Notebook HD - Hewlett Packard

This is a discussion on Notebook HD - Hewlett Packard ; Ben Myers wrote: > And, FWIW, Wikipedia talks about the Kitty Hawk as a disKKKKKKK drive... Ben > Myers Yes, by *that* time it had been "disk" already for a *long* time. You youngsters! :-) Frank "Four decades and counting." ...

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Thread: Notebook HD

  1. Re: Notebook HD

    Ben Myers wrote:
    > And, FWIW, Wikipedia talks about the Kitty Hawk as a disKKKKKKK drive... Ben
    > Myers


    Yes, by *that* time it had been "disk" already for a *long* time.

    You youngsters! :-)

    Frank "Four decades and counting." Slootweg

    > On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:38:28 +0000 (UTC), Rick Jones wrote:
    >
    > >> > Does HP actually make hard drives?

    > >
    > >> Not any more, and they never made notebook drives.

    > >
    > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Kitty_Hawk_microdrive
    > >
    > >rick jones


  2. Re: Notebook HD

    Rick Jones wrote:
    > Frank Slootweg wrote:
    > > Yes, there were some later models. I realized that when I composed
    > > my second response about the 7935. The 7935 indeed had a removable
    > > disc pack and the later ones which I remember hadn't. The later ones
    > > were rackmount models, i.e. more narrow and lower height but deeper
    > > than the 7935. But like you, my brain can't come up with a product
    > > number. hate it when that happens.

    >
    > There was the 7939 (IIRC) which was an 8" Winchester called the
    > "Eagle" that came in either HP-IB or SE SCSI flavors. Its packing
    > materials included the legendary "HP Attitude Adjustor" PN
    > 19511-80014. A 19" long piece of 2x2


    It's probably the 7937 which Frank McConnell mentioned. That model
    number rings a bell. Now if we only had a picture of it!

    And indeed the "HP Attitude Adjustor", and I remember something about
    it being rather difficult to slide it out, and that it *had* to be
    (head) locked for shipment, even if 'shipment' was moving it around in a
    building or even in the same 'room'.

  3. Re: Notebook HD

    You call me a youngster? The first computer I used was a Burroughs 220, which
    I got to program in Algol in a college numerical analysis course. The computer
    had HUGE tape drives, 2 1/4" wide, IIRC, and a console that would have been
    perfect for a sci fi movie. Plenty of flashing lights and console switches to
    enter in data and commands. Of course, we punched out the programs ourselves on
    "IBM" cards. Any idea how long ago that was? ... Ben Myers

    On 13 Feb 2008 16:08:10 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

    >Ben Myers wrote:
    >> And, FWIW, Wikipedia talks about the Kitty Hawk as a disKKKKKKK drive... Ben
    >> Myers

    >
    > Yes, by *that* time it had been "disk" already for a *long* time.
    >
    > You youngsters! :-)
    >
    >Frank "Four decades and counting." Slootweg
    >
    >> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:38:28 +0000 (UTC), Rick Jones wrote:
    >>
    >> >> > Does HP actually make hard drives?
    >> >
    >> >> Not any more, and they never made notebook drives.
    >> >
    >> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Kitty_Hawk_microdrive
    >> >
    >> >rick jones


  4. Re: Notebook HD

    Ben Myers wrote:
    > You call me a youngster?


    That's why I added a smiley!

    > The first computer I used was a Burroughs
    > 220, which I got to program in Algol in a college numerical analysis
    > course. The computer had HUGE tape drives, 2 1/4" wide, IIRC, and a
    > console that would have been perfect for a sci fi movie. Plenty of
    > flashing lights and console switches to enter in data and commands.
    > Of course, we punched out the programs ourselves on "IBM" cards. Any
    > idea how long ago that was?


    About 48 years?

    Anyway, if you're an old-timer, I'm even more surprised that you're
    not aware of the old use of "disc" instead of "disk".

