Re: <A PLUG> 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale - Hewlett Packard

This is a discussion on Re: <A PLUG> 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale - Hewlett Packard ; I guess my confusion is that with the "license" what is transferable and what is not? If the box has on it, say Cobol, TurboIMAGE, Glance etc. etc., if the license is not transferable does that mean I don't get ...

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Thread: Re: <A PLUG> 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale

  1. Re: <A PLUG> 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale

    I guess my confusion is that with the "license" what is transferable and
    what is not?

    If the box has on it, say Cobol, TurboIMAGE, Glance etc. etc., if the license
    is not transferable does that mean I don't get that software on the box
    if I buy it? Or does it "just" mean I can't call the HP hotline when the box
    dies a death (bad disk etc., system failures etc etc.)

    Also, if I buy the box from "Joe's Manufacturing Company" will it still have
    their name plastered all over it, or will it now have the new owner's name
    on it?

    Very confused about this "license" terminology and what it means and doesn't
    mean....


    Brian Donaldson.


    On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 16:08:12 -0700, Bahrs, Art
    wrote:

    >Hi Brett
    > Clarification Question... Are you saying (when you say
    >"non-transferable") that the buyer cannot move the license to another
    >machine or that the license will not transfer from the seller to the
    >buyer? I think I understand you to be saying the former and not the
    >latter..
    >
    >Art "just wondering" Bahrs
    >
    >Thanks,
    >Art
    >Art Bahrs, CISSP
    >Security Engineer
    >Providence Health & Services
    >Arthur.Bahrs@Providence.org
    >Phone: 503-216-2722
    >
    >
    >-----Original Message-----
    >From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    >Behalf Of Brett Forsyth
    >Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 3:33 PM
    >To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    >Subject: Re: 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale
    >
    >Hi Brian, just answered you offline, but let me hit the high points here
    >as well.
    >
    >If HP support is not required, then why is the license an issue? There
    >are many viable third party companies that can support these units for
    >both hardware and the OS - unless HP is a monopoly (and in violation the
    >Sherman Anti-Trust Act).
    >
    >Any HP machine is authorized to use the last running operating system
    >that was loaded on it when it was under support - on N class machines
    >this is usually 7.0 or 7.5. The OS is not separate from the machine -
    >it is part and parcel. Anybody every bought a machine from HP without
    >an OS? I don't believe that option is even available. Why should HP
    >get a second (third, fourth, fifth,etc.) licensing fee for the same box
    >with the same OS? Not like you can pull the OS off your 918 and pop it
    >on you new system - without
    >paying HP again. So if you can't just walk the OS your new system,
    >then
    >where does it go - with the old system? Things that make you go
    >"hmmmm...".
    >
    >Machines such as this are typically used for DR or testing, but there
    >are still many large organizations that are grabbing any units they can
    >find for the last remaining days of their transitions - licensed or not.
    >Survival is the key here and HP no longer supplies the lock. Short term
    >rentals where support is included, is another venue for these types of
    >machines.
    >
    >Besides, isn't HP e3000 support an oxymoron these days anyway?
    >
    >Do not let the HP fear mongers fool you. HP throws around the term
    >"legal" in a very loose way, and since they can long longer buy the FBI
    >to enforce this, it really is a non-issue. Just because HP says you
    >cannot do it, does not mean you can't - legally or otherwise - and there
    >are many legal precedents that support this. HP tends to bully their
    >customer base around on this issue, but have yet to prove it in a court
    >of law, and I doubt they could. IBM tried and lost in the early 80's,
    >and DEC again in the late 80's.
    >
    >Basically supply and demand is going on here - and there are not many
    >machines left. HP isn't (supposed to be) making any more, and many
    >large and small e3000 clients still need critical business solutions
    >that HP cannot (or will not) provide.
    >
    >As far as non-HP software support, it has been my experience that all
    >they really want is your model string, SUSN code and an extremely large
    >check.
    >
    >.. and don't get me started on the whole new RTU fiasco...
    >
    >
    >Well, that should get some conversation started....
    >
    >* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    >* etc., please visit
    http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
    >
    >
    >DISCLAIMER:
    >This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may contain

    information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure
    under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are hereby notified
    that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to anyone the messageor
    any information contained in the message. If you have received this message
    in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete
    this message.
    >
    >* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    >* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  2. Re: <A PLUG> 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale

    My understanding of the 3000 licensing rules are as follows:
    1. MPE FOS, IMAGE, TURBOSTORE, and ALLBASE are tied to the box proper
    and
    are not transferrable via Software License Transfer procedures to
    another
    HP3000.
    2. MPE Subsystems such as COBOL, FORTRAN, GLANCE, etc may be
    transferred to another
    box if both boxes are owned by the same entity.

