Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008 - Kernel

This is a discussion on Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008 - Kernel ; The third Linux Wireless mini-summit will occur on Tuesday July 22, 2008 in Ottawa, just before the Ottawa Linux Symposium. OLS is generously supporting Linux mini-summits by providing the room and projector ( http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2008/minisummits.php ). Several vendors are supporting the ...

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Thread: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

  1. Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    The third Linux Wireless mini-summit will occur on Tuesday July 22,
    2008 in Ottawa, just before the Ottawa Linux Symposium. OLS is
    generously supporting Linux mini-summits by providing the room and
    projector (http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2008/minisummits.php).
    Several vendors are supporting the event by sponsoring their own
    employees to attend, and Canonical and Intel have both helped with
    travel funds for key community participants as well.

    Although it is already a bit late, I would like to re-open discussions
    on our agenda for the meeting. Based on current upstream topics and
    those persons whom I expect to be attending, I have cobbled together
    an agenda proposal below. Please review it and feel free to suggest
    amendments or alterations, or to elaborate or ask questions about my
    proposed schedule of topics.

    I look forward to seeing many of you in Ottawa!

    John

    P.S. If you intend to attend the event in Ottawa, please send me a
    private reply to this note -- even if you believe that I already know
    that you are coming! :-)

    ---

    3rd Linux Wireless Summit
    Ottawa, Canada
    22 July 2008

    Proposed Agenda

    0830 Meet & Greet

    Introductions and opening remarks

    0900 Status Reports

    Overview of where things stand today

    - 802.11n

    - QoS/Multiqueue

    - Mesh mode (802.11s)

    - RF kill

    1015 Break

    1100 Vendor/Distro Round Table

    Representatives from hardware vendors and Linux distributions
    discuss issues around cooperation between themselves and the
    development community, what we are doing well, and what problems we
    are causing for each other.

    1200 Lunch/Break (sorry, no funding)

    1300 Current Work

    Short presentations/discussions about work in progress

    - encrypted management frames (802.11w)

    - regulatory enforcement (802.11d, CRDA)

    - virtual hardware (mac80211_hwsim)

    1445 Break

    1500 Future work

    Short presentations/discussions about work that has previously
    been suggested or requested

    - cfg80211/nl80211
    - time to push to replace WEXT?
    - tool enhancements and/or userland support?

    - power management (suspend/resume)

    - lib80211 (code sharing w/ full MAC drivers)

    - rate scaling algorithms
    - minstrel
    - others?

    - userland MLME

    - userland driver implementation

    1645 Break

    1700 Maintainence Issues

    Round table discussion of issues related to maintenance of
    the wireless trees

    - trivial/cleanup patches
    - testing or other requirements?
    - should they have lower priority?
    - should they require ACKs from primary author?

    - submissions to -stable
    - who should drive it?
    - what policies?

    - rate scaling algs
    - driver-specific ok? what limitations?
    - build policies (part of mac80211.ko?)

    - questions/suggestions/complaints

    1800 Dinner/Break (sorry, no funding)

    2000 BoF/Break-out Sessions

    Impromptu and/or unscheduled discussions as desired by group
    participants

    --
    John W. Linville
    linville@tuxdriver.com
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  2. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:09 PM, John W. Linville
    wrote:
    > The third Linux Wireless mini-summit will occur on Tuesday July 22,
    > 2008 in Ottawa, just before the Ottawa Linux Symposium. OLS is
    > generously supporting Linux mini-summits by providing the room and
    > projector (http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2008/minisummits.php).
    > Several vendors are supporting the event by sponsoring their own
    > employees to attend, and Canonical and Intel have both helped with
    > travel funds for key community participants as well.
    >
    > Although it is already a bit late, I would like to re-open discussions
    > on our agenda for the meeting. Based on current upstream topics and
    > those persons whom I expect to be attending, I have cobbled together
    > an agenda proposal below. Please review it and feel free to suggest
    > amendments or alterations, or to elaborate or ask questions about my
    > proposed schedule of topics.
    >
    > I look forward to seeing many of you in Ottawa!


    One more topic would be probably
    power management/power save - connection to system power/power supply
    (Battery/AC)
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  3. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    Hello,
    Linux wireless is, without any doubt, a very important subject.
    Many people show interest in it.

    It is good to hear that the third Linux Wireless mini-summit will
    occur at OLS, which will give opportunity to many people (which some
    of them don't know much about linux wireless) to attend it (whereas
    the two last wireless mini-summits were not part of OLS, as far as I
    know).

