Re: OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S. - Hewlett Packard

This is a discussion on Re: OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S. - Hewlett Packard ; On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:57:13 -0500, Joseph Dolliver wrote: >Hey, wait a minute here, you are talking about the USA. > >With that kind of talk the next thing will be are phones are being tapped and our rights ...

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Thread: Re: OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.

  1. Re: OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.

    On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:57:13 -0500, Joseph Dolliver
    wrote:

    >Hey, wait a minute here, you are talking about the USA.
    >
    >With that kind of talk the next thing will be are phones are being tapped and

    our rights of being a citizen will be diminished.
    >
    >Who do you think you are talking to anyway
    >


    Just part of the campaign to destroy Christian culture.

    >
    >>From: Ray Shahan
    >>Date: 2008/04/24 Thu AM 10:05:06 CDT
    >>To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    >>Subject: [HP3000-L] OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.

    >
    >>I've always been exceedingly proud to be a native Texan, but today, I
    >>hang my head in shame, disgust and anger. Texas is/was a place for
    >>families, but what's happened in West Texas smacks of Stalinism!!
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>I don't understand that much about the FLDS, and I don't agree with some
    >>of their beliefs (and some of the practices like underage or forced
    >>marriage should be stopped), but that DOESN'T MAKE THEM ALL CRIMINALS!!
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>We Texans have ripped 437 innocent children from their parents on what
    >>may turn out to be a prank phone call, however, even if the phone call
    >>were true, we should have went after the criminal - not innocent
    >>children and parents!!!
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>These 437 kids' and their parent's lives are, at the moment, destroyed,
    >>and it's a certainty that their lives will be forever changed by this
    >>event. Imagine someone taking your kids away, and your brother's kids,
    >>and your uncles kids, and sending them to a foster home hundreds of
    >>miles away, and their's nothing you can do about it?!
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>We Texans could have put an overseer into the compound to both insure
    >>safety, and to do investigations on the supposed crimes(s), or we could
    >>have removed the males from the compound while we did more
    >>investigations, but instead, we have heartlessly punished the children
    >>by tearing them from their parents/siblings, and all that they know and
    >>love. What's next? Do we go after the Mennonites and the Amish?
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>I can only imagine the horror these parents must feel not knowing what's
    >>to become of their children - not being able to comfort their children,
    >>and give them hugs and kisses goodnight, and my heart is truly broken
    >>when I think of those 437 children who will be in some foster home or
    >>group home among people/places/things they are unfamiliar with, they'll
    >>be frightened, confused, and longing for the love and security that can
    >>only come from family.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>It's truly a sad time for Texas and the U.S., and I, for one, will keep
    >>trying to remember that we are a nation founded on the principle that
    >>you are innocent until proven guilty, and that we do not punish children
    >>for the sins of their parents!!!!!
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/23/pol....ap/index.html
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>Raymond Shahan
    >>
    >>Information Systems
    >> REPUBLIC TITLE OF TEXAS, INC.
    >> 2701 W Plano Parkway
    >><http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?

    addr=2701+w+plano+parkway&csz=75075&c
    >>ountry=us&new=1&name=&qty=>
    >>Plano, TX 75075
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>direct 214.556.0202
    >>main 972.578.8611
    >>fax 972.424.5621
    >>
    >> www.republictitle.com
    >>
    >>rshahan@republictitle.com
    >>
    >>Life is not a journey to the grave with the
    >>intention of arriving safely in a pretty and
    >>well preserved body, but rather to skid in
    >>broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out,
    >>and loudly proclaiming:
    >>
    >>-- WOW!!! What a Ride!!!
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    >>* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *

    >
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  2. OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.

    Brice Yokem wrote: Just part of the campaign to destroy Christian culture.


    Sadly, the end result of the Government's policies is the destruction of families.

    I have no doubt, it will get a lot worse before it gets better.

    -Craig





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  3. Re: OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.

    Craig responds
    > Brice Yokem wrote:
    >> Just part of the campaign to destroy Christian culture.

    >
    > Sadly, the end result of the Government's policies is the
    > destruction of families.
    >
    > I have no doubt, it will get a lot worse before it gets better.
    >
    > -Craig


    Then again, if civilization's downfall is apparent, it won't get better.

    Tracy Johnson
    Measurement Specialties Inc.
    BT






    NNNN

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  4. OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.

    "Johnson, Tracy" wrote:
    Then again, if civilization's downfall is apparent, it won't get better.



    Apparently religous persercution is alive and well in the 21st century.

    If you want to read some legal opnions on the situation, I advise you to sit down and take your medication first. (that was NOT directed to Tracy personally.)

