Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th. - Hewlett Packard

This is a discussion on Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th. - Hewlett Packard ; Jim asks, "How many "new" installations of MPE have there been in the last seven years?" Since 2001, I have personally been responsible for new installations of 19 N-Class systems, 2 A-Class systems and 12 K-Class systems. Each HP3000 system ...

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Thread: Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

  1. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    Jim asks, "How many "new" installations of MPE have there been in the last
    seven years?"

    Since 2001, I have personally been responsible for new installations of 19
    N-Class systems, 2 A-Class systems and 12 K-Class systems. Each HP3000
    system was attached to a very expensive HP XP Disk Array. All of the A- and
    N-Class systems were purchased from HP (until end of sales in October 2003.)
    Each system and array has been under support with HP (and will remain until
    we can no longer purchase support.) We still support 31 systems and 12 disk
    arrays.

    We've done our part. What have you done to support MPE lately? Or is the
    real question is... What has HP done to support us lately?

    Mark Ranft
    (612) 804-2774
    mark@pro3k.com

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  2. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    --- On Tue, 10/28/08, Mark Ranft wrote:

    > Since 2001, I have personally been responsible for new installations of
    > 19 N-Class systems, 2 A-Class systems and 12 K-Class systems.


    Even ignoring the questionable K-Class (is that even a 3000? or do you mean pre-A/N class 9x8, 9x9?) that is quite impressive. There must have been a very convincing piece of software only available on the 3000 to spur a company to abandon some other hardware platform for the 3000 or install the 3000 as their first computer system. Or were these sales into existing 3000 shops? When I said "new" I meant sales of 3000's into companies that never used the 3000 before or never used computers before. At least, that is what I would consider "new".

    > We've done our part. What have you done to support MPE lately?


    You mean BMC doesn't count? :-)

    Seriously though, what can those of us who relied on the 3000 to provide a living do? Myself, I've been retraining on newer technology which admittedly doesn't do much for the 3000. After the 2001 annoucement, I can't imagine trying to sell any CFO on the viability of the 3000 as a "new" system (I can see the advantage to maintaining archives on the 3000, although I think a convincing argument could be made for moving historical data from the 3000 to a more readily accessible data store).

    And where were you when Peter proposed MPE as a service on Linux back in June?

    > Or is the real question is... What has HP done to support us lately?


    Indeed.

    Jim




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  3. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    The 'questionable K-Class' systems were all 989-650's. Excluding the
    largest Corporate Business systems (997/1000 and 997/1200), these are the
    fastest pre-N-Class HP3000 systems made. My company purchased one new from
    HP in early 2001. I believe it cost over $200K and the XP256 disk array we
    attached it to was another $300K. That is just over seven years ago. (But
    I didn't specifically mention that in my prior e-mail.)

    The software is airline industry related.

    Why would you expect anyone to be purchasing 'new' HP3000 systems? Starting
    about the time Hewlett Packard came out with HP-UX, HP stopped advertising
    the 3000. I heard it was confusing for customers to hear mixed messages
    from HP. (One side of the mouth saying HP3000 was good and another side
    saying Open Systems are good.) On the other side of the coin, IBM has been
    promoting and selling AS400 systems to their loyal customer base.

    I think we are all on the same team here. We are all frustrated. I wish HP
    would wake up and change their decision to drop support on the HP3000.
    Wouldn't that be the best possible solution? But that is not likely to
    happen. Over the years I have learned to only worry about the things I can
    change.

    I will always be loyal and dedicated to the HP 3000. I may not always get
    enough work from it to make a living, but we'll see.

    Mark Ranft

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  4. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    Hello Friends,

    I am glad to see Mark report on his installations for his client, a
    major airline transaction processor. I have heard from more than one
    3000 community member about new installations of HP 3000s. So new
    installs are a non-zero number. (Oh, and to explain, a K-Class 3000
    is a Series 9xx system. The same kind that sell for $1,800 in their
    very smallest size, more than a decade after HP introduced them.)

    At this stage of the 3000's life, these numbers are not what matters
    anymore, although they are a very easy metric to count.