    And "Algol" and (magnetic) "tape drives"? What's up with all that
    new-fangled stuff? What's wrong with assembler (or even machine code)
    and *paper* tape? :-)

    > ... Ben Myers
    >
    > On 13 Feb 2008 16:08:10 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
    >
    > >Ben Myers wrote:
    > >> And, FWIW, Wikipedia talks about the Kitty Hawk as a disKKKKKKK
    > >> drive... Ben Myers

    > >
    > > Yes, by *that* time it had been "disk" already for a *long* time.
    > >
    > > You youngsters! :-)
    > >
    > >Frank "Four decades and counting." Slootweg
    > >
    > >> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:38:28 +0000 (UTC), Rick Jones wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >> > Does HP actually make hard drives?
    > >> >
    > >> >> Not any more, and they never made notebook drives.
    > >> >
    > >> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Kitty_Hawk_microdrive
    > >> >
    > >> >rick jones


  5. Re: Notebook HD

    I ignored the smiley. I am well aware of disc. I have a number of them in my
    back. But I still adhere to the thoroughly modern convention of "disk".

    The Burroughs 220 was modern for its day. It had a paper tape reader, but we
    students used IBM cards. I later programmed a GE 225 computer in assembly
    language, wrote software to process paper tape data, wrote a really basic and
    fundamental operating system, and messed around with the insides of compilers.

    You're off by a year or two. I began college in the fall of 1961. Only 47
    years ago. But you're close, anyway... Ben

    On 13 Feb 2008 20:56:19 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

    >Ben Myers wrote:
    >> You call me a youngster?

    >
    > That's why I added a smiley!
    >
    >> The first computer I used was a Burroughs
    >> 220, which I got to program in Algol in a college numerical analysis
    >> course. The computer had HUGE tape drives, 2 1/4" wide, IIRC, and a
    >> console that would have been perfect for a sci fi movie. Plenty of
    >> flashing lights and console switches to enter in data and commands.
    >> Of course, we punched out the programs ourselves on "IBM" cards. Any
    >> idea how long ago that was?

    >
    > About 48 years?
    >
    > Anyway, if you're an old-timer, I'm even more surprised that you're
    >not aware of the old use of "disc" instead of "disk".
    >
    > And "Algol" and (magnetic) "tape drives"? What's up with all that
    >new-fangled stuff? What's wrong with assembler (or even machine code)
    >and *paper* tape? :-)
    >
    >> ... Ben Myers
    >>
    >> On 13 Feb 2008 16:08:10 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
    >>
    >> >Ben Myers wrote:
    >> >> And, FWIW, Wikipedia talks about the Kitty Hawk as a disKKKKKKK
    >> >> drive... Ben Myers
    >> >
    >> > Yes, by *that* time it had been "disk" already for a *long* time.
    >> >
    >> > You youngsters! :-)
    >> >
    >> >Frank "Four decades and counting." Slootweg
    >> >
    >> >> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:38:28 +0000 (UTC), Rick Jones wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> >> > Does HP actually make hard drives?
    >> >> >
    >> >> >> Not any more, and they never made notebook drives.
    >> >> >
    >> >> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Kitty_Hawk_microdrive
    >> >> >
    >> >> >rick jones


  6. Re: Notebook HD

    On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:49:04 -0500, Ben Myers wrote:

    >Of course, one is likely to pay a LARGE premium over street price buying a
    >notebook hard drive from HP, with a genuine HP sticker on it. If one does not
    >have the time, the background or the motivation to do ones homework, then buying
    >"genuine" products from HP or any other name brand company.
    >
    >HP has no motivation whatsoever to find out which generic drives work in their
    >notebooks. Their hardware business is selling whole computers, printers, and
    >network equipment. Selling parts is a tiny sideline, hence the large markup on
    >any parts bought direct from HP. I am not being critical in saying this. It
    >is simply reality.
    >
    >But back to the original posting, it is at least a minor misrepresentation on
    >the part of HP to that that only their drives should be used in their notebook
    >computers. Or is it just misleading? Maybe both? ... Ben Myers


    http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting

    >On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 19:19:14 +0100, Benjamin Gawert wrote:
    >
    >>* swalker:
    >>
    >>> HP claims that only "their" hard drives should be used in my notebook.
    >>> (dv9700t).