    When a 3000 is sold, if the seller possesses (1) HP bill of sale, (2)
    Previous Software
    License Transfer document, or (3) an HP support contract document
    current within the last 12 months, the license to use all items listed
    above can be transferred to the new owner.

    This is of particular value when upgrading a platform in that the
    current s/w licenses can be traded in for credit against the upgrade
    costs.

    HP's RTU program presents a means of resetting the owner of record and
    attendant licenses for 3000s that have entered the market without any of
    the paperwork mentioned above. I think this was a positive move on HP's
    part, however, I feel the pricing is a bit out of line.

    If there is no licensing information available with a box, there is no
    guarantee that the s/w hasn't been pirated/cloned from other systems.

    In my opinion, this is a disservice to a purchaser in that they may have
    to purchase their entire s/w complement at full price or close to it.

    Jack Connor


    -----Original Message-----
    From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    Behalf Of Brian Donaldson
    Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 9:42 AM
    To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale

    I guess my confusion is that with the "license" what is transferable and
    what is not?

    If the box has on it, say Cobol, TurboIMAGE, Glance etc. etc., if the
    license is not transferable does that mean I don't get that software on
    the box if I buy it? Or does it "just" mean I can't call the HP hotline
    when the box dies a death (bad disk etc., system failures etc etc.)

    Also, if I buy the box from "Joe's Manufacturing Company" will it still
    have their name plastered all over it, or will it now have the new
    owner's name on it?

    Very confused about this "license" terminology and what it means and
    doesn't mean....


    Brian Donaldson.


    On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 16:08:12 -0700, Bahrs, Art

    wrote:

    >Hi Brett
    > Clarification Question... Are you saying (when you say
    >"non-transferable") that the buyer cannot move the license to another
    >machine or that the license will not transfer from the seller to the
    >buyer? I think I understand you to be saying the former and not the
    >latter..
    >
    >Art "just wondering" Bahrs
    >
    >Thanks,
    >Art
    >Art Bahrs, CISSP
    >Security Engineer
    >Providence Health & Services
    >Arthur.Bahrs@Providence.org
    >Phone: 503-216-2722
    >
    >
    >-----Original Message-----
    >From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    >Behalf Of Brett Forsyth
    >Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 3:33 PM
    >To:
    HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    >Subject: Re: 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale
    >
    >Hi Brian, just answered you offline, but let me hit the high points
    >here as well.
    >
    >If HP support is not required, then why is the license an issue? There


    >are many viable third party companies that can support these units for
    >both hardware and the OS - unless HP is a monopoly (and in violation
    >the Sherman Anti-Trust Act).
    >
    >Any HP machine is authorized to use the last running operating system
    >that was loaded on it when it was under support - on N class machines
    >this is usually 7.0 or 7.5. The OS is not separate from the machine -
    >it is part and parcel. Anybody every bought a machine from HP without
    >an OS? I don't believe that option is even available. Why should HP
    >get a second (third, fourth, fifth,etc.) licensing fee for the same box


    >with the same OS? Not like you can pull the OS off your 918 and pop it


    >on you new system - without
    >paying HP again. So if you can't just walk the OS your new system,
    >then
    >where does it go - with the old system? Things that make you go
    >"hmmmm...".
    >
    >Machines such as this are typically used for DR or testing, but there
    >are still many large organizations that are grabbing any units they can


    >find for the last remaining days of their transitions - licensed or

    not.
    >Survival is the key here and HP no longer supplies the lock. Short term


    >rentals where support is included, is another venue for these types of
    >machines.
    >
    >Besides, isn't HP e3000 support an oxymoron these days anyway?
    >
    >Do not let the HP fear mongers fool you. HP throws around the term
    >"legal" in a very loose way, and since they can long longer buy the FBI


    >to enforce this, it really is a non-issue. Just because HP says you
    >cannot do it, does not mean you can't - legally or otherwise - and
    >there are many legal precedents that support this. HP tends to bully
    >their customer base around on this issue, but have yet to prove it in a