    "And it remains rather troubling that the CPS apparently had the authority to take 437 kids from their parents after launching an investigation based on an apparently fraudulent complaint of abuse involving a specific, apparently nonexistent, girl."

    "Excuse me, Judge? You issued a sweeping, house-to-house search warrant based on a highly questionable anonymous call that turned out to be phony. You refused to allow individual hearings for children, grouping them together like cattle. You accepted the testimony of an expert on "cults" who only learned about FLDS from media accounts, rather than an academic who'd studied them professionally for 18 years"

    www.volokh.com

    Child abuse in the name of protecting children.
    http://volokh.com/posts/1208964908.shtml


    I have zero faith in our "democratically" elected congress to address or even remotely resolve the situation.

    -Craig






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  5. Re: OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.


    Wow, aren't we all a morbid bunch today.

    ************************************************** ****
    Ted Johnson,PHR johnsont@wfu.edu
    Information Systems
    Wake Forest University 336-758-4374
    Winston-Salem, NC 27109 336-758-7127 FAX

    "There is no teaching to compare with example."
    -- Sir Robert Baden-Powell

    -----Original Message-----
    From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    Behalf Of Johnson, Tracy
    Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 2:52 PM
    To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: Re: OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.

    Craig responds
    > Brice Yokem wrote:
    >> Just part of the campaign to destroy Christian culture.

    >
    > Sadly, the end result of the Government's policies is the destruction
    > of families.
    >
    > I have no doubt, it will get a lot worse before it gets better.
    >
    > -Craig


    Then again, if civilization's downfall is apparent, it won't get better.

    Tracy Johnson
    Measurement Specialties Inc.
    BT






    NNNN

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
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  6. OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.

    "Johnson, Ted" wrote:
    Wow, aren't we all a morbid bunch today.


    As a father of five children it gives me no comfort to know that they can be taken at anytime, as the result of an anonymous phone call.

    When DCFS or what ever it is called in your state, is notified, you are guilty until proven inocent.

    This is not a new phenomon, there are stories all over the internet, here's one:
    http://conservablogs.com/muthstruths/2007/12/02/441/

    -Craig



    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
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  7. Re: OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.

    just think...today no 11 year old girl was hauled off to a so called church
    chapel and offered up by her mother(if she knew who her mother was - most in
    the compound didn't)for "marriage" then forced to...well you know what...
    with some 50 year old man in matrimonial beds in the church chapel (some
    chapel huh).

    John "San Angeloan"

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  8. Re: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.

    My brother-in-law, who also lives in Texas found that out the hard way.
    My nephews wife has a 12 year old girl from another guy, well this girl
    accused him of molesting her. The girl has a long history of lying, yet
    my brother-in-law automatically was "convicted", forced to leave his
    house because he had 3 kids of his own there. Took him 8 weeks and a
    large attorney bill to get the record straight. After interviewing a ton
    of people the DCFS people finally decided that he was innocent of all
    charges and that the girl needed psychological help. But guess what,
    this is on his record forever, even though he didn't do a thing wrong.
    So much for innocent until proven guilty.

    ************************************************** ****
    Ted Johnson,PHR johnsont@wfu.edu

    Information Systems
    Wake Forest University 336-758-4374
    Winston-Salem, NC 27109 336-758-7127 FAX

    "There is no teaching to compare with example."
    -- Sir Robert Baden-Powell


    ________________________________

    From: Craig Lalley [mailto:mr_lalley@yahoo.com]
    Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:20 PM
    To: Johnson, Ted; HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.




    "Johnson, Ted" wrote:


    Wow, aren't we all a morbid bunch today.



    As a father of five children it gives me no comfort to know that they
    can be taken at anytime, as the result of an anonymous phone call.

    When DCFS or what ever it is called in your state, is notified, you are
    guilty until proven inocent.

    This is not a new phenomon, there are stories all over the internet,
    here's one:
    http://conservablogs.com/muthstruths/2007/12/02/441/

    -Craig



    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  9. Re: OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.

    Having adopted 2 children, I have a very interesting view of parental
    rights/responsibilities. To become a parent, I had to fill out
    applications, have my taxes reviewed, have criminal background checks
    run, have my home inspected not once but twice per child (not because
    anything was found... once before you can receive the child and once
    after just in case you setup a sweat-shop and have them assembling
    sneakers for 19 cents/day). I had to fill out forms of what birth
    defects were acceptable to me, what nationalities and mixes of
    nationalities were acceptable. I had to write essay answers to question
    regarding would I spank a child "ever". What was my childhood like. How
    do I view religion in terms of raising a child. All the while wondering,
    "Am I answering this the way THEY want me to?"

