Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th. - Hewlett Packard

This is a discussion on Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th. - Hewlett Packard ; Donna writes: > Those are the rules we have to play by, unfortunately. > > I wish we were allowed to talk about what we're working on to be able to > give y'all (I don't know if that word ...

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Thread: Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

  1. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    Donna writes:

    > Those are the rules we have to play by, unfortunately.
    >
    > I wish we were allowed to talk about what we're working on to be able to
    > give y'all (I don't know if that word has a british translation ;-) a sense
    > of what's being done and what progress is being made.
    >
    > I guess one might be able to say "hmmm...they're meeting with hp a
    > lot...and maybe that means something is happening"?


    As I've written before, having the OpenMPE committee agree to sign non-
    disclosure agreements was one of the dumbest mistakes that the committee
    could have ever made, and in the end, could well be attributed to be the
    single greatest contributor to the death of MPE, beyond HP's own mishandlings
    of the product.

    However, there is a reasonable alternative that might help remedy the
    situation for all concerned and still work within HP's rules: have everyone on
    HP3000-L sign a non-disclosure agreement, just as the board has done.
    Secondly, detailed records of the minutes would be posted on passworded
    website so that only authorized users could read the minutes, but where that
    password be given out to only those who signed the HP NDA.

    The punishment for anyone breaking this NDA could easily be made quite
    severe. Anyone found in violation of the NDA, for any reason, could be banned
    from HP's customer list, so that HP would never again sell a new HP3000 to
    them for all time in the future.

    This simple solution would seem to work in everyone's favor.

    Wirt Atmar

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  2. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    I'm starting to lose track of how many people have come to me in the last
    few days whining about "the board signing the cda/nda".

    in 2004 (go check the minute archives) hp was pressuring the board to sign
    an nda, essentially saying sign or we won't talk to you. you can easily see
    in the archives where the board DID approve the WORDING of the nda (after
    extensive negociations with hp) but NO WHERE will you see that the board
    SIGNED an nda.

    because IT DID NOT HAPPEN!

    additionally, http://www.openmpe.org/minutes/Minutes20051215.htm clearly
    shows that hp relented.

    hp and the board have operated all these years under a 'gentlepersons'
    understanding that our conversations are private. it's been this
    understanding that fostered an atmosphere of trust for hp, showing that
    openmpe was/is/and remains serious about our quest to preserve mpe's future.

    no one is more frustrated than the board about how long this process has
    taken. but I'll dare to say that it has only been openmpe's board that's
    had the dogged determination to 'keep after hp' regarding mpe. when anyone
    else can show that they've continuously worked for hp for one purpose, then
    maybe the nay-saying and otherwise faithless support of openmpe will be
    justified.

    - d 'speaking for myself and not the board'

    ---
    Donna Hofmeister
    Allegro Consultants, Inc.
    408-252-2330


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    > Behalf Of Wirt Atmar
    > Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 1:50 PM
    > To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    > Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.
    >
    > Donna writes:
    >
    > > Those are the rules we have to play by, unfortunately.
    > >
    > > I wish we were allowed to talk about what we're working on to be able

    > to
    > > give y'all (I don't know if that word has a british translation ;-) a

    > sense
    > > of what's being done and what progress is being made.
    > >
    > > I guess one might be able to say "hmmm...they're meeting with hp a
    > > lot...and maybe that means something is happening"?

