect, I've found over 1,000 typos in the those
    > > > names and emails. We need a validation mechanism.
    > > >

    > >
    > > You keep using the word "need"; I do not think it means what you think
    > > it does. :-)
    > >
    > > Seriously, why is it so important? It's a nice to have, and I
    > > recognize that you've spent a bunch of time on it. But if the goal is
    > > to get better statistics, and in exchange we forcibly map all Mark
    > > Browns to one e-mail address, and/or force them to all adopt middle
    > > initials (what if there are two Dan Smith's that don't have middle
    > > initials) just for the convenience of your statistics gathering, I
    > > would gently suggest to you that you've forgotten which is the tail,
    > > and which is the dog.

    >
    > I'm beginning to question just how useful the continued measuring
    > of things like Signed-off-by's is. Last week at OLS, I overheard
    > a conversation where someone was talking about the "top 10" lists
    > that Greg has been talking about at various conferences.
    > The conversation went along the lines of "my manager really wants
    > to see us on that list, at any cost".
    > Whilst the niave may think 'more patches == more better', this isn't
    > necessarily the case given we have nowhere near enough review bandwidth
    > *now*, and flooding with a zillion trivial patches really isn't going
    > to make that job any easier.
    >
    > Getting patches into the tree is easy, we've proven that.
    > As things stand now, it's also fairly easy to 'game' the system
    > by committing something in 10 changesets when it could be done
    > just as easily in 2-3.
    >
    > How about we start measuring things that actually matter, like..
    >
    > "How many patches were reviewed before they went in"
    > "How many patches were directly responsible for a bug"
    > "How many patches actually fixed something anyone cares about"
    > "How many patches are responsible for just 'churn'"


    How do you want to measure such stuff?

    And with measuring I'm not talking about estimates but about exact data.

    Authorship information was already available in the commits, which is
    why people were able to develop scripts to harvest them.

    For getting any meaningful statistics you have to either enforce the
    usage of additional tags in the commits or someone has to work full-time
    on generating statistics.

    > Dave


    cu
    Adrian

    --

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  5. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    Adrian Bunk wrote:
    > Whether Jon's patch is a good idea one might discuss,


    There isn't a lot to discuss. From a purely technical standpoint,
    duplicating SCM metadata into a source file and aiming to be
    comprehensive and up to date is naive at best.

    > but as soon as someone puts an email address into a kernel commit
    > Google will anyway find it:


    This doesn't justify what Jon did though.

    Jon created a new database out of formerly disparate datasets, even
    though we didn't provide him these datasets for this purpose. The fact
    that the means to create this database are rather trivial and cheap do
    not mean that we implicitly agreed to what he did or that it wouldn't
    matter whether we agree to it or not.

    Jon even suggested that his database is then used to combine with
    further databases (bugzilla accounts, mailinglist archives). Again, the
    fact that something like this is possible without great difficulties
    doesn't make it right.
    --
    Stefan Richter
    -=====-==--- -=== ====-
    http://arcgraph.de/sr/
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  6. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    On 30-07-08 09:24, Adrian Bunk wrote:

    > Whether Jon's patch is a good idea one might discuss


    it is not

    > but as soon as someone puts an email address into a kernel commit
    > Google will anyway find it:


    It will and note this is not a privacy issue "as such" at least for me
    (for rmk rewriting addresses is a privacy issue, directly or via law,
    and whether or not needed in this specific example or not)

    Google find lots of things, most of which do not end up at the top of
    the search results. This address I'm now posting with is definitely
    public (or I wouldn't be posting with it) but given that it shouldn't
    even exist at the moment I have been careful for some time to put a
    relay address into anything which I intend to be long lived.

    Since outside its non-existence it's the best address I have available I
    do still use it though. This is not a problem, since all mailing list
    archives go to great trouble to obscure addresses anyway and my gmail
    address will feature as the "most public" from it being in _content_.
    Sometimes others use this address in content as well but given that they
    can't be expected to know about any of my peculiar mail fetishes I'm not
    going to whine about it and it's not a practical problem anyway.

    Then Jon comes along, puts _all_ addresses in content inside a hugely
    publicized, widely web-indexed tree and ****s it up.

    Anyways... yesterday I had to turn the fan on my monitor to keep it from
    damage in this bloody furnace while today it's some 5 degrees cooler and
    the fan's aimed at me again so I'll stop cursing and shouting now. But
    still a damn bad idea.

