712/60 boot issue redux - HP UX

This is a discussion on 712/60 boot issue redux - HP UX ; I had posted earlier that I was trying, unsuccessfully, to boot my newly acquired 712/60. I have since then been successful getting a CD hooked up to the workstation and adding more RAM, now 96MB. Unfortunately, it appears that the ...

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Thread: 712/60 boot issue redux

  1. 712/60 boot issue redux

    I had posted earlier that I was trying, unsuccessfully, to boot my newly
    acquired 712/60. I have since then been successful getting a CD hooked
    up to the workstation and adding more RAM, now 96MB. Unfortunately, it
    appears that the C3325A disk is gone. While the system sees the disk,
    it reports it as 0GB and will not begin an installation process. It
    appears the hard disk is gone unless someone can suggest something that
    will try to resuscitate it? Failing any breakthrough with that idea, I
    need to get a replacement drive/s, does anyone have one or two of these?
    My goal is to install 11i and I understand it will require at least
    4GB. The question is how to achieve that, a couple 2GB drives or is
    there an appropriate 4GB drive I should search for? Any thoughts where
    to look for a good deal on one or two of these old drives? Thx

  2. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    jab-ph wrote:
    > I had posted earlier that I was trying, unsuccessfully, to boot my newly
    > acquired 712/60. I have since then been successful getting a CD hooked
    > up to the workstation and adding more RAM, now 96MB. Unfortunately, it
    > appears that the C3325A disk is gone. While the system sees the disk,
    > it reports it as 0GB and will not begin an installation process. It
    > appears the hard disk is gone unless someone can suggest something that
    > will try to resuscitate it? Failing any breakthrough with that idea, I
    > need to get a replacement drive/s, does anyone have one or two of these?
    > My goal is to install 11i and I understand it will require at least
    > 4GB. The question is how to achieve that, a couple 2GB drives or is
    > there an appropriate 4GB drive I should search for? Any thoughts where
    > to look for a good deal on one or two of these old drives? Thx


    Jab-ph,


    In the past I found some parts for my 712 on ebay.com. Is 11i not a bit
    new for a 712? As I recall 10.20 was the last supported version for 712's.


    Kind regards,


    Jan Gerrit

  3. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    In article , Jan Gerrit Kootstra
    writes:

    > In the past I found some parts for my 712 on ebay.com. Is 11i not a bit
    > new for a 712? As I recall 10.20 was the last supported version for 712's.


    at least plain 11 works just fine.

  4. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    In article , jab-ph
    writes:
    > My goal is to install 11i and I understand it will require at least
    > 4GB.


    I don't think its really necessary, but it leaves some headroom
    for your own activities.

    > The question is how to achieve that, a couple 2GB drives or is
    > there an appropriate 4GB drive I should search for? Any thoughts where
    > to look for a good deal on one or two of these old drives? Thx


    usual suspect, eBay. Or check some local store selling refurbished equipment.
    I put a 4GB disk (IBM I believe) in my 712/100, works just fine.
    Problem might be that "newer" disks have this 68-pin SCSI connectors
    whereas the 712 still has the 50-pin cables, so you would need
    an adapter, preferably some with a 90 deg offset due to the limited space.
    You find some on eBay too, from time to time.

  5. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    Michael Kraemer wrote:
    > In article , jab-ph
    > writes:
    >
    >> My goal is to install 11i and I understand it will require at least
    >>4GB.

    >
    >
    > I don't think its really necessary, but it leaves some headroom
    > for your own activities.
    >
    >
    >>The question is how to achieve that, a couple 2GB drives or is
    >>there an appropriate 4GB drive I should search for? Any thoughts where
    >>to look for a good deal on one or two of these old drives? Thx

    >
    >
    > usual suspect, eBay. Or check some local store selling refurbished equipment.
    > I put a 4GB disk (IBM I believe) in my 712/100, works just fine.
    > Problem might be that "newer" disks have this 68-pin SCSI connectors
    > whereas the 712 still has the 50-pin cables, so you would need
    > an adapter, preferably some with a 90 deg offset due to the limited space.
    > You find some on eBay too, from time to time.


