On Aug 12, 5:50*pm, sc_use...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 12, 2:01*pm, "John H Meyers" wrote:
>
> > But can it play music videos?http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004TVDN
>
> > The "user reviews" for the product above are interesting.
>
> > For example, a teacher writes:
>
> > * Hands down, the Casio wins, and it is cheaper as well.
> > * The calculator is more user friendly.
> > * The options are menu driven in a more intuitive way.
> > * What took me a minute or two to locate and figure out out the TI,
> > * took less than half the time on the Casio...
> > * The color thing I suppose is nice,
> > * but I use the CFX-9750, which is black and white and cheaper.
>
> TI has the USA school system eating out of its hands. Their marketing
> division deserves some credit though with the TI-83/84 series hype.
> The original vanilla TI-83 was introduced 12 years ago in 1996. Now,
> it is still being sold, though re-named the TI-84+/silver. The TI-84's
> promise keystroke-for-keystroke compatibility with the TI-83, which is
> a fancy way of saying "We didn't bother to put any new features into
> this 12-year-old calculator."
>
> I prefer my $9 Casio fx-260 solar pocket scientific to the brick-sized
> TI-84's. I can do calculations faster on the Casio than the TI because
> it uses a mixed ALG/RPN entry (though I prefer pure RPN
>
> Another interesting fact is that currently on Amazon, the TI-84 silver
> sells for $135 while the 50g sells for only $118. A no-brainer if
> there ever was one. [Even if you refuse to go HP, the TI-89 Titanium
> costs only $140, making me strongly question why anyone would buy the
> TI-84 silver]

The issue here is the arguably unlawful mandating of a specific
calculator by teachers in public schools who have books with Ti-83
instructions, and no other. Consider that many average idiots could
not do anything complicated with a graphing calculator without step by
step instructions. (These are the people who have trouble getting into
a community college). If those idiots had an HP50g, there is almost no
way the teacher would be able to provide the needed step by step
instructions unless they were very familiar with the calculator.

This even hurts the sales of the TI-89. Well, that and the fact that
some tests ban the TI-89 due to the CAS.

On Aug 12, 9:39*pm, username localhost
wrote:
> On Aug 12, 5:50*pm, sc_use...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 12, 2:01*pm, "John H Meyers" wrote:
>
> > > But can it play music videos?http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004TVDN
>
> > > The "user reviews" for the product above are interesting.
>
> > > For example, a teacher writes:
>
> > > * Hands down, the Casio wins, and it is cheaper as well.
> > > * The calculator is more user friendly.
> > > * The options are menu driven in a more intuitive way.
> > > * What took me a minute or two to locate and figure out out the TI,
> > > * took less than half the time on the Casio...
> > > * The color thing I suppose is nice,
> > > * but I use the CFX-9750, which is black and white and cheaper.
>
> > TI has the USA school system eating out of its hands. Their marketing
> > division deserves some credit though with the TI-83/84 series hype.
> > The original vanilla TI-83 was introduced 12 years ago in 1996. Now,
> > it is still being sold, though re-named the TI-84+/silver. The TI-84's
> > promise keystroke-for-keystroke compatibility with the TI-83, which is
> > a fancy way of saying "We didn't bother to put any new features into
> > this 12-year-old calculator."
>
> > I prefer my $9 Casio fx-260 solar pocket scientific to the brick-sized
> > TI-84's. I can do calculations faster on the Casio than the TI because
> > it uses a mixed ALG/RPN entry (though I prefer pure RPN
>
> > Another interesting fact is that currently on Amazon, the TI-84 silver
> > sells for $135 while the 50g sells for only $118. A no-brainer if
> > there ever was one. [Even if you refuse to go HP, the TI-89 Titanium
> > costs only $140, making me strongly question why anyone would buy the
> > TI-84 silver]
>
> The issue here is the arguably unlawful mandating of a specific
> calculator by teachers in public schools who have books with Ti-83
> instructions, and no other. Consider that many average idiots could
> not do anything complicated with a graphing calculator without step by
> step instructions. (These are the people who have trouble getting into
> a community college). If those idiots had an HP50g, there is almost no
> way the teacher would be able to provide the needed step by step
> instructions unless they were very familiar with the calculator.
>
> This even hurts the sales of the TI-89. Well, that and the fact that
> some tests ban the TI-89 due to the CAS.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