    I want to add that It would be great if part of it (or hopefully, all
    of it) will be videoed and put on the web. I am sure that many
    (including me) will be glad to watch it. I am sure that making an
    effort like this is important and is of interest for the linux
    wireless community.

    Regards,
    Mark Ryden


    On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 10:09 PM, John W. Linville
    wrote:
    > The third Linux Wireless mini-summit will occur on Tuesday July 22,
    > 2008 in Ottawa, just before the Ottawa Linux Symposium. OLS is
    > generously supporting Linux mini-summits by providing the room and
    > projector (http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2008/minisummits.php).
    > Several vendors are supporting the event by sponsoring their own
    > employees to attend, and Canonical and Intel have both helped with
    > travel funds for key community participants as well.
    >
    > Although it is already a bit late, I would like to re-open discussions
    > on our agenda for the meeting. Based on current upstream topics and
    > those persons whom I expect to be attending, I have cobbled together
    > an agenda proposal below. Please review it and feel free to suggest
    > amendments or alterations, or to elaborate or ask questions about my
    > proposed schedule of topics.
    >
    > I look forward to seeing many of you in Ottawa!
    >
    > John
    >
    > P.S. If you intend to attend the event in Ottawa, please send me a
    > private reply to this note -- even if you believe that I already know
    > that you are coming! :-)
    >
    > ---
    >
    > 3rd Linux Wireless Summit
    > Ottawa, Canada
    > 22 July 2008
    >
    > Proposed Agenda
    >
    > 0830 Meet & Greet
    >
    > Introductions and opening remarks
    >
    > 0900 Status Reports
    >
    > Overview of where things stand today
    >
    > - 802.11n
    >
    > - QoS/Multiqueue
    >
    > - Mesh mode (802.11s)
    >
    > - RF kill
    >
    > 1015 Break
    >
    > 1100 Vendor/Distro Round Table
    >
    > Representatives from hardware vendors and Linux distributions
    > discuss issues around cooperation between themselves and the
    > development community, what we are doing well, and what problems we
    > are causing for each other.
    >
    > 1200 Lunch/Break (sorry, no funding)
    >
    > 1300 Current Work
    >
    > Short presentations/discussions about work in progress
    >
    > - encrypted management frames (802.11w)
    >
    > - regulatory enforcement (802.11d, CRDA)
    >
    > - virtual hardware (mac80211_hwsim)
    >
    > 1445 Break
    >
    > 1500 Future work
    >
    > Short presentations/discussions about work that has previously
    > been suggested or requested
    >
    > - cfg80211/nl80211
    > - time to push to replace WEXT?
    > - tool enhancements and/or userland support?
    >
    > - power management (suspend/resume)
    >
    > - lib80211 (code sharing w/ full MAC drivers)
    >
    > - rate scaling algorithms
    > - minstrel
    > - others?
    >
    > - userland MLME
    >
    > - userland driver implementation
    >
    > 1645 Break
    >
    > 1700 Maintainence Issues
    >
    > Round table discussion of issues related to maintenance of
    > the wireless trees
    >
    > - trivial/cleanup patches
    > - testing or other requirements?
    > - should they have lower priority?
    > - should they require ACKs from primary author?
    >
    > - submissions to -stable
    > - who should drive it?
    > - what policies?
    >
    > - rate scaling algs
    > - driver-specific ok? what limitations?
    > - build policies (part of mac80211.ko?)
    >
    > - questions/suggestions/complaints
    >
    > 1800 Dinner/Break (sorry, no funding)
    >
    > 2000 BoF/Break-out Sessions
    >
    > Impromptu and/or unscheduled discussions as desired by group
    > participants
    >
    > --
    > John W. Linville
    > linville@tuxdriver.com
    > --
    > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in
    > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
    > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
    >

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  4. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    >
    > > The third Linux Wireless mini-summit will occur on Tuesday July 22,
    > > 2008 in Ottawa, just before the Ottawa Linux Symposium. OLS is
    > > generously supporting Linux mini-summits by providing the room and
    > > projector (http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2008/minisummits.php).
    > > Several vendors are supporting the event by sponsoring their own
    > > employees to attend, and Canonical and Intel have both helped with
    > > travel funds for key community participants as well.
    > >
    > > Although it is already a bit late, I would like to re-open discussions
    > > on our agenda for the meeting. Based on current upstream topics and
    > > those persons whom I expect to be attending, I have cobbled together
    > > an agenda proposal below. Please review it and feel free to suggest
    > > amendments or alterations, or to elaborate or ask questions about my
    > > proposed schedule of topics.
    > >
    > > I look forward to seeing many of you in Ottawa!

