Civility towards others on this site - Hewlett Packard

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  1. Civility towards others on this site

    Question: As a physicist and a classical guitarist, I also belong to
    a Classical Guitar internet group. There are restrictions as to using
    foul lanuage and using racial slurs on the Classical Guitar site. The
    use of racial slurs or foul lanuage (such as f... you) is grounds for
    blocking that person from participating in discussion on the Classical
    Guitar site. Is there such a rule on this site ???

    I realize that censorship versus freedom of expression is a debatable
    subject. Whether we should should be civil towards each other, as we
    define it, is also debatable; But the definition of civility as you
    see it is not the question. The question is are there rules concering
    the use of foul lanuage on this site? It is assumed most people know
    what is foul lanuage. (???)

    We all have the freedom of limited speech, as suporters of Imus have
    pointed out. Equally valid, we all have the freedom of chosing which
    'radio station' meets our personal sense of civility. It is a matter
    of choice concerning who you chose to associate with.


  2. Re: Civility towards others on this site

    On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 08:22:15 -0500, Beauzeau wrote:

    > The use of racial slurs or foul lanuage (such as f... you) is grounds for
    > blocking that person from participating in discussion on the Classical
    > Guitar site. Is there such a rule on this site ???


    This is not a "site," and is not managed (nor manageable),
    but is an unmoderated "usenet" newsgroup,
    relying on a distributed peer system designed against censorship
    (message "cancels" have generally been disregarded since
    some group used them massively to attempt to suppress criticism);
    the only thing preventing distribution of postings would be
    any filters or monitorings at various servers,
    either at points of injection, pass-thru, or destination where read
    (and finally by individual end users), but there are many distributed,
    interconnected peer servers, so there can be no central control.

    > I realize that censorship versus freedom of expression is a debatable
    > subject. Whether we should should be civil towards each other, as we
    > define it, is also debatable; But the definition of civility as you
    > see it is not the question. The question is are there rules concering
    > the use of foul lanuage on this site? It is assumed most people know
    > what is foul lanuage. (???)
    >
    > We all have the freedom of limited speech, as suporters of Imus have
    > pointed out. Equally valid, we all have the freedom of chosing which
    > 'radio station' meets our personal sense of civility. It is a matter
    > of choice concerning who you chose to associate with.


    Everyone has choice of personal behavior, of response, and of association.

    It's the same issue as besets the entire world in all its relationships
    and interactions between people(s); we call it a result of
    "group consciousness," however coherent or fractured,
    and approach it from inner levels of awareness,
    which we find, through statistical observation,
    to be capable of projection to the environment
    through large group practices of measurable coherence
    and effects in society, as well as distinctly felt
    individual benefit.

    Best wishes from http://www.mum.edu
    and http://www.maharishischooliowa.org

  3. Re: Civility towards others on this site

    Beauzeau wrote:
    > Question: As a physicist and a classical guitarist, I also belong to
    > a Classical Guitar internet group. There are restrictions as to using
    > foul lanuage and using racial slurs on the Classical Guitar site. The
    > use of racial slurs or foul lanuage (such as f... you) is grounds for
    > blocking that person from participating in discussion on the Classical
    > Guitar site. Is there such a rule on this site ???


    The answer is complex and has to do with the history of the medium. I
    will give it EXTREMELY short shrift here, as this is completely off topic:

    Contrary to what may appear on the surface, this isn't a "site". It's a
    USENET newsgroup. USENET predates the Internet and the Web -- it was
    part of ARPANET, and like many media from that era, was designed as a
    medium to be used mostly by working scientists and students and
    technicians, in a trusted environment, with no general access to the
    outside world. It has no built-in mechanisms to prevent abuse, and
    therefore when the general public first obtained access to it, the
    quality of discourse was seen to drop precipitously. Google for "The
    September that Never Ended" for more explanation. Also, perhaps, read
    wikipedia on the subject of USENET.

    If you are using a web-based interface to read USENET, like Google
    Groups, consider using a "real" USENET client -- they usually offer more
    control.

    In any case, USENET groups have charters. Posts to the group should
    comply with the charter of the group. The charter usually mentions
    approved topics, but not approved posting styles or behaviors. However,
    a group can either be moderated (post have to be approved by a
    moderator), or not; and if the group is not moderated when it is
    started, it cannot be made to be moderated later, except under
    extraordinary circumstances.

    This group is not moderated. Therefore there are only the usual social
    constraints that apply to all human communication, minus all the ones
    with "teeth" -- physical intimidation doesn't work, and threats always
    backfire. The most extreme thing you can really do is to ignore the
    offenders, which most USENET clients provide support for in the form of
    a "killfile" or "scorefile" or both.