    Is there a specific spec for a 4GB disk that I should look for? I
    thought that I'd have to get either an identical replacement, i.e.
    C3325A, or 2 of them to get the desired 4GB. Is it a f/w scsi or???

  6. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    Michael Kraemer wrote:
    > In article , jab-ph
    > writes:
    >
    >> My goal is to install 11i and I understand it will require at least
    >>4GB.

    >
    >
    > I don't think its really necessary, but it leaves some headroom
    > for your own activities.
    >
    >
    >>The question is how to achieve that, a couple 2GB drives or is
    >>there an appropriate 4GB drive I should search for? Any thoughts where
    >>to look for a good deal on one or two of these old drives? Thx

    >
    >
    > usual suspect, eBay. Or check some local store selling refurbished equipment.
    > I put a 4GB disk (IBM I believe) in my 712/100, works just fine.
    > Problem might be that "newer" disks have this 68-pin SCSI connectors
    > whereas the 712 still has the 50-pin cables, so you would need
    > an adapter, preferably some with a 90 deg offset due to the limited space.
    > You find some on eBay too, from time to time.

    There are some 50 pin, 4GB IBM drives avaliable presently. I thought HP
    (and other vendors) "tweaked" OEM drives with firmware etc, and
    therefore made it impossible to use "non-approved/tested" peripherals?

  7. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    > There are some 50 pin, 4GB IBM drives avaliable presently. I
    > thought HP (and other vendors) "tweaked" OEM drives with firmware
    > etc, and therefore made it impossible to use "non-approved/tested"
    > peripherals?


    That has not been the case with HP-UX for discs at least since we
    stopped using hard partitions - IIRC. Do make sure the "flavor" of
    SCSI matches Slight drift... just saying "f/w" is insufficient.
    For a while there, HP workstations had Fast, Wide, _DIFFERENTIAL_ SCSI
    busses - what I think today is called HVD or High Voltage
    Differential. That is electrically _incompatible_ with LVD or Low
    Voltage Differential discs which IIRC are presently the SCSI norm.

    Of course, at the time, thanks to cable length limits, HP didn't think
    that anyone would ever use fast, wide, single-ended, for external
    mechanisms so the SCSI ports on the earlieish PA-RISC workstations
    simply said "Fast-Wide"...

    rick jones
    --
    Wisdom Teeth are impacted, people are affected by the effects of events.
    these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway...
    feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...

  8. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    Rick Jones wrote:
    >>There are some 50 pin, 4GB IBM drives avaliable presently. I
    >>thought HP (and other vendors) "tweaked" OEM drives with firmware
    >>etc, and therefore made it impossible to use "non-approved/tested"
    >>peripherals?

    >
    >
    > That has not been the case with HP-UX for discs at least since we
    > stopped using hard partitions - IIRC. Do make sure the "flavor" of
    > SCSI matches Slight drift... just saying "f/w" is insufficient.
    > For a while there, HP workstations had Fast, Wide, _DIFFERENTIAL_ SCSI
    > busses - what I think today is called HVD or High Voltage
    > Differential. That is electrically _incompatible_ with LVD or Low
    > Voltage Differential discs which IIRC are presently the SCSI norm.
    >
    > Of course, at the time, thanks to cable length limits, HP didn't think
    > that anyone would ever use fast, wide, single-ended, for external
    > mechanisms so the SCSI ports on the earlieish PA-RISC workstations
    > simply said "Fast-Wide"...
    >
    > rick jones


    I missed the bid on the IBM drives but there are some Hitachi Barracuda
    4GB drives, Ultra-SCSI. What's the chance of one of these working in
    the 712/60?

  9. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    jab-ph wrote:
    > I missed the bid on the IBM drives but there are some Hitachi
    > Barracuda 4GB drives, Ultra-SCSI. What's the chance of one of these
    > working in the 712/60?


