us as a community of nerds - Hewlett Packard

This is a discussion on us as a community of nerds - Hewlett Packard ; let's really come together. i mean face it anyone who pays attention to the claculator they purchase is proud to be a nerd. their is one problem. there are few programs that work for the the hp50g. that is pretty ...

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  1. us as a community of nerds

    let's really come together. i mean face it anyone who pays attention
    to the claculator they purchase is proud to be a nerd.
    their is one problem. there are few programs that work for the the
    hp50g. that is pretty bad, i downloaded the chemistry lab 2.7 and the
    periodic table was in spanish, helium wasn't in the table. the
    compound names and such is okay but i had no poly atomic ions.
    the statistics progam stat pack newest one was fairly descent again
    missed some very important things not good. my professor rated my work
    less than a 70 but the things that i had she thought were beautiful.
    i have had this mini computer for some time now and i really like it
    however until i can figure out how to change things in a program or
    add things, delete things, i think this product doesn't work to
    potential and that is upsetting because the hp50g can whip the ****
    out of a ti whatever
    the only problem here is that hp doesn't market their stuff well
    enough so no one knows this mini computers potential. two is half ass
    programs thast is available for the hp50g since most people who want
    the best expect the best don't recieve the best they talk bad about
    it.
    NOT GOOD!
    we need to begin upgrade these programs to suit the hp50g, and update
    what is on these programs. and clean them up.
    i am in springfield college so our server is quite fast. if there is
    anything i could do to make this more possible i would love to
    contribute, the only problem is thast i don't know how to program.

  2. Re: us as a community of nerds

    In article
    <7a443862-36ed-4c5b-880b-fcc9b2abdb42@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
    TW wrote:

    > > their is one problem. there are few programs that work for the the
    > > hp50g. that is pretty bad,

    >
    > I suspect you are going to get a slew of responses stating
    > otherwise.


    Apparently he has yet to find hpcalc.org

  3. Re: us as a community of nerds

    "likuidrock" wrote:
    > we need to begin upgrade these programs to suit the hp50g,
    > and update what is on these programs. and clean them up.


    Welcome to comp.sys.hp48!

    Yes, there are many programs that were originally written for the 49G that
    were never enhanced to take advantage of the larger screen of the 49g+ and
    50g. Additionally, there are many more programs that were originally
    written for the 48 series that were never ported to the 49 series
    (48gII/49G/49g+/50g). Some of these old 48-series programs are obsolete, as
    the 49 series already has a lot of functionality built-in that users had to
    add to the 48, but plenty of them are worthy of porting.

    Earlier this month I spent some time modifying a few 49G programs to take
    advantage of the large screen in the 50g. A couple of these were in
    assembly language and one was in System RPL, as I recall.

    But there has been no large-scale effort to upgrade software for the 50g,
    just like there has been no large-scale effort to port 48-series programs to
    the 49-series, which was released over 9 years ago. (I did port a number of
    programs from the 48 to the 49, which I posted to my site back in August
    1999, but due to my limited experience with the 49 at the time, I did a
    poor, or at least less-than-perfect, job on many of them.)

    > i am in springfield college so our server is quite fast.


    So is my server, plus it is already established. If you want to create
    something of your own, it would be great (competition is always good!), but
    you'd have to ask yourself whether duplication of effort is worth it.

    > if there is anything i could do to make this more possible
    > i would love to contribute, the only problem is thast i
    > don't know how to program.


    This is something I have seen time and time again over the years.

    You've got "idea people", who come up with a great idea for a project. But
    then they need to find other people to do the project. For example, "I want
    to start a band. I just need a songwriter, a singer, a percussionist, and a
    couple guitar players!" or "I want to make a video game. I just need a
    programmer, a level designer, and a graphic artist!"

    On the other hand, you've got the hobbyists who can actually do the work.
    But they, at the same time, have their own ideas. Perhaps they just like
    tinkering with something long enough to understand it, and then move on,
    with no real desire to keep at it long enough to make a finished product or
    something for the public -- they just want to get the satisfaction of
    learning and experimenting, and then move on to something new. Occasionally
    they might get a brilliant idea of something that they can do long term, but
    this would be their idea.