We really have a great discussion going on here! When will HP
call its graphing calculators by what they really are-computers
or would that be a marketing blunder? I think the graphing
computer would tantalize the imagination of the high school
or college student shopping for a calculator. Better yet, a
hand-held graphing computer, because that would remove any
ambiguity that it might be a notebook computer. I think the
greatest strength of any calculator is the ability to customize
it to work the way I work. The USER mode allows me to assign
keys but I have to memorize their assignments unless I can
put an overlay over the keyboard like the 48 series allowed you
to do. The quality of the hardware is also important to me. The
black plastic bezel on my 49 G+ cracked after minimal use.
I don't expect my calculator to endure the rigors of outdoor or
industrial use but I do expect to get some use out of it before
it degrades. Finally, I would like to see an HP-supported SDK
that includes really good documentation for those of us who
are not professional programmers, computer scientists, or
electrical engineers. I see a lot of people on this Usenet
group who are interested in going beyond the User Manual
and I think HP should support them because happy users
promote sales!

While not HP-supported
we have hpgcc 2.0 and soon 3.0
which needs AFAIK a patched ROM
(may it be official, please)
AND
Debug4x + emulators for sysRPL work
plus MASD that works on the calc

wrote in message
news:fc7ec19c-29a5-45af-8306-c14c386ccc90@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
X
Finally, I would like to see an HP-supported SDK
that includes really good documentation for those of us who
are not professional programmers, computer scientists, or
electrical engineers. I see a lot of people on this Usenet
group who are interested in going beyond the User Manual
and I think HP should support them because happy users
promote sales!

On 2008-08-11 22:53:17 +1000, "cyrille de brebisson" said:

> hello,
>
> not true.
>
> cyrille

maybe only you care .. but is that enough?

--
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security,
deserve neither liberty or security (Benjamin Franklin)

Knowing what your customers are willing to pay for is no easy task,
not least because there are so many different users, with very very
different needs.

As an old example, i remembered having read a complain from land
surveyors
when the 48GX was phased out in favor of a much more powerfull
unit ...
which lacked a critical feature for them (i think it was serial
connexion).
That's the kind of error which makes you loose a complete customer's
sector
(now, this is "just" an illustration, i'm not assuming it was good or
bad, this part is HP strategy).

This is a job that the Marketing team should handle, if it ever
exists.
It wouldn't be the first time that a company is poorly served by
abysmal marketing though.

In this newsgroup, we are likely to find requests from die-hard users,
extremely technicals, with very deep requests, which are bound to be
uninteresting to most casual users.

True but,
as any buzz-marketer should know,
this is exactly this kind of customer group which "builds up" a
brand,
making it acknowledged as a "must have" product to less-involved but
still paying users.
This could be usefully considered as "communication" effort.

But well, as just said, this should be handled by marketing, not R&D
teams,
nowadays, technical teams have little cloud & power to steer company
decisions.
Quite a pity if you ask me, and that's the way it is...

