New HP 50g Questions - Hewlett Packard

This is a discussion on New HP 50g Questions - Hewlett Packard ; Hi, I hardly bought the HP 50g yesterday which is my first HP calculator, with the TI-89 Titanium being my close companion up to that point. So as a beginner to RPN and HP calculators, I have a few questions ...

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  1. New HP 50g Questions

    Hi,

    I hardly bought the HP 50g yesterday which is my first HP calculator,
    with the TI-89 Titanium being my close companion up to that point. So
    as a beginner to RPN and HP calculators, I have a few questions that
    hopefully arise from my ignorance and not the fault of the calculator
    (which I heard is marvelous at math).

    1. Why doesn't the HP integrate (x+1)^4 as 1/5*(x+1)^5 which is the
    textbook answer?
    2. How do I do a fourier series expansion? For example, expand x from
    [-pi,pi] to the 7th oder.
    3. I am confused as to how to use the series command. How do I expand
    ln(x)?
    4. The HP does not symbolically compute integral of sin(x)^3/x^3 from
    0 to infinity. This is understandable because I don't think my TI can
    do it either. However, I cannot get a numerical answer from the HP. I
    get an overflow message. The answer is supposed to be 3*pi/8.
    5. How do I use the with bar in RPN mode? For example, how would I
    compute x+1|x=3? Also, how do I use the with bar with inequalities?
    For example, sin(x)|x>0?
    6. How do I solve sin(x)=1 (I know how to do that using the solve
    command), but how do I evaluate it for various integers? Perhaps this
    question links with the above question.
    7. How do I use the solve command to solve multiple non-linear
    equations. For example, x^2-2x+y=3 and 4x-y=1.
    8. I was experimenting with the step-by-step mode for the integral 1/
    root(x^2-1), but it made no sense. It just said rational fraction for
    most of the integrals or square root, but did not show any
    substitution or any techniques. It is not a major problem, but I was
    just wondering.
    9. Why does 1/(x-1) show a vertical line at asymptote x=1 in the
    graph. The 89 omits this so is there a way to omit it from the graph
    on the HP? This is not a major issue.
    10. Is there a simple way to graph vertical lines such as x=2? I mean
    without using any "tricks" such as 9E999(x-2).
    11. How do I test equalities? For example, how do I know if 1=2 or
    (x^2-1)/(x-1)=x+1 are true statements or false statements?
    12. Do I have the latest ROM version out of the box? I believe so
    because the 50g is the latest HP calculator and the last ROM was
    released in 2006 which is when the HP was released, correct? I have
    not yet opened the CD so I don't know if it has an updator or anything
    with it that can tell me.

    Thanks in advance! I hope to become a skilled HP user like you!


  2. Re: New HP 50g Questions

    Graywolf wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I hardly bought the HP 50g yesterday which is my first HP calculator,
    > with the TI-89 Titanium being my close companion up to that point. So
    > as a beginner to RPN and HP calculators, I have a few questions that
    > hopefully arise from my ignorance and not the fault of the calculator
    > (which I heard is marvelous at math).

    You could start by getting the Advanced User Manual and ... hum...
    reading it ?

  3. Re: New HP 50g Questions

    On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 00:42:23 -0000, Graywolf
    wrote:

    >Hi,
    >
    >I hardly bought the HP 50g yesterday which is my first HP calculator,
    >with the TI-89 Titanium being my close companion up to that point.


    Crazy?...

    P.Z

  4. Re: New HP 50g Questions

    On Jun 17, 7:42 pm, Graywolf wrote:
    > Hi,
    >I have a few questions that
    > hopefully arise from my ignorance and not the fault of the calculator
    > (which I heard is marvelous at math).


    Gene: The other thing you should do is go to HP's website and download
    the PDF learning modules. There are over 50 of them for the 50g and
    they will address some of these questions. Others will require more
    work on your part to come up with answers and the AUR is a good point
    (as JYA said). It too is available on HP's website. Good luck!

    Link to learning modules:

    Zip file containing all 50 modules
    http://h20331.www2.hp.com/Hpsub/down...0gPDFfiles.zip

    Link to page showing each module:
    http://h20331.www2.hp.com/hpsub/cach...0-225-121.html

    Link to AUR:

    http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bc/docs/su.../c00554621.pdf


  5. Re: New HP 50g Questions

    On 17 jun, 20:42, Graywolf wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I hardly bought the HP 50g yesterday which is my first HP calculator,
    > with the TI-89 Titanium being my close companion up to that point. So
    > as a beginner to RPN and HP calculators, I have a few questions that
    > hopefully arise from my ignorance and not the fault of the calculator
    > (which I heard is marvelous at math).
    >
    > 1. Why doesn't the HP integrate (x+1)^4 as 1/5*(x+1)^5 which is the
    > textbook answer?