    The tough thing is getting one of these people to work on your idea rather
    than their own. Unless your idea happens to match their idea, it becomes a
    job for them, so they would likely want some form of compensation. I
    believe you have already received one offer for such a service, at a VERY
    reasonable price. Otherwise, if they are working for free, they will want
    to work on their own projects, not yours.

    So I recommend that you try to learn how to do it yourself. Fortunately,
    all the tools are out there to make it easy, and there are different levels
    of difficulty that let you start with something easy before you go onto
    something hard. The information isn't all out there, but that's what this
    newsgroup is for. Ask lots of questions. Over time, enough could be posted
    here to form a good "HOWTO" tutorial for porting software.

    Here's what I would do:

    First, get Emu48 1.45+, a 50g skin, and a ROM for the 50g. If you want to
    port from the 48, you'll also want a ROM from the 48G. You can download
    this all from my site, though some of it is unfortunately difficult to find
    or prepare (I'm working on this). You'll find this is a lot easier to do on
    the computer than the real calculator.

    Now find a program to convert. You'll want to start with something simple,
    so choose a User RPL program in the form of a single variable or a
    directory. Now learn User RPL programming -- there are numerous good
    documents to help you get started, some from HP and some from the user
    community. Now go through the program and make any changes you want to
    make. For programs already written for the 49 series, it's as simple as
    changing things to take advantage of the larger screen, and in a few rare
    cases adjusting for the slight changes in a few key labels.

    If you are porting from the 48, it's a little more difficult. You need to
    get the source code first, which consists of converting it to ASCII mode
    (either by transferring it from a real 48 calculator in ASCII Kermit mode,
    or using one of the tools on my site within an Emu48-emulated 48) if it
    isn't provided with the software. Then you need to load it into an
    Emu48-emulated 49 and use the same tool to convert from ASCII to binary. If
    it fails, it is likely because it is using a reserved name (one that is new
    in the 49) as a variable name, so you'll need to fix that before the
    conversion. If you want the program's displayed numbers as text to be true
    to that on the 48, you'll need to do it in Exact mode. If you want the
    program to provide numeric output the same as on the 48, you'll need to do
    the conversion in Approximate mode (usually the best choice). If you want
    the best of both, you'll have to do it in Exact mode but manually tweak the
    program to use Reals at some times but Integers at other times as necessary.
    Additionally, you will have to worry about key mappings, since the keyboard
    layout changed completely from the 48 to the 49, and change all scan codes
    in the source to be the new key. Finally, you have to be aware of the other
    difference between the 48 and the 49 -- the large (10 pixel) font was
    eliminated from the 49, and the proportional caps-only minifont has been
    replaced with a fixed-width minifont that supports lowercase letters.
    Therefore, for example, the "(AN(L" softkey menu should be replaced with
    "CANCL" or "Cancl".

    The next thing to learn is converting libraries. Regardless of whether the
    program is from the 48 or 49, if it is in library format, you'll need to
    extract the library before you can do any of the above. There are tools to
    do this.

    Now, once you have mastered all the above, you can try the next step up in
    difficulty -- converting System RPL programs. These may or may not be in
    library format. Again, there is documentation for learning System RPL, the
    most-often-recommended of which is probably the one by Eduardo Kalinowski.
    System RPL is very similar to User RPL, except that it has a lot more
    commands, is much less forgiving of error (make a mistake and it may clear
    your calculator's memory), and has to be separately compiled. For System
    RPL programs, you need to use the built-in ->S2 command in library 256 to
    decompile the binary to source code. Then you can edit the code, recompile
    it with the ASM command, and test it.

    Finally, once you have mastered System RPL, the next step is to learn
    assembly language. The 50g supports development in both Saturn assembly and
    ARM assembly, but since virtually nothing has been written in ARM assembly,
    you only need to worry about the former for a conversion effort. Again,
    there is documentation to learn this. I recommend the one written by
    Gilbert Fernandes and edited by me.

