Re: OT: Which is your favorite? - Hewlett Packard

This is a discussion on Re: OT: Which is your favorite? - Hewlett Packard ; Denys, Thank you for a reply that is well-stated, polite, and thought-provoking. One of the mistakes that is most often made by non-experts who engage in the AGW debate is to confuse weather and climate. If we have an unusually ...

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Thread: Re: OT: Which is your favorite?

  1. Re: OT: Which is your favorite?

    Denys,
    Thank you for a reply that is well-stated, polite, and thought-provoking.

    One of the mistakes that is most often made by non-experts who engage in the AGW debate is to confuse weather and climate. If we have an unusually warm summer, people want to attribute it to AGW, and if we have a severe winter, others say that disproves AGW. The fact it that weather is always and has always been variable, and only long-term trends matter when talking about climate change. The .75 degree drop in global average temperature that you mentioned, if true and if it continues, would certainly refute the notion that we are in the throes of a long period of rising global temperatures.. As you point out, the warming of the planet after a cooling cycle is a long, drawn-out affair, so a one-year dip is probably not enough of a hiccupto arrive at a firm conclusion about a reversal of the trend.

    The rather facetious remarks about the thermonuclear device in the sky, andwhether that could be the source of the warming is, of course, irrelevant to the debate. The AGW proponents have never claimed otherwise. What theyclaim is that the balance between solar energy absorbed by the planet and that which is radiated back into space has been altered. Your remark that carbon dioxide is a part of nature is certainly true. I did not mean to imply that carbon dioxide is a pollutant, but I see that my choice of words seems to give that impression. The point I was trying to make is that burning fossil fuels does tend to release pollutants into the atmosphere, and that finding renewable and cleaner sources of energy is a good thing, regardless of the truth or fallacy of the AGW theories. I think thoughts along those lines are behind much of the fervor of the AGW proponents: the consequences of significant global warming are potentially disastrous, and if we wait until the theory is undisputed, it will be too late. Taking steps to reduce carbon emissions is the prudent thing to do in the absence of absolutecertainty.

    In a private email, you stated: "The bottom line is: we don't know." I wholeheartedly agree with that statement, and that was largely the point of myearlier post. I was moved to write that post by the vehemence of your denial of AGW, and your use of words like "hoax." We all have a tendency to choose sides, and then dig in our heels. I think that approach to any question is counter-productive, and I hope to avoid it. That's why I rail against the conservative/liberal labels.

    In closing, I want to thank you for adding "AGW" to the lexicon of this community. It is definitely a more accurate term for the issue.

    Regards,
    John Clogg
    __________________________________________________ _______________
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  2. Re: OT: Which is your favorite?

    Aren't TLAs a wonderful way to communicate!

    From acronyms.thefreedictionary.com:

    Acronym Definition
    AGW Access Gateway
    AGW Accident Generated Water
    AGW Actual Gross Weight
    AGW All Going Well
    AGW Allowable Gross Weight
    AGW Alt.Games.Warbirds (forum)
    AGW Anganwadi Worker (India)
    AGW Anthropogenic Global Warming
    AGW Application Gateway (telecom)
    AGW Art Gallery of Windsor (Ontario, Canada)
    AGW Atmospheric Gravity Waves
    AGW Automatic Girth Welder
    AGW Autonomous Guided Weapon

    Bob J. -- Ideal Computer Services
    http://www.icsgroup.net


    John Clogg wrote:

    >( intelligent discussion snipped for brevity )
    >
    >In closing, I want to thank you for adding "AGW" to the lexicon of this community. It is definitely a more accurate term for the issue.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >


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  3. OT: Which is your favorite?

    "Bob J." wrote: Aren't TLAs a wonderful way to communicate!

    From acronyms.thefreedictionary.com:

    Acronym Definition
    AGW Access Gateway
    AGW Accident Generated Water
    AGW Actual Gross Weight
    AGW All Going Well
    AGW Allowable Gross Weight
    AGW Alt.Games.Warbirds (forum)
    AGW Anganwadi Worker (India)
    AGW Anthropogenic Global Warming
    AGW Application Gateway (telecom)
    AGW Art Gallery of Windsor (Ontario, Canada)
    AGW Atmospheric Gravity Waves
    AGW Automatic Girth Welder
    AGW Autonomous Guided Weapon


    My personal favorite?

    Acronym Definition DICNAVAB Dictionary of Naval Abbreviations

    -Craig


    Sources=Sources | 1024

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  4. Re: OT: Which is your favorite?