    >>
    >>Right, since these are the only disks for which HP can gurantee that
    >>they work in your notebook. That doesn't mean other disks won't work, it
    >>just means that HP doesn't know for sure which generic drives work (in
    >>theory all of them with a suitable size and interface should work, but
    >>sometimes two devices are just incompatible with each other) and if you
    >>use generic disks and experience problems you're on your own.
    >>
    >>> Does HP actually make hard drives?

    >>
    >>Not any more, and they never made notebook drives. However, HP buys OEM
    >>disks from different vendors and puts their sticker (and sometimes also
    >>their own firmware) on them.
    >>
    >>Benjamin


    Barry
    =====
    Home page
    http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og

  7. Re: Notebook HD

    On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:49:04 -0500, Ben Myers
    wrote:

    Interesting discussion.

    Why would one generic drive work in a computer and another one not?


    >Of course, one is likely to pay a LARGE premium over street price buying a
    >notebook hard drive from HP, with a genuine HP sticker on it. If one does not
    >have the time, the background or the motivation to do ones homework, then buying
    >"genuine" products from HP or any other name brand company.
    >
    >HP has no motivation whatsoever to find out which generic drives work in their
    >notebooks. Their hardware business is selling whole computers, printers, and
    >network equipment. Selling parts is a tiny sideline, hence the large markup on
    >any parts bought direct from HP. I am not being critical in saying this. It
    >is simply reality.
    >
    >But back to the original posting, it is at least a minor misrepresentation on
    >the part of HP to that that only their drives should be used in their notebook
    >computers. Or is it just misleading? Maybe both? ... Ben Myers
    >
    >On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 19:19:14 +0100, Benjamin Gawert wrote:
    >
    >>* swalker:
    >>
    >>> HP claims that only "their" hard drives should be used in my notebook.
    >>> (dv9700t).

    >>
    >>Right, since these are the only disks for which HP can gurantee that
    >>they work in your notebook. That doesn't mean other disks won't work, it
    >>just means that HP doesn't know for sure which generic drives work (in
    >>theory all of them with a suitable size and interface should work, but
    >>sometimes two devices are just incompatible with each other) and if you
    >>use generic disks and experience problems you're on your own.
    >>
    >>> Does HP actually make hard drives?

    >>
    >>Not any more, and they never made notebook drives. However, HP buys OEM
    >>disks from different vendors and puts their sticker (and sometimes also
    >>their own firmware) on them.
    >>
    >>Benjamin


  8. Re: Notebook HD

    In the most general case, a generic drive will work in any compatible computer.
    The major exception would older computers which have BIOS limitations that
    either prevented installation of the drive at all or limited the useable
    capacity.

    Yours is a newer laptop, so forget about BIOS incompatibilities.

    Finally, some models of laptops require a drive tray and/or an adapter that fits
    over the drive's own connectors and to plug into the motherboard. If you decide
    to get your own drive, remove the drive presently inside the computer to see
    what sort of tray/connector/etc mechanism is used. Odds are you can buy it
    inexpensively on eBay or possibly even from HP.