    Just as no one owns the Internet, and therefore no person can
    permanently be blocked from access to it, no one owns USENET, and
    therefore even the most annoying people have access to it. But you
    don't have to listen to them!

    > I realize that censorship versus freedom of expression is a debatable
    > subject. Whether we should should be civil towards each other, as we
    > define it, is also debatable; But the definition of civility as you
    > see it is not the question. The question is are there rules concering
    > the use of foul lanuage on this site? It is assumed most people know
    > what is foul lanuage. (???)


    "Eye of the beholder", etc. USENET is international and lawless. Like
    any anarchy, it's unstable, but with effort and good will, many portions
    of it defy entropy, like ours here!

    > We all have the freedom of limited speech, as suporters of Imus have
    > pointed out. Equally valid, we all have the freedom of chosing which
    > 'radio station' meets our personal sense of civility. It is a matter
    > of choice concerning who you chose to associate with.


    Keep in mind your audience does not all (or even mostly?) live in the
    USA, when making topical references...

    I like USENET. It's a shadow of its former self, with jerks and
    malicious entities aplenty. It's not the only game in town, as it once
    was. But its still alive, still attracting new users, some of whom are
    of good will; and it still offers an environment unlike any other. It's
    like a big city. Like all the big cities of the world, ever!


    --
    Dave "Have fun!" Boyd
    "That's sucker talk."
    -- Raven, _This_Gun_For_Hire_, Universal, 1942

  4. Re: Civility towards others on this site

    On Apr 18, 6:22 am, Beauzeau wrote:
    > Question: As a physicist and a classical guitarist, I also belong to
    > a Classical Guitar internet group. There are restrictions as to using
    > foul lanuage and using racial slurs on the Classical Guitar site. The
    > use of racial slurs or foul lanuage (such as f... you) is grounds for
    > blocking that person from participating in discussion on the Classical
    > Guitar site. Is there such a rule on this site ???


    Regarding your personal problem, you seem to be on the wrong forum.
    The topic here is using HP calculators.


  5. Re: Civility towards others on this site

    On 18 Apr., 15:22, Beauzeau wrote:
    > Question: As a physicist and a classical guitarist, I also belong to
    > a Classical Guitar internet group. There are restrictions as to using
    > foul lanuage and using racial slurs on the Classical Guitar site. The
    > use of racial slurs or foul lanuage (such as f... you) is grounds for
    > blocking that person from participating in discussion on the Classical
    > Guitar site. Is there such a rule on this site ???
    >
    > I realize that censorship versus freedom of expression is a debatable
    > subject. Whether we should should be civil towards each other, as we
    > define it, is also debatable; But the definition of civility as you
    > see it is not the question. The question is are there rules concering
    > the use of foul lanuage on this site? It is assumed most people know
    > what is foul lanuage. (???)
    >
    > We all have the freedom of limited speech, as suporters of Imus have
    > pointed out. Equally valid, we all have the freedom of chosing which
    > 'radio station' meets our personal sense of civility. It is a matter
    > of choice concerning who you chose to associate with.


    BOZO,

    Do you not have anything better to do than to surf the web trying to
    impose your politically correct garbage on the rest of society? This
    type of behaviour has contributed greatly, and continues to contribute
    greatly, to the mess the USA is in today. I personally find your
    ideas offensive and if you can not put these deep in some closet where
    they belong, then please, please find some other group to enlighten.
    On the other hand, if you can make the transition to normalcy, just
    while on this site if necessary, feel free to enter the fray here. My
    current topic of interest is Spherical Triangles.

    Charles A. Huffer


  6. Re: Civility towards others on this site

    On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:47:50 -0500, Charles wrote:

    > My current topic of interest is Spherical Triangles.


    Then why stray so far off topic,
    and become an epitome of what you criticize
    (which the criticized post wasn't)?

    The person you lashed out against
    has been politely asking a few things for help with HP50
    over a three month period,
    and has as much right to ask about netiquette as anyone else.

    I wonder, if we were all on one campus,
    whether we'd have rampages like Virginia Tech going on;
    perhaps newsgroups explicitly chartered for venting spleen
    could supplement the traditional gym and boxing gear,
    to help relieve the unfortunate pressures built up within,
    if no other way is known.

    -[ ]-

  7. Re: Civility towards others on this site

    On 19 Apr., 09:13, "John H Meyers" wrote:
    > On Wed, 18 Apr 2007 18:47:50 -0500, Charles wrote:
    > > My current topic of interest is Spherical Triangles.