    >court of law, and I doubt they could. IBM tried and lost in the early
    >80's, and DEC again in the late 80's.
    >
    >Basically supply and demand is going on here - and there are not many
    >machines left. HP isn't (supposed to be) making any more, and many
    >large and small e3000 clients still need critical business solutions
    >that HP cannot (or will not) provide.
    >
    >As far as non-HP software support, it has been my experience that all
    >they really want is your model string, SUSN code and an extremely large


    >check.
    >
    >.. and don't get me started on the whole new RTU fiasco...
    >
    >
    >Well, that should get some conversation started....
    >
    >* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    >* etc., please visit
    http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
    >
    >
    >DISCLAIMER:
    >This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may
    >contain

    information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure
    under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are hereby
    notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to anyone
    the message or any information contained in the message. If you have
    received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by
    reply email and delete this message.
    >
    >* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    >* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  3. Re: Licensing Questions Was RE: 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale

    Hello Jack, Brian, Craig, Brett and All

    I removed the Plug alert as this is no longer about selling something


    I am still a bit confused... Brett is sounding like one of the sales
    people at a used software store I recently visited when I asked about
    the actual license for a piece of software (no longer made... But the
    company is still around). The answer I got is "they aren't going to
    worry about whether you have a license for the software or not they
    don't sell it anymore". Note that I wanted to use the license to get
    another current software package at the "competitive upgrade rate" which
    requires I surrender the competing products license to the seller...

    Given the risk to a company, corporation and even and individual
    under the current *interpretation* of the laws concerning software
    usage... I question if Brett's answer is valid? Even if it is a low
    risk... If the moving of the software is not allowed under HP's rules
    and the law... Is it worth the risk? (think disgruntled employee
    'dropping a dime' about this to the BSA)

    Also a point to consider... What would your customers think if you
    had to explain to them why you are running a "wee bit loose" on the
    interpretation of ownership of software as you try to sell software to
    said customer? Will the customer think about just buying a copy from a
    reseller?

    Security point to consider as well... Have the drives being sold
    been truly cleared of data? PHI? PII? Customer data? If not the seller
    could be in violation of numerous laws and statutes (as well as the
    sales channels potentially). The Buyer could find themselves having to
    surrender the drives for the duration of the investigation... Or worse
    having to admit in the press they have seen data they shouldn't have
    SCSI is SCSI as I think Denys has commented... There are Freeware
    products that can read the drives... (Think fcopy like) and show
    interesting things

    Final note... Remember, always ask the questions and if the answers
    don't make you nice and comfortable... The additional cost or issue may
    not be worth it...

    Thanks,
    Art
    Art Bahrs, CISSP
    Security Engineer
    Providence Health & Services
    Arthur.Bahrs@Providence.org
    Phone: 503-216-2722


    -----Original Message-----
    From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    Behalf Of Jack Connor
    Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 7:14 AM
    To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: Re: 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale

    My understanding of the 3000 licensing rules are as follows:
    1. MPE FOS, IMAGE, TURBOSTORE, and ALLBASE are tied to the box proper
    and
    are not transferrable via Software License Transfer procedures to
    another
    HP3000.
    2. MPE Subsystems such as COBOL, FORTRAN, GLANCE, etc may be
    transferred to another
    box if both boxes are owned by the same entity.

    When a 3000 is sold, if the seller possesses (1) HP bill of sale, (2)
    Previous Software License Transfer document, or (3) an HP support
    contract document current within the last 12 months, the license to use
    all items listed above can be transferred to the new owner.

    This is of particular value when upgrading a platform in that the
    current s/w licenses can be traded in for credit against the upgrade
    costs.

    HP's RTU program presents a means of resetting the owner of record and
    attendant licenses for 3000s that have entered the market without any of
    the paperwork mentioned above. I think this was a positive move on HP's
    part, however, I feel the pricing is a bit out of line.

    If there is no licensing information available with a box, there is no
    guarantee that the s/w hasn't been pirated/cloned from other systems.

    In my opinion, this is a disservice to a purchaser in that they may have
    to purchase their entire s/w complement at full price or close to it.

    Jack Connor


    -----Original Message-----
    From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    Behalf Of Brian Donaldson
    Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 9:42 AM
    To:
    HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale

    I guess my confusion is that with the "license" what is transferable and
    what is not?