    I would still dismiss HP's statement as a whole bunch of kerfuffle, intended to
    somwhow steer you to buy the very expensive "genuine" product. This is yet
    another instance of the "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt" marketing tactic, once
    made famous by IBM, and obviously still much used. I have used all manner of
    good quality 2.5" drives as replacements in all major brands of notebook
    computers and never once encountered an incompatibility... Ben Myers

    On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:55:03 -0600, swalker wrote:

    >On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:49:04 -0500, Ben Myers
    > wrote:
    >
    >Interesting discussion.
    >
    >Why would one generic drive work in a computer and another one not?
    >
    >
    >>Of course, one is likely to pay a LARGE premium over street price buying a
    >>notebook hard drive from HP, with a genuine HP sticker on it. If one does not
    >>have the time, the background or the motivation to do ones homework, then buying
    >>"genuine" products from HP or any other name brand company.
    >>
    >>HP has no motivation whatsoever to find out which generic drives work in their
    >>notebooks. Their hardware business is selling whole computers, printers, and
    >>network equipment. Selling parts is a tiny sideline, hence the large markup on
    >>any parts bought direct from HP. I am not being critical in saying this. It
    >>is simply reality.
    >>
    >>But back to the original posting, it is at least a minor misrepresentation on
    >>the part of HP to that that only their drives should be used in their notebook
    >>computers. Or is it just misleading? Maybe both? ... Ben Myers
    >>
    >>On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 19:19:14 +0100, Benjamin Gawert wrote:
    >>
    >>>* swalker:
    >>>
    >>>> HP claims that only "their" hard drives should be used in my notebook.
    >>>> (dv9700t).
    >>>
    >>>Right, since these are the only disks for which HP can gurantee that
    >>>they work in your notebook. That doesn't mean other disks won't work, it
    >>>just means that HP doesn't know for sure which generic drives work (in
    >>>theory all of them with a suitable size and interface should work, but
    >>>sometimes two devices are just incompatible with each other) and if you
    >>>use generic disks and experience problems you're on your own.
    >>>
    >>>> Does HP actually make hard drives?
    >>>
    >>>Not any more, and they never made notebook drives. However, HP buys OEM
    >>>disks from different vendors and puts their sticker (and sometimes also
    >>>their own firmware) on them.
    >>>
    >>>Benjamin


  9. Re: Notebook HD

    * swalker:

    > Interesting discussion.
    >
    > Why would one generic drive work in a computer and another one not?


    Because even when manufacturers basically use the same drives as OEM
    that are sold generically, there still remains a chance for
    incompatibilities. These cases of incompatibilities, even when being
    rare, *do* exist. The reason for most problems is the varying firmware
    level in generic drives. While the HP sold drives come with firmware
    that has been tested and certified to be compatible with your notebook,
    generic drives don't. Sometimes drive firmware is just incompatible with
    the firmware of your disk controller, or with a certain operating mode
    or anything like that. Results can vary from "just" an abysmal slow
    performance to silent data corruption up to generic incompatibility
    (combination of notebook and drive doesn't work). As a recent example,
    some Samsung 250GB notebook drive was just painfully slow and randomly
    refused operation with several notebooks (i.e. the Macbook series). This
    was a firmware problem which in production later has been fixed.

    So no, such statements are not FUD. It's understandable that HP can't
    gurantee what generic drives work in your notebook and not since the
    corresponding variables (like drive firmware) are out of HPs control. If
    they had told their customer "any generic drive works fine" and the
    customer runs into problems like the ones with the above mentioned
    Samsung drive, he just would blame HP for giving a false advice. So
    basically their advice is correct, because drives from HP are guranteed
    to work in your notebook. With generic drives it might work (which it
    does in most cases but still not in all!) or might not, the risk is up
    to you.

    Benjamin

  10. Re: Notebook HD

    swalker wrote:

    > On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:49:04 -0500, Ben Myers
    > wrote:
    >
    > Interesting discussion.
    >
    > Why would one generic drive work in a computer and another one not?
    >
    >


    Possible reasons:

    Different manufactures have slightly different implementations of the
    command set. The notebook may use some commands or settings that differ.

    Different drives draw more power than others. This can lead to battery life
    issues. There can also be some subtle problems if startup currents are too
    high in the drive.