    >
    > One more topic would be probably
    > power management/power save - connection to system power/power supply
    > (Battery/AC)


    brief discussion about AP mode current and future plans would be
    appreciated, maybe as part of the MLME topic.
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  5. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 09:21 +0200, Holger Schurig wrote:
    > Suspend/Resume?


    Umm? It's on his list.

    johannes

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  6. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    Suspend/Resume?
    --
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  7. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008


    > 0900 Status Reports
    > Overview of where things stand today
    > - 802.11n
    > - QoS/Multiqueue
    > - Mesh mode (802.11s)
    > - RF kill


    And spectrum management (Tomas) please.

    > 1300 Current Work
    >
    > Short presentations/discussions about work in progress
    > - encrypted management frames (802.11w)
    > - regulatory enforcement (802.11d, CRDA)
    > - virtual hardware (mac80211_hwsim)


    or here

    We've seen initial patches that add a bit of infrastructure, but aren't
    using these things yet.

    johannes

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  8. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Johannes Berg
    wrote:
    >
    >> 0900 Status Reports
    >> Overview of where things stand today
    >> - 802.11n
    >> - QoS/Multiqueue
    >> - Mesh mode (802.11s)
    >> - RF kill

    >
    > And spectrum management (Tomas) please.




    >
    > We've seen initial patches that add a bit of infrastructure, but aren't
    > using these things yet.


    Hope to submit all the patches before symposium.
    The whole package is already visible in iwl5000 branch of
    iwlwifi-2.6.git Need to clean it up and submit.

    Thanks
    Tomas
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  9. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008


    > 1500 Future work


    Maybe something about testing? Or I'll do a testing brainstorming
    session after dinner.

    Obviously, testing at orbit never worked out, but it'd be good to have
    _something_ other than everybody testing their thing locally. Ties in
    with the virtual hardware, maybe?

    johannes

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  10. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    Tomas Winkler writes:

    >> Although it is already a bit late, I would like to re-open discussions
    >> on our agenda for the meeting. Based on current upstream topics and
    >> those persons whom I expect to be attending, I have cobbled together
    >> an agenda proposal below. Please review it and feel free to suggest
    >> amendments or alterations, or to elaborate or ask questions about my
    >> proposed schedule of topics.
    >>
    >> I look forward to seeing many of you in Ottawa!

    >
    > One more topic would be probably
    > power management/power save - connection to system power/power supply
    > (Battery/AC)


    I'm also very interested about this. mac80211 is lacking any support
    for Power Save Mode and I think we should fix that. At least having an
    interface to enable and disable PSM would be a start, but we could go
    even further than that.

    I'm just worried if one day is enough for us. The agenda is getting
    quite long already.

    --
    Kalle Valo
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  11. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 5:31 PM, Johannes Berg
    wrote:
    >
    >> 1500 Future work

    >
    > Maybe something about testing? Or I'll do a testing brainstorming
    > session after dinner.
    >
    > Obviously, testing at orbit never worked out, but it'd be good to have
    > _something_ other than everybody testing their thing locally. Ties in
    > with the virtual hardware, maybe?
    >

    From the driver perspective it would be loop back phy (tx/rx), The
    peer side might be running on virtual HW. Currently it's not easy to
    establish automated regression over the air. Good portion of the flows
    can be tested this way.

    I'm also looking for easier bug reporting for unexperienced users
    maybe some uevent/HAL popping to application and emails it out/. Not
    sure really how to handle this and not create spams. I'm just
    expecting more real 'end users'.


    Thanks
    Tomas
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  12. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    On Thursday 10 July 2008 18:12:32 Stefanik Gbor wrote:
    > Some other topics which might be of interest/good to include:
    > - New chipsets needing drivers (SiS 16x, Marvell, etc.)


    I have no idea what to discuss about non-existing drivers, really.
    Something like: "Do we need that driver? Everyone votes YES and is happy"?

    > - Radiotap enhancements


    What radiotap enhancements specifically? If it's just a field or a bit
    to add, just mail the radiotap people. I think there's no need to discuss that
    (except for with the radiotap people on their mailinglist).

    > - Userspace MLME: Plans and status


    Already on the list.

