Who designed HP 17BII+?...

Whoever designed this calculator, made assumption that trigonometric

functions are not needed for business calculations. Therefore, HP

17bII+ doesn't have trigonometric functions. Surprisingly, it has

constant "pi".

My young cousin who got dead HP 17bII+ as birthday gift asked:

"Well... How I will be calculating periodic demand?" I had no answer.

We checked HP12. No trig functions. I checked my TI BA II - all trig

functions, reverse, hyperbolic and reverse...

Or... Maybe I cannot find the menu entry or proper key?...

A.L.

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

"A.L." <alewando@zanoza.com> wrote in message

news:olucd45qktckc7676eq6408p1g6ne7pgp3@4ax.com...[color=blue]

> Whoever designed this calculator, made assumption that trigonometric

> functions are not needed for business calculations. Therefore, HP

> 17bII+ doesn't have trigonometric functions. Surprisingly, it has

> constant "pi".

>

> My young cousin who got dead HP 17bII+ as birthday gift asked:

> "Well... How I will be calculating periodic demand?" I had no answer.

> We checked HP12. No trig functions. I checked my TI BA II - all trig

> functions, reverse, hyperbolic and reverse...

>

> Or... Maybe I cannot find the menu entry or proper key?...

>

> A.L.[/color]

The new 20B has trig.

Bob

--

== All google group posts are automatically deleted due to spam ==

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:34:28 -0700, "BobW"

<nimby_GIMME_SOME_SPAM@roadrunner.com> wrote:

[color=blue]

>

>"A.L." <alewando@zanoza.com> wrote in message

>news:olucd45qktckc7676eq6408p1g6ne7pgp3@4ax.com...[color=green]

>> Whoever designed this calculator, made assumption that trigonometric

>> functions are not needed for business calculations. Therefore, HP

>> 17bII+ doesn't have trigonometric functions. Surprisingly, it has

>> constant "pi".

>>

>> My young cousin who got dead HP 17bII+ as birthday gift asked:

>> "Well... How I will be calculating periodic demand?" I had no answer.

>> We checked HP12. No trig functions. I checked my TI BA II - all trig

>> functions, reverse, hyperbolic and reverse...

>>

>> Or... Maybe I cannot find the menu entry or proper key?...

>>

>> A.L.[/color]

>

>The new 20B has trig.

>[/color]

Yes. But it doesn't have solevr and equations. This is more or less

the same functionality as TI BA II and much less than TI BA II

PROFESSIONAL that costs the same and can be purchased from Office Max

right from the shelf

A.L.

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

It doesn't have trig.

[color=blue]

> Yes. But it doesn't have solevr and equations. This is more or less

> the same functionality as TI BA II and much less than TI BA II

> PROFESSIONAL that costs the same and can be purchased from Office Max

> right from the shelf[/color]

You and he will obviously be happier with the TI one and so should it

and exchange.

TW

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

On Sep 21, 2:34*pm, A.L. <alewa...@zanoza.com> wrote:[color=blue]

> On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:34:28 -0700, "BobW"

>

>

>

> <nimby_GIMME_SOME_S...@roadrunner.com> wrote:

>[color=green]

> >"A.L." <alewa...@zanoza.com> wrote in message

> >news:olucd45qktckc7676eq6408p1g6ne7pgp3@4ax.com...[color=darkred]

> >> Whoever designed this calculator, made assumption that trigonometric

> >> functions are not needed for business calculations. Therefore, HP

> >> 17bII+ doesn't have trigonometric functions. Surprisingly, it has

> >> constant "pi".[/color][/color]

>[color=green][color=darkred]

> >> My young cousin who got dead HP 17bII+ as birthday gift asked:

> >> "Well... How I will be calculating periodic demand?" I had no answer.

> >> We checked HP12. No trig functions. I checked my TI BA II - all trig

> >> functions, reverse, hyperbolic and reverse...[/color][/color]

>[color=green][color=darkred]

> >> Or... Maybe I cannot find the menu entry or proper key?...[/color][/color]

>[color=green][color=darkred]

> >> A.L.[/color][/color]

>[color=green]

> >The new 20B has trig.[/color]

>

> Yes. But it doesn't have solevr and equations. This is more or less

> the same functionality as TI BA II and much less than TI BA II

> PROFESSIONAL that costs the same and can be purchased from Office Max

> right from the shelf

>

> A.L.[/color]

Let's see. You have some options.

1) But another business calculator with the solver and equations and

trig. Oops. No other options exist that are still made, are there? So,

rather rough to beat up on HP for not providing something that NO ONE

ELSE provides either. Yes, you could find a 95LX, 100LX, 200LX, or

19BII calculator if you like.