    Different models of 2.5" drives have different thicknesses.

    Some drives are SATA, some are PATA, these cannot be interchanged.


    >>Of course, one is likely to pay a LARGE premium over street price buying a
    >>notebook hard drive from HP, with a genuine HP sticker on it. If one
    >>does not have the time, the background or the motivation to do ones
    >>homework, then buying "genuine" products from HP or any other name brand
    >>company.
    >>
    >>HP has no motivation whatsoever to find out which generic drives work in
    >>their
    >>notebooks. Their hardware business is selling whole computers, printers,
    >>and
    >>network equipment. Selling parts is a tiny sideline, hence the large
    >>markup on
    >>any parts bought direct from HP. I am not being critical in saying this.
    >> It is simply reality.
    >>


    But slightly misleading. Rather than a large markup, the costs to provide
    the part is much higher due to the low volumes. Operating overhead is much
    higher. This is what drives the price up.


    >>But back to the original posting, it is at least a minor misrepresentation
    >>on the part of HP to that that only their drives should be used in their
    >>notebook
    >>computers. Or is it just misleading? Maybe both? ... Ben Myers
    >>
    >>On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 19:19:14 +0100, Benjamin Gawert
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>>* swalker:
    >>>
    >>>> HP claims that only "their" hard drives should be used in my notebook.
    >>>> (dv9700t).
    >>>
    >>>Right, since these are the only disks for which HP can gurantee that
    >>>they work in your notebook. That doesn't mean other disks won't work, it
    >>>just means that HP doesn't know for sure which generic drives work (in
    >>>theory all of them with a suitable size and interface should work, but
    >>>sometimes two devices are just incompatible with each other) and if you
    >>>use generic disks and experience problems you're on your own.
    >>>
    >>>> Does HP actually make hard drives?


    As posted earlier they made 14" drives, 10" drives, 5.35" drives and 1.8"
    drives. They also sold 8" drives partially assembled by HP.

    >>>
    >>>Not any more, and they never made notebook drives. However, HP buys OEM
    >>>disks from different vendors and puts their sticker (and sometimes also
    >>>their own firmware) on them.
    >>>
    >>>Benjamin



  11. Re: Notebook HD

    * craigm:

    > Possible reasons:
    >
    > Different manufactures have slightly different implementations of the
    > command set. The notebook may use some commands or settings that differ.


    Nope. The ATA command set ist standardized. There are no "slightly
    different implementations".

    Benjamin

  12. Re: Notebook HD

    Yours is the same FUD argument used for years by HP, IBM, DEC, and heaven knows
    how many other companies (Wang, Prime, Control Data, Honeywell, GE, Data
    General, etc), most of which went bankrupt, got bought out, or closed down when
    it became clear that FUD was a pile of horse manure. The operative word here is
    "rare". In this age of HIGHLY commoditized products, I would say that the odds
    are 1 in 100 or less of such an incompatibility between an HP notebook and a
    2.5" SATA drive. Anybody want to bet??? ... Ben Myers

    On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:37:01 +0100, Benjamin Gawert wrote:

    >* swalker:
    >
    >> Interesting discussion.
    >>
    >> Why would one generic drive work in a computer and another one not?