    >
    > As I've written before, having the OpenMPE committee agree to sign non-
    > disclosure agreements was one of the dumbest mistakes that the
    > committee
    > could have ever made, and in the end, could well be attributed to be
    > the
    > single greatest contributor to the death of MPE, beyond HP's own
    > mishandlings
    > of the product.
    >
    > However, there is a reasonable alternative that might help remedy the
    > situation for all concerned and still work within HP's rules: have
    > everyone on
    > HP3000-L sign a non-disclosure agreement, just as the board has done.
    > Secondly, detailed records of the minutes would be posted on passworded
    > website so that only authorized users could read the minutes, but where
    > that
    > password be given out to only those who signed the HP NDA.
    >
    > The punishment for anyone breaking this NDA could easily be made quite
    > severe. Anyone found in violation of the NDA, for any reason, could be
    > banned
    > from HP's customer list, so that HP would never again sell a new HP3000
    > to
    > them for all time in the future.
    >
    > This simple solution would seem to work in everyone's favor.
    >
    > Wirt Atmar
    >
    > * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    > * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  3. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    Donna,
    Good for you! I support you and applaud the OpenMPE Board's
    efforts. It takes a lot of time and courage to continue to fight for
    something we believe in, and need to keep our HP3000's running beyond
    the next few years.

    Thank you all for your hard work.

    Connie Sellitto
    Programmer/Analyst
    Cat Fanciers' Association, Inc.
    732-528-9797 ext 18
    Email: cds@cfa.org

    On Oct 27, 2008, at 9:48 AM, donna hofmeister wrote:

    > I'm starting to lose track of how many people have come to me in
    > the last
    > few days whining about "the board signing the cda/nda".
    >
    > in 2004 (go check the minute archives) hp was pressuring the board
    > to sign
    > an nda, essentially saying sign or we won't talk to you. you can
    > easily see
    > in the archives where the board DID approve the WORDING of the nda
    > (after
    > extensive negociations with hp) but NO WHERE will you see that the
    > board
    > SIGNED an nda.
    >
    > because IT DID NOT HAPPEN!
    >
    >


    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  4. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    Donna,

    Thank you very much for setting the record straight. At least now we
    can squabble and b**ch over the facts, not mythology and legend.


    On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 8:48 AM, donna hofmeister wrote:
    > I'm starting to lose track of how many people have come to me in the last
    > few days whining about "the board signing the cda/nda".
    >
    > in 2004 (go check the minute archives) hp was pressuring the board to sign
    > an nda, essentially saying sign or we won't talk to you. you can easily see
    > in the archives where the board DID approve the WORDING of the nda (after
    > extensive negociations with hp) but NO WHERE will you see that the board
    > SIGNED an nda.
    >
    > because IT DID NOT HAPPEN!
    >
    > additionally, http://www.openmpe.org/minutes/Minutes20051215.htm clearly
    > shows that hp relented.
    >
    > hp and the board have operated all these years under a 'gentlepersons'
    > understanding that our conversations are private. it's been this
    > understanding that fostered an atmosphere of trust for hp, showing that
    > openmpe was/is/and remains serious about our quest to preserve mpe's future.
    >
    > no one is more frustrated than the board about how long this process has
    > taken. but I'll dare to say that it has only been openmpe's board that's
    > had the dogged determination to 'keep after hp' regarding mpe. when anyone
    > else can show that they've continuously worked for hp for one purpose, then
    > maybe the nay-saying and otherwise faithless support of openmpe will be
    > justified.
    >
    > - d 'speaking for myself and not the board'
    >



    --
    "If hard work were such a wonderful thing, you'd think rich people
    would have kept it all for themselves" - Lane Kirkland

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  5. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    > Behalf Of donna hofmeister
    > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 8:48 AM
    > To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    > Subject: Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.
    >
    > I'm starting to lose track of how many people have come to me in the
    > last
    > few days whining about "the board signing the cda/nda".
    >
    > in 2004 (go check the minute archives) hp was pressuring the board to
    > sign
    > an nda, essentially saying sign or we won't talk to you. you can
    > easily see
    > in the archives where the board DID approve the WORDING of the nda
    > (after
    > extensive negociations with hp) but NO WHERE will you see that the
    > board
    > SIGNED an nda.
    >
    > because IT DID NOT HAPPEN!
    >
    > additionally, http://www.openmpe.org/minutes/Minutes20051215.htm
    > clearly
    > shows that hp relented.
    >
    > hp and the board have operated all these years under a 'gentlepersons'
    > understanding that our conversations are private. it's been this
    > understanding that fostered an atmosphere of trust for hp, showing

    that
    > openmpe was/is/and remains serious about our quest to preserve mpe's
    > future.
    >