    I'll have more to say about this on our blog today, but it's too
    early to tote up the HP 3000's platform value. In case you haven't
    noticed, the world's economy experienced a reboot over the past 30
    days, and people are revising their assessments concerning computers.
    HP has not sold an HP 3000 for five years, as of this Friday. The
    number of new systems is of far less importance than the number of
    old experts. From the looks of the traffic on this newsgroup/list,
    that group is retaining its critical mass.

    Speedware has been making a business out of employing HP 3000 experts
    for several years. Next month in our printed issue I've got
    interviews with a few new one-man support suppliers, serving
    companies of all sizes, and Adager tells me they encounter new
    vendors like this while Adager works with its customers. Jim's
    success in learning new technologies is a good one which will have
    value to a 3000 installation, should HP really keep a promise to sell
    an emulator license for MPE -- and some company release an emulator.

    HP will not be doing anything more to support the 3000 with anything
    new, starting in 2009 -- with the exception of what OpenMPE can wrest
    in promises for intellectual property use of MPE/iX. That's what
    happens when you shut down your development labs. The lights go out
    on HP's 3000 creativity at the end of this year. "What's new lately"
    is a question which HP answered for the last time in the summer of
    2007, when the SCSI pass through driver was released.

    Not to hijack this thread, but has anyone experienced the value of
    that SCSI engineering? Craig Fairchild of HP said last summer that
    using this final gift "is not for the faint of heart." The experts on
    this list have shown very strong hearts, older yes, but still true.

    Best to all, and tell us what you're doing with your 3000,

    Ron Seybold
    3000 NewsWire

    300newswire.com/blog

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  5. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    To clarify, I believe the K-class 3000 is more specific than a 9xx
    model - rather, it is a series 9x9.

    Specifically, this would include the 929, 939, 959, 969, 979, and 989
    models and all the various hyphenated versions therein - such as, for
    example, the 969-KS400.

    And, if my memory serves me correctly, the K-class EXCLUDES the model
    949, which I think appeared several generations of 3000 models
    earlier - well before the 9x7 and 9x8 models, which are also NOT
    considered as K-class. (I believe the 9x8 were designated as
    NOVA-class, but I'm not certain).



    At 02:43 PM 08-10-28, Ron Seybold wrote:

    >........... So new installs are a non-zero number. (Oh, and to
    >explain, a K-Class 3000 is a Series 9xx system. The same kind that
    >sell for $1,800 in their very smallest size, more than a decade
    >after HP introduced them.)


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Gilles Schipper
    GSA Inc.
    HP System Administration Specialists
    300 John Street, Box 87651 Thornhill, ON Canada L3T 7R4
    Voice: 905.889.3000 Fax: 905.889.3001
    email: gilles@gsainc.com web: http://www.gsainc.com
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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  6. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    Very minor correction, the K class refers to chassis, which is 9x9 only on
    the 3000 side.A It's chassis is identical to the 9000 K class.

    John Lee
    Preferred Systems Maintenance, don't call us vaske anymore!


    t 01:43 PM 10/28/08 -0500, Ron Seybold wrote:
    >Hello Friends,
    >
    >I am glad to see Mark report on his installations for his client, a major
    >airline transaction processor. I have heard from more than one 3000
    >community member about new installations of HP 3000s. So new installs are
    >a non-zero number. (Oh, and to explain, a K-Class 3000 is a Series 9xx
    >system. The same kind that sell for $1,800 in their very smallest size,
    >more than a decade after HP introduced them.)
    >
    >At this stage of the 3000's life, these numbers are not what matters
    >anymore, although they are a very easy metric to count.
    >
    >I'll have more to say about this on our blog today, but it's too early to
    >tote up the HP 3000's platform value. In case you haven't noticed, the
    >world's economy experienced a reboot over the past 30 days, and people are
    >revising their assessments concerning computers. HP has not sold an HP
    >3000 for five years, as of this Friday. The number of new systems is of
    >far less importance than the number of old experts. From the looks of the
    >traffic on this newsgroup/list, that group is retaining its critical mass.
    >
    >Speedware has been making a business out of employing HP 3000 experts for
    >several years. Next month in our printed issue I've got interviews with a
    >few new one-man support suppliers, serving companies of all sizes, and
    >Adager tells me they encounter new vendors like this while Adager works
    >with its customers. Jim's success in learning new technologies is a good
    >one which will have value to a 3000 installation, should HP really keep a
    >promise to sell an emulator license for MPE -- and some company release an
    >emulator.
    >
    >HP will not be doing anything more to support the 3000 with anything new,
    >starting in 2009 -- with the exception of what OpenMPE can wrest in
    >promises for intellectual property use of MPE/iX. That's what happens when
    >you shut down your development labs. The lights go out on HP's 3000
    >creativity at the end of this year. "What's new lately" is a question
    >which HP answered for the last time in the summer of 2007, when the SCSI
    >pass through driver was released.
    >
    >Not to hijack this thread, but has anyone experienced the value of that
    >SCSI engineering? Craig Fairchild of HP said last summer that using this
    >final gift "is not for the faint of heart." The experts on this list have
    >shown very strong hearts, older yes, but still true.
    >
    >Best to all, and tell us what you're doing with your 3000,
    >
    >Ron Seybold
    >3000 NewsWire
    >
    >300newswire.com/blog
    >
    >* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    >* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
    >
    >
    >
    >--
    >No virus found in this incoming message.
    >Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.4/1752 - Release
    >Date: 10/28/08 10:04 AM