    >
    >Because even when manufacturers basically use the same drives as OEM
    >that are sold generically, there still remains a chance for
    >incompatibilities. These cases of incompatibilities, even when being
    >rare, *do* exist. The reason for most problems is the varying firmware
    >level in generic drives. While the HP sold drives come with firmware
    >that has been tested and certified to be compatible with your notebook,
    >generic drives don't. Sometimes drive firmware is just incompatible with
    > the firmware of your disk controller, or with a certain operating mode
    >or anything like that. Results can vary from "just" an abysmal slow
    >performance to silent data corruption up to generic incompatibility
    >(combination of notebook and drive doesn't work). As a recent example,
    >some Samsung 250GB notebook drive was just painfully slow and randomly
    >refused operation with several notebooks (i.e. the Macbook series). This
    >was a firmware problem which in production later has been fixed.
    >
    >So no, such statements are not FUD. It's understandable that HP can't
    >gurantee what generic drives work in your notebook and not since the
    >corresponding variables (like drive firmware) are out of HPs control. If
    >they had told their customer "any generic drive works fine" and the
    >customer runs into problems like the ones with the above mentioned
    >Samsung drive, he just would blame HP for giving a false advice. So
    >basically their advice is correct, because drives from HP are guranteed
    >to work in your notebook. With generic drives it might work (which it
    >does in most cases but still not in all!) or might not, the risk is up
    >to you.
    >
    >Benjamin


  13. Re: Notebook HD

    That's the theory. In practice, there are some minor variations, especially in
    the interpretation of SMART which is subsumed in the ATA command set.

    .... Ben Myers

    On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:23:26 +0100, Benjamin Gawert wrote:

    >* craigm:
    >
    >> Possible reasons:
    >>
    >> Different manufactures have slightly different implementations of the
    >> command set. The notebook may use some commands or settings that differ.

    >
    >Nope. The ATA command set ist standardized. There are no "slightly
    >different implementations".
    >
    >Benjamin


  14. Re: Notebook HD

    * Ben Myers:

    [repaired broken posting]

    >>> Possible reasons:
    >>>
    >>> Different manufactures have slightly different implementations of
    >>> the command set. The notebook may use some commands or settings
    >>> that differ.

    >>
    >> Nope. The ATA command set ist standardized. There are no "slightly
    >> different implementations".


    > That's the theory.


    No, it's not.

    > In practice, there are some minor variations,
    > especially in the interpretation of SMART which is subsumed in the
    > ATA command set.


    S.M.A.R.T. isn't part of the ATA spec. It was part of the preliminary
    version of ATA-3 but has been removed in the final version. Most disk
    manufacturers are using the definition of the preliminary ATA-3 version,
    though.

    There is no such thing as "slightly different implementation of the
    command set", period. And it should be very obvious why.

    Benjamin

    --
    A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
    Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
    A: Top-posting.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

  15. Re: Notebook HD

    * Ben Myers:

    > Yours is the same FUD argument used for years by HP, IBM, DEC, and heaven knows
    > how many other companies (Wang, Prime, Control Data, Honeywell, GE, Data
    > General, etc), most of which went bankrupt, got bought out, or closed down when
    > it became clear that FUD was a pile of horse manure. The operative word here is
    > "rare". In this age of HIGHLY commoditized products, I would say that the odds
    > are 1 in 100 or less of such an incompatibility between an HP notebook and a
    > 2.5" SATA drive.


    Probably less than 1%. But it doesn't matter if the chance of
    experiencing incompatibilities is 1:10 or 1:1000000^9, even if the
    chance is less than 1%, the fact that the probability of running into a
    compatibility issue is not zero shows that your "FUD" argument is just
    nonsense.

    Of couse you call it "FUD", other people probably call it cautious
    (which isn't surprising especially in the Country of Unlimited Lawsuits
    for the most stupiest things ever). If they say "you can use generic
    disks" and the user runs into problems (which as you also admit *is*
    possible), he'll blame HP (which in the best case ends up in a fed-up
    customer and in the worst case ends up in a lawsuit and bad press). But
    if HP says "you should use HP drives" then are also blaming them because
    HP didn't tell them that a generic drive also might work and they can't
    figure the possible alternatives out for themselves. So what do you
    expect them to tell the customer?

    Benjamin

    --
    A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
    Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
    A: Top-posting.
    Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

  16. Re: Notebook HD

    Ben Myers wrote:
    > And, FWIW, Wikipedia talks about the Kitty Hawk as a disKKKKKKK
    > drive... Ben Myers


    That's what happens when you let kids run a website

    rick jones

    --
    Process shall set you free from the need for rational thought.
    these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway...
    feel free to post, OR email to rick.jones2 in hp.com but NOT BOTH...