On Aug 12, 11:07*pm, mnhollin...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Aug 12, 9:39*pm, username localhost
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 12, 5:50*pm, sc_use...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 12, 2:01*pm, "John H Meyers" wrote:
>
> > > > But can it play music videos?http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004TVDN
>
> > > > The "user reviews" for the product above are interesting.
>
> > > > For example, a teacher writes:
>
> > > > * Hands down, the Casio wins, and it is cheaper as well.
> > > > * The calculator is more user friendly.
> > > > * The options are menu driven in a more intuitive way.
> > > > * What took me a minute or two to locate and figure out out the TI,
> > > > * took less than half the time on the Casio...
> > > > * The color thing I suppose is nice,
> > > > * but I use the CFX-9750, which is black and white and cheaper.
>
> > > TI has the USA school system eating out of its hands. Their marketing
> > > division deserves some credit though with the TI-83/84 series hype.
> > > The original vanilla TI-83 was introduced 12 years ago in 1996. Now,
> > > it is still being sold, though re-named the TI-84+/silver. The TI-84's
> > > promise keystroke-for-keystroke compatibility with the TI-83, which is
> > > a fancy way of saying "We didn't bother to put any new features into
> > > this 12-year-old calculator."
>
> > > I prefer my $9 Casio fx-260 solar pocket scientific to the brick-sized
> > > TI-84's. I can do calculations faster on the Casio than the TI because
> > > it uses a mixed ALG/RPN entry (though I prefer pure RPN
>
> > > Another interesting fact is that currently on Amazon, the TI-84 silver
> > > sells for $135 while the 50g sells for only $118. A no-brainer if
> > > there ever was one. [Even if you refuse to go HP, the TI-89 Titanium
> > > costs only $140, making me strongly question why anyone would buy the
> > > TI-84 silver]
>
> > The issue here is the arguably unlawful mandating of a specific
> > calculator by teachers in public schools who have books with Ti-83
> > instructions, and no other. Consider that many average idiots could
> > not do anything complicated with a graphing calculator without step by
> > step instructions. (These are the people who have trouble getting into
> > a community college). If those idiots had an HP50g, there is almost no
> > way the teacher would be able to provide the needed step by step
> > instructions unless they were very familiar with the calculator.
>
> > This even hurts the sales of the TI-89. Well, that and the fact that
> > some tests ban the TI-89 due to the CAS.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> We really have a great discussion going on here! When will HP
> call its graphing calculators by what they really are-computers
> or would that be a marketing blunder? I think the graphing
> computer would tantalize the imagination of the high school
> or college student shopping for a calculator. Better yet, a
> hand-held graphing computer, because that would remove any
> ambiguity that it might be a notebook computer. I think the
> greatest strength of any calculator is the ability to customize
> it to work the way I work.

> The USER mode allows me to assign
> keys but I have to memorize their assignments unless I can
> put an overlay over the keyboard like the 48 series allowed you
> to do.

Many people assign to user keys based on the existing functions of the
keys,
making allowing one to avoid the need of completely memorizing the
functions

The newer Calcs do not have special support for overlays, but that
does not mean overlays are not possible. See
http://pssllc.com/index.php?main_pag...&products_id=7
for an example of an overlay for the 50G+ despite the lack of hardware
support.

>The quality of the hardware is also important to me. The
> black plastic bezel on my 49 G+ cracked after minimal use.
> I don't expect my calculator to endure the rigors of outdoor or
> industrial use but I do expect to get some use out of it before
> it degrades. Finally, I would like to see an HP-supported SDK
> that includes really good documentation for those of us who
> are not professional programmers, computer scientists, or
> electrical engineers.

> I see a lot of people on this Usenet
> group who are interested in going beyond the User Manual
> and I think HP should support them because happy users
> promote sales!

The simple fact is that Corporate is apparently really not that
interested in the Calculator division.
They would rather focus their time on the other divisions. That is
quite likely why the marketing
and software support (manuals, sdks, etc) of HP Calculators has been
lass than stellar. As long as the
calculator division remains profitable and has reasonable small
expenditure and does not pester corporate
more than necessary, corporate is happy to leave it alone. If the
calculator division is seen as requiring
too much corporate attention it is more likely to be axed.

Cyrille, does that sound about right?

The one thing that would be really nice is if the calculator division
were spun off as a seperate company, or perhaps transferred over to
Agilent Technologies (The spin off company that had most of HP's
oldest divisions). I would tend to guess that Agilent would have kept
the calculator product line more healthy.

I will say that these days the need for powerful pocket calculators in
engineering is dying, mostly due to excellent computer software, and
extremely portable PCs, but I doubt the market is completly gone.
After all, calculator keyboards are often more convient for entering
mathematical expressions than most computer keyboards.