    Only a matter of algebraic handling

    > 2. How do I do a fourier series expansion? For example, expand x from
    > [-pi,pi] to the 7th oder.


    Read the advanced manual

    > 3. I am confused as to how to use the series command. How do I expand
    > ln(x)?


    Read the advanced manual

    > 4. The HP does not symbolically compute integral of sin(x)^3/x^3 from
    > 0 to infinity. This is understandable because I don't think my TI can
    > do it either. However, I cannot get a numerical answer from the HP. I
    > get an overflow message. The answer is supposed to be 3*pi/8.


    The TI uses integration tables. I really don't know how to integrate
    this directly in the HP.

    > 5. How do I use the with bar in RPN mode? For example, how would I
    > compute x+1|x=3? Also, how do I use the with bar with inequalities?
    > For example, sin(x)|x>0?


    Where (the bar) needs { var replacement }

    Example:
    2: x+1
    1: {x 3}

    For inequalities read about ASSIGN

    > 6. How do I solve sin(x)=1 (I know how to do that using the solve
    > command), but how do I evaluate it for various integers? Perhaps this
    > question links with the above question.


    Try with TABVAL

    > 7. How do I use the solve command to solve multiple non-linear
    > equations. For example, x^2-2x+y=3 and 4x-y=1.


    LINSOLVE

    > 8. I was experimenting with the step-by-step mode for the integral 1/
    > root(x^2-1), but it made no sense. It just said rational fraction for
    > most of the integrals or square root, but did not show any
    > substitution or any techniques. It is not a major problem, but I was
    > just wondering.


    uhmmm...

    > 9. Why does 1/(x-1) show a vertical line at asymptote x=1 in the
    > graph. The 89 omits this so is there a way to omit it from the graph
    > on the HP? This is not a major issue.


    uhmmm... you can turn off the lines between points

    > 10. Is there a simple way to graph vertical lines such as x=2? I mean
    > without using any "tricks" such as 9E999(x-2).


    infinite?

    > 11. How do I test equalities? For example, how do I know if 1=2 or
    > (x^2-1)/(x-1)=x+1 are true statements or false statements?


    Learn some UserRPL, its very easy do a command to do that with SOLVE,
    etc

    > 12. Do I have the latest ROM version out of the box? I believe so
    > because the 50g is the latest HP calculator and the last ROM was
    > released in 2006 which is when the HP was released, correct? I have
    > not yet opened the CD so I don't know if it has an updator or anything
    > with it that can tell me.


    ....manual

    >
    > Thanks in advance! I hope to become a skilled HP user like you!




  6. Re: New HP 50g Questions

    Oh. OK. I will take a look at the advance manual and the modules.

    Thanks guys.


  7. Re: New HP 50g Questions - Some answered!

    Graywolf wrote:

    > I hardly bought the HP 50g yesterday which is my first HP calculator,


    Welcome aboard I have the HP48 (the HP50's older brother), but I'll
    try to answer some of your questions.

    > 1. Why doesn't the HP integrate (x+1)^4 as 1/5*(x+1)^5 which is the
    > textbook answer?


    1) The HP is giving you the indefinite integral x^5/5+x^4+2x^3+2x^2+x+C.
    The books answer is only true if you know that C=1/5.

    2) The HP50 probably doesn't reduce the answer to its simplest terms.

    > 4. The HP does not symbolically compute integral of sin(x)^3/x^3 from
    > 0 to infinity.


    Machines in general have a hard time with concepts like infinity.

    > This is understandable because I don't think my TI can
    > do it either. However, I cannot get a numerical answer from the HP. I
    > get an overflow message. The answer is supposed to be 3*pi/8.


    Can the TI do this? Mathematica gives for the indefinite integral an
    algebraic with six terms, two of which are simpler integrals (I won't
    take the time to write it out here). The first four have 8x as the
    denominator, so they would be undefined at zero. All in all, a difficult
    integral for even a human to solve. See:

    http://integrals.wolfram.com/index.jsp

    > 9. Why does 1/(x-1) show a vertical line at asymptote x=1 in the
    > graph. The 89 omits this so is there a way to omit it from the graph
    > on the HP? This is not a major issue.


    It's connecting the dots. Try -31 SF to stop this behavior.

    > 10. Is there a simple way to graph vertical lines such as x=2? I mean
    > without using any "tricks" such as 9E999(x-2).


    Not that I know of. Why would you need to do that?

    > 11. How do I test equalities? For example, how do I know if 1=2 or
    > (x^2-1)/(x-1)=x+1 are true statements or false statements?