    If the box has on it, say Cobol, TurboIMAGE, Glance etc. etc., if the
    license is not transferable does that mean I don't get that software on
    the box if I buy it? Or does it "just" mean I can't call the HP hotline
    when the box dies a death (bad disk etc., system failures etc etc.)

    Also, if I buy the box from "Joe's Manufacturing Company" will it still
    have their name plastered all over it, or will it now have the new
    owner's name on it?

    Very confused about this "license" terminology and what it means and
    doesn't mean....


    Brian Donaldson.


    On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 16:08:12 -0700, Bahrs, Art

    wrote:

    >Hi Brett
    > Clarification Question... Are you saying (when you say
    >"non-transferable") that the buyer cannot move the license to another
    >machine or that the license will not transfer from the seller to the
    >buyer? I think I understand you to be saying the former and not the
    >latter..
    >
    >Art "just wondering" Bahrs
    >
    >Thanks,
    >Art
    >Art Bahrs, CISSP
    >Security Engineer
    >Providence Health & Services
    >Arthur.Bahrs@Providence.org
    >Phone: 503-216-2722
    >
    >
    >-----Original Message-----
    >From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    >Behalf Of Brett Forsyth
    >Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 3:33 PM
    >To:
    HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    >Subject: Re: 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale
    >
    >Hi Brian, just answered you offline, but let me hit the high points
    >here as well.
    >
    >If HP support is not required, then why is the license an issue? There


    >are many viable third party companies that can support these units for
    >both hardware and the OS - unless HP is a monopoly (and in violation
    >the Sherman Anti-Trust Act).
    >
    >Any HP machine is authorized to use the last running operating system
    >that was loaded on it when it was under support - on N class machines
    >this is usually 7.0 or 7.5. The OS is not separate from the machine -
    >it is part and parcel. Anybody every bought a machine from HP without
    >an OS? I don't believe that option is even available. Why should HP
    >get a second (third, fourth, fifth,etc.) licensing fee for the same box


    >with the same OS? Not like you can pull the OS off your 918 and pop it


    >on you new system - without
    >paying HP again. So if you can't just walk the OS your new system,
    >then
    >where does it go - with the old system? Things that make you go
    >"hmmmm...".
    >
    >Machines such as this are typically used for DR or testing, but there
    >are still many large organizations that are grabbing any units they can


    >find for the last remaining days of their transitions - licensed or

    not.
    >Survival is the key here and HP no longer supplies the lock. Short term


    >rentals where support is included, is another venue for these types of
    >machines.
    >
    >Besides, isn't HP e3000 support an oxymoron these days anyway?
    >
    >Do not let the HP fear mongers fool you. HP throws around the term
    >"legal" in a very loose way, and since they can long longer buy the FBI


    >to enforce this, it really is a non-issue. Just because HP says you
    >cannot do it, does not mean you can't - legally or otherwise - and
    >there are many legal precedents that support this. HP tends to bully
    >their customer base around on this issue, but have yet to prove it in a


    >court of law, and I doubt they could. IBM tried and lost in the early
    >80's, and DEC again in the late 80's.
    >
    >Basically supply and demand is going on here - and there are not many
    >machines left. HP isn't (supposed to be) making any more, and many
    >large and small e3000 clients still need critical business solutions
    >that HP cannot (or will not) provide.
    >
    >As far as non-HP software support, it has been my experience that all
    >they really want is your model string, SUSN code and an extremely large


    >check.
    >
    >.. and don't get me started on the whole new RTU fiasco...
    >
    >
    >Well, that should get some conversation started....
    >
    >* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    >* etc., please visit
    http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
    >
    >
    >DISCLAIMER:
    >This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may
    >contain

    information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure
    under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are hereby
    notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to anyone
    the message or any information contained in the message. If you have
    received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by
    reply email and delete this message.
    >
    >* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    >* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


    DISCLAIMER:
    This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete this message.

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  4. Re: Licensing Questions Was RE: 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale

    Well said, Art.

    I know not having the appropriate paperwork for audit or due-dlligence
    during an acquisition would present major problems.

    jack



    -----Original Message-----
    From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    Behalf Of Bahrs, Art
    Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 11:03 AM
    To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] Licensing Questions Was RE: 2 x
    e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale

    Hello Jack, Brian, Craig, Brett and All

    I removed the Plug alert as this is no longer about selling something


    I am still a bit confused... Brett is sounding like one of the sales
    people at a used software store I recently visited when I asked about
    the actual license for a piece of software (no longer made... But the
    company is still around). The answer I got is "they aren't going to
    worry about whether you have a license for the software or not they
    don't sell it anymore". Note that I wanted to use the license to get
    another current software package at the "competitive upgrade rate" which
    requires I surrender the competing products license to the seller...