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    Greetings Michael.
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  13. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 9:09 PM, John W. Linville wrote:
    > The third Linux Wireless mini-summit will occur on Tuesday July 22,
    > 2008 in Ottawa, just before the Ottawa Linux Symposium. OLS is
    > generously supporting Linux mini-summits by providing the room and
    > projector (http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2008/minisummits.php).
    > Several vendors are supporting the event by sponsoring their own
    > employees to attend, and Canonical and Intel have both helped with
    > travel funds for key community participants as well.
    >
    > Although it is already a bit late, I would like to re-open discussions
    > on our agenda for the meeting. Based on current upstream topics and
    > those persons whom I expect to be attending, I have cobbled together
    > an agenda proposal below. Please review it and feel free to suggest
    > amendments or alterations, or to elaborate or ask questions about my
    > proposed schedule of topics.
    >
    > I look forward to seeing many of you in Ottawa!
    >
    > John
    >
    > P.S. If you intend to attend the event in Ottawa, please send me a
    > private reply to this note -- even if you believe that I already know
    > that you are coming! :-)
    >
    > ---
    >
    > 3rd Linux Wireless Summit
    > Ottawa, Canada
    > 22 July 2008
    >
    > Proposed Agenda
    >
    > 0830 Meet & Greet
    >
    > Introductions and opening remarks
    >
    > 0900 Status Reports
    >
    > Overview of where things stand today
    >
    > - 802.11n
    >
    > - QoS/Multiqueue
    >
    > - Mesh mode (802.11s)
    >
    > - RF kill
    >
    > 1015 Break
    >
    > 1100 Vendor/Distro Round Table
    >
    > Representatives from hardware vendors and Linux distributions
    > discuss issues around cooperation between themselves and the
    > development community, what we are doing well, and what problems we
    > are causing for each other.
    >
    > 1200 Lunch/Break (sorry, no funding)
    >
    > 1300 Current Work
    >
    > Short presentations/discussions about work in progress
    >
    > - encrypted management frames (802.11w)
    >
    > - regulatory enforcement (802.11d, CRDA)
    >
    > - virtual hardware (mac80211_hwsim)
    >
    > 1445 Break
    >
    > 1500 Future work
    >
    > Short presentations/discussions about work that has previously
    > been suggested or requested
    >
    > - cfg80211/nl80211
    > - time to push to replace WEXT?
    > - tool enhancements and/or userland support?
    >
    > - power management (suspend/resume)
    >
    > - lib80211 (code sharing w/ full MAC drivers)
    >
    > - rate scaling algorithms
    > - minstrel
    > - others?
    >
    > - userland MLME
    >
    > - userland driver implementation
    >
    > 1645 Break
    >
    > 1700 Maintainence Issues
    >
    > Round table discussion of issues related to maintenance of
    > the wireless trees
    >
    > - trivial/cleanup patches
    > - testing or other requirements?
    > - should they have lower priority?
    > - should they require ACKs from primary author?
    >
    > - submissions to -stable
    > - who should drive it?
    > - what policies?
    >
    > - rate scaling algs
    > - driver-specific ok? what limitations?
    > - build policies (part of mac80211.ko?)
    >
    > - questions/suggestions/complaints
    >
    > 1800 Dinner/Break (sorry, no funding)
    >
    > 2000 BoF/Break-out Sessions
    >
    > Impromptu and/or unscheduled discussions as desired by group
    > participants
    >
    > --
    > John W. Linville
    > linville@tuxdriver.com
    > --
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    > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
    > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
    >


    Some other topics which might be of interest/good to include:
    - New chipsets needing drivers (SiS 16x, Marvell, etc.)
    - Radiotap enhancements
    - Userspace MLME: Plans and status

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  14. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    On Wednesday 09 July 2008, John W. Linville wrote:
    > The third Linux Wireless mini-summit will occur on Tuesday July 22,
    > 2008 in Ottawa, just before the Ottawa Linux Symposium. OLS is
    > generously supporting Linux mini-summits by providing the room and
    > projector (http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2008/minisummits.php).
    > Several vendors are supporting the event by sponsoring their own
    > employees to attend, and Canonical and Intel have both helped with
    > travel funds for key community participants as well.
    >
    > Although it is already a bit late, I would like to re-open discussions
    > on our agenda for the meeting. Based on current upstream topics and
    > those persons whom I expect to be attending, I have cobbled together
    > an agenda proposal below. Please review it and feel free to suggest
    > amendments or alterations, or to elaborate or ask questions about my
    > proposed schedule of topics.


    Please add a note about WiMAX. We'd like to give a quick intro to the
    technology and the infrastructure work we are doing for it.

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    Inaky
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  15. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 05:30:47PM +0300, Kalle Valo wrote:

    > I'm just worried if one day is enough for us. The agenda is getting
    > quite long already.


    There should be plenty of time to continue discussions after (or even
    before) the mini-summit since I would assume most people stay for OLS.
    For example, I will be in Ottawa for the full week (July 18-27) and
    will be available for discussions related to wireless topics both
    before and after the mini-summit itself.