    It's easy to test /numerical/ equalities. Just enter them on the command
    line: '1==2' EVAL (note the double equals sign). Symbolic equalities
    are a different matter, the HP will compare'(x^2-1)/(x-1)' to 'x+1' and
    come up with FALSE because they aren't same algebraic (even though if
    reduced they would be).

  8. Re: New HP 50g Questions - Some answered!

    Answering:

    > 10. Is there a simple way to graph vertical lines such as x=2?
    > I mean without using any "tricks" such as 9E999(x-2).


    Well, for a "Function" type plot, that's the *only* way,
    because of the inherent nature of how a "Function" plot is made --
    you call the function to get *one* function value (vertical coordinate)
    for each *horizontal* coordinate value; any other points
    can be filled in only by interpolation, with flag -31 cleared.

    When you draw x=5 yourself on graph paper, you in fact
    mentally "cheat" this process by swapping dependent and
    independent variable; if you want to do the same on the calculator,
    you could plot a function having constant value 2,
    then turn the calculator sideways

    The way you mention, and other useless ways, can be reviewed at:
    http://groups.google.com/group/comp....4f8ec26ed96976

    "When you have a simple pencil and paper exercise,
    don't complicate it with a calculator --
    use the pencil and paper"

    [r->] [OFF]

  9. Re: New HP 50g Questions - Some answered!

    Thank you so much guys!

    I finished looking at the modules and they answered some of my
    questions. I have uet to study the advance user manual.

    Looks like questions: 1 (sorry I didn't realize obviously that the HP
    expanded and integrated and did not assume 1/5 as the constant C), 4
    (I found this problem in a book of integration tables and I know that
    this is tough for any calculator and possibly human beings), 5 (I know
    now, but I think quickly switching to Algebraic mode might be easier
    and I have yet to research ASSIGN), 6 (I have yet to try TABVAL), 9 (I
    now know, but I don't think it will make much of a difference if I
    leave the line on), 10 (I was just curious...) are all answered.

    Now I just have to solve the other problems by reading the manual.


  10. Re: New HP 50g Questions - Some answered!

    Graywolf wrote:

    > Looks like questions: 1 (sorry I didn't realize obviously that the HP
    > expanded and integrated and did not assume 1/5 as the constant C)

    in my opinion, you do *NOT* want the calculator to assume what the
    constant C could be, as there are an infinity of solutions.

  11. Re: New HP 50g Questions

    On Jun 17, 6:42 pm, Graywolf wrote:
    > 4. The HP does not symbolically compute integral of sin(x)^3/x^3 from
    > 0 to infinity. This is understandable because I don't think my TI can
    > do it either. However, I cannot get a numerical answer from the HP. I
    > get an overflow message. The answer is supposed to be 3*pi/8.


    Actually I find that my 48 integrates this with no problem. The "S" in
    the following is the integration symbol.

    Set the calc for 5-6 digits of resolution: 5 SCI

    'S(0,100,SIN(X)^3/X^3,X)' ====> 1.17810 (3*PI/8)

    Note that as the upper limit gets larger it has less and less effect
    on the final answer, so you don't need a very large upper limit for
    the calculation.



  12. Re: New HP 50g Questions

    On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 13:38:11 +0200, Damir wrote:

    >On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 04:15:49 -0700, rbrt_ryn
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Jun 17, 6:42 pm, Graywolf wrote:
    >>> 4. The HP does not symbolically compute integral of sin(x)^3/x^3 from
    >>> 0 to infinity. This is understandable because I don't think my TI can
    >>> do it either. However, I cannot get a numerical answer from the HP. I
    >>> get an overflow message. The answer is supposed to be 3*pi/8.

    >>
    >>Actually I find that my 48 integrates this with no problem. The "S" in
    >>the following is the integration symbol.
    >>
    >>Set the calc for 5-6 digits of resolution: 5 SCI
    >>
    >>'S(0,100,SIN(X)^3/X^3,X)' ====> 1.17810 (3*PI/8)
    >>
    >>Note that as the upper limit gets larger it has less and less effect
    >>on the final answer, so you don't need a very large upper limit for
    >>the calculation.
    >>

    >
    >HP50G in Approximate mode and with format number Fix 3:
    >'S(0,°°,SIN(X)^3/X^3,X)' => 1.178 in about 20s.
    >
    >Damir


  13. Re: New HP 50g Questions

    On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 04:15:49 -0700, rbrt_ryn
    wrote:

    >On Jun 17, 6:42 pm, Graywolf wrote:
    >> 4. The HP does not symbolically compute integral of sin(x)^3/x^3 from
    >> 0 to infinity. This is understandable because I don't think my TI can
    >> do it either. However, I cannot get a numerical answer from the HP. I
    >> get an overflow message. The answer is supposed to be 3*pi/8.