    At pretty much any point in the above process you can decide you've learned
    enough, and just start converting programs that are no more complicated than
    you have learned so far. Then share them with us, and send them to me for
    posting on my site!

    In the last two weeks, only four new/updated programs have been submitted to
    me, all of which came through in the last day. I will be adding these soon.
    That's very disappointing. There used to be so much more new stuff, but now
    very little software is being maintained. It would be great if more people
    were interested in writing or updating software, as there is so much that
    can be done. I admire your enthusiasm and hope that you can put it to use
    helping us all! Feel free to ask about any of the above if you are
    interested in learning. If not, hopefully you have inspired somebody else!

    I apologize for not making a greater attempt to convert more programs
    myself, but I have so many different interests and so little time to do them
    all.

    Regards,

    Eric Rechlin



  4. Re: us as a community of nerds

    On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:09:10 -0700 (PDT), likuidrock
    wrote:

    >let's really come together. i mean face it anyone who pays attention
    >to the claculator they purchase is proud to be a nerd.


    What is "nerd"?... These idiots from movie "Revenge of the nerds?"...
    I have a lot of calculators, pay enough attention, but I don't
    consider myself a "nerd".

    A.L.

  5. programming in general

    > In the last two weeks, only four new/updated programs have been submittedto
    > me, all of which came through in the last day. *I will be adding these soon.
    > That's very disappointing. *There used to be so much more new stuff, but now
    > very little software is being maintained.


    You know, that is something I've been thinking about for quite a
    while. It isn't just with calculator programs, but with any type of
    programming. In the past, it was difficult to find something that was
    what you wanted. So to get the functionality, you'd have to learn to
    program and write it.

    Then along came the internet and a while later you could find millions
    of programs. While they may not be perfectly matched with the idea in
    your head, chances are they are pretty darn close. Why bother
    learning to do it yourself when somebody has probably done almost the
    same thing before? I know the rise of computers has a lot to do with
    it as well, but I think the ease at which you can access a peice of
    software has done a lot to cause people younger and younger to loose
    interest in learning to program. Then when they are older, the thought
    is "I want to make video games for a living!" Thoughts?

    TW

  6. Re: us as a community of nerds

    On Sep 22, 7:16*am, A.L. wrote:
    > On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:09:10 -0700 (PDT), likuidrock
    > What is "nerd"?... These idiots from movie "Revenge of the nerds?"...
    > I have a lot of calculators, pay enough attention, but I don't
    > consider myself a "nerd".
    >
    > A.L.


    Gene: You pay attention, except for ...

    1) Checking to see if a business calculator from HP has trig
    functions. Since that model line (17B, 17BII, 17BII+) has NEVER had
    trig functions, it is difficult to see how much attention you have
    been paying.

    and

    2) Telling people in a thread that a calculator purchase was required
    when you start a thread, instead of mid-way through it. It is even
    worse form to complain that you're having to repeat yourself when you
    never stated the requirement in the first place.

    Oh yeah... you pay lots of attention.


  7. Re: us as a community of nerds

    On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 07:41:44 -0700 (PDT), Gene
    wrote:

    >On Sep 22, 7:16*am, A.L. wrote:
    >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:09:10 -0700 (PDT), likuidrock
    >> What is "nerd"?... These idiots from movie "Revenge of the nerds?"...
    >> I have a lot of calculators, pay enough attention, but I don't
    >> consider myself a "nerd".
    >>
    >> A.L.

    >
    >Gene: You pay attention, except for ...


    You are responding to yourself?.... Mayge, finally, you are a nerd.

    A.L.

    P.S> Where is the slide rule for users of HP 17BII whatever?

    A,L.

  8. Re: us as a community of nerds

    On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 07:41:44 -0700 (PDT), Gene
    wrote:

    >On Sep 22, 7:16*am, A.L. wrote:
    >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:09:10 -0700 (PDT), likuidrock
    >> What is "nerd"?... These idiots from movie "Revenge of the nerds?"...
    >> I have a lot of calculators, pay enough attention, but I don't
    >> consider myself a "nerd".
    >>
    >> A.L.