  17. Re: Notebook HD

    Well, then I guess I've confused SMART and ATA. SMART DOES have its different
    implementations... Ben Myers

    On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:45:28 +0100, Benjamin Gawert wrote:

    >* Ben Myers:
    >
    >[repaired broken posting]
    >
    >>>> Possible reasons:
    >>>>
    >>>> Different manufactures have slightly different implementations of
    >>>> the command set. The notebook may use some commands or settings
    >>>> that differ.
    >>>
    >>> Nope. The ATA command set ist standardized. There are no "slightly
    >>> different implementations".

    >
    >> That's the theory.

    >
    >No, it's not.
    >
    >> In practice, there are some minor variations,
    >> especially in the interpretation of SMART which is subsumed in the
    >> ATA command set.

    >
    >S.M.A.R.T. isn't part of the ATA spec. It was part of the preliminary
    >version of ATA-3 but has been removed in the final version. Most disk
    >manufacturers are using the definition of the preliminary ATA-3 version,
    >though.
    >
    >There is no such thing as "slightly different implementation of the
    >command set", period. And it should be very obvious why.
    >
    >Benjamin


  18. Re: Notebook HD

    On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:51:45 -0500, Ben Myers wrote:

    >I ignored the smiley. I am well aware of disc. I have a number of them in my
    >back. But I still adhere to the thoroughly modern convention of "disk".
    >
    >The Burroughs 220 was modern for its day. It had a paper tape reader, but we
    >students used IBM cards. I later programmed a GE 225 computer in assembly
    >language, wrote software to process paper tape data, wrote a really basic and
    >fundamental operating system, and messed around with the insides of compilers.
    >
    >You're off by a year or two. I began college in the fall of 1961. Only 47
    >years ago. But you're close, anyway... Ben


    http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting

    >On 13 Feb 2008 20:56:19 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
    >
    >>Ben Myers wrote:
    >>> You call me a youngster?

    >>
    >> That's why I added a smiley!
    >>
    >>> The first computer I used was a Burroughs
    >>> 220, which I got to program in Algol in a college numerical analysis
    >>> course. The computer had HUGE tape drives, 2 1/4" wide, IIRC, and a
    >>> console that would have been perfect for a sci fi movie. Plenty of
    >>> flashing lights and console switches to enter in data and commands.
    >>> Of course, we punched out the programs ourselves on "IBM" cards. Any
    >>> idea how long ago that was?

    >>
    >> About 48 years?
    >>
    >> Anyway, if you're an old-timer, I'm even more surprised that you're
    >>not aware of the old use of "disc" instead of "disk".
    >>
    >> And "Algol" and (magnetic) "tape drives"? What's up with all that
    >>new-fangled stuff? What's wrong with assembler (or even machine code)
    >>and *paper* tape? :-)
    >>
    >>> ... Ben Myers
    >>>
    >>> On 13 Feb 2008 16:08:10 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
    >>>
    >>> >Ben Myers wrote:
    >>> >> And, FWIW, Wikipedia talks about the Kitty Hawk as a disKKKKKKK
    >>> >> drive... Ben Myers
    >>> >
    >>> > Yes, by *that* time it had been "disk" already for a *long* time.
    >>> >
    >>> > You youngsters! :-)
    >>> >
    >>> >Frank "Four decades and counting." Slootweg
    >>> >
    >>> >> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:38:28 +0000 (UTC), Rick Jones wrote:
    >>> >>
    >>> >> >> > Does HP actually make hard drives?
    >>> >> >
    >>> >> >> Not any more, and they never made notebook drives.
    >>> >> >
    >>> >> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Kitty_Hawk_microdrive
    >>> >> >
    >>> >> >rick jones


    Barry
    =====
    Home page
    http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og

