14 years awaiting! - Hewlett Packard

This is a discussion on 14 years awaiting! - Hewlett Packard ; On Oct 6, 8:07*am, A.L. wrote: > OK, check Casio 115 FX, and TI "multi view" editions of their TI-30 > simple, non graphic, non programmable calculators. I have seen both versions of the Casio FX-115 (MS and ES). The ...

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Thread: 14 years awaiting!

  1. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    On Oct 6, 8:07*am, A.L. wrote:
    > OK, check Casio 115 FX, and TI "multi view" editions of their TI-30
    > simple, non graphic, non programmable calculators.


    I have seen both versions of the Casio FX-115 (MS and ES). The top row
    of the display is not as good as the bottom row because the top is a
    dot-matrix and the bottom is segmented. I have not seen a "multi view"
    TI-30, but the older TI-30 Xa's have good displays (though they suffer
    from the logarithm bug and suggest that 1.000000001^1000000000 ~
    2.719193 > e).

    > Check also TI V200
    > and compare with HP 50. Check also Casio fx-9860G. If you want to see
    > how good display can look like


    TI Voyage 200 suffers from the same tiny print as the TI-89 series. HP
    50g has physically larger pixels and higher contrast, though the
    background has as slight orange tint. I have not seen the Casio, but I
    have seen a Casio Powergraphic with a color display (I know, this is
    not a fair comparison) and it had terrible viewing angle. The 3-color
    display was cool, but I don't think it's necessary on a handheld.

    >
    > Check also 30 years old Sharp EL-5100 and Sharp PC-1211


    Clearly I don't have access to these.

    >
    > I don' think that there is any excuse for HP
    >


    I didn't say that HP had any excuses.

    S.C.


  2. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    On Oct 6, 3:50*pm, A.L. wrote:
    > According to my opinion, the majority of iPhone users have a slight
    > brain damage.


    Oh, so you've met and personally know more than half of the world's
    iPhone users? At least your claim of their degree of brain damage is
    only "slight."

    S.C.

  3. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    On Oct 6, 3:49*pm, Martin Krischik wrote:
    > > Have you ever seen a coloured LCD device powered by AAA batteries
    > > lasting for over a month of a single set of batteries.

    >
    > No, but AAA is outdated as well. Today one used Li-whatever
    > rechargeables. Mind you, some of the oldest HPs used rechargeables as well.



    Even your Li-ion rechargable cells cannot sustain a device with a
    color display for a month of battery life.

    Standard cells like the AAA/AA/C/D/9V are the way to go for handhelds.

    S.C.

  4. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 15:33:07 -0700 (PDT), sc_usenet@hotmail.com wrote:

    >On Oct 6, 3:50*pm, A.L. wrote:
    >> According to my opinion, the majority of iPhone users have a slight
    >> brain damage.

    >
    >Oh, so you've met and personally know more than half of the world's
    >iPhone users? At least your claim of their degree of brain damage is
    >only "slight."
    >
    >S.C.


    No. I met statistically significant sample. I don't need to meet all
    of them. Statistics (the science) says that this is OK

    A.L.

  5. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 15:16:53 -0700 (PDT), sc_usenet@hotmail.com wrote:

    >On Oct 6, 4:09*pm, Dieter wrote:
    >> Martin Krischik schrieb:
    >>
    >> > sc_use...@hotmail.com schrieb:

    >>
    >> > > The best displays are the single-line 7-segment LCDs in simple
    >> > > scientific calculators.

    >>
    >> > HP41?

    >>
    >> The '41 had a 14-segment display.
    >> And of course it wasn't a "simple scientific calculator". 8-)
    >>
    >> Dieter

    >
    >You know what I meant.
    >I meant the segmented displays (however many there are per character)
    >as opposed to the dot-matrix LCDs.
    >


    Dot matrix in HP 17bII+ is perfect

    A.L.

  6. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    On Oct 6, 7:42*pm, A.L. wrote:
    > Dot matrix in HP 17bII+ is perfect
    >
    > A.L.


    Okay, that's good. (I don't have a 17bII+)

    S.C.

  7. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    On Oct 6, 7:41*pm, A.L. wrote:
    > On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 15:33:07 -0700 (PDT), sc_use...@hotmail.com wrote:
    > >On Oct 6, 3:50*pm, A.L. wrote:
    > >> According to my opinion, the majority of iPhone users have a slight
    > >> brain damage.

    >
    > >Oh, so you've met and personally know more than half of the world's
    > >iPhone users? At least your claim of their degree of brain damage is
    > >only "slight."

    >
    > >S.C.

    >
    > No. I met statistically significant sample. I don't need to meet all
    > of them. Statistics (the science) says that *this is OK
    >
    > A.L.


    Since your original hypothesis is not quantitative but qualitative, I
    guess this doesn't even matter.

    S.C.

