'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading Questions) - Hewlett Packard

This is a discussion on 'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading Questions) - Hewlett Packard ; Nothing like relying on good advice from folks who've 'been there, done that'. Regarding both your posts to the 3000 list, IS there an HP supported solution for replacing the 4GB internal LDEV1 with something that supports RAID (or at ...

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Thread: 'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading Questions)

  1. 'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading Questions)

    Nothing like relying on good advice from folks who've 'been there, done
    that'. Regarding both your posts to the 3000 list, IS there an HP
    supported solution for replacing the 4GB internal LDEV1 with something
    that supports RAID (or at least mirroring)? We currently have our
    production data in 'Jamaica' units, fully mirrored (Mirror/iX), but indeed
    I've been worried about the ancient LDEV1 ... enough that we do everything
    possible to NOT shutdown power. It has reached the point where I have
    concern that if the drive ever lost it's taste for power ... it might
    never spin up again and the thought of a RELOAD is not fun.

    We currently have our system on full HP Support.
    LDEV: 1; Type: ST34573WC; Size: 4.29Gb; Path: 10/4/24.6.0

    Any advice, specific hardware make/models, software for addressing the
    single LDEV1 situation would be appreciated.

    Thank you.

    ----------

    Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:51:52 -0800
    From: donna hofmeister
    Subject: Re: HP3000 Homesteading Questions

    ....... i'll as strongly as possible urge you to look at
    upgrading your disc. it's probably the one component most likely to
    fail on your box -- especially if you're still running internal 4 or
    8gb drives. if your drives have been in service for more than 8-10
    years (did you put in new disc to upgrade to 5.5 for y2k?), imo you're
    skating on thin ice! it's a matter of time before you'll be changing
    disc in a panic instead easily over some weekend. so ask your vendor
    -- do you have staff that can assist with a disk migration?

    ----------

    Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:17:23 -0600
    From: John Lee
    Subject: Re: HP3000 Homesteading Questions

    Superb advice from donna. I've been doing this for 12 years and the sites
    we support who have the smoothest operation do as donna suggests. They
    rarely have unscheduled downtime or emergencies.

    And one more word on old disc. If you're not RAIDed, you're not doing
    your homework. It's inexpensive and light years ahead of old internal SE
    SCSI disc.

    John Lee
    Vaske Computer Solutions

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Deane Bell; Computer Services Coordinator, Affiliate Assistant Professor
    The University of Washington Vmail : (206) 598-6009
    Medical Centers Pharmacy - ea151 TextPager: (206) 995-2720
    1959 N.E. Pacific Street, Box 356015 facsimile: (206) 598-4901
    Seattle, WA 98195-6015 U.S.A. internet : bell@u.washington.edu
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  2. Re: 'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading Questions)

    Deane,

    There are two fairly low cost solutions which could handle RAID for your
    3000.

    These would be the NIKE 20 and Autoraid 12H units, both of which connect
    via FWD SCSI.

    The NIKE 20 would require 2 FWD cards/connections to be available and
    the 12H one.

    Regards,
    Jack Connor

    -----Original Message-----
    From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    Behalf Of Deane Bell
    Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 1:06 PM
    To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: [HP3000-L] 'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading Questions)

    Nothing like relying on good advice from folks who've 'been there, done
    that'. Regarding both your posts to the 3000 list, IS there an HP
    supported solution for replacing the 4GB internal LDEV1 with something
    that supports RAID (or at least mirroring)? We currently have our
    production data in 'Jamaica' units, fully mirrored (Mirror/iX), but
    indeed I've been worried about the ancient LDEV1 ... enough that we do
    everything possible to NOT shutdown power. It has reached the point
    where I have concern that if the drive ever lost it's taste for power
    ..... it might never spin up again and the thought of a RELOAD is not fun.

    We currently have our system on full HP Support.
    LDEV: 1; Type: ST34573WC; Size: 4.29Gb; Path: 10/4/24.6.0

    Any advice, specific hardware make/models, software for addressing the
    single LDEV1 situation would be appreciated.

    Thank you.