    Given the risk to a company, corporation and even and individual
    under the current *interpretation* of the laws concerning software
    usage... I question if Brett's answer is valid? Even if it is a low
    risk... If the moving of the software is not allowed under HP's rules
    and the law... Is it worth the risk? (think disgruntled employee
    'dropping a dime' about this to the BSA)

    Also a point to consider... What would your customers think if you
    had to explain to them why you are running a "wee bit loose" on the
    interpretation of ownership of software as you try to sell software to
    said customer? Will the customer think about just buying a copy from a
    reseller?

    Security point to consider as well... Have the drives being sold
    been truly cleared of data? PHI? PII? Customer data? If not the seller
    could be in violation of numerous laws and statutes (as well as the
    sales channels potentially). The Buyer could find themselves having to
    surrender the drives for the duration of the investigation... Or worse
    having to admit in the press they have seen data they shouldn't have
    SCSI is SCSI as I think Denys has commented... There are Freeware
    products that can read the drives... (Think fcopy like) and show
    interesting things

    Final note... Remember, always ask the questions and if the answers
    don't make you nice and comfortable... The additional cost or issue may
    not be worth it...

    Thanks,
    Art
    Art Bahrs, CISSP
    Security Engineer
    Providence Health & Services
    Arthur.Bahrs@Providence.org
    Phone: 503-216-2722


    -----Original Message-----
    From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    Behalf Of Jack Connor
    Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 7:14 AM
    To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: Re: 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale

    My understanding of the 3000 licensing rules are as follows:
    1. MPE FOS, IMAGE, TURBOSTORE, and ALLBASE are tied to the box proper
    and
    are not transferrable via Software License Transfer procedures to
    another
    HP3000.
    2. MPE Subsystems such as COBOL, FORTRAN, GLANCE, etc may be
    transferred to another
    box if both boxes are owned by the same entity.

    When a 3000 is sold, if the seller possesses (1) HP bill of sale, (2)
    Previous Software License Transfer document, or (3) an HP support
    contract document current within the last 12 months, the license to use
    all items listed above can be transferred to the new owner.

    This is of particular value when upgrading a platform in that the
    current s/w licenses can be traded in for credit against the upgrade
    costs.

    HP's RTU program presents a means of resetting the owner of record and
    attendant licenses for 3000s that have entered the market without any of
    the paperwork mentioned above. I think this was a positive move on HP's
    part, however, I feel the pricing is a bit out of line.

    If there is no licensing information available with a box, there is no
    guarantee that the s/w hasn't been pirated/cloned from other systems.

    In my opinion, this is a disservice to a purchaser in that they may have
    to purchase their entire s/w complement at full price or close to it.

    Jack Connor


    -----Original Message-----
    From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    Behalf Of Brian Donaldson
    Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 9:42 AM
    To:
    HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale

    I guess my confusion is that with the "license" what is transferable and
    what is not?

    If the box has on it, say Cobol, TurboIMAGE, Glance etc. etc., if the
    license is not transferable does that mean I don't get that software on
    the box if I buy it? Or does it "just" mean I can't call the HP hotline
    when the box dies a death (bad disk etc., system failures etc etc.)

    Also, if I buy the box from "Joe's Manufacturing Company" will it still
    have their name plastered all over it, or will it now have the new
    owner's name on it?

    Very confused about this "license" terminology and what it means and
    doesn't mean....


    Brian Donaldson.