2) The 20b has more functionality built into it than the TI BAII Plus.

The BAII Plus Professional has only a couple of functions not included

in the 20b...things such as MIRR. However, the 20b has a host of

functions that even the TI BAII Plus professional does not have.

Probability distributions, standard error, covariance, etc.

3) The 17b2+ is an evolution from the 17BII which evolved from the

17B. NONE of this lineage had built-in trig functions. The only

business calculator that HP ever made with the solver and trig

functions was the 19B/19BII. Buy one off ebay if you want one.

4) If this is such a big deal to you, might I suggest you do more

research before buying a machine in the future? It is very plain that

the 17BII+ does not have trig functions even with 5 minutes of

searching. Since none of its ancestors in its direct line ever had

trig functions, it was a mistake to assume it did without checking.

Finally,

5) I agree with Tim. Perhaps you should simply go buy a TI? Of course,

you won't have any equations at all, will you? Enjoy!

Gene

P.S. I do agree that the inclusion of PI makes no sense on the 17b2+.

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

The 17b series is quite old; has numeric solver, no built-in trig

(although I have created satisfactory trig functions for myself,

using summations, and so could anyone else, perhaps using

even better clever formulas which give good enough results

for financial applications).

The old 19B (a folding "clamshell" calculator) is much like the 17B,

but added trig (and graphing), I believe.

As time goes by, and technology offers more ROM and RAM for the buck,

more features tend to appear in newer products at the same tier,

although sometimes there are also unseen losses

(e.g. the care taken with algorithms sometimes slips,

and wrong results have been known to appear

in new models which represent themselves

as updates of the originals, yet are only imitations).

As for the buyer who purchases blindly,

without even looking at product specs,

that's a whole other area of inadequacy,

not attributable to any product or manufacturer

which clearly and honestly states its specifications up front.

-[ ]-

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:41:55 -0700 (PDT), TW <timwessman@gmail.com>

wrote:

[color=blue]

>It doesn't have trig.

>[color=green]

>> Yes. But it doesn't have solevr and equations. This is more or less

>> the same functionality as TI BA II and much less than TI BA II

>> PROFESSIONAL that costs the same and can be purchased from Office Max

>> right from the shelf[/color]

>

>You and he will obviously be happier with the TI one and so should it

>and exchange.

>[/color]

Go away. HP is REQUIRED for whatever reasons. Of course, I would be

much happier with TI. Calculator with trigonometric function is a joke

A.L.

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:24:50 -0700 (PDT), Gene <gene.wright@gmail.com>

wrote:

[color=blue]

>

>4) If this is such a big deal to you, might I suggest you do more

>research before buying a machine in the future? It is very plain that

>the 17BII+ does not have trig functions even with 5 minutes of

>searching. Since none of its ancestors in its direct line ever had

>trig functions, it was a mistake to assume it did without checking.

>

>Finally,[/color]

Finally, reqading with understanding has great future. But it seems to

be hard.

Label A: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course.

REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS

CALCULATOR.

If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label A.

Other course REQUIRES trigonometric functions. BOTH IN BUSINESS

SCHOOL.[color=blue]

>

>5) I agree with Tim. Perhaps you should simply go buy a TI? Of course,

>you won't have any equations at all, will you? Enjoy![/color]

Label B: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course.

REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS

CALCULATOR.

If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label B.

Bottom line: I purchased for him also TI BA II PROFESSIONAL.[color=blue]

>

>Gene

>

>P.S. I do agree that the inclusion of PI makes no sense on the 17b2+.[/color]

Then, what I shoud say this kid: "How I will calculate periodic

demand?"...

A.L.

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:28:13 -0500, "John H Meyers"

<jhmeyers@nomail.invalid> wrote:

[color=blue]

>

>As for the buyer who purchases blindly,

>without even looking at product specs,[/color]

How many times I will keep repeating: THIS CALCULATOR IS REQUIRED FOR

SOME COURSE, and OTHER COURSE REQUIERS TRIG FUNCTIONS.

[color=blue]

>that's a whole other area of inadequacy,

>not attributable to any product or manufacturer

>which clearly and honestly states its specifications up front.

>[/color]

And THIS IS GOOD CALCULATOR, BUT CALCULATOR WITHOUT TRIG IS A TRASH.

Whatever is manufacturer and whatever specs says. I don't know any

other calculator that doesn't provide trigs, except HP.