    >
    >Gene: You pay attention, except for ...
    >
    >1) Checking to see if a business calculator from HP has trig
    >functions. Since that model line (17B, 17BII, 17BII+) has NEVER had
    >trig functions, it is difficult to see how much attention you have
    >been paying.


    Oh, by the way... I was thinking that HO is manufacturing just piece
    of trash. No, there is WHOLE LINE of trash. Thanks for keeping me
    informed

    A.L.

  9. Re: us as a community of nerds

    On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 07:41:44 -0700 (PDT), Gene
    wrote:

    >
    >2) Telling people in a thread that a calculator purchase was required
    >when you start a thread, instead of mid-way through it. It is even
    >worse form to complain that you're having to repeat yourself when you
    >never stated the requirement in the first place.
    >


    Absence or presence of trig funstions has nothing with the issue
    whether calculator is required or not. This is objective fact.

    I informed anout requirements when "HP lovers" started responding "go
    to hell, buy TI".

    A.L.

    P.S. Initial reaction of my cousing when I handed him over TI BA
    professional" was WOW!!! As he told me, TI has at least twice as many
    business functions than HP. He told, quote: "if HP is required, I will
    keep it on the desk, but calculations I will do with TI hidden under
    the desk". Of course, as long as professor will not require solver. To
    solve equations that contain "pi" but not "sin"

  10. Re: us as a community of nerds

    On Sep 22, 10:33*am, A.L. wrote:
    > On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 07:41:44 -0700 (PDT), Gene
    > wrote:
    >
    > >On Sep 22, 7:16*am, A.L. wrote:
    > >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:09:10 -0700 (PDT), likuidrock
    > >> What is "nerd"?... These idiots from movie "Revenge of the nerds?"...
    > >> I have a lot of calculators, pay enough attention, but I don't
    > >> consider myself a "nerd".

    >
    > >> A.L.

    >
    > >Gene: You pay attention, except for ...

    >
    > >1) Checking to see if a business calculator from HP has trig
    > >functions. Since that model line (17B, 17BII, 17BII+) has NEVER had
    > >trig functions, it is difficult to see how much attention you have
    > >been paying.

    >
    > Oh, by the way... I was thinking that HO is manufacturing just piece
    > of trash. No, there is WHOLE LINE of trash. Thanks for keeping me
    > informed
    >
    > A.L.


    Gene: That's HP, not HO. Paying attention again, I suppose? :-)

    And, you're welcome. However, perhaps you should not pose as someone
    who knows a great deal about HP calculators?

  11. Re: us as a community of nerds

    > Oh yeah... you pay lots of attention.

    Slightly modified but appropriate in so many different ways:

    "There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in
    Tennessee -- that says, if you can, you do; if you can't, you complain about
    those who do."

    Some people do nothing but complain. Obviously they are incapable of
    anything else. It is best to ignore their trolling. But thanks for trying
    to keep the conversation civil.

    Back on topic, I think that the very inclusion of trig functions on the 20b
    shows that HP is serious about making their financial models competitive
    with TI. If the 20b's new functionality could be added to the 17bII+, there
    would be little to complain about. The complaints about build quality were
    true about the old version of the 17bII+ that the original poster has, but
    the new version is of excellent build quality.

    Regards,

    Eric Rechlin



  12. Re: us as a community of nerds

    On Sep 22, 11:59*am, "Eric Rechlin" wrote:
    > Back on topic, I think that the very inclusion of trig functions on the 20b
    > shows that HP is serious about making their financial models competitive
    > with TI. *If the 20b's new functionality could be added to the 17bII+, there
    > would be little to complain about. *The complaints about build quality were
    > true about the old version of the 17bII+ that the original poster has, but
    > the new version is of excellent build quality.
    >


    It's still pretty expensive, though. At $85, I would expect impeccable
    build quality. The TI BA+ PROFESSIONAL has a huge price advantage
    because it only costs $35. Anybody know about its build quality? (I
    don't have one, and I don't have a 17bII+ either.)