    ----------

    Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:51:52 -0800
    From: donna hofmeister
    Subject: Re: HP3000 Homesteading Questions

    ........ i'll as strongly as possible urge you to look at upgrading your
    disc. it's probably the one component most likely to fail on your box
    -- especially if you're still running internal 4 or 8gb drives. if your
    drives have been in service for more than 8-10 years (did you put in new
    disc to upgrade to 5.5 for y2k?), imo you're skating on thin ice! it's
    a matter of time before you'll be changing disc in a panic instead
    easily over some weekend. so ask your vendor
    -- do you have staff that can assist with a disk migration?

    ----------

    Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:17:23 -0600
    From: John Lee
    Subject: Re: HP3000 Homesteading Questions

    Superb advice from donna. I've been doing this for 12 years and the
    sites we support who have the smoothest operation do as donna suggests.
    They rarely have unscheduled downtime or emergencies.

    And one more word on old disc. If you're not RAIDed, you're not doing
    your homework. It's inexpensive and light years ahead of old internal
    SE SCSI disc.

    John Lee
    Vaske Computer Solutions

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----
    Deane Bell; Computer Services Coordinator, Affiliate Assistant
    Professor
    The University of Washington Vmail : (206) 598-6009
    Medical Centers Pharmacy - ea151 TextPager: (206) 995-2720
    1959 N.E. Pacific Street, Box 356015 facsimile: (206) 598-4901
    Seattle, WA 98195-6015 U.S.A. internet :
    bell@u.washington.edu
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *

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  3. Re: 'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading Questions)

    On 11/26/07, Deane Bell wrote:
    > Nothing like relying on good advice from folks who've 'been there, done
    > that'. Regarding both your posts to the 3000 list, IS there an HP
    > supported solution for replacing the 4GB internal LDEV1 with something
    > that supports RAID (or at least mirroring)?



    I believe the VA7xxxx line of HP storage gear is bootable and so could
    be used for LDEV1 and whatever else you have in the SYSTEM_VOLUME_SET.
    On the used market, such devices are relatively cheap, have higher
    capacities than the AutoRAID and Nike arrays, and have higher
    performance as well. However, they do require fiber connections on
    your 3000, and so might run into issues with older versions of MPE.
    --
    "If hard work were such a wonderful thing, you'd think rich people
    would have kept it all for themselves" - Lane Kirkland

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  4. RE : [HP3000-L] 'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading Questions)

    Nice try ... however, please keep in mind that the VA7100 is an FC array.
    Therefore, either your 3000 supports native FC (fairly restrictive to the
    N-Class), or you have to bridge FC to FW ... which is not a low-cost
    solution.

    Christian

    > -----Message d'origine-----
    > De*: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] De la part
    > de Mark Landin
    > Envoyé*: lundi 26 novembre 2007 19:51
    > À*: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    > Objet*: Re: [HP3000-L] 'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading
    > Questions)
    >
    > On 11/26/07, Deane Bell wrote:
    > > Nothing like relying on good advice from folks who've 'been there, done
    > > that'. Regarding both your posts to the 3000 list, IS there an HP
    > > supported solution for replacing the 4GB internal LDEV1 with something
    > > that supports RAID (or at least mirroring)?

    >
    >
    > I believe the VA7xxxx line of HP storage gear is bootable and so could
    > be used for LDEV1 and whatever else you have in the SYSTEM_VOLUME_SET.
    > On the used market, such devices are relatively cheap, have higher
    > capacities than the AutoRAID and Nike arrays, and have higher
    > performance as well. However, they do require fiber connections on
    > your 3000, and so might run into issues with older versions of MPE.
    > --
    > "If hard work were such a wonderful thing, you'd think rich people
    > would have kept it all for themselves" - Lane Kirkland
    >
    > * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    > * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  5. Re: 'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading Questions)

    --- Mark Landin wrote:

    > I believe the VA7xxxx line of HP storage gear is bootable and so could
    > be used for LDEV1 and whatever else you have in the SYSTEM_VOLUME_SET.
    > On the used market, such devices are relatively cheap, have higher
    > capacities than the AutoRAID and Nike arrays, and have higher
    > performance as well. However, they do require fiber connections on
    > your 3000, and so might run into issues with older versions of MPE.