"Sylvain" wrote in message
news:7IGdne2aa5wnxDzVnZ2dnUVZ_sDinZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
> other question: why does the top of the line 50g doesn't have a color
> display?

I'd rather have higher resolution that color, personally. Color (or at least
greyscale) is handy for differentiating multiple plots on a graph though,
certainly.

"Yann" wrote in message
news:413acbab-f3a9-4756-9977-471c7902fcb8@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> In this newsgroup, we are likely to find requests from die-hard users,
> extremely technicals, with very deep requests, which are bound to be
> uninteresting to most casual users.

This is the reason that, historically, HP had lots of different machines to
choose from: Cheaper, less-powerful ones for "casual" users, and of course the
HP-41 series, then -28 and -48 and -49 and -50 for "die-hard" users. In
general the die-hard users are absolutely willing to pay more than the
"casual" user for the extra features they desire, too.

Even for such commodity products as wireless routers, some companies have
figured this out: Asus sells their "Premium" line of routers (e.g., WL-500gP)
that simply have twice as much RAM and flash ROM as their "regular" models.
To the "casual" user, this is of no benefit whatsoever, but for the "power
user" people go and start running, e.g., BitTorrent clients or web cams or
Python scripts or whatever and fully benefit from the extra memory.

> nowadays, technical teams have little cloud & power to steer company
> decisions.

In big companies, yes. But the calculator division of HP isn't more than
something like a dozen? people anyway (hard to say since, as I recall, the
calculator division only has a few full-time employees but uses lots of other
in-house engineers part-time), so there's no reason it has to be run from a
"big company" vantage point.

It's really a shame that Hydrix wasn't able to obtain enough funding to get
Qonos into production.

---Joel

On Aug 18, 12:41*pm, "Joel Koltner"
wrote:
> > other question: *why does the top of the line 50g doesn't have a color
> > display?
>
> I'd rather have higher resolution that color, personally. *Color (or atleast
> greyscale) is handy for differentiating multiple plots on a graph though,
> certainly.

I agree that resolution is more important than color. A low-resolution
color display would not help differentiate between different plots -
the graphs would all coincide (or at least be close to each other) on
a low resolution display.

S.C.

On Aug 18, 12:57*pm, "Joel Koltner"
wrote:
> This is the reason that, historically, HP had lots of different machines to
> choose from: Cheaper, less-powerful ones for "casual" users, and of course the
> HP-41 series, then -28 and -48 and -49 and -50 for "die-hard" users. *In
> general the die-hard users are absolutely willing to pay more than the
> "casual" user for the extra features they desire, too.

HP hardly as a "cheaper" scientific calculator these days. The 35s in
the $50-60 range can hardly be called affordable in the age of sub-$10
pocket scientifics from other manufacturers such as Casio and TI. The
problem is that "casual" users no longer go HP simply because HP's
cost too much.

In contrast, the 50g makes the HP48 series no longer only for "die-
hard" users. At about $120, it is both cheaper and more capable than
its competition (TI, for example). Whereas the 35s is several times
more expensive than its competition, the 50g can compete favorably.

HP needs to release a capable RPN pocket scientific in the sub-$20
range to compete successfully in that market.

S.C.

SC Usenet wrote:
> Whereas the 35s is several times more expensive
> than its competition, the 50g can compete favorably.

The 35s has no competition, at least not in the US. I believe it (along
with its $20-cheaper sibling 33s) is the only programmable scientific
calculator on the market.

> HP needs to release a capable RPN pocket scientific in the
> sub-$20 range to compete successfully in that market.

I agree they should release a non-programmable RPN scientific to be
competitive. The $40 HP 20b is price-competitive with the $33 TI BA II
PLUS. TI has several scientific calculators with quality comparable to that
of the TI BA II PLUS, such as the $15 TI-30X IIB and IIS. Can HP produce a
$20 RPN scientific version of the 20b? That's what it would take to be
competitive -- not another RPN-lacking 10s.