    >
    > Then why stray so far off topic,
    > and become an epitome of what you criticize
    > (which the criticized post wasn't)?
    >
    > The person you lashed out against
    > has been politely asking a few things for help with HP50
    > over a three month period,
    > and has as much right to ask about netiquette as anyone else.
    >
    > I wonder, if we were all on one campus,
    > whether we'd have rampages like Virginia Tech going on;
    > perhaps newsgroups explicitly chartered for venting spleen
    > could supplement the traditional gym and boxing gear,
    > to help relieve the unfortunate pressures built up within,
    > if no other way is known.
    >
    > -[ ]-


    John,

    I read BOZO's question profile and read the questions he has submitted
    the past few months.

    What started out as 'feel good legislation', hate crime legislation,
    has mutated into
    a monster. Hate speech laws, its child, has become a means of
    suppressing anything with
    which you do not agree. It has become international. Many countries
    now have laws with prison sentences
    for denying the Holocaust. France has just widened its law to include
    the Armenian Genocide by the Turks. Turkey has responded with
    forceful comments. This is thought crime legislation. Has BOZO not
    read the book '1984'?

    Concerning Virginia Tech, if just a few with concealed weapons permits
    had been permitted to have their weapons with them, far fewer would
    have died. The perpetrator would have quickly been as full of holes
    as a Swiss Cheese. Instead, 'gun free' Virginia Tech, Columbine and
    other such places make the students and faculty sitting ducks. Also,
    police, by U. S. Supreme Court decision, are not required to protect
    the public. They mostly come and fill out the paperwork after
    something happens.

    John, you are one of the most knowledgeable contributors to this
    site. You share that knowledge willingly and I wish to thank you for
    your effort in this regard. This comment is also off topic but I
    should have written it before now.

    Charles A. Huffer


  8. Re: Civility towards others on this site

    That seems to me to be way overextending a "slippery slope" notion,
    to such extent that any behavioral conventions and rules
    are totally rejected (how many apply that to their own children,
    and to letting any local gangs or drug dealers just have their sway?)

    A collection of harmonious people doesn't have so much trouble
    with this, even naturally settling into mutually respected norms,
    but when there is so much disharmony, no amount of rules or force
    can stifle the built-up pressures; the qualities of inner lives
    determine the overall tone of the society in some inevitable pattern,
    sort of like a "thermodynamics of human consciousness."

    Arms debates, ranging from personal to international,
    also fall into this same framework, but the local collisions
    of one randomly moving molecule with another
    are usually what dominate the discussion,
    rather than the most comprehensive collective perspective,
    to see the pattern of the whole,
    and how to influence it towards the greatest harmony for all.

    Thank you for your kind remarks, and best wishes.

  9. Re: Civility towards others on this site

    On Apr 19, 9:53 am, "John H Meyers" wrote:
    > That seems to me to be way overextending a "slippery slope" notion,
    > to such extent that any behavioral conventions and rules
    > are totally rejected (how many apply that to their own children,
    > and to letting any local gangs or drug dealers just have their sway?)
    >
    > A collection of harmonious people doesn't have so much trouble
    > with this, even naturally settling into mutually respected norms,
    > but when there is so much disharmony, no amount of rules or force
    > can stifle the built-up pressures; the qualities of inner lives
    > determine the overall tone of the society in some inevitable pattern,
    > sort of like a "thermodynamics of human consciousness."
    >
    > Arms debates, ranging from personal to international,
    > also fall into this same framework, but the local collisions
    > of one randomly moving molecule with another
    > are usually what dominate the discussion,
    > rather than the most comprehensive collective perspective,
    > to see the pattern of the whole,
    > and how to influence it towards the greatest harmony for all.
    >
    > Thank you for your kind remarks, and best wishes.


    Well. This is great. A group dedicated to the nerdish pursuit of
    excellence in Hp48/9/50/x programs has a debate about social values.
    The "this is great" comment is not intended as sarcasm. Being an
    idealist, I avoid sarcasm as much as I can, albeit without 100%
    success
    Taking Beauzeau's comments at face value:
    This group applies no censorship. If content offends you:
    If you are a member in good standing*, either flame the offending
    poster, or ignore it. Think ****tail party -- just move on to the next
    question.
    If you are a minor* member, keep quiet, for your own good, or else:
    If you are a minor* member and can't keep quiet, post only closely
    reasoned, objective, attractive discourse. If you cannot do this, your
    posts will be as a stone dropped into a well: there is a splash, and
    ripples, but no lasting effect.

    *good standing: have posted information that the readers find useful.
    This is a very broad but not all-inclusive category. A single ill-
    reasoned flame can cancel the effect of numerous good posts.

    *minor: list reader, no enough technical savvy to provide solutions,
    but have posted interesting questions. This includes naive but
    unassuming posts. "I can't figure out this RPN stuff -- HELP" will get
    some useful info. "This F**ing HP-50 is useless and I hate it' will
    not.

    Note: the author is in the "minor" category. Caveat lector.
    --Irl


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