  8. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    On Oct 6, 1:28*pm, "Eric Rechlin" wrote:

    > Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 and 2008 Express Editions (with C++, C#, and
    > VB.NET versions) are completely free (not Free, but free), and have pretty
    > much anything that most individual developers would want.


    Yeah, Microsoft decided they needed to compete with Linux some years
    ago. One result was the
    concession that free development tools means more developers on your
    platform - duh.

    > . *You only need the
    > full version if you need add-ins or a few other features that power users
    > might want. *Microsoft even gives away a free version of SQL Server Express,
    > which is sufficiently powerful for most personal databases. .


    God no! This is *not* a feature, but a terrible smear on performance
    and system stability. Though
    who can tell if you are running Vista? .

    > The biggest thing here that has changed in the last 25 years is that now the
    > vast majority of computer users (and likely, to stay on topic, calculator
    > users as well) just want to use the computer, not program it, so the
    > marketing is different.


    Bingo. People are getting what they asked for.

    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Eric Rechlin


    Regards,
    Howard

  9. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    Dieter schrieb:
    > Martin Krischik schrieb:
    >
    >> sc_usenet@hotmail.com schrieb:
    >>
    >>> The best displays are the single-line 7-segment LCDs in simple
    >>> scientific calculators.

    >> HP41?

    >
    > The '41 had a 14-segment display.
    > And of course it wasn't a "simple scientific calculator". 8-)


    Precisely. So you can have a good display on an advanced calculator. But
    then: No graphic display.

    Martin

    --
    mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
    Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

  10. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    Eric Rechlin schrieb:
    > "Martin Krischik" wrote:
    >> TranslucentAmoebae schrieb:
    >>> i find it very suspicious that 20 years ago, every computer that you
    >>> bought had a built in, easy to use programming language, and now, you
    >>> can't buy an affordable programming language, and they're getting
    >>> impossible to use.

    >> My thinking as well. However: it is only true if you buy the MS-Windows
    >> systems. Both Linux and Mac OS X come with several programming languages
    >> "out of the box".

    >
    > No, it isn't even true for Windows.
    >
    > Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 and 2008 Express Editions (with C++, C#, and
    > VB.NET versions) are completely free (not Free, but free), and have pretty
    > much anything that most individual developers would want.


    The part in quotes was "out of the box" - or as the OP said "built in".
    Visual Studio is not pre-installed (Linux) or part of the supplemental
    application DVD (Mac OS X).

    > It's just not necessarily well promoted or installed by
    > default in a majority of systems. Even many Linux distributions don't
    > necessary install much along the lines of development software by default.


    But this is precisely the point TranslucentAmoebae and I am making. And
    yes: with every new iteration of Linux less and less development tools
    where pre-installed. Current Linux system won't even pre-install an C
    compiler any more.

    > The biggest thing here that has changed in the last 25 years is that now the
    > vast majority of computer users (and likely, to stay on topic, calculator
    > users as well) just want to use the computer, not program it, so the
    > marketing is different.


    Indeed.

    Martin
    --
    mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
    Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

  11. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    John H Meyers schrieb:
    > On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:49:05 -0500, Martin Krischik wrote:
    >
    >> AAA is outdated as well. Today one uses Li-whatever rechargeables.

    >
    > The use of "Li-whatever rechargeables" is exactly why
    > my otherwise highly capable PPCs are now turning into expensive paperweights --
    > solely because their one-of a kind size/shape cell is no longer manufactured,
    > old warehouse battery stock being unloaded today
    > doesn't hold much of a charge, and the expensive PPCs become useless
    > without replacing the Lithium ion cells every so often.
    >
    > However, my ancient but still perfectly working Sharp wizards
    > (with full keyboards and wide display screens) and HP graphing calculators
    > are still completely useful, because they are powered
    > by ever-available standard AAAs -- rechargeable versions of which
    > are also available everywhere.
    >
    > Beware of devices which will become extinct whenever their batteries do.


    Very true indeed. But not the fault of Li-whatever - it's the fault of
    greedy and selfish manufactures.

    30 years or so they where able to agree on a Li-"Button"-Batteries
    standard but today they can't do so for "Li-whatever rechargeables". And
    we - the customer - suffer from it.

    BTW: didn't some HP calculators use an AA-rechargeables pack so standard
    AA could be used in case of need?

    Martin
    --
    mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
    Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

  12. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    A.L. schrieb:

    > The only acceptable display is HP 12 and HP 17bII+.


    If you say HP 12 - would that not include the HP 11, HP 15 and HP 16 as
    well?

    Martin
    --
    mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
    Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com

  13. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    On Oct 7, 2:41*am, Martin Krischik
    wrote:
    > Very true indeed. But not the fault of Li-whatever - it's the fault of
    > greedy and selfish manufactures.
    >
    > 30 years or so they where able to agree on a Li-"Button"-Batteries
    > standard but today they can't do so for "Li-whatever rechargeables". And
    > we - the customer - suffer from it.
    >


    That's because Li-ion cells operate at about 3.7 V, a significant
    difference from Ni-MH (and Ni-Cd) which have a nominal voltage of 1.2
    V. Putting a Li-ion cell into a AAA form factor could potentially fry
    some devices by supplying too much voltage.