By the way, this is in sync with "great" design of new HP 35, that has

complex trig functions, but not inverse, that has no complex

hyperbolic functions, where you cannot calculate conjugate complex,

and where you cannot extract real and imaginary.

The same idea: use slide rule. There should be attached slide rule.

With HP logo.

A.L.

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

On Sep 21, 5:45*pm, A.L. <alewa...@zanoza.com> wrote:[color=blue]

> Go away. HP is REQUIRED for whatever reasons. Of course, I would be

> much happier with TI. Calculator with trigonometric function is a joke

>[/color]

I suppose you could program the trig functions using their Taylor

series expansions...

TI BA II Plus PROFESSIONAL looks like a good choice. Vanilla TI BA II

Plus looks like it's built to the same form factor as the TI-30X IIS

which has poor key quality.

Schools should not require a certain brand of calculator, whether

that's TI, HP, Casio, Sharp, or whatever. Teachers/professors/

textbooks should not be bought off by a particular calculator

manufacturer to only teach using that brand. All that does is forces a

monopoly.

S.C.

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

> Label A: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course.[color=blue]

> REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS

> CALCULATOR.[/color]

Well if you said that in the first place we wouldn't have assumed

otherwise.

[color=blue]

> If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label A.[/color]

There was no label A until now. Is it our fault you didn't bother to

give relevant information?

[color=blue]

> Other course REQUIRES trigonometric functions. BOTH IN BUSINESS

> SCHOOL.[/color]

Yup. Hence the fact that the new business calc has them.

[color=blue]

> Label B: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course.

> REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS

> CALCULATOR.[/color]

Error, goto start. . . rinse. . . repeat. . .

[color=blue]

> Then, what I shoud say this kid: "How I will calculate periodic

> demand?"...[/color]

Then why should we bother to show you how to get around this when all

you ever do is insult, troll, and generally behave disagreeably?

(said with a wheezy voice) "He has chosen. . . pooooorly."

TW

PS - most successful business calculator ever in the history of this

planet has no trig functions. . .

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

On Sep 21, 5:58*pm, A.L. <alewa...@zanoza.com> wrote:[color=blue]

> How many times I will keep repeating: THIS CALCULATOR IS REQUIRED FOR

> SOME COURSE, and OTHER COURSE REQUIERS TRIG FUNCTIONS.[/color]

[color=blue]

> By the way, this is in sync with "great" design of new HP 35, that has

> complex trig functions, but not inverse, that has no complex

> hyperbolic functions, where you cannot calculate conjugate complex,

> and where you cannot extract real and imaginary.[/color]

TI-84+ is REQUIRED for statistics course; other course in MATHEMATICS

department requires complex trig. Whoops! Better get my HP50.

S.C.

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

[re courses requiring specific calculators]

Direct rant at school which doesn't allow choice;

neither HP nor the product had anything to do with that.

"Wail, for the world's wrong."

[url]http://www.bartleby.com/66/31/53931.html[/url]

"Wise men ne'er sit and wail their woes,

But presently prevent the ways to wail."

[url]http://www.bartleby.com/66/85/50285.html[/url]

-[ ]-

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

> TI-84+ is REQUIRED for statistics course; other course in MATHEMATICS[color=blue]

> department requires complex trig. Whoops! Better get my HP50.[/color]

I've also never had any trouble in any courses that require a specific

unit. All it generally means is that you don't get any help when you

ask the teacher. Considering I always knew more about calculators

than the professor, this was never much of a problem. In fact, the

reason i wrote the stat pack that clones everything on the 83/84 and

adds a lot more, was for a younger sister to use on her 39 when she

took the same stupid statistics class I took in high school.

TW

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

[email]sc_usenet@hotmail.com[/email] wrote:

[color=blue]

> Schools should not require a certain brand of calculator, whether

> that's TI, HP, Casio, Sharp, or whatever. Teachers/professors/

> textbooks should not be bought off by a particular calculator

> manufacturer to only teach using that brand. All that does is forces a

> monopoly.[/color]

I agree in principle, although I do see the point that the teachers might

have, that it makes their lives a heck of a lot more complicated when they

have to accomodate a wide variety of tools... it would be a bit like if

every student was to pick his/her own text book.

One possible solution (I am an idealist :-) ) would be for the schools to

come up with an agreed upon detailed specs or standard, down to UI details

if they must, that each manufacturer could decide to implement.