    IIRC, "Ultra-SCSI" typically means LVD. LVD can work with SE
    (Single-Ended) busses. What I cannot recall is if the SCSI flavor in
    the 712/60 was SE or HVD. It was just too long ago...

    rick jones
    --
    No need to believe in either side, or any side. There is no cause.
    There's only yourself. The belief is in your own precision. - Jobert
    these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway...
    feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...

  10. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    On 2005-11-08, Jan Gerrit Kootstra wrote:
    > jab-ph wrote:
    >> I had posted earlier that I was trying, unsuccessfully, to boot my newly
    >> acquired 712/60. I have since then been successful getting a CD hooked
    >> up to the workstation and adding more RAM, now 96MB. Unfortunately, it
    >> appears that the C3325A disk is gone. While the system sees the disk,
    >> it reports it as 0GB and will not begin an installation process. It
    >> appears the hard disk is gone unless someone can suggest something that
    >> will try to resuscitate it? Failing any breakthrough with that idea, I
    >> need to get a replacement drive/s, does anyone have one or two of these?
    >> My goal is to install 11i and I understand it will require at least
    >> 4GB. The question is how to achieve that, a couple 2GB drives or is
    >> there an appropriate 4GB drive I should search for? Any thoughts where
    >> to look for a good deal on one or two of these old drives? Thx

    >
    > Jab-ph,
    >
    >
    > In the past I found some parts for my 712 on ebay.com. Is 11i not a bit
    > new for a 712? As I recall 10.20 was the last supported version for 712's.
    >
    >

    HP-UX 11i works fine albeit a bit slowly on the 712/80 with 128MB that
    I have.

    For the hard drives any single-ended or LVD (that support fall back to SE
    mode, that probably mean all of them) should work.
    I currently use a 9GB ultra-wide SCSI with a wide to narrow adapter in my
    712/80 (some foam cutting may be required due to the wide to narrow
    adapter).


    --
    Hardware, n.: The parts of a computer system that can be kicked.
    http://www.krynos.org/ - ICQ: 2295979 / MSN: krynos42@hotmail.com

  11. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    Rick Jones schrieb:

    > jab-ph wrote:
    >
    >>I missed the bid on the IBM drives but there are some Hitachi
    >>Barracuda 4GB drives, Ultra-SCSI. What's the chance of one of these
    >>working in the 712/60?

    >
    >
    > IIRC, "Ultra-SCSI" typically means LVD. LVD can work with SE
    > (Single-Ended) busses. What I cannot recall is if the SCSI flavor in
    > the 712/60 was SE or HVD. It was just too long ago...


    It's Fast SCSI-2, SE, 8bit.

    --
    Uli

  12. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    jab-ph wrote:

    > I had posted earlier that I was trying, unsuccessfully, to boot my newly
    > acquired 712/60. I have since then been successful getting a CD hooked
    > up to the workstation and adding more RAM, now 96MB. Unfortunately, it
    > appears that the C3325A disk is gone. While the system sees the disk,
    > it reports it as 0GB and will not begin an installation process. It


    This indicates the platters are stuch in the drive: During its previous live,
    the grease in the bearings of the platters is cooked. Once it is cooled of, it
    becomes solid and fixes the platters. This has been a known issue even while the
    machines where still under guarantee. During the current century, this problem
    has been a reason to replace the 712.

    Some say you should twist the disk around the platters axle. Others say this
    will also scratch the heads over the platters... I just opened the disk in a
    relative dust-free environment and give the platters a gentle twist. Then close
    the disk and now the disk runs fine for 2 years. (well, this is at home,
    definitly not commercial production...) I have to say the power-off time is
    alwasy less than 1 hour, just to avoid problems.