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  7. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Ron Seybold wrote:

    > Hello Friends,
    >
    > I am glad to see Mark report on his installations for his client, a major
    > airline transaction processor. I have heard from more than one 3000
    > community member about new installations of HP 3000s. So new installs are a
    > non-zero number. (Oh, and to explain, a K-Class 3000 is a Series 9xx system.
    > The same kind that sell for $1,800 in their very smallest size, more than a
    > decade after HP introduced them.)



    From HP's business perspective, what is the NET number of installs? To what
    extent does this affect HP's bottom line?

    At this stage of the 3000's life, these numbers are not what matters
    > anymore, although they are a very easy metric to count.



    What is this easy method of counting? Does include the ability to count
    retired HP3000s?


    > I'll have more to say about this on our blog today, but it's too early to
    > tote up the HP 3000's platform value. In case you haven't noticed, the
    > world's economy experienced a reboot over the past 30 days, and people are
    > revising their assessments concerning computers. HP has not sold an HP 3000
    > for five years, as of this Friday. The number of new systems is of far less
    > importance than the number of old experts. From the looks of the traffic on
    > this newsgroup/list, that group is retaining its critical mass.



    Importance and critical mass for what?


    > Speedware has been making a business out of employing HP 3000 experts for
    > several years. Next month in our printed issue I've got interviews with a
    > few new one-man support suppliers, serving companies of all sizes, and
    > Adager tells me they encounter new vendors like this while Adager works with
    > its customers. Jim's success in learning new technologies is a good one
    > which will have value to a 3000 installation, should HP really keep a
    > promise to sell an emulator license for MPE -- and some company release an
    > emulator.



    A good emulator is QEMM. Some work years ago was done to add PA-RISC to
    it. AFAIK, the work stalled and died. One could go with a commercially
    produced emulator, but you would have another master to that you would have
    to answer to.

    With a working emulator, you have a mountain of hardware driver code that is
    growing old and obsolete and little hope of keeping up with the new hardware
    continuously being redesigned and brand new devices. Without driver support
    of these new hardware marvels, what possible business case can you make for
    MPE?

    HP will not be doing anything more to support the 3000 with anything new,
    > starting in 2009 -- with the exception of what OpenMPE can wrest in promises
    > for intellectual property use of MPE/iX. That's what happens when you shut
    > down your development labs. The lights go out on HP's 3000 creativity at the
    > end of this year. "What's new lately" is a question which HP answered for
    > the last time in the summer of 2007, when the SCSI pass through driver was
    > released.
    >
    > Not to hijack this thread, but has anyone experienced the value of that
    > SCSI engineering? Craig Fairchild of HP said last summer that using this
    > final gift "is not for the faint of heart." The experts on this list have
    > shown very strong hearts, older yes, but still true.



    This is all old technology that is just now being added to MPE. Not many on
    this list knows what a SCSI tag queue, or any SCSI internal, is without
    looking up. In solving business IT problems, no one should have to know.
    As much as I like playing with OS internals, it is a big distraction to the
    solving of business problems. In my experience, mixing of techincal code
    with business applications is a very bad thing for many reasons.

    Best to all, and tell us what you're doing with your 3000,


    That sounds like encouragement to "play the fiddle while Rome burns".

    Peter

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