    Rechargable Li-ions are usually molded to whatever shape the product
    is in to maximize its capacity. They do this to squeeze the battery in
    to ever-thinner electronic devices.

    A universal standard would be nice, but then different companies would
    argue over what exactly that standard should be.

    S.C.

  14. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 10:47:33 -0500, S.C. wrote:

    > Putting a Li-ion cell into a AAA form factor...


    No one suggested using the identical form factor of an AAA cell for Li-ion,
    only that the fact of a product being designed to use some standard
    might be important to the useful lifetime of the product.

    > Rechargable Li-ions are usually molded to whatever shape the product
    > is in to maximize its capacity. They do this to squeeze the battery
    > into ever-thinner electronic devices.


    Watch batteries (and even thin calculator batteries)
    likewise needed to be squeezed into ever thinner watches and flat calculators,
    but this managed to get done in a way that produced standardized sizes
    (some for 1.5v, others for 3v), which are still available
    (except at Wal-Mart, which doesn't recognize the existence of size "389"

    > A universal standard would be nice, but then different companies
    > would argue over what exactly that standard should be.


    Has always been true of everything, yet has been overcome most of the time;
    even some of HP's special battery packs (including those which were
    part of the case) used standard cells which could usually be replaced.

    http://www.batterycrossref.com says that there even exist
    standardized rechargeable lithium ion coin cells, with sizes
    (LIR1620, LIR2016, LIR2025, LIR2032, ..., LIR3048) suggesting that
    these may be the same form factor as 3v non-rechargeable lithium cells;
    some other, more easily "packed" larger call sizes and shapes
    (e.g. rectangular) could easily be conceived,
    with whatever additional contacts (or electronic elements) might be useful.

    Need a few thousand LIR2450?
    http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/20...l_LIR2450.html
    "Supply Ability: 500,000 Pieces per Week"

    -[ ]-

  15. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    There are more problems with Li-Ion batteries:

    - they are VERY delicate. As far as I know, every single LiIon pack
    (not the device it's being charged in - that delicate!) has its own
    built-in charge controller just so they don't blow up due to
    overcharge. This makes them very expensive.

    - They are also very prone to mechanical failure, and if they have an
    internal shortcut they become a bomb (http://de.youtube.com/watch?
    v=tC0UWIYswKI). This is what happened to Dell, Sony et.al. a few
    months ago. They would therefore need a lot more casing than standard
    batteries, which made them quite bulky.

    - LiIon batteries are made for phone&laptop use - that is, their
    energy is supposed to be drained over a relatively short period of
    time. They will lose charge over time even when not in use. For that
    matter, most rechargeables will, as well as alkaline non-
    rechargeables. try putting a rechargeable in a wall clock and see how
    long it lasts (my bet is 4-6 weeks, less if you use NiMH cells). Using
    them in a calculator with it's modest power consumption would be a
    waste.

    There are different kinds of batteries for different applications, and
    not without reason.

    so long,
    Matthias

    On Oct 7, 5:47*pm, sc_use...@hotmail.com wrote:
    > On Oct 7, 2:41*am, Martin Krischik
    > wrote:
    >
    > > Very true indeed. But not the fault of Li-whatever - it's the fault of
    > > greedy and selfish manufactures.

    >
    > Rechargable Li-ions are usually molded to whatever shape the product
    > is in to maximize its capacity. They do this to squeeze the battery in
    > to ever-thinner electronic devices.
    >
    > A universal standard would be nice, but then different companies would
    > argue over what exactly that standard should be.
    >
    > S.C.



  16. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    On Oct 6, 12:50 pm, A.L. wrote:
    > On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:34:54 -0700 (PDT), TranslucentAmoebae
    >
    > wrote:
    > >But the computer & software manufacturers just don't want everyone to
    > >have an easy to use programming language, which means that this next
    > >( long overdue ) easy to use, fully functional, full color hand held
    > >calculator will NEVER EVER become available.

    >
    > Could you please explain why you need calculator with color screen?
    > Casop made once and flopped. Nobody needs calculator with color screen
    >
    > A.L.


    Information is good. Color is information.
    Programming & Easy Programming allow Users to solve their own unique &
    original problems.
    Software manufacturers and Computer makers would much rather provide
    users with preassembled pseudo-solutions for their agenda driven
    micromanaged faux culture.

  17. Re: 14 years awaiting!

    Hi

    On 2008-10-08 21:27:43 +1100, Matthias Rampke
    said:

    > There are more problems with Li-Ion batteries:
    >
    > - they are VERY delicate. As far as I know, every single LiIon pack
    > (not the device it's being charged in - that delicate!) has its own
    > built-in charge controller just so they don't blow up due to
    > overcharge. This makes them very expensive.



    They also need to be in a fireproof enclosure...


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