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    Jouni Malinen PGP id EFC895FA
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  16. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    Jouni Malinen writes:

    > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 05:30:47PM +0300, Kalle Valo wrote:
    >
    >> I'm just worried if one day is enough for us. The agenda is getting
    >> quite long already.

    >
    > There should be plenty of time to continue discussions after (or even
    > before) the mini-summit since I would assume most people stay for OLS.


    Yes, you are right. I guess there are vacant rooms during the OLS
    which we can use, if needed.

    > For example, I will be in Ottawa for the full week (July 18-27) and
    > will be available for discussions related to wireless topics both
    > before and after the mini-summit itself.


    I'm also very interested in any discussions. I will be arriving on the
    20th and leaving on the 27th of July.

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  17. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    I think that probably the most burning topics were a little diminished
    in our agenda, and should be put higher:
    - cfg80211/nl80211 - much of the current wext begins to fall behind
    the emerging capabilities of the mac80211 and moreover - from future
    abilities and needs of future fullmac devices. The functionality and
    ABI to userspace must be finalized as soon as possible. The status of
    this is very unclear and should be treated more thoroughly, and it
    seems it can't be shared with 5 other topics in less than 2 hours.
    - fullmac support - seems to be very relevant in the next couple of
    years with the integration of wifi into low power devices running
    linux.

    I think that these two topics should take precedence over other topics
    that although important consume more time in the agenda, and are
    currently less likely to have impact on the average users such as 11s
    and 11w.

    it would be good if these topics will get substantial time slot in the agenda.
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  18. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    I think that probably the most burning topics were a little diminished
    in our agenda, and should be put higher:
    - cfg80211/nl80211 - much of the current wext begins to fall behind
    the emerging capabilities of the mac80211 and moreover - from future
    abilities and needs of future fullmac devices. The functionality and
    ABI to userspace must be finalized as soon as possible. The status of
    this is very unclear and should be treated more thoroughly, and it
    seems it can't be shared with 5 other topics in less than 2 hours.
    - fullmac support - seems to be very relevant in the next couple of
    years with the integration of wifi into low power devices running
    linux.

    I think that these two topics should take precedence over other topics
    that although important consume more time in the agenda, and are
    currently less likely to have impact on the average users such as 11s
    and 11w.

    it would be good if these topics will get substantial time slot in the agenda.
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  19. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 18:15 +0200, Michael Buesch wrote:
    > On Thursday 10 July 2008 18:12:32 Stefanik Gábor wrote:
    > > Some other topics which might be of interest/good to include:
    > > - New chipsets needing drivers (SiS 16x, Marvell, etc.)

    >
    > I have no idea what to discuss about non-existing drivers, really.
    > Something like: "Do we need that driver? Everyone votes YES and is happy"?


    Maybe during the week we could organize some hackfests to work on the
    Marvell/SiS/etc mac80211 drivers? Everyone bring their favorite
    non-working Marvell 88w83xx card and we make mrv8k our bitch or
    something like that.

    Dan

    > > - Radiotap enhancements

    >
    > What radiotap enhancements specifically? If it's just a field or a bit
    > to add, just mail the radiotap people. I think there's no need to discuss that
    > (except for with the radiotap people on their mailinglist).
    >
    > > - Userspace MLME: Plans and status

    >
    > Already on the list.
    >


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  20. Re: Linux Wireless Mini-Summit -- Ottawa -- July 22, 2008

    On Tue, 15 Jul 2008, Dan Williams wrote:

    > On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 18:15 +0200, Michael Buesch wrote:
    > > On Thursday 10 July 2008 18:12:32 Stefanik Gábor wrote:
    > > > Some other topics which might be of interest/good to include:
    > > > - New chipsets needing drivers (SiS 16x, Marvell, etc.)

    > >
    > > I have no idea what to discuss about non-existing drivers, really.
    > > Something like: "Do we need that driver? Everyone votes YES and is happy"?

    >
    > Maybe during the week we could organize some hackfests to work on the
    > Marvell/SiS/etc mac80211 drivers? Everyone bring their favorite
    > non-working Marvell 88w83xx card and we make mrv8k our bitch or
    > something like that.


    FYI...

    Lennert Buytenhek and I are writing a GPL driver for mv8300 class of
    Marvell WIFI chips right now, present and future versions. This is
    Marvell work as we work for Marvell. I have access to firmware sources,
    etc. but obviously cannot share them.

    We both will be in Ottawa next week.


    Nicolas


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