    My favourite is


    PCMCIA


    People Cant Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms


    ______________________________________
    From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On Behalf Of Craig Lalley [mr_lalley@YAHOO.COM]
    Sent: Saturday, 8 March 2008 12:52 PM
    To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: [HP3000-L] OT: Which is your favorite?

    "Bob J." wrote: Aren't TLAs a wonderful way to communicate!

    From acronyms.thefreedictionary.com:

    Acronym Definition
    AGW Access Gateway
    AGW Accident Generated Water
    AGW Actual Gross Weight
    AGW All Going Well
    AGW Allowable Gross Weight
    AGW Alt.Games.Warbirds (forum)
    AGW Anganwadi Worker (India)
    AGW Anthropogenic Global Warming
    AGW Application Gateway (telecom)
    AGW Art Gallery of Windsor (Ontario, Canada)
    AGW Atmospheric Gravity Waves
    AGW Automatic Girth Welder
    AGW Autonomous Guided Weapon


    My personal favorite?

    Acronym Definition DICNAVAB Dictionary of Naval Abbreviations

    -Craig


    Sources=Sources | 1024

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  5. Re: OT: Which is your favorite?

    John,

    The big mistake that is always made by AGW-apologists is to state that
    weather and climate are not linked. This is totally false. As Science
    magazine was explaining last year, if your computer models cannot predict
    the weather for more than a few days, how can they possibly predict climate
    ten, twenty, or more years in the future. Weather (climate) is an
    exceedingly complex thing, which completely refuses to be accurately modeled
    for more than a few days.

    Further, one of the tenets of the AGW religion is that because of AGW,
    winters are milder and shorter, which of course over the last 12-14 months
    got completely blasted apart. Here is a recent article in the UK Torygraph
    that explains it quite nicely. It even talks about Soros-funded NASA
    scientist James Hansen and how he censors other researchers.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m...8/03/09/do0902
    ..xml

    I actually pray to God the massive dip in global temperature does not go any
    further or any longer, cold temperatures are bad for mankind, warmer
    temperatures are good; cold, bad, warm good.

    My remark about the thermonuclear device in the sky is anything but
    facetious. Everyone needs to understand that the Sun governs everything in
    this neck of the Milky Way. When the Sun cools down, everything cools down,
    when it warms up, everything warms up. This is not irrelevant to the debate
    and the high priests of AGW have always dismissed the Sun as a cause of
    climate change, preferring to blame (American) Man for any variation.

    Yes, we don't know, even though Algore assures us the science is settled.
    We don't know, we are still discovering and we just discovered his theory
    has been blown totally apart. Let's look elsewhere. The best estimates of
    Kyoto, after the virtual destruction of the world's economy is a reduction
    of .05 degree Celsius. Let me see, we just dropped 10 to 15 times that much
    doing nothing. I vote that we leave the economies alone and monitor the
    climate. Your attitude reminds me of the old saw: "You guys start
    programming and I will go find out what the project is all about."

    BTW, I believe the reason liberals latch on to AGW is because they like to
    be able to control everybody. If they can get people to believe that
    whatever they are doing is causing global warming, they can tell them what
    to do and that's what liberals live for, telling other people how to live
    and what to do. As a conservative, I don't give a rat's ass what you do and
    who you do it with, as long as it doesn't affect me.

    Denys

    From: John Clogg [mailto:jhclogg@hotmail.com]
    Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 12:34 PM
    To: Denys Beauchemin; hp3000-l@raven.utc.edu
    Subject: RE: [HP3000-L] OT: Which is your favorite?

    Denys,
    Thank you for a reply that is well-stated, polite, and thought-provoking.

    One of the mistakes that is most often made by non-experts who engage in the
    AGW debate is to confuse weather and climate. If we have an unusually warm
    summer, people want to attribute it to AGW, and if we have a severe winter,
    others say that disproves AGW. The fact it that weather is always and has
    always been variable, and only long-term trends matter when talking about
    climate change. The .75 degree drop in global average temperature that you
    mentioned, if true and if it continues, would certainly refute the notion
    that we are in the throes of a long period of rising global temperatures.
    As you point out, the warming of the planet after a cooling cycle is a long,
    drawn-out affair, so a one-year dip is probably not enough of a hiccup to
    arrive at a firm conclusion about a reversal of the trend.