--Sylvain

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

On Sep 21, 6:44*pm, Sylvain <s...@att.net> wrote:[color=blue]

> sc_use...@hotmail.com wrote:[color=green]

> > Schools should not require a certain brand of calculator, whether

> > that's TI, HP, Casio, Sharp, or whatever. Teachers/professors/

> > textbooks should not be bought off by a particular calculator

> > manufacturer to only teach using that brand. All that does is forces a

> > monopoly.[/color]

>

> I agree in principle, *although I do see the point that the teachers might

> have, *that it makes their lives a heck of a lot more complicated when they

> have to accomodate a wide variety of tools... *it would be a bit like if

> every student was to pick his/her own text book.

>

> One possible solution (I am an idealist :-) ) would be for the schools to

> come up with an agreed upon detailed specs or standard, *down to UI details

> if they must, that each manufacturer could decide to implement.

>

> --Sylvain[/color]

Or that students could actually read the manual of whichever

calculator they decide to buy, so that when the teacher says, for

instance, "Find the roots of this equation", each student knows

exactly what to do without the teacher walking through keystroke-by-

keystroke. Then as long as the calculator supports that particular

function or is programmable, it will work.

S.C.

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

[email]sc_usenet@hotmail.com[/email] wrote:

[color=blue][color=green]

>> One possible solution (I am an idealist :-) ) would be for the schools to

>> come up with an agreed upon detailed specs or standard, *[/color]

>

> Or that students could actually read the manual[/color]

I said that I was an idealist, not delusional :-)

--Sylvain

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

On Sep 21, 7:52*pm, Sylvain <s...@att.net> wrote:[color=blue]

> sc_use...@hotmail.com wrote:[color=green]

> > Or that students could actually read the manual[/color]

>

> I said that I was an idealist, not delusional :-)

>

> --Sylvain[/color]

Of course. My mistake. :)

S.C.

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

TW <timwessman@gmail.com> wrote:

: > Label A: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course.

: > REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS

: > CALCULATOR.

: Well if you said that in the first place we wouldn't have assumed

: otherwise.

: > If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label A.

: There was no label A until now. Is it our fault you didn't bother to

: give relevant information?

: > Other course REQUIRES trigonometric functions. BOTH IN BUSINESS

: > SCHOOL.

: Yup. Hence the fact that the new business calc has them.

: > Label B: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course.

: > REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS

: > CALCULATOR.

: Error, goto start. . . rinse. . . repeat. . .

: > Then, what I shoud say this kid: "How I will calculate periodic

: > demand?"...

: Then why should we bother to show you how to get around this when all

: you ever do is insult, troll, and generally behave disagreeably?

: (said with a wheezy voice) "He has chosen. . . pooooorly."

: TW

: PS - most successful business calculator ever in the history of this

: planet has no trig functions. . .

I have to admit I enjoy reading the trolls from a.l.. I would suggest that

people not to take the trolls seriously and to remember that the trolls are

setup so that there is never a solution.

--

-------------------

Keep working millions on welfare depend on you

Re: Who designed HP 17BII+?...

Get cheap calculator off the shelf at your local office supply store that

has trig functions.

"A.L." <alewando@zanoza.com> wrote in message

news:g5gdd4hj1c2lnlm7s35apnl0f81uccujq4@4ax.com...[color=blue]

> On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:24:50 -0700 (PDT), Gene <gene.wright@gmail.com>

> wrote:

>[color=green]

>>

>>4) If this is such a big deal to you, might I suggest you do more

>>research before buying a machine in the future? It is very plain that

>>the 17BII+ does not have trig functions even with 5 minutes of

>>searching. Since none of its ancestors in its direct line ever had

>>trig functions, it was a mistake to assume it did without checking.

>>

>>Finally,[/color]

>

> Finally, reqading with understanding has great future. But it seems to

> be hard.

>

> Label A: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course.

> REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS

> CALCULATOR.

>

> If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label A.

>

> Other course REQUIRES trigonometric functions. BOTH IN BUSINESS

> SCHOOL.[color=green]

>>

>>5) I agree with Tim. Perhaps you should simply go buy a TI? Of course,

>>you won't have any equations at all, will you? Enjoy![/color]

>

> Label B: HP 17bII+ IS REQUIRED, repeat IS REQUIRED for some course.

> REQUIRED, means, according to Webster, that HE MUST HAVE THIS

> CALCULATOR.

>

> If you understand statements above, go ahead. If not, go to Label B.

>

> Bottom line: I purchased for him also TI BA II PROFESSIONAL.[color=green]

>>

>>Gene

>>

>>P.S. I do agree that the inclusion of PI makes no sense on the 17b2+.[/color]

>

> Then, what I shoud say this kid: "How I will calculate periodic

> demand?"...

>

> A.L.[/color]