Though maybe it would do little good. As has been pointed out already, the
50g is price-competitive with the vastly inferior TI-84 (or the powerful but
little-known, compared to the 83/84, TI-89), but the teachers have been
bribed to only recommend the 83/84, so that's what the students buy.

Regards,

Eric Rechlin

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:50:55 -0700 (PDT), sc_usenet@hotmail.com wrote:

>
>Another interesting fact is that currently on Amazon, the TI-84 silver
>sells for $135 while the 50g sells for only $118. A no-brainer if
>there ever was one. [Even if you refuse to go HP, the TI-89 Titanium
>costs only $140, making me strongly question why anyone would buy the
>TI-84 silver]
>

Because it is better than HP50. For high school student

A.L.

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:29:49 -0500, "Eric Rechlin"
wrote:

>SC Usenet wrote:
>> Whereas the 35s is several times more expensive
>> than its competition, the 50g can compete favorably.
>
>The 35s has no competition, at least not in the US. I believe it (along
>with its $20-cheaper sibling 33s) is the only programmable scientific
>calculator on the market.
>
>> HP needs to release a capable RPN pocket scientific in the
>> sub-$20 range to compete successfully in that market.
>
>I agree they should release a non-programmable RPN scientific to be
>competitive. The $40 HP 20b is price-competitive with the $33 TI BA II
>PLUS. TI has several scientific calculators with quality comparable to that
>of the TI BA II PLUS, such as the $15 TI-30X IIB and IIS. Can HP produce a
>$20 RPN scientific version of the 20b? That's what it would take to be
>competitive -- not another RPN-lacking 10s.

What country are you from? Maybe in Europe high school students are
smart enough to master RPN. Maybe teachers in Europe are smart enough
to master RPN. But Europe is not the Whole World.

A.L.

On Aug 18, 9:31*pm, A.L. wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:50:55 -0700 (PDT), sc_use...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >Another interesting fact is that currently on Amazon, the TI-84 silver
> >sells for $135 while the 50g sells for only $118. A no-brainer if
> >there ever was one. [Even if you refuse to go HP, the TI-89 Titanium
> >costs only $140, making me strongly question why anyone would buy the
> >TI-84 silver]
>
> Because it is better than HP50. For high *school student
>
> A.L.

For the average USA high school student (who struggles with math), the
TI-84 is better than the HP 50g because teachers are more familiar
with the TI and can show their students exactly what to do. Not sure I
agree with the teaching method (do the kids learn math or just how to
push buttons?) but it's the truth.

The same high school student can save himself over $100 by using a
simple scientific calculator (the TI-84's don't do anything that the
scientifics can't do, besides graph) and actually learning enough
mathematics to visualize the simple graphs encountered during class.

HP 50g is better than the TI for non-students.

S.C.

"Eric Rechlin" wrote in message
news:6guifuFhk3o9U1@mid.individual.net...
> The 35s has no competition, at least not in the US. I believe it (along
> with its $20-cheaper sibling 33s) is the only programmable scientific
> calculator on the market.

You need to throw "non-graphing" in there, but otherwise, yes, this is
essentially true... and unfortunate.

On Aug 19, 3:29*am, "Eric Rechlin" wrote:
> Though maybe it would do little good. As has been pointed out already, the
> 50g is price-competitive with the vastly inferior TI-84 (or the powerful but
> little-known, compared to the 83/84, TI-89), but the teachers have been
> bribed to only recommend the 83/84, so that's what the students buy.

I must have missed that memo. Where do I sign up to receive my
bribe? :-)

I'm a long-time RPN user and would love for some of my high school
students to have RPN calculators. However, the inertia of the market
place is difficult to overcome. While I am primarily interested in a
tool to teach math/physics concepts, students' priorities are often
"What do my friends have?" and "What color is it?" (Pink, orange,
blue and baby blue seem to be popular this year.)

As much as I dislike the TI-83/84, I have to give a nod to their
marketing. They know their target market and have covered all the
bases: training for teachers, integration with textbooks, cool-factor
for students. They've created a need for their product (textbooks),
developed a group of people who promote their product (teachers), and
have convinced a group of fickle consumers that they need their
inferior product.