    The problem is not so much the version of MPE, but more importantly the model of HP.

    The older "NIO" 9x9 and earlier, do not support native fibre. The n-class boxes do.

    To "boot" from a VA7X, you would need the A5814A-003 fibre to scsi "brick".

    -Craig

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  6. Re: 'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading Questions)

    Craig is correct. And the fiber to scsi bridge defeats the purpose of the
    fiber array and may even compromise performance (certainly adds cost);
    hence, we've always used Nikes. If you plan to go to an A or N series in
    the near future, you might consider a VA array because as Mark notes, they
    are fast (when truly fiber) and have larger capacities, so you would
    benefit once you upgraded to a true fiber-capable server.

    John Lee



    At 12:00 PM 11/26/07 -0800, Craig Lalley wrote:
    >--- Mark Landin wrote:
    >
    > > I believe the VA7xxxx line of HP storage gear is bootable and so could
    > > be used for LDEV1 and whatever else you have in the SYSTEM_VOLUME_SET.
    > > On the used market, such devices are relatively cheap, have higher
    > > capacities than the AutoRAID and Nike arrays, and have higher
    > > performance as well. However, they do require fiber connections on
    > > your 3000, and so might run into issues with older versions of MPE.

    >
    >The problem is not so much the version of MPE, but more importantly the
    >model of HP.
    >
    >The older "NIO" 9x9 and earlier, do not support native fibre. The n-class
    >boxes do.
    >
    >To "boot" from a VA7X, you would need the A5814A-003 fibre to scsi "brick".
    >
    >-Craig
    >
    >* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    >* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
    >
    >
    >
    >--
    >No virus found in this incoming message.
    >Checked by AVG Free Edition.
    >Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.2/1143 - Release Date: 11/21/07
    >10:01 AM


    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  7. Re: 'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading Questions)

    To echo and summarize what's been said so far:

    It's possible - indeed feasible - to utilize hardware mirroring on ldev 1.

    The best solution is a mod20 or mod10. (the major difference between
    them being the total number of disk modules supported - 20 vs. 10,
    respectively).

    Next best would be Autoraid12h.

    Finally, it's possible to have hardware mirroring on ldev 1 with a
    va7xxx, but would require a costly HP hardware "brick" (as so
    eloquently described by Craig) if on a non A-class and non N-class 3k.

    Also, a mod10/20 works fine with a single FWSCSI card - although 2 is better.



    At 01:06 PM 2007-11-26, Deane Bell wrote:
    >Nothing like relying on good advice from folks who've 'been there,
    >done that'. Regarding both your posts to the 3000 list, IS there an
    >HP supported solution for replacing the 4GB internal LDEV1 with
    >something that supports RAID (or at least mirroring)? We currently
    >have our production data in 'Jamaica' units, fully mirrored
    >(Mirror/iX), but indeed I've been worried about the ancient LDEV1
    >... enough that we do everything possible to NOT shutdown power. It
    >has reached the point where I have concern that if the drive ever
    >lost it's taste for power ... it might never spin up again and the
    >thought of a RELOAD is not fun.
    >
    >We currently have our system on full HP Support.
    >LDEV: 1; Type: ST34573WC; Size: 4.29Gb; Path: 10/4/24.6.0
    >
    >Any advice, specific hardware make/models, software for addressing
    >the single LDEV1 situation would be appreciated.
    >
    >Thank you.
    >
    >----------
    >
    >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:51:52 -0800
    >From: donna hofmeister
    >Subject: Re: HP3000 Homesteading Questions
    >
    >...... i'll as strongly as possible urge you to look at
    >upgrading your disc. it's probably the one component most likely to
    >fail on your box -- especially if you're still running internal 4 or
    >8gb drives. if your drives have been in service for more than 8-10
    >years (did you put in new disc to upgrade to 5.5 for y2k?), imo you're
    >skating on thin ice! it's a matter of time before you'll be changing
    >disc in a panic instead easily over some weekend. so ask your vendor
    >-- do you have staff that can assist with a disk migration?
    >
    >----------
    >
    >Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:17:23 -0600
    >From: John Lee
    >Subject: Re: HP3000 Homesteading Questions
    >
    >Superb advice from donna. I've been doing this for 12 years and the
    >sites we support who have the smoothest operation do as donna
    >suggests. They rarely have unscheduled downtime or emergencies.
    >
    >And one more word on old disc. If you're not RAIDed, you're not
    >doing your homework. It's inexpensive and light years ahead of old
    >internal SE SCSI disc.
    >
    >John Lee
    >Vaske Computer Solutions
    >
    >----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    > Deane Bell; Computer Services Coordinator, Affiliate Assistant Professor
    > The University of Washington Vmail : (206) 598-6009
    > Medical Centers Pharmacy - ea151 TextPager: (206) 995-2720
    > 1959 N.E. Pacific Street, Box 356015 facsimile: (206) 598-4901
    > Seattle, WA 98195-6015 U.S.A. internet : bell@u.washington.edu
    >----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    >* To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    >* etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *
    >
    >
    >
    >--
    >No virus found in this incoming message.
    >Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database:
    >269.16.7/1151 - Release Date: 2007-11-25 4:24 PM