    Rene.
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  7. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:37:34AM +0200, Stefan Richter wrote:
    > Adrian Bunk wrote:
    >...
    > > but as soon as someone puts an email address into a kernel commit
    > > Google will anyway find it:

    >
    > This doesn't justify what Jon did though.
    >
    > Jon created a new database out of formerly disparate datasets, even
    > though we didn't provide him these datasets for this purpose. The fact
    > that the means to create this database are rather trivial and cheap do
    > not mean that we implicitly agreed to what he did or that it wouldn't
    > matter whether we agree to it or not.
    >...


    You certified:

    I understand and agree that this project and the contribution
    are public and that a record of the contribution (including all
    personal information I submit with it, including my sign-off) is
    maintained indefinitely and may be redistributed consistent with
    this project or the open source license(s) involved.


    And if you think this doesn't cover Jon's patch you should also
    complain to LWN and the Linux Foundation who published data
    generated from the same datasets as Jon's patch.


    > Stefan Richter


    cu
    Adrian

    --

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    "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
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  8. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    On 30-07-08 14:46, Adrian Bunk wrote:

    > On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:37:34AM +0200, Stefan Richter wrote:
    >> Adrian Bunk wrote:
    >> ...
    >>> but as soon as someone puts an email address into a kernel commit
    >>> Google will anyway find it:

    >> This doesn't justify what Jon did though.
    >>
    >> Jon created a new database out of formerly disparate datasets, even
    >> though we didn't provide him these datasets for this purpose. The fact
    >> that the means to create this database are rather trivial and cheap do
    >> not mean that we implicitly agreed to what he did or that it wouldn't
    >> matter whether we agree to it or not.
    >> ...

    >
    > You certified:


    You only certify anything when _you_ put your address in. Given that
    it's a very common occurence that not you but _others_ do, this does not
    mean a _single_ thing. Tested-by, Bisected-by, what have you...

    But let us leave this discussion be. It's not going anywhere anyway.

    Rene.

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  9. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    On 30-07-08 14:58, Paul Rolland wrote:

    > And you dare [ .. ]


    *plonk*

    Rene
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  10. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    Hello,

    First, please note that my name and addresses are _in_ the list published
    by Jon.

    On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:43:12 +0200
    Rene Herman wrote:

    > On 30-07-08 09:24, Adrian Bunk wrote:
    >
    > > Whether Jon's patch is a good idea one might discuss

    >
    > it is not


    And you dare using ? Where is this a discussion ?

    > > but as soon as someone puts an email address into a kernel commit
    > > Google will anyway find it:

    >
    > It will and note this is not a privacy issue "as such" at least for me
    > (for rmk rewriting addresses is a privacy issue, directly or via law,
    > and whether or not needed in this specific example or not)
    >

    [...]
    >
    > Then Jon comes along, puts _all_ addresses in content inside a hugely
    > publicized, widely web-indexed tree and ****s it up.
    >
    > Anyways... yesterday I had to turn the fan on my monitor to keep it from
    > damage in this bloody furnace while today it's some 5 degrees cooler and
    > the fan's aimed at me again so I'll stop cursing and shouting now. But
    > still a damn bad idea.


    Sorry, I don't agree. First, because using Google to collect a list of emails
    is damn easy, and wether this list is handy or not is not changing for people
    using it for Spam.
    Second, because it takes just a few seconds to extract it nearly as complete
    as Jon's version from git : git log | grep Author: | sort | uniq -c
    gives something very useful : about 5800 emails. So let's not consider Jon is
    saving a complicated job for people searching for this list.

    Linux is an open project. Everything that's related to it is open, and public.
    If you don't want your name/email to be associated with it, that's another
    issue.

    We could blame Jon for publishing the his list on the list without prior
    information, but not for creating it.
    And I certainly would like to see the .mailmap appear at my next git pull

    Regards,
    Paul

    --
    Paul Rolland E-Mail : rol(at)witbe.net
    CTO - Witbe.net SA Tel. +33 (0)1 47 67 77 77
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  11. RE: 463 kernel developers missing!


    Stefan Richter wrote:

    > This doesn't justify what Jon did though.


    No, but the GPL does.

    > Jon created a new database out of formerly disparate datasets, even
    > though we didn't provide him these datasets for this purpose. The fact
    > that the means to create this database are rather trivial and cheap do
    > not mean that we implicitly agreed to what he did or that it wouldn't
    > matter whether we agree to it or not.


    Yes, it does. If you contribute to a GPL project, you *explicitly* agree to exactly this. Anything you submit may be pieced together, changed, made public, processed, and used for purposes other than you intended.

    > Jon even suggested that his database is then used to combine with
    > further databases (bugzilla accounts, mailinglist archives). Again, the
    > fact that something like this is possible without great difficulties
    > doesn't make it right.


    No, but that all the submissions were made under the GPL, whose explicit purpose is to allow information to be changed, processed, and reused for other purposes does.