There was a time in the early 90's when HP-28's and 48's were the cool
calculators among my top students. I'm convinced that the 48gII is an
ideal high school calculator, but you can't expect students to buy
them them when the vast majority of teachers have never even heard of
them.

-wes

"Wes" wrote in message
news:ee1b7a79-91c6-4457-a6b5-0123e2ddc896@y38g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
"I'm convinced that the 48gII is an
ideal high school calculator, but you can't expect students to buy
them them when the vast majority of teachers have never even heard of
them."

For all the lip service that society pays to making students critical,
independent thinkers, if anything it seems as if actually doing a little
thinking for yourself and choosing what's best for you rather than "what
everyone else has" is less common today than it was decades back.

And look at how popular convenant restrictions are in new housing
developments -- you can be as creative as you want in the design of your home,
so long as you first get all the plantings, colors, vehicle storage locations,
and floorplan are first all approved by others. God help us all if a neighbor
wanted to paint his house purple with pink polka dots!

Or buy his kid an HP 48gII.

Wes wrote:
> As much as I dislike the TI-83/84, I have to give a nod to their
> marketing. They know their target market and have covered all the
> bases: training for teachers, integration with textbooks, cool-factor
> for students. They've created a need for their product (textbooks),
> developed a group of people who promote their product (teachers), and
> have convinced a group of fickle consumers that they need their
> inferior product.

That's exactly what I meant by "bribe". If you give the teachers free
lesson plans, they are much more likely to use your product than if they had
to spend many hours on their own (and teachers, particularly younger ones
who would be more interested in technology, have a lot less free time than
some think!) to develop their own lesson plans.

If HP is serious about the education market, they will have to do exactly
what TI does -- create a comprehensive set of lesson plans, train the
teachers, and convince the textbook manufacturers to mention their products.
The first two will have to happen before the third, and it will take years
to truly show results. They don't even need to develop a new calculator,
because the 39gs is already an excellent calculator for students in the
14-17 age group who are (typically, and understandably) not interested in
taking the few minutes/hours to learn RPN/RPL.

> (Pink, orange, blue and baby blue seem to be popular this year.)

Maybe HP could bring back the old HP 49G, if metallic baby blue is back in
style! Hopefully rubber keys and rainbow screen covers (from the units made
in Indonesia) are also fashionable...

Regards,

Eric Rechlin

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:38:14 -0500, A.L. wrote:

> What country are you from?
> Maybe in Europe high school students
> are smart enough to master RPN.

> Maybe teachers in Europe are smart enough to master RPN.

In my days in a USA elementary school,
all calculations were performed
by first writing down the numbers,
then commencing to perform the arithmetic upon them.

That's exactly what "RPN" is, so back in those days,
everyone who graduated my USA elementary school
(and necessarily even those who taught them)
were already "masters of RPN."

What do they do now in school -- start performing
the arithmetic before they write down the numbers
upon which it is to be performed?

Now _that_ must really take more smarts than we ever had

http://groups.google.com/group/comp....15564652d52afd

-[ ]-

On Aug 19, 8:10*pm, "John H Meyers" wrote:
> In my days in a USA elementary school,
> all calculations were performed
> by first writing down the numbers,
> then commencing to perform the arithmetic upon them.
>
> That's exactly what "RPN" is, so back in those days,
> everyone who graduated my USA elementary school
> (and necessarily even those who taught them)
> were already "masters of RPN."
>

How do you multiply two 3-digit integers by hand? You write one down,
then write down the second, then write down the operation to be
performed (the x for multiplication). The RPN calculator is an
extension to the brain -- you enter in the two numbers and then press
[x] to multiply them.

I can hardly imagine anyone who can just look at something like
246x894=? and multiply those two numbers on the spot just like that
(That's the TI way).

RPN just seems more natural, unless you never knew how to do the math
by hand in the first place.

S.C.