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Gilles Schipper
    GSA Inc.
    HP System Administration Specialists
    300 John Street, Box 87651 Thornhill, ON Canada L3T 7R4
    Voice: 905.889.3000 Fax: 905.889.3001
    email: gilles@gsainc.com web: http://www.gsainc.com
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


  8. Re: 'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading Questions)


    "John Lee" wrote in message
    news:5.2.1.1.1.20071126141005.02116b70@pop3.spaces tar.net...
    > Craig is correct. And the fiber to scsi bridge defeats the purpose of the
    > fiber array


    ?? Please expand. Using the A5814A-003 SCSI-FC router gives one access
    FC-SAN disk arrays. The main reason to use disk arrays is reliability /
    data robustness; the router doesn't 'defeat this purpose' by any means.

    > and may even compromise performance (certainly adds cost); hence, we've
    > always used Nikes.


    The routers can add latency to disk I/O so arguably could impact performance
    in some limited cases. However disk-arrays by their very nature tend to
    increase I/O latency. So anyone going from JBOD to any disk arrays are
    subject to possible performance degradation. Realize though that the router
    will not be the bottleneck -- it can operate at SCSI-ULTRA (20Mtransfers a
    second) speed which is 2x the rated speed of an NIO F/W SCSI (10Mt/sec).

    (Yes, routers are not free). . .

    Finally VAs, especially VA7110/7410 when properly configured and not
    overloaded, are much more capable than AutoRaid and Nike's. YMMV.

    Regards,

    Jim Hawkins
    MPE/iX I/O Architect



  9. Re: 'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading Questions)

    -----Original Message-----
    From: HP-3000 Systems Discussion [mailto:HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU] On
    Behalf Of Craig Lalley
    Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 2:00 PM
    To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU
    Subject: Re: 'Raiding' LDEV1 (Was: HP3000 Homesteading Questions)

    --- Mark Landin wrote:

    > I believe the VA7xxxx line of HP storage gear is bootable and so could
    > be used for LDEV1 and whatever else you have in the SYSTEM_VOLUME_SET.
    > On the used market, such devices are relatively cheap, have higher
    > capacities than the AutoRAID and Nike arrays, and have higher
    > performance as well. However, they do require fiber connections on
    > your 3000, and so might run into issues with older versions of MPE.


    The problem is not so much the version of MPE, but more importantly the
    model of HP.

    The older "NIO" 9x9 and earlier, do not support native fibre. The
    n-class boxes do.

    To "boot" from a VA7X, you would need the A5814A-003 fibre to scsi
    "brick".

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hmmm... this has possibilities for me.

    I would be interested in some quotes on a A5814A-003 as we already have
    a 4 terabyte storage array and some seriously aging hard drives I have
    been meaning to replace.

    Transitioning to the enterprise storage array would be an excellent path
    to an emulated 3000, assuming HP has any intention of ever letting that
    happen, and eliminate having to buy new hard drives that will be
    abandoned in a year or so.

    * To join/leave the list, search archives, change list settings, *
    * etc., please visit http://raven.utc.edu/archives/hp3000-l.html *


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