    > appears the hard disk is gone unless someone can suggest something that
    > will try to resuscitate it? Failing any breakthrough with that idea, I
    > need to get a replacement drive/s, does anyone have one or two of these?
    > My goal is to install 11i and I understand it will require at least
    > 4GB. The question is how to achieve that, a couple 2GB drives or is
    > there an appropriate 4GB drive I should search for? Any thoughts where
    > to look for a good deal on one or two of these old drives? Thx


    I think any used disk below 10 GByte should be relative easy/cheap to get. To
    get anythin usefull, I say 4 GByte is a minimum.


    CBee

  13. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    In article , jab-ph
    writes:

    > There are some 50 pin, 4GB IBM drives avaliable presently. I thought HP
    > (and other vendors) "tweaked" OEM drives with firmware etc, and
    > therefore made it impossible to use "non-approved/tested" peripherals?


    If they are a few $ only, try them.
    Special "tweaking" of peripherals was no longer popular at the time
    the 712 came out. My box runs a non-HP 4GB drive (IBM I believe) just fine.
    My older 68k based boxes seem to be a lot more picky about which drive to
    accept for installing HP-UX.

  14. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    jab-ph wrote:

    > I had posted earlier that I was trying, unsuccessfully, to boot my newly
    > acquired 712/60. I have since then been successful getting a CD hooked
    > up to the workstation and adding more RAM, now 96MB. Unfortunately, it
    > appears that the C3325A disk is gone. While the system sees the disk,
    > it reports it as 0GB and will not begin an installation process. It
    > appears the hard disk is gone unless someone can suggest something that
    > will try to resuscitate it?


    Connect it to a PC SCSI controller or an SGI IRIX system and do a low
    level format...

    > Failing any breakthrough with that idea, I
    > need to get a replacement drive/s, does anyone have one or two of these?
    > My goal is to install 11i and I understand it will require at least
    > 4GB. The question is how to achieve that, a couple 2GB drives or is
    > there an appropriate 4GB drive I should search for? Any thoughts where
    > to look for a good deal on one or two of these old drives?


    Just buy any 3,5" SCSI disk drive you want, preferrably with 50pin
    connector (there isn't much room for adapters in the 712 without
    fiddling around with the styro foam). You don't need a HP disk drive...

    Benjamin

  15. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    Rick Jones wrote:

    >>I missed the bid on the IBM drives but there are some Hitachi
    >>Barracuda 4GB drives, Ultra-SCSI. What's the chance of one of these
    >>working in the 712/60?

    >
    >
    > IIRC, "Ultra-SCSI" typically means LVD.


    No. Ultra means SE SCSI with 20MHz (resulting in 20MB/s over a 50pin
    cable or 40MB/s over a 68pin cable which is called "Ultra/Wide").

    > LVD can work with SE
    > (Single-Ended) busses. What I cannot recall is if the SCSI flavor in
    > the 712/60 was SE or HVD. It was just too long ago...


    Single ended.

    Benjamin

  16. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    How would a low level format via a scsi PC connection be accomplished,
    i.e. what command in windows or DOS?
    >
    > Connect it to a PC SCSI controller or an SGI IRIX system and do a low
    > level format...
    >


    >
    > Benjamin


  17. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    jab-ph wrote:

    > How would a low level format via a scsi PC connection be accomplished,
    > i.e. what command in windows or DOS?


    Remove the disk from the 712/60, connect it to a PC that has an SCSI
    controller, enter the controller BIOS and start a low level format on
    that disk, followed by a surface scan...

    But then, 9GB and even 18GB disk drives are so cheap available on ebay
    and from other surces that it's certainly not worth to waste any time on
    the original drive...

    Benjamin

  18. Re: 712/60 boot issue redux

    jab-ph schrieb:
    > How would a low level format via a scsi PC connection be accomplished,
    > i.e. what command in windows or DOS?


    Hit Ctr-A during BIOS scan of an Adaptec HBA for e.g.
    There is no "command" because this is specific for the SCSI HBA.
    llformat is usually run from plain DOS. No Windows, no mouse...

    --
    Uli

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