    The rather facetious remarks about the thermonuclear device in the sky, and
    whether that could be the source of the warming is, of course, irrelevant to
    the debate. The AGW proponents have never claimed otherwise. What they
    claim is that the balance between solar energy absorbed by the planet and
    that which is radiated back into space has been altered. Your remark that
    carbon dioxide is a part of nature is certainly true. I did not mean to
    imply that carbon dioxide is a pollutant, but I see that my choice of words
    seems to give that impression. The point I was trying to make is that
    burning fossil fuels does tend to release pollutants into the atmosphere,
    and that finding renewable and cleaner sources of energy is a good thing,
    regardless of the truth or fallacy of the AGW theories. I think thoughts
    along those lines are behind much of the fervor of the AGW proponents: the
    consequences of significant global warming are potentially disastrous, and
    if we wait until the theory is undisputed, it will be too late. Taking
    steps to reduce carbon emissions is the prudent thing to do in the absence
    of absolute certainty.

    In a private email, you stated: "The bottom line is: we don't know." I
    wholeheartedly agree with that statement, and that was largely the point of
    my earlier post. I was moved to write that post by the vehemence of your
    denial of AGW, and your use of words like "hoax." We all have a tendency to
    choose sides, and then dig in our heels. I think that approach to any
    question is counter-productive, and I hope to avoid it. That's why I rail
    against the conservative/liberal labels.

    In closing, I want to thank you for adding "AGW" to the lexicon of this
    community. It is definitely a more accurate term for the issue.

    Regards,
    John Clogg


    Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your HotmailR-get your
    "fix". Check it out.

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  6. OT: Caesar whizzed in my beer

    In message <000001c88279$c432b3d0$4c981b70$@net>, Denys Beauchemin
    writes

    > Here is a recent article in the UK Torygraph
    >that explains it quite nicely. It even talks about Soros-funded NASA
    >scientist James Hansen and how he censors other researchers.
    >
    >http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m...8/03/09/do0902
    >.xml


    Well, it looks like the black helicopter and tinfoil brigade got there
    before us, Denys :-(

    The only reference to Hansen is now in a comment, and it doesn't talk
    about censorship at all.

    In fact, the main article now seems to be about how it could be that
    Caesar whizzed in my beer, which was very instructive.
    --
    Roy Brown 'Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be
    Kelmscott Ltd useful, or believe to be beautiful' William Morris

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  7. Re: OT: Caesar whizzed in my beer

    You really have a fixation with paleontological urination in your fermented
    beverages by historical figures, don't you?

    Did you also see the next editorial about how irrelevant the UK government
    has become? I'll bet that was a pisser also.

    Alas you are right this story is not the one that recounts James Hansen's
    censorship role. My bad.


    Denys

    -----Original Message-----
    From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On Behalf
    Of Roy Brown
    Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 6:37 AM
    To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: [HP3000-L] OT: Caesar whizzed in my beer

    In message <000001c88279$c432b3d0$4c981b70$@net>, Denys Beauchemin
    writes

    > Here is a recent article in the UK Torygraph
    >that explains it quite nicely. It even talks about Soros-funded NASA
    >scientist James Hansen and how he censors other researchers.
    >
    >http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m...08/03/09/do090

    2
    >.xml


    Well, it looks like the black helicopter and tinfoil brigade got there
    before us, Denys :-(

    The only reference to Hansen is now in a comment, and it doesn't talk
    about censorship at all.

    In fact, the main article now seems to be about how it could be that
    Caesar whizzed in my beer, which was very instructive.
    --
    Roy Brown 'Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be
    Kelmscott Ltd useful, or believe to be beautiful' William Morris

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  8. Re: OT: Which is your favorite?

    Come on, Denys, don't try to win an argument by putting words in my mouth. I didn't say climate and weather aren't linked, I said they aren't the same thing. One or two unusually hot summers do not mean we have global warming, and one or two unusually cold winters do not mean we don't. Only the uninformed (or those with political agendas) say otherwise. I agree with you about the difficulty of modeling climate and/or weather. Also remember that weather, at least weather as we perceive it, tends to be a localized thing. If it is unusually cold/hot/wet/dry in one region, it is usually warm/cold/dry/wet somewhere else.

    Regarding the sun, and the fact that "the sun governs everything in this neck of the Milky Way": As I said before, no one claims otherwise. Regarding my "attitude": I was not expressing my own opinion; I was explaining the position of the AGW proponents.

    I am surprised by your desire to keep arguing about this, when it seems we agree about most of these points. Perhaps you need to read my posts a bit more carefully. I am also struck by the inconsistency of your position. You keep saying we don't know whether AGW is true, but you also insist that those who say it is true are absolutely wrong, and that the theory has been"blown totally apart." Could it be that you are a little less open-mindedon this question than you claim to be? You offered an opinion about why "liberals" latch on to AGW (Do you have to be liberal to believe AGW theory?Where do we get the membership card?) Let me offer a suggestion on why "conservatives" are so adamant in their opposition: because they think it is a liberal/conservative question, and they wouldn't dare agree with a liberal.

