OT: Sleep Loss - Hewlett Packard

This is a discussion on OT: Sleep Loss - Hewlett Packard ; Hi James Hmmm.... Interesting concept for combat operations .... Awake for only 8 hours... Even in training operations and "non-combat ops" in Panama we were regularly going for 30+ hours... There even used to be a manual (FM) for the ...

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Thread: OT: Sleep Loss

  1. OT: Sleep Loss

    Hi James
    Hmmm.... Interesting concept for combat operations .... Awake for
    only 8 hours... Even in training operations and "non-combat ops" in
    Panama we were regularly going for 30+ hours... There even used to be a
    manual (FM) for the US Army titled "Continuous Operations" that dealt
    with how to handle the effects of lack of sleep to be able to be
    effective without sleep.

    I need to go research the studies you cite... They seem to be a bit
    extreme... But could be right... I know that I sleep 5 hours a night and
    don't seem to be suffering a loss of almost half of my baseline
    cognitive abilities... Tho' my "Better Half" might disagree with me
    hehehe

    The U.S. Army recommends 4 hours of sleep per 24 hours... And I must
    admit that after about 36 hours awake... I have to write things down to
    remember them for longer than about 30 minutes I have no clue what
    the record for going without sleep is but after about 72 hours... I am
    toast and write everything down and still forget to look at what I
    wrote... Sigh... Must be why I retired from the military


    Thanks,
    Art
    Art Bahrs, CISSP
    Security Engineer
    Providence Health & Services
    Arthur.Bahrs@Providence.org
    Phone: 503-216-2722


    -----Original Message-----
    From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    Behalf Of James B. Byrne
    Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 7:43 AM
    To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: Re: OT RE: McCain Running Mate

    On Mon, September 8, 2008 10:15, Johnson, Ted wrote:
    >
    > 2. Except in an declared emergency, no person, having the care,
    > custody or control of another person, or performing any duty that
    > presents a danger to the heath or safety of any other person, shall
    > work more than eight hours in any twenty-four hour period. Except in
    > a declared emergency, no person shall work more than ten hours in any
    > twenty-four hour period regardless of circumstance.
    >
    > So you are against Firefighters working 24 hour shifts?
    >


    Yes. Most emphatically. Chronic fatigue and exhaustion in health and
    safety workers is one of the most insidious and pervasive factors
    contributing to accidental death.

    Human beings simply do not respond well when they are tired. Research
    indicates that human response times after eight hours of continuous
    wakefulness is impaired to the same degree as the consumption of 30 ml
    of grain alcohol (Gaba D. & Howard S., 2002). Other research indicates
    that the effect grows progressively worse for each additional hour of
    continuous consciousness until a state of complete incapacitation is
    reached at about 20 hours (Jha, A. K., Bradford, Duncan, B.W., & Bates
    D.W., 2004). In fact, even when subjects are allowed to nap, those that
    sleep less than six consecutive hours in a twenty-four hour period
    suffer a 40% reduction to their baseline cognitive and response
    facilities.

    It borders on insanity to devise a system which demands that a person
    who has been awake for more than eight hours make life and death
    decisions.

    Pose the question this way: Are you against firefighters consuming
    alcohol while on duty? If so, then why would anyone support an
    employment practice that has the same effect?

    --
    *** E-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel ***
    James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca
    Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca
    9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241
    Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757
    Canada L8E 3C3

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  2. Re: OT: Sleep Loss

    On Mon, September 8, 2008 10:55, Bahrs, Art wrote:
    >
    > The U.S. Army recommends 4 hours of sleep per 24 hours... And I must
    > admit that after about 36 hours awake... I have to write things down to
    > remember them for longer than about 30 minutes I have no clue what
    > the record for going without sleep is but after about 72 hours... I am
    > toast and write everything down and still forget to look at what I
    > wrote... Sigh... Must be why I retired from the military
    >


    I stood watch-on/watch-off (12 hour shifts) as a submarine watch keeper
    for up to ninety days at a stretch. As executive officer in the surface
    fleet I would rise every day at sea at 03:30, have the galley fires lit,
    take over the morning bridge watch from 04:00 until 08:00 and, after
    spending all day dealing with each and every department head's daily list
    of defects, training reports, exercise serials, discipline issues and
    efficiency assessments I would finally end my day reviewing the ships
    stores consumption reports and punishment book until 22:00. Again, this
    routine would persist for weeks on end. I now recognize that by the end
    of the first week at sea I was probably little more than a walking
    automaton and that tasks that took me all day to complete probably should
    not have consumed more than a few hours had I been rested.

    The problem with being impaired is that until its effects become too gross
    to deny, usually because we are confronted with some adverse event such as
    an automobile accident, the one impaired has no way of assessing their
    degree of impairment.

    Considering combat and sleep. Blue on blue incidents to not seem to occur
    with fresh troops as often as they do with troops that have been engaged
    for prolonged periods without adequate rest. Command failures to not seem
    to occur with anything like the same frequency in fresh troops as they do
    in tired ones. Military operations tend to make most of their gains in
    their first few hours and then become less and less productive and more
    and more costly.

    So I would say that the idea of four hours of rest in twenty-four being
    adequate simply reflects military assessment of the value the human asset.
    An active presence counts for far more than capability at the individual
    level. Combat is, after all, a very rare event when compared to the
    totality of military activity. Its effects are experienced by very few
    percentage of all military personnel and even among those, relatively
    infrequently. It is the grave consequences of combat that magnify its
    effect in our imaginations.

    Recall that the primary purpose of ground forces is simply to be there and
    to encounter the enemy. Most of the actual killing is done by explosive
    delivered at long range. You do not have to be particularly alert to get
    shot at and thus fix your opponent's position for the pilots and
    artillerymen. The risks posed by fatigue to the individual soldier may be
    great but its cost to overall military effectiveness is negligible.

    The problem with the military, as with many male dominated professions, is
    that sleep deprivation is considered by many as a "test" of manliness.
    The ability to keep on going for days at a stretch is reckoned a measure
    of ability and not, as it should be, seen as a grave character defect
    demonstrating poor judgement.

    Given the choice, would anyone here prefer to be operated on by a surgeon
    that has just risen from a refreshing eight hour sleep, or one starting
    hour 23 of a 24 hour shift? Why should anyone ever have to accept less
    than the absolute best care that can be provided?

    --
    *** E-Mail is NOT a SECURE channel ***
    James B. Byrne mailto:ByrneJB@Harte-Lyne.ca
    Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca
    9 Brockley Drive vox: +1 905 561 1241
    Hamilton, Ontario fax: +1 905 561 0757
    Canada L8E 3C3

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


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