    I am sorry but:

    http://raven.utc.edu/cgi-bin/WA.EXE?...OPENMPE&P=R934

    Seems to indicate that even though you did not sign any such agreement,
    you verbally committed to it. The minutes link you post above shows a
    one line comment, with no explanation, that does nothing more than state
    that HP has stopped demanding a 'signed' agreement to replace your
    'verbal' agreement.

    Either way the board apparently feels as bound by the verbal agreement
    as they would a signed agreement as they have not shared any real
    information with the members, without HP's permission, and obviously
    holds their interests as paramount.

    Bottom line:

    The board has a better relationship with HP than the members.

    Comments are my own, not my employer's... etc.

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  6. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    > Bottom line:
    >
    > The board has a better relationship with HP than the members.


    This is probably as it should be, I would imagine it better that HP had
    dealings with a board rather than a mob. OpenMPE is a Corporation,
    after all.

    That said, if there are only 89 "voting" OpenMPE members (as of last
    election), and 2 board members rotate out in of the Board every year
    since 2001, then about 15% of the "voting" OpenMPE population will have
    ended up being part of the process!

    It follows then, it is probably a good idea for OpenMPE Board Members to
    serve one or two terms. (Which it turns out it happens to be, much of
    the time.)

    Tracy Johnson
    Business Analyst
    Measurement Specialties, Inc.
    1000 Lucas Way
    Hampton, VA 23666
    Office 1-757-766-4318
    tracy.johnson@meas-spec.com
    www.meas-spec.com


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  7. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 12:18 PM, Johnson, Tracy <
    Tracy.Johnson@meas-spec.com> wrote:

    > That said, if there are only 89 "voting" OpenMPE members (as of last
    > election), and 2 board members rotate out in of the Board every year
    > since 2001, then about 15% of the "voting" OpenMPE population will have
    > ended up being part of the process!
    >


    What does the graph of "voting" OpenMPE members look like over time? I
    think your 15% maybe a bit pessimistic in the longer term.

    More importantly, what does the graph of "paying" HP3000 users look like
    over time? This is essential when HP makes decisions on placation vs. doing
    something, especially when overlaid with HP's HP3000/MPE costs. These
    graphs are something HP looks at every budgeting and business strategy
    cycle, and without an upside, or some brilliant plan to create an upside
    that HP execs will buy into, what do you think they are going to do?

    Placation is relatively cheap, doing something requires the promise of
    profit to undertake, and the higher the risk of failure, the higher the
    potential profit needs to be. The things that loom prominently in the risk
    assessment are how to keep hardware (PA-RISC) and software (MPE) competive
    profitably with the competion (Intel, AMD, IBM, Sun; and Linux, MS Windows,
    Solaris). Therein lies the fate of MPE and the HP3000.

    Peter

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
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  8. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:41 PM, John Lee wrote:

    > OpenMPE just wants the source code, as I understand it. Then they'll run
    > with it. HP is not being asked to do anything. In fact, I think it's the
    > opposite of asking HP to make an investment...OpenMPE wants to take over MPE
    > in its entirety and HP can be rid of it.
    >


    Seems simple. The "devil is in the details" and having OpenMPE take
    possession can potentially also create some legal problems which would be an
    unrecoverable cost. There was also some embarrassing comments embedded in
    the code the last time I looked. The amount of code is large for Classic
    MPE alone, then add in subsystems, POSIX, some 3rd licensed code, etc. and
    you have quite a pile that has to be reviewed technically and legally; then
    technical and legal fixes need to be applied as necessary. I have a feeling
    that situation only gets worse, and there is less people in HP that are
    interested in spending time dealing with it over time. Just my
    not-so-humble-opinion though.