    John


    From: denysb@comcast.netTo: jhclogg@hotmail.com; hp3000-l@raven.utc.eduSubject: RE: [HP3000-L] OT: Which is your favorite?Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 01:41:13 -0500

    John,
    The big mistake that is always made by AGW-apologists is to state that weather and climate are not linked. This is totally false. As Science magazine was explaining last year, if your computer models cannot predict the weather for more than a few days, how can they possibly predict climate ten, twenty, or more years in the future. Weather (climate) is an exceedingly complex thing, which completely refuses to be accurately modeled for more thana few days.

    Further, one of the tenets of the AGW religion is that because of AGW, winters are milder and shorter, which of course over the last 12-14 months got completely blasted apart. Here is a recent article in the UK Torygraph that explains it quite nicely. It even talks about Soros-funded NASA scientist James Hansen and how he censors other researchers.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../09/do0902.xml
    I actually pray to God the massive dip in global temperature does not go any further or any longer, cold temperatures are bad for mankind, warmer temperatures are good; cold, bad, warm good.
    My remark about the thermonuclear device in the sky is anything but facetious. Everyone needs to understand that the Sun governs everything in this neck of the Milky Way. When the Sun cools down, everything cools down, whenit warms up, everything warms up. This is not irrelevant to the debate and the high priests of AGW have always dismissed the Sun as a cause of climate change, preferring to blame (American) Man for any variation.
    Yes, we don’t know, even though Algore assures us the science is settled.We don’t know, we are still discovering and we just discovered his theory has been blown totally apart. Let’s look elsewhere. The best estimates of Kyoto, after the virtual destruction of the world’s economy is a reduction of .05 degree Celsius. Let me see, we just dropped 10 to 15 times that much doing nothing. I vote that we leave the economies alone and monitor the climate. Your attitude reminds me of the old saw: “You guys start programming and I will go find out what the project is all about.”
    BTW, I believe the reason liberals latch on to AGW is because they like to be able to control everybody. If they can get people to believe that whatever they are doing is causing global warming, they can tell them what to doand that’s what liberals live for, telling other people how to live and what to do. As a conservative, I don’t give a rat’s ass what you do and who you do it with, as long as it doesn’t affect me.
    Denys
    __________________________________________________ _______________
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  9. Re: OT: Which is your favorite?

    When I say "we don't know" I am talking about society in general. Algore
    and his ilk have done a great job brainwashing a lot of people. For
    example, most Europeans firmly believe in AGW, and that it is caused by
    Americans. They believe that signing Kyoto absolves them of everything.



    The AGW crowd has also made a valiant attempt at marginalizing anybody who
    doubts AGW and they either call them GW deniers or in the pocket of Big
    something. They also refuse to debate anyone; the science is settled.



    The fact global average temperatures have dropped between .6 to .75 degree
    Celsius in the last year completely debunks the AGW, but the adherents will
    latch on for a while longer.



    I no longer have any doubts the whole issue is bunk and I do hope that John
    Coleman actually gets Algore sued. BTW, you will have noticed that he is
    extremely quiet these last few months. The problem is the AGW crowd has
    already caused a lot of problems and these problems will plague us for a
    while. You will notice that food prices have increased quite a bit
    recently; that happened because we are burning our food to make inefficient
    ethanol fuel. The price of gasoline is also very high and even thought
    demand has dropped, the price has not yet followed. If we actually have
    entered a cooling period in Earth's history, the first thing that will be
    affected is agriculture. Now that people and animals compete with internal
    combustion engines for fuel, the price of food will rise even more.



    You see one of the benefits of global warming is that agricultural yields
    are higher because of longer growing seasons and no damaging frosts.



    Even if we decide to stop burning food in IC engines, we will not be able to
    replace the ethanol from crops in time, as we have not been able to drill
    for oil or refine more gasoline and we have not been able to build a nuclear
    power plant in 20+ years. It would take a few years to get those things on
    line and I can guarantee you the eco-Nazis will fight every goosestep of the
    way, before they resort to outright sabotage and terrorism.



    Denys




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  10. OT: I call Godwin

    In message <000001c883ec$173ad030$45b07090$@net>, Denys Beauchemin
    writes

    >It would take a few years to get those things on
    >line and I can guarantee you the eco-Nazis will fight every goosestep of the
    >way, before they resort to outright sabotage and terrorism.


    I call Godwin.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    "For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet
    discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is
    finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost"
    whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently
    referred to as Godwin's Law."

    This thread is finished; it's over; you're done; you've lost.

    --
    Roy Brown 'Have nothing in your houses that you do not know to be
    Kelmscott Ltd useful, or believe to be beautiful' William Morris

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