  19. Re: Notebook HD

    On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:12:31 -0500, Ben Myers wrote:

    >In the most general case, a generic drive will work in any compatible computer.
    >The major exception would older computers which have BIOS limitations that
    >either prevented installation of the drive at all or limited the useable
    >capacity.
    >
    >Yours is a newer laptop, so forget about BIOS incompatibilities.
    >
    >Finally, some models of laptops require a drive tray and/or an adapter that fits
    >over the drive's own connectors and to plug into the motherboard. If you decide
    >to get your own drive, remove the drive presently inside the computer to see
    >what sort of tray/connector/etc mechanism is used. Odds are you can buy it
    >inexpensively on eBay or possibly even from HP.
    >
    >I would still dismiss HP's statement as a whole bunch of kerfuffle, intended to
    >somwhow steer you to buy the very expensive "genuine" product. This is yet
    >another instance of the "Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt" marketing tactic, once
    >made famous by IBM, and obviously still much used. I have used all manner of
    >good quality 2.5" drives as replacements in all major brands of notebook
    >computers and never once encountered an incompatibility... Ben Myers


    http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting

    >On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:55:03 -0600, swalker wrote:
    >
    >>On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:49:04 -0500, Ben Myers
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>Interesting discussion.
    >>
    >>Why would one generic drive work in a computer and another one not?
    >>
    >>
    >>>Of course, one is likely to pay a LARGE premium over street price buying a
    >>>notebook hard drive from HP, with a genuine HP sticker on it. If one does not
    >>>have the time, the background or the motivation to do ones homework, then buying
    >>>"genuine" products from HP or any other name brand company.
    >>>
    >>>HP has no motivation whatsoever to find out which generic drives work in their
    >>>notebooks. Their hardware business is selling whole computers, printers, and
    >>>network equipment. Selling parts is a tiny sideline, hence the large markup on
    >>>any parts bought direct from HP. I am not being critical in saying this. It
    >>>is simply reality.
    >>>
    >>>But back to the original posting, it is at least a minor misrepresentation on
    >>>the part of HP to that that only their drives should be used in their notebook
    >>>computers. Or is it just misleading? Maybe both? ... Ben Myers
    >>>
    >>>On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 19:19:14 +0100, Benjamin Gawert wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>* swalker:
    >>>>
    >>>>> HP claims that only "their" hard drives should be used in my notebook.
    >>>>> (dv9700t).
    >>>>
    >>>>Right, since these are the only disks for which HP can gurantee that
    >>>>they work in your notebook. That doesn't mean other disks won't work, it
    >>>>just means that HP doesn't know for sure which generic drives work (in
    >>>>theory all of them with a suitable size and interface should work, but
    >>>>sometimes two devices are just incompatible with each other) and if you
    >>>>use generic disks and experience problems you're on your own.
    >>>>
    >>>>> Does HP actually make hard drives?
    >>>>
    >>>>Not any more, and they never made notebook drives. However, HP buys OEM
    >>>>disks from different vendors and puts their sticker (and sometimes also
    >>>>their own firmware) on them.
    >>>>
    >>>>Benjamin


    Barry
    =====
    Home page
    http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og

  20. Re: Notebook HD

    On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:48:52 -0500, Ben Myers wrote:

    >That's the theory. In practice, there are some minor variations, especially in
    >the interpretation of SMART which is subsumed in the ATA command set.


    http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting

    >... Ben Myers
    >
    >On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:23:26 +0100, Benjamin Gawert wrote:
    >
    >>* craigm:
    >>
    >>> Possible reasons:
    >>>
    >>> Different manufactures have slightly different implementations of the
    >>> command set. The notebook may use some commands or settings that differ.

    >>
    >>Nope. The ATA command set ist standardized. There are no "slightly
    >>different implementations".
    >>
    >>Benjamin


    Barry
    =====
    Home page
    http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og

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