    On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 16:08:12 -0700, Bahrs, Art

    wrote:

    >Hi Brett
    > Clarification Question... Are you saying (when you say
    >"non-transferable") that the buyer cannot move the license to another
    >machine or that the license will not transfer from the seller to the
    >buyer? I think I understand you to be saying the former and not the
    >latter..
    >
    >Art "just wondering" Bahrs
    >
    >Thanks,
    >Art
    >Art Bahrs, CISSP
    >Security Engineer
    >Providence Health & Services
    >Arthur.Bahrs@Providence.org
    >Phone: 503-216-2722
    >
    >
    >-----Original Message-----
    >From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    >Behalf Of Brett Forsyth
    >Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 3:33 PM
    >To:
    HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    >Subject: Re: 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale
    >
    >Hi Brian, just answered you offline, but let me hit the high points
    >here as well.
    >
    >If HP support is not required, then why is the license an issue? There


    >are many viable third party companies that can support these units for
    >both hardware and the OS - unless HP is a monopoly (and in violation
    >the Sherman Anti-Trust Act).
    >
    >Any HP machine is authorized to use the last running operating system
    >that was loaded on it when it was under support - on N class machines
    >this is usually 7.0 or 7.5. The OS is not separate from the machine -
    >it is part and parcel. Anybody every bought a machine from HP without
    >an OS? I don't believe that option is even available. Why should HP
    >get a second (third, fourth, fifth,etc.) licensing fee for the same box


    >with the same OS? Not like you can pull the OS off your 918 and pop it


    >on you new system - without
    >paying HP again. So if you can't just walk the OS your new system,
    >then
    >where does it go - with the old system? Things that make you go
    >"hmmmm...".
    >
    >Machines such as this are typically used for DR or testing, but there
    >are still many large organizations that are grabbing any units they can


    >find for the last remaining days of their transitions - licensed or

    not.
    >Survival is the key here and HP no longer supplies the lock. Short term


    >rentals where support is included, is another venue for these types of
    >machines.
    >
    >Besides, isn't HP e3000 support an oxymoron these days anyway?
    >
    >Do not let the HP fear mongers fool you. HP throws around the term
    >"legal" in a very loose way, and since they can long longer buy the FBI


    >to enforce this, it really is a non-issue. Just because HP says you
    >cannot do it, does not mean you can't - legally or otherwise - and
    >there are many legal precedents that support this. HP tends to bully
    >their customer base around on this issue, but have yet to prove it in a


    >court of law, and I doubt they could. IBM tried and lost in the early
    >80's, and DEC again in the late 80's.
    >
    >Basically supply and demand is going on here - and there are not many
    >machines left. HP isn't (supposed to be) making any more, and many
    >large and small e3000 clients still need critical business solutions
    >that HP cannot (or will not) provide.
    >
    >As far as non-HP software support, it has been my experience that all
    >they really want is your model string, SUSN code and an extremely large


    >check.
    >
    >.. and don't get me started on the whole new RTU fiasco...
    >
    >
    >Well, that should get some conversation started....
    >
    >* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    >* etc., please visit
    http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
    >
    >
    >DISCLAIMER:
    >This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may
    >contain

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  5. Re: <A PLUG> 2 x e3000/N4000/400/75 for sale

    >
    > GROAAAANNNNNNNNNN!!!
    >


    Careful! You may no longer be who "Art in Heaven" even though you work for
    Providence on a daily basis...

    Mark "reading too many Roy Brown posts" W.

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  6. ORM for Image

    I'm currently working on an O/R mapper for Turbo Image. It is written in vb.net 2008 using the .net 3.5 framework.

    The generated O/R code is vb but I could also generate c# if I need to.

    The code is dependent on Minisoft's ODBC driver. That too could be changedto use other vendor's ODBC drivers.

    So, my question is: Would this be something other developers would be interested in?

    Thanks,

    Dave Vorgang

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  7. Re: ORM for Image

    I don't believe WilsonORMapper supports HP3000 Image databases.

    Dave Vorgang
    Senior Programmer / Analyst
    Medford School District - Information Technology
    (541) 842-1021
    mailtoave.Vorgang@Medford.k12.or.us


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Tony Tibbenham [mailto:ttibbenham@ssdm.co.uk]
    Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 9:52 AM
    To: Dave Vorgang
    Subject: RE: [HP3000-L] ORM for Image

    isn't http://www.ormapper.net/ close to what you want already?

    -----Original Message-----
    From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    Behalf Of Dave Vorgang
    Sent: 02 October 2008 17:21
    To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: [HP3000-L] ORM for Image

    I'm currently working on an O/R mapper for Turbo Image. It is written
    in vb.net 2008 using the .net 3.5 framework.

    The generated O/R code is vb but I could also generate c# if I need to.

    The code is dependent on Minisoft's ODBC driver. That too could be
    changed to use other vendor's ODBC drivers.

    So, my question is: Would this be something other developers would be
    interested in?

    Thanks,

    Dave Vorgang

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


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