    From HP's POV, a quiet death is the least risky and least costly
    alternative, IMNSHO. This equation becomes more so as time passes and
    customer attrition continues.

    I wish the situation was different, as I really like MPE as a business
    application development and operation environment. I have been told that
    the last chance to rescue MPE from the road to oblivion was in 2001. I now
    think that he probably was right. In hindsight, I should have backed
    Alfredo's bid to stop PA-RISC development and continue with their 32bit
    version of their stack architecture CPU (aka Classic) know as Vision, IIRC.
    Not that my backing would have made much difference though.

    Peter

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  9. Re: OpenMPE Minutes for October 9th.

    Peter-

    OpenMPE just wants the source code, as I understand it. Then they'll run
    with it. HP is not being asked to do anything. In fact, I think it's the
    opposite of asking HP to make an investment...OpenMPE wants to take over
    MPE in its entirety and HP can be rid of it.

    I'm sure I'll be corrected if I've misspoken!

    John Lee

    At 02:24 PM 10/27/08 -0700, Peter M. Eggers wrote:
    >On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 12:18 PM, Johnson, Tracy <
    >Tracy.Johnson@meas-spec.com> wrote:
    >
    > > That said, if there are only 89 "voting" OpenMPE members (as of last
    > > election), and 2 board members rotate out in of the Board every year
    > > since 2001, then about 15% of the "voting" OpenMPE population will have
    > > ended up being part of the process!
    > >

    >
    >What does the graph of "voting" OpenMPE members look like over time? I
    >think your 15% maybe a bit pessimistic in the longer term.
    >
    >More importantly, what does the graph of "paying" HP3000 users look like
    >over time? This is essential when HP makes decisions on placation vs. doing
    >something, especially when overlaid with HP's HP3000/MPE costs. These
    >graphs are something HP looks at every budgeting and business strategy
    >cycle, and without an upside, or some brilliant plan to create an upside
    >that HP execs will buy into, what do you think they are going to do?
    >
    >Placation is relatively cheap, doing something requires the promise of
    >profit to undertake, and the higher the risk of failure, the higher the
    >potential profit needs to be. The things that loom prominently in the risk
    >assessment are how to keep hardware (PA-RISC) and software (MPE) competive
    >profitably with the competion (Intel, AMD, IBM, Sun; and Linux, MS Windows,
    >Solaris). Therein lies the fate of MPE and the HP3000.
    >
    >Peter
    >
    >* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    >* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
    >
    >
    >
    >--
    >No virus found in this incoming message.
    >Checked by AVG.
    >Version: 7.5.549 / Virus Database: 270.8.4/1749 - Release Date: 10/27/08
    >7:57 AM


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  10. OT - interesting poll

    >To all;

    Here is an interesting
    poll: http://www.ibdeditorials.com/Polls.a...09635713550536
    This is supposed to be one of the most accurate polls in recent years...
    Could be exciting.
    Thanks,
    Jeff


    Jeff Kubler
    Kubler Consulting, Inc.
    541-745-7457
    jeff@kublerconsulting.com
    www.kublerconsulting.com

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  11. OT - interesting poll

    --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Jeff Kubler wrote:

    Here is an interesting
    poll: http://www.ibdeditorials.com/Polls.a...09635713550536
    This is supposed to be one of the most accurate polls in recent years...
    Could be exciting.

    ************************************************** *
    Let me be the first to predict...* It's going to be a blow out and Obama will win the day.* Democrats will gain several seats in the house and senate.

    I am not in any way endorsing Obama, I don't endorse any of the candidates.

    However I offer a word of warning for those who have faith in "the chosen one".

    Our Government does not have a very good record of "spreading the wealth", our government only knows how to spend, spend and spend.

    Counting on our Government to spread the wealth, is like giving drunk uncleSam the paycheck to take home to aunt Betsy to raise the kids.* Drunk uncle Sam may have good intentions, but he is never going to make it home.

    -Craig




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    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


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