    If you don't want your submissions to be in the public record for all eternity to be used for any lawful purpose, don't make them to a GPL project.

    You have no right whatsoever to look at how one person chooses to use them and say "I didn't agree to that". Yes, you did. You gave up the right to approve or reject each use when you made the submission. If you don't like it, submit under some other license.

    DS


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  12. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    On 7/30/08, Stefan Richter wrote:
    > Adrian Bunk wrote:
    > > Whether Jon's patch is a good idea one might discuss,

    >
    >
    > There isn't a lot to discuss. From a purely technical standpoint,
    > duplicating SCM metadata into a source file and aiming to be
    > comprehensive and up to date is naive at best.


    I noticed that the log was full of errors and thought that it might be
    nice to have a mechanism to correct them. Since the log is immutable,
    error correction needs to be external. It is a different discussion as
    to whether we should try and fix the errors in the log.

    Assuming that we wanted the data clean I came up with this solution.
    Maybe there is a better way.

    Kernel log is immutable.
    Kernel log contains about 1,000 errors of various classes.
    ..mailmap file format was preexisting, it maps email addresses to
    people's names. If can be used to map the other direction, but none of
    the kernel tools use it that way.

    I observed that the unique key in the log is the email address, but
    many of those email keys have errors in them, The data item we are
    actually interested in is the developer's name.

    I then generated a .mailmap file containing all of the unique email
    addresses in the log and a guess from the log as to which developer
    was associated with the email.

    I then used various tools and hand editing to correct the ~1,000
    errors and assign the correct developer name to the email in the log.
    Correcting all these errors was a lot of work.It exposed the fact that
    tools in the maintainer's change may be the largest source of errors.
    Of course the file can be patched as more errors are found.

    This new mailmap file now has two types of entries, ones fixing errors
    and ones that are just copies of the data from the log.

    I chose to leave both types of records in the file to make maintenance
    easier. The complete set of email keys from the log is in the mailmap
    file. To do maintenance, regenerate the email keys from the log and
    diff them against mailmap. Now you only have to inspect the diff for
    errors. After the diff is clean, add the new entires to the mailmap.

    If you remove entries from the mailmap file they will get flagged in
    every maintenance sweep and need to be removed again. Of course this
    will lead you to build a list of people who don't want to be in the
    list.

    The mailmap file is sorted by name instead of email even though it is
    used to convert email to name. This makes it easy for humans to edit
    when their name changes (like getting married). Find all of your
    aliases and change them to reflect your new name. Output from all of
    the tools using mailmap will be updated.

    I see now that editing the name provides a mechanism for removing
    people from the file, their names can be edited to 'anonymous' . The
    email address can't be removed since they are keys and have to match
    the immutable set in the log. People may not be happy when tools
    report that the developer of the patch that is causing them problem is
    'anonymous'.

    A simplistic validation check would be for checkpatch to look up each
    email address in a new patch and print a warning if the address was
    not in mailmap. That would be enough to stop many of the common typo
    errors.

    Assuming we want the log data clean, what's a better solution?


    >
    > > but as soon as someone puts an email address into a kernel commit
    > > Google will anyway find it:

    >
    >
    > This doesn't justify what Jon did though.
    >
    > Jon created a new database out of formerly disparate datasets, even
    > though we didn't provide him these datasets for this purpose. The fact
    > that the means to create this database are rather trivial and cheap do
    > not mean that we implicitly agreed to what he did or that it wouldn't
    > matter whether we agree to it or not.
    >
    > Jon even suggested that his database is then used to combine with
    > further databases (bugzilla accounts, mailinglist archives). Again, the
    > fact that something like this is possible without great difficulties
    > doesn't make it right.
    >
    > --
    > Stefan Richter
    > -=====-==--- -=== ====-
    > http://arcgraph.de/sr/
    >



    --
    Jon Smirl
    jonsmirl@gmail.com
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  13. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    Adrian Bunk wrote:
    > On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:37:34AM +0200, Stefan Richter wrote:

    [That I signed off -> on a contribution <- does...]
    >> not mean that we implicitly agreed to what he did or that it wouldn't
    >> matter whether we agree to it or not.
    >>...

    >
    > You certified:
    >
    > I understand and agree that this project and the contribution
    > are public and that a record of the contribution (including all
    > personal information I submit with it, including my sign-off) is
    > maintained indefinitely and may be redistributed consistent with
    > this project or the open source license(s) involved.


    Yes.

    Copyright doesn't have a lot to do with personality rights though.
    And then there is also ethics besides laws.
    --
    Stefan Richter
    -=====-==--- -=== ====-
    http://arcgraph.de/sr/
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  14. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    David Schwartz wrote:
    > Stefan Richter wrote:
    >> This doesn't justify what Jon did though.