    Maybe a 17bIII with added trig functions? The 17bII+ does not have too
    much code in common with the 17bII, so I don't see any reason why the
    next version in the 17b series can't have trig functions (lineage is
    not an excuse). They are a piece of cake to program using Taylor
    series expansions.

    S.C.

  13. Re: us as a community of nerds

    On Sep 22, 11:38*am, A.L. wrote:
    > P.S. Initial reaction of my cousing when I handed him over TI BA
    > professional" was WOW!!! As he told me, TI has at least twice as many
    > business functions than HP. He told, quote: "if HP is required, I will
    > keep it on the desk, but calculations I will do with TI hidden under
    > the desk". Of course, as long as professor will not require solver. To
    > solve equations that contain "pi" but not "sin"


    WOW!!! Perhaps you should inquire about a new job?

    http://education.ti.com/educationpor...ut_marcom.html

    You could probably solve those equations on the TI without the solver
    app; just work on the equation from the inside out and use the
    calculator as a scientific calculator to crunch numbers.

    S.C.

  14. Re: us as a community of nerds

    SC Usenet wrote:
    > It's still pretty expensive, though. At $85, I would expect impeccable
    > build quality. The TI BA+ PROFESSIONAL has a huge price advantage
    > because it only costs $35. Anybody know about its build quality? (I
    > don't have one, and I don't have a 17bII+ either.)


    The TI BA II+ Professional is $60, and its build quality is fairly decent.
    It's the TI BA II+ that is $35, and that has the same build quality as TI's
    $13 scientifics. The BA II+ best competes with the 20b. The BA II+
    Professional doesn't really have a direct HP competitor. Pricewise it's
    comparable to the 12C, but the two seem to target completely different
    markets.

    The build quality of the new (silver) 17bII+ is quite good. It feels at
    least as good as the 35s on the outside, though I don't know how they
    compare inside.

    I've used all of the above, and for build quality, I would probably rate
    them as follows (0 worst, 10 best):
    17bII+ (silver): 9.5
    BA II+ Pro: 6 (maybe 7 -- it's been probably 2 years since I last used one)
    BA II+: 4
    20b: 3.5 (sorry, but although the interior quality is amazing, the part that
    you see and touch is *bad*)

    I'd probably rank the obsolete gold 17bII+ somewhere between the BA II+ and
    the BA II+ Professional. That was definitely not worth $85. Case in point:
    over a period of more than four years I sold only 7 of the old gold 17bII+.
    In the eight months I have had the silver one, I have sold 22 of the new
    ones.

    Regards,

    Eric Rechlin



  15. Re: us as a community of nerds

    On Sep 22, 7:57*pm, "Eric Rechlin" wrote:
    > I've used all of the above, and for build quality, I would probably rate
    > them as follows (0 worst, 10 best):
    > 17bII+ (silver): 9.5
    > BA II+ Pro: 6 (maybe 7 -- it's been probably 2 years since I last used one)
    > BA II+: 4
    > 20b: 3.5 (sorry, but although the interior quality is amazing, the part that
    > you see and touch is *bad*)
    >



    Sorry for bugging you, but where would you put the 35s and 50g on this
    0-10 rating scale?

    Thanks,
    S.C.

  16. Re: us as a community of nerds

    "i am in springfield college"

    Therein is the problem. Transfer to an accredited school!

  17. Re: us as a community of nerds

    SC Usenet wrote:
    > On Sep 22, 7:57 pm, "Eric Rechlin" wrote:
    > > I've used all of the above, and for build quality, I would probably rate
    > > them as follows (0 worst, 10 best):
    > > 17bII+ (silver): 9.5
    > > BA II+ Pro: 6 (maybe 7 -- it's been probably 2 years since I last used
    > > one)
    > > BA II+: 4
    > > 20b: 3.5 (sorry, but although the interior quality is amazing, the part
    > > that
    > > you see and touch is *bad*)
    > >

    > Sorry for bugging you, but where would you put the 35s and 50g on this
    > 0-10 rating scale?