    Now my brother-in-law on the other hand has a criminal background, has
    no idea how to educate his children, and hasn't even taught them to
    brush their teeth. He keeps breeding trying to gain the approval of his
    father, which ironically, he won't get until he starts actually
    parenting his children. And I would characterize some of what he has
    done criminally negligent.

    Although I'm rarely in favor of governmental interference in our lives,
    this so reminds me of the scene in the movie Parenthood where Keanu
    Reeves character has a moment of clarity and says, "... you need a
    license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to
    catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father."

    So is it our inalienable right to mess up the next generation if we want
    to or should someone step in? And at what point should someone step in?
    I certainly don't have any answers here.


    Paul

    -----Original Message-----
    From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    Behalf Of Craig Lalley
    Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:20 PM
    To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: [HP3000-L] OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.

    "Johnson, Ted" wrote:
    Wow, aren't we all a morbid bunch today.


    As a father of five children it gives me no comfort to know that they
    can be taken at anytime, as the result of an anonymous phone call.

    When DCFS or what ever it is called in your state, is notified, you are
    guilty until proven inocent.

    This is not a new phenomon, there are stories all over the internet,
    here's one:
    http://conservablogs.com/muthstruths/2007/12/02/441/

    -Craig



    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  10. OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.

    Paul Scott wrote: Having adopted 2 children, I have a very interesting view of parental
    rights/responsibilities. To become a parent, I had to fill out
    applications, have my taxes reviewed, have criminal background checks
    run, have my home inspected not once but twice per child (not because
    anything was found... once before you can receive the child and once
    after just in case you setup a sweat-shop and have them assembling
    sneakers for 19 cents/day). I had to fill out forms of what birth
    defects were acceptable to me, what nationalities and mixes of
    nationalities were acceptable. I had to write essay answers to question
    regarding would I spank a child "ever". What was my childhood like. How
    do I view religion in terms of raising a child. All the while wondering,
    "Am I answering this the way THEY want me to?"

    Now my brother-in-law on the other hand has a criminal background, has
    no idea how to educate his children, and hasn't even taught them to
    brush their teeth. He keeps breeding trying to gain the approval of his
    father, which ironically, he won't get until he starts actually
    parenting his children. And I would characterize some of what he has
    done criminally negligent.

    Although I'm rarely in favor of governmental interference in our lives,
    this so reminds me of the scene in the movie Parenthood where Keanu
    Reeves character has a moment of clarity and says, "... you need a
    license to buy a dog, to drive a car - hell, you even need a license to
    catch a fish. But they'll let any butt-reaming asshole be a father."

    So is it our inalienable right to mess up the next generation if we want
    to or should someone step in? And at what point should someone step in?
    I certainly don't have any answers here.



    Hi Paul,

    I don't have any answers, and I suspect there are no easy answers.

    Be thankful you don't live too close to your brother-in-law, and in the jurisdiction of the judge, She may be inclined to take your children as well as his.

    My neighbors (in Illinois) adopted a child. The told me the process cost them $37k.
    They would dearly love to adopt another child, but it is simply too expensive for them.

    So abortion is paid for out of the public funds, but adoption needs to be covered by the parents to be?

    We have friends in Oregon who adopted three boys. The oldest was 5, the youngest was 8 months. The boys have the same mother (different fathers). The mother has not changed her ways, and now it appears that my friends will be adopting a baby girl as well.

    There are no easy answers, which is why there are laws and legal processes. Those processes can be easily circumvented in divorce and child support cases, buy a simple (but false) charge of abuse. In fact it is a common occurance in divorce cases, where the accuser (read mother) is rarely if ever charged with perjury.

    I don't have any answers, and it appears the Judge doesn't either.

    -Craig





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  11. OT: A sad event for Texas and the U.S.

    John Hurt wrote: just think...today no 11 year old girl was hauled off to a so called church
    chapel and offered up by her mother(if she knew who her mother was - most in
    the compound didn't)for "marriage" then forced to...well you know what...
    with some 50 year old man in matrimonial beds in the church chapel (some
    chapel huh).



    John,

    You make a compelling argument, I agree with you.

    >> Will all 11 year old girls please take three steps to the left.


    Now, what is your explanation for taking a 6 month old nursing baby from its mother?
    How about a 1 year old that can't walk yet?
    What about the 2 year old that can't talk yet?
    And the 3 year old that can barely form a sentence? I am sure their testimony is crucial to the case.

    The point is, the Judge had a lot of reasonable options at her disposal and she chose the harshest punishment available.

    Now what were the charges again? I mean specifically for the 30 year old mother of a 4 year old and 1 year old? What where those charges again?

    The only other time I can think of that this happened in recent history was in the late 1930's and early 1940's. So what happened then wasn't wrong, just the motive behind it?

    -Craig




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