    >
    > No, but the GPL does.


    GPL is merely about copyright.
    --
    Stefan Richter
    -=====-==--- -=== ====-
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  15. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    > No, but that all the submissions were made under the GPL, whose explicit purpose is to allow information to be changed, processed, and reused for other purposes does.

    So why hasn't Jon included a copy of the GPL and the sources with his new
    data set ?

    > If you don't want your submissions to be in the public record for all eternity to be used for any lawful purpose, don't make them to a GPL project.


    The GPL doesn't trump data protection law. It can't.

    > You have no right whatsoever to look at how one person chooses to use them and say "I didn't agree to that". Yes, you did. You gave up the right to approve or reject each use when you made the submission. If you don't like it, submit under some other license.


    Disagree - firstly national law trumps licences, secondly there is the
    (regrettably increasingly) small matter of manners.

    Alan
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  16. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    On 7/30/08, Alan Cox wrote:
    > > No, but that all the submissions were made under the GPL, whose explicit purpose is to allow information to be changed, processed, and reused for other purposes does.

    >
    >
    > So why hasn't Jon included a copy of the GPL and the sources with his new
    > data set ?


    Bug, obviously the file needs it, it is derived from GPL'd files.
    Please edit your local copy, no need to send another couple hundred GB
    of email.

    > > If you don't want your submissions to be in the public record for all eternity to be used for any lawful purpose, don't make them to a GPL project.

    >
    >
    > The GPL doesn't trump data protection law. It can't.


    By making a submission to a GPL'd project didn't you grant a license
    for your data to be used? That was Ted's point when he posted the
    developer's certification.

    >
    > > You have no right whatsoever to look at how one person chooses to use them and say "I didn't agree to that". Yes, you did. You gave up the right to approve or reject each use when you made the submission. If you don't like it, submit under some other license.

    >
    >
    > Disagree - firstly national law trumps licences, secondly there is the
    > (regrettably increasingly) small matter of manners.
    >
    >
    > Alan
    >
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    Jon Smirl
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  17. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 02:54:05PM +0200, Rene Herman wrote:
    > On 30-07-08 14:46, Adrian Bunk wrote:
    >
    >> On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:37:34AM +0200, Stefan Richter wrote:
    >>> Adrian Bunk wrote:
    >>> ...
    >>>> but as soon as someone puts an email address into a kernel commit
    >>>> Google will anyway find it:
    >>> This doesn't justify what Jon did though.
    >>>
    >>> Jon created a new database out of formerly disparate datasets, even
    >>> though we didn't provide him these datasets for this purpose. The fact
    >>> that the means to create this database are rather trivial and cheap do
    >>> not mean that we implicitly agreed to what he did or that it wouldn't
    >>> matter whether we agree to it or not.
    >>> ...

    >>
    >> You certified:

    >
    > You only certify anything when _you_ put your address in. Given that
    > it's a very common occurence that not you but _others_ do, this does not
    > mean a _single_ thing. Tested-by, Bisected-by, what have you...
    >
    > But let us leave this discussion be. It's not going anywhere anyway.


    There's one thing where it might actually go further:

    You actually have a good point here, and I'm not disagreeing with it.

    I've added Linus to the recipients since stuff like e.g. Tested-by or
    Bisected-by tags actually undermine what the DCE 1.1 update should
    have accomplished. So if DCE 1.1 (d) is considered to be legally
    required for public indefinite storage of name and email address
    we have a problem here.

    > Rene.


    cu
    Adrian

    --

    "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
    of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
    "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
    Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

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  18. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    > > The GPL doesn't trump data protection law. It can't.
    >
    > By making a submission to a GPL'd project didn't you grant a license
    > for your data to be used? That was Ted's point when he posted the
    > developer's certification.


    Data protection law trumps the GPL. The fact my address is public does
    not give you the rights globally to process it.


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  19. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    On 7/30/08, Alan Cox wrote:
    > > > The GPL doesn't trump data protection law. It can't.

    > >
    > > By making a submission to a GPL'd project didn't you grant a license
    > > for your data to be used? That was Ted's point when he posted the
    > > developer's certification.

    >
    >
    > Data protection law trumps the GPL. The fact my address is public does
    > not give you the rights globally to process it.
    >


    There are a lot of companies (including Google's code database)
    indexing the kernel source and processing it into new form. What is
    their standing?

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    Jon Smirl
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  20. Re: 463 kernel developers missing!

    > There are a lot of companies (including Google's code database)
    > indexing the kernel source and processing it into new form. What is
    > their standing?


    That would depend on their location and activities.

    Alan
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