    The 35s is a little trickier. I normally would have put at the same as the
    17bII+, but I have heard some reports of it missing keystrokes (not in my
    experience, though), so I am not sure. I'll put it at the same 9.5 and let
    someone with more experience correct me if I am wrong.

    The 50g I'd put around 8.5. It loses a bit due to the all-plastic
    construction and lots of open space inside giving it a more hollow feel,
    plus it just looks cheaper than the 35s, but it isn't by any means bad.
    It's not really a quality thing, so it's not affecting my rating here, but I
    would prefer it with a double-wide ENTER key, too. I don't think I would
    rank the 48GX any higher, though an older one with multi-shot injection
    molded keys would maybe gain half a point.

    Note I am *not* talking about the quality of the electronics, just the
    industrial design. Otherwise the 35s would lose points to the 17bII+ for
    the inferior screen and the 50g would lose points for its battery life.

    Regards,

    Eric Rechlin



  18. Re: us as a community of nerds

    On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:32:09 -0400, jobar wrote:

    >"i am in springfield college"
    >
    >Therein is the problem. Transfer to an accredited school!

    What is wrong with Springfield College? I do not know where you come
    from, but it would be wise to do some research before you spout off.
    It is not an engineering school, true.
    It's emphasis is on athletics, sports medicine/science,teaching,
    and health related fields.
    It is also home to the inventors of both Basketball and Volleyball.
    Two of my cousins went there and both received Bachelors and Masters
    Degrees there. They are both long time coaches and teachers in the
    Public School systems in Maryland.
    Harold A Climer
    Dept. Of Physics Geology, and Astronomy
    U.T, Chattanooga
    Rm. 406A Engineering, Math & Computer Science Building
    615 McCallie Ave. Chattanooga TN 37403
    Harold-Cimer@utc.edu

  19. Re: us as a community of nerds

    On Sep 21, 8:09*pm, likuidrock wrote:
    > let's really come together. i mean face it anyone who pays attention
    > to the claculator they purchase is proud to be a nerd.
    > their is one problem. there are few programs that work for the the
    > hp50g. that is pretty bad, i downloaded the chemistry lab 2.7 and the
    > periodic table was in spanish, helium wasn't in the table. the
    > compound names and such is okay but i had no poly atomic ions.
    > the statistics progam stat pack newest one was fairly descent again
    > missed some very important things not good. my professor rated my work
    > less than a 70 but the things that i had she thought were beautiful.
    > i have had this mini computer for some time now and i really like it
    > however until i can figure out how to change things in a program or
    > add things, delete things, i think this product doesn't work to
    > potential and that is upsetting because the hp50g can whip the ****
    > out of a ti whatever
    > the only problem here is that hp doesn't market their stuff well
    > enough so no one knows this mini computers potential. two is half ass
    > programs thast is available for the hp50g since most people who want
    > the best expect the best don't recieve the best they talk bad about
    > it.
    > NOT GOOD!
    > *we need to begin upgrade these programs to suit the hp50g, and update
    > what is on these programs. and clean them up.
    > i am in springfield college so our server is quite fast. if there is
    > anything i could do to make this more possible i would love to
    > contribute, the only problem is thast i don't know how to program.


    I can't believe that what I just read was written by someone currently
    in college. TAKE PRIDE IN WHAT YOU WRITE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Learn
    how to form a sentence, use a dictionary or spell-checking program,
    and capitalize the first letter of each sentence. What you wrote was
    pathetic, simply pathetic.

    - LW

  20. Re: us as a community of nerds

    On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:36:01 -0700 (PDT), Lone Wolfy
    wrote:

    >
    >I can't believe that what I just read was written by someone currently
    >in college. TAKE PRIDE IN WHAT YOU WRITE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Learn
    >how to form a sentence, use a dictionary or spell-checking program,
    >and capitalize the first letter of each sentence. What you wrote was
    >pathetic, simply pathetic.
    >
    >- LW


    No way. 40% of high school graduates in this country cannot read,
    write and do simple arithmetic.

    A.L.

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