    >
    >Actually I find that my 48 integrates this with no problem. The "S" in
    >the following is the integration symbol.
    >
    >Set the calc for 5-6 digits of resolution: 5 SCI
    >
    >'S(0,100,SIN(X)^3/X^3,X)' ====> 1.17810 (3*PI/8)
    >
    >Note that as the upper limit gets larger it has less and less effect
    >on the final answer, so you don't need a very large upper limit for
    >the calculation.
    >


    HP50G in Approximate mode and with format number Fix 3:
    'S(0,°°,SIN(X)^3/X^3,X)' => 1.178 in about 20s.

    Damir

  14. Re: New HP 50g Questions

    OK. I've looked a little bit through the manual. Here are some
    questions I posted on the HP board.

    So, I bought an HP 50g recently and I have only had experiences with
    a TI-89 Titanium, never an HP calculator. So, naturally I have a few
    questions:

    1. How do I solve a^3+a*b^2=30 and b^3+b*a^2=90? The answer is 3^(1/3)
    and 3*3^(1/3). The 89 can solve this easily.

    2. How do I solve (n-23)!23!=(n-32)!32!, not graphically, but
    numerically for integer values greater than 32? The answer is 55 and
    the 89 can solve this using nSolve.

    3. How do I solve 2007^(1/a)*2007^(1/b)=2007^(1/9) for a and b with n
    or c being constants? That is, how can I get a dependent solution
    where a and b will be some function of another variable. The 89 can do
    this.

    4. How do I symbolically solve log(x_2)/log(2x_4)=log(4x_8)/
    log(8x_16)? The answers are 1/16 and 2. The 89 can do this easily.

    5. I solve sin(x)=1 on the HP and get answers in terms of n
    (integers), but how do I quickly evaluate the asnwer for variuos
    values of n?

    6. In solving sin(x)=1, how do I restrict the domain to [0,2*pi)?

    7. How do I test if equalities or inequalities are true or false? That
    is, (x^2-1)/(x-1)=x+1 (true or false?), sin(x)=cos(pi/2-x) (true or
    false?), 1>2 (true or false?).

    Thank you.


  15. Re: New HP 50g Questions

    Also is there a program that will find a regression line for squares,
    cubes, etc. for the HP 50g?


  16. Re: New HP 50g Questions

    On Jun 19, 6:00 pm, Graywolf wrote:
    > Also is there a program that will find a regression line for squares,
    > cubes, etc. for the HP 50g?


    Go to:

    www.hpcalc.org

    and do a search.


  17. Re: New HP 50g Questions

    I cannot find programs for the 50g...


  18. Re: New HP 50g Questions

    On 20 Giu, 01:05, Graywolf wrote:
    > I cannot find programs for the 50g...


    Hi Graywolf / Mayur.
    Go to hpcalc.org, do the search and you'll get (hopefully) a list of
    programs.
    Then, on top of the page, just under the HPcalc.org logo, between the
    search string box and the [SEARCH] button, there's a row of possible
    flags to be checked - just check the brand new "49/50" one and voilą!
    You'll filter the search results for the 49/50 series (however
    consider that 49 and 50 are the same kind of machine and can run
    almost the same programs, except for those SysRPL programs who use
    unsupported entry points or other rare exceptions).
    Hope this helps.
    Best regards.
    Giancarlo


  19. Re: New HP 50g Questions - compatibility issues

    On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 01:57:32 -0500:

    > 49 and 50 are the same kind of machine and can run
    > almost the same programs, except for those SysRPL programs
    > which use unsupported entry points or other rare exceptions.


    I have the same ROM in 49G, 49G+, and 50G,
    so the only difference is in hardware,
    at a level not dealt with by any but the most rare program.

    The worst "compatibility offenders" are those programs
    which write directly on the display screen,
    and assume the larger screen size of the 49G+/50G,
    which might crash trying to modify screen memory
    beyond its actual boundary in the original 49G
    or the current 48gii/48gs (having smaller screens);
    an old 49G program might also not bother
    to use the available extra screen rows
    (even Nosy doesn't use them),
    but this is unlikely to be harmful.

    Neither of the above screen size issues
    affects 49G+ vs. 50G, which have the same screen size;
    the worst problem I've ever seen in going from 49G+ to 50G
    is forgetting that flag -78 now means something in the 50G
    (it selects using the Serial port instead of USB).

    I suppose that a battery voltage tester might be
    one of those rare exceptions; otherwise the number of batteries
    also doesn't tend to enter significantly into